The Great Fairy Fountain Research Thread

[Fuujin]

If it weren't for Jordan I'd be getting ***** by Zelda. Fox vs Zelda annoys my life and he is good at getting dtilts locks ughhhh.

Rather you're bad at escaping D tilt locks.
Fox ***** Zelda, very very very hard.

 

[Kisamealex3]

Rather you're bad at escaping D tilt locks.

Most people are.

Fox ***** Zelda, very very very hard.

And Zelda likes it.

 

[WickedDeceit]

Rather you're bad at escaping D tilt locks.
Fox ***** Zelda, very very very hard.

I have to disagree. Fox is fast, hoppy, and annoying, but Zelda has fun chasing after and tricking him. Most of her ground options outrange his (esp Dtilt and jab), and his aerials are so non-disjointed I trade lightning kicks often. Just dont jump into his Fair.

At what percentages/what kind of spacing? At the distances you can fastfall dair and force a hard landing, you'll get dair's landing lag and be at a frame disadvantage.

I'm not saying these dair > bair setups don't work, because I know they do. But they aren't guaranteed...... it's mostly other people's poor reaction time/overestimation of dair's hitstun. =X That's my take based on available frame data and some initial testing.

This usually works for me at higher percentages, >90-100%.
The spacing isnt really that difficult to imagine... if you're above your opponent with the proper distance to space a Dair, do it. This could happen if you're falling from above and your opponent is in the air (Dair then DI away from them to the side a little bit), or if you double jump over them. I actually get it more often by full-hopping a Dair then falling to their other side with a Bair.

Argument even though its not "guaranteed": I know there's frame disadvantages and blah blah, but whatever. This works very often because the hard landing limits options. The opponent either misses the tech, which they usually do because its so unexpected; they tech in place, which usually means they're right in my spacing after I land; or they tech and roll out of the way, which is fine with me as well.


We're talking about Brawl here, nothing is guaranteed.

 

[KayLo!]

Oh, nevermind. When you said "force a hard landing," I thought you meant...... force a hard landing, which as far as I know only happens on aerial opponents or possibly at very specific percentages. Grounded opponents either flinch or pop into the air (like with dtilt).

Completely different than putting someone in a position to tech.

EDIT: Also, when you do truly force a hard landing..... like I said, you'll get dair's landing lag. Anyone who gets hit with a bair after that must be ********, because the disadvantage for Zelda is visibly large. All they have to do is hold the shield button lol.

 

[Fuujin]

Zelda...chasing...fun...Fox...

http://www.box.net/shared/static/ogrsiqd4wg.jpg
wat is this I dont even...
Stuff like this just leaves me with so many questions...
It's like almost every Zelda her is stuck in 2008.
Who are the people you guys play against?
I just can't comprehend where some of you get opinions from...

 

[WickedDeceit]

I dont really care about a graphic based solely on groundspeed thanks for the pic though.

 

[Kisamealex3]

I dont really care about a graphic based solely on groundspeed thanks for the pic though.

I'm going to be honest, I agree with Fuujin when he insists that the Fox matchup is bad (though he exaggerates when he says 'very very very hard').

Zelda has ner approaching options. If a Fox camps and plays smart defensively, then Zelda will lose.

And if you disagree, all I can really say is that the Foxes you play must like approaching. It's not as easy as "lets chase the 'hoppy' Fox and trade with kicks."

Just my 2 cents.

 

[WickedDeceit]

Fair enough.

I'm definitely not one to say that any matchup is easy with Zelda, but the "very, very, very hard" mindset is a gross overexaggeration and isn't productive at all imo. Fox's tend to hop, which means that almost every time they're in the air they're vulnerable. Run in, approach, shield, short hop, etc, do what it takes to get in.

And, yes, Zelda's groundspeed is horrible, however she also has her fall speed and air maneuverabliity to consider, and with her air dodge and short hop - and range - she does have options.

EDIT: Oh, and "fun" is subjective. I think that Snake and MK matchups are fun, regardless of difficulty.

 

[KayLo!]

Her fall speed makes her slower actually. She too floaty.

 

[Fuujin]

I'm going to be honest, I agree with Fuujin when he insists that the Fox matchup is bad (though he exaggerates when he says 'very very very hard').

Zelda has ner approaching options. If a Fox camps and plays smart defensively, then Zelda will lose.

And if you disagree, all I can really say is that the Foxes you play must like approaching. It's not as easy as "lets chase the 'hoppy' Fox and trade with kicks."

Just my 2 cents.

Well I may have added a few very but Zelda can't even catch characters like Mario when they run away, no way in hell does she have fun chasing fox.
One of Fox's major weaknesses is that most of his moves are punishable on shield.
When your grab comes out 12 frames you can't even grab him out of most of his attacks unless you stale d smash, she has no moves to punish him with and just pray your opponent doesn't know how to tech it.
Not even gonna bring up how early he kills her.

approach

Lol youre a funny one.

 

[Kisamealex3]

Fair enough.

I'm definitely not one to say that any matchup is easy with Zelda, but the "very, very, very hard" mindset is a gross overexaggeration and isn't productive at all imo. Fox's tend to hop, which means that almost every time they're in the air they're vulnerable. Run in, approach, shield, short hop, etc, do what it takes to get in.

And, yes, Zelda's groundspeed is horrible, however she also has her fall speed and air maneuverabliity to consider, and with her air dodge and short hop - and range - she does have options.

EDIT: Oh, and "fun" is subjective. I think that Snake and MK matchups are fun, regardless of difficulty.

When I said "ner" I didn't mean she didn't have any. Running in, shielding and reading his short hop pattern can work...but how many times do you think a smart Fox will allow Zelda to punish him for camping?

Punishing camping with Zelda...doesn't work.

Well, it can work... however, it usually doesn't. What I usually do is try to get in and when I do get in, I keep an eye on their habits such as up tilting as a "gtf away from me" move and punish when I can.

But Nakat (the best fox I play..though there are others) gets used to it and doesn't let himself be put into a position. He starts to get patient with his shield (for Fsmash and up smash) and reads Zelda's best approach/punish move (dash attack imo).

She has options but, it only takes so long for your opponent to catch on.

Well I may have added a few very but Zelda can't even catch characters like Mario when they run away, no way in hell does she have fun chasing fox.
One of Fox's major weaknesses is that most of his moves are punishable on shield.
When your grab comes out 12 frames you can't even grab him out of most of his attacks unless you stale d smash, she has no moves to punish him with and just pray your opponent doesn't know how to tech it.
Not even gonna bring up how early he kills her.


Lol youre a funny one.

I agree with the Mario statement too. It just so happens Nakat's low tier is Mario haha.

 

[GodAtHand]

Fox really isn't that bad of a matchup. He can be punished will careful reading and spacing and if you are making the proper trades you will be killing him before he kills you and at lower percents. Catching the little fluffer is the tough part though. Definitely no worse than 40-60 imo. Which we should actually just call "not bad" for Zelda.

 

[Kisamealex3]

Fox really isn't that bad of a matchup. He can be punished will careful reading and spacing and if you are making the proper trades you will be killing him before he kills you and at lower percents. Catching the little fluffer is the tough part though. Definitely no worse than 40-60 imo. Which we should actually just call "not bad" for Zelda.

Yeah, I'm thinking its a 60:40 and nothing worse. But catching him is hard and Nakat is gay haha

 

[Fuujin]

Fox really isn't that bad of a matchup. He can be punished will careful reading and spacing and if you are making the proper trades you will be killing him before he kills you and at lower percents. Catching the little fluffer is the tough part though. Definitely no worse than 40-60 imo. Which we should actually just call "not bad" for Zelda.

What do you use punish him with other than D smash?
And how do you deal with a campy Fox?
He can literally run away the entire time and rack up damage slowly while Zelda tries to catch him, then kill her at 80-90.
At least when Ganondorf catches him in a choke he has guaranteed moves he can use on him.

40-60 is like Link or Kirby.
Then again you guys are the ones who gave her even with ROB.
and While were on the subject of Match ups, what do you guys think IC's is?
Lemme guess 55-45?

 

[GodAtHand]

Who's this hostile ****?

I see absolutely no reason to explain anything to you when all I have seen from you so far is whiny Zelda-related tantrums.

Grow up, and maybe we can start talking matchups and actually get somewhere on this board.

 

[Fuujin]

Who's this hostile ****?

I see absolutely no reason to explain anything to you when all I have seen from you so far is whiny Zelda-related tantrums.

Grow up, and maybe we can start talking matchups and actually get somewhere on this board.

Being immature is way more fun, you should try it and I just asked what your opinion of the IC's match up was.

 

[Kisamealex3]

Being immature is way more fun, you should try it and I just asked what your opinion of the IC's match up was.

Nah, you said way more than just "what's your opinion on the ICs."

but um, before I let this fox discussion die, what do you think the Zelda vs Fox, Rob, and IC's respectively are?

Just curious...

 

[Fuujin]

Nah, you said way more than just "what's your opinion on the ICs."

but um, before I let this fox discussion die, what do you think the Zelda vs Fox, Rob, and IC's respectively are?

Just curious...

Fox 35-65
Rob 40-60
IC's 40-60

When you guys make the match up ratios are you assuming the opponent techs the D smash, SDI's lightning kicks, uses an aerial to beat Din's Dire, DI's the side smash and in general just sites back and waits for Zelda to approach?
Or do you just go by your experience of people who don't know the match up?

 

[GodAtHand]

This is much better, you didn't come off as hostile this time.

My personal Matchups:
Fox = 40-60
Rob = 40-60
IC = 40-60

Yepp, I think they are all equally ****ty but winnable within reason.

Now for your other questions.

What people assume is generally up to them when we are doing matchups. I know that I personally when discussing matchups take into account the majority of the players of that particular character I have played as well as pay special attention to the one that I (or the community) considers "best". For example, I may be able to beat the majority of ROBs with relative ease and that will show through in my matchup summary a little, but the best ROB I have played, TeeVee, consistently beats me even though our matches are very close. TeeVee will be the deciding factor in my machtchup ratio because he is the one who will camp me well, gimp me proper, and beat out my spacing.

The final summary is left to the creator of the thread. When I did my matchup on Falco I took everyone's final summary numbers and got the average. If it's in-between numbers I will use my own discretion to decide which way the numbers point.

When we talk Zelda, there are not many people who can say they have proficient experience with a certain character so accurate matchup ratios are sadly not that uncommon.

 

[Fuujin]

When we talk Zelda, there are not many people who can say they have proficient experience with a certain character so accurate matchup ratios are sadly not that uncommon.

I understand that part but I think it should be clear to everyone how hard it would be to fight an opponent who just...sites there and waits for Zelda to come to them.
Every character (including Ganondorf) has no need to approach her.
I manage to do well against MKs, Falcos and Snakes at times but I realize that majorly due to my opponents mistakes and not due to Zelda being able to fight well against them.
I feel like people think if they win a fight against a character it means its easily winnable.
Just imagine that same character trying to camp you with the percent lead refusing to approach before you give a ratio.

 

[Kisamealex3]

Fox 35-65
Rob 40-60
IC's 40-60

When you guys make the match up ratios are you assuming the opponent techs the D smash, SDI's lightning kicks, uses an aerial to beat Din's Dire, DI's the side smash and in general just sites back and waits for Zelda to approach?
Or do you just go by your experience of people who don't know the match up?

Fox 40-60
ROB 35-65 imo
ICs 40-60

How many people do you know play with such perfection that they "SDI Lightning kicks, di down and tech downsmashes, and so on?" If you're going to discuss a matchup, you have to be realistic. Most people don't know how to escape Zelda's moves/perfectly do w.e you're talking about because nobody needs to really take the time to...there are not a lot of Zeldas.

And for the people that have learned the matchup through training with yourself, how many of them do these things consistantly? I feel like I can answer that for you.

 

[KayLo!]

Who's this hostile ****?

I see absolutely no reason to explain anything to you when all I have seen from you so far is whiny Zelda-related tantrums.

Grow up, and maybe we can start talking matchups and actually get somewhere on this board.

Lol. This.

& 3x, you can't SDI fair or bair. Only DI.

Anyways, as much as this MU discussion is great and productive, why not make a separate place for it? I really don't want this to turn into a matchup/tactical thread.

 

[Kisamealex3]

Lol. This.

& Fuu, you can't SDI fair or bair. Only DI.

Anyways, as much as this MU discussion is great and productive, why not make a separate place for it? I really don't want this to turn into a tactical thread.

Bolded part: Yeah, I thought that because I knew it was one or the other but, I didn't mention it. Haha.

and making a tactical discussion thread sounds fun. Nothing like some good debates =].

Question is....who's gonna make it? *DUN DUN DUN*

 

[KayLo!]

Yeah, that was directed at you, my bad. I saw the quote and thought the wrong person wrote it.

I think Zelda has other moves with lower than average SDI multipliers.... maybe not necessarily 0, but I know the beginning of usmash, for instance, has a multiplier of .5. Most of them are balanced out by the fact that they're electric tho. (Electric moves = more hitlag = more time for SDI inputs.)

 

[MrEh]

Wow, the Zelda boards start being productive at the weirdest times. lol

 

[Kisamealex3]

Yeah, that was directed at you, my bad. I saw the quote and thought the wrong person wrote it.

Nah, you were right when you said Fuu. He said it haha. I was just gonna say what you said in bold but wasn't sure if I was right or not. It's been a while since I've used PSA to look into Zelda.

EDIT: How the hell do I stop my 2 year old signature from popping up? It's so...cheesy and I don't even play Wifi anymore >_>. I suck at these forums haha. Help please haha.

 

[KayLo!]

Oh.

I knew that all along obv.

EDIT: User CP > Edit Signature. And delete it. =X Or when you post via "Add Reply," uncheck the box about showing your signature.

 

[Kisamealex3]

Oh.

I knew that all along obv.

EDIT: User CP > Edit Signature. And delete it. =X Or when you post via "Add Reply," uncheck the box about showing your signature.

Thank you, sir. You are a gentleman and a scholar.

 

[NAKAT]

I hardly get hit with dtilt fujinnkid. Anywho I think the mu would be 60-40 just my opinion. Jordan get to a tournament and start turning heads please thanks broskie.

 

[Kisamealex3]

I hardly get hit with dtilt fujinnkid. Anywho I think the mu would be 60-40 just my opinion. Jordan get to a tournament and start turning heads please thanks broskie.

And he hardly gets hit because it's hard to get in safely haha. I only get it when I read his phantasm thingy.

You know I try to get to events...but then some bull**** happens right when its time...though SOMETIMES what happens is my fault haha.

I'm trying..>_>

 

[KayLo!]

If we ever happen to meet, I'll mm your Zelda with Pika, $5. =D

 

[NAKAT]

You are a really good Zelda and I like to see if you could actually reach the top level with her. Show the bbr why they made a foolish choice of making her second to last.

 

[Kisamealex3]

If we ever happen to meet, I'll mm your Zelda with Pika, $5. =D

My best friend that has been playing smash with me ever since it came out mains Pika and I play him hours at a time whenever I can. So, I do feel confident in that I'll put up a fight.

I'm not scared or anything when I deny your challenge but, I just don't money match. Not confident enough yet. =X

I'll play serious matches though :D. I just don't feel comfortable betting money on a match yet.

You are a really good Zelda and I like to see if you could actually reach the top level with her. Show the bbr why they made a foolish choice of making her second to last.

D'aww, thanks haha.

Can't make it without support. It's a good thing you're here haha.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Uhh, I'll ask if someone in the Lab can do it. I don't mess around much with actual hacking and codes and stuff.

Din's Fire is a weird projectile, though, so it's probably going to be difficult..... I wouldn't hold my breath.

I like to consider it as a really large extension of Zelda's arm.

In saying that, if you could ask them, I'd be grateful.

 

[Fuujin]

Lol. This.

& 3x, you can't SDI fair or bair. Only DI.

Sourspots, meaning with the small knockback and SDI theyre almost always able to counter attack you.

I hardly get hit with dtilt fujinnkid. Anywho I think the mu would be 60-40 just my opinion. Jordan get to a tournament and start turning heads please thanks broskie.

You just said he's good at getting D tilt locks, D tilt doesn't lock unless you don't SDI.
Someone can't be good at getting them, someone can only not know how to SDI out in order to get caught in it.

 

[KayLo!]

I like to consider it as a really large extension of Zelda's arm.

In saying that, if you could ask them, I'd be grateful.

Already put in the request. =D I'll probably have to actively hunt down Bio to get it done though.

Sourspots, meaning with the small knockback and SDI theyre almost always able to counter attack you.

Reaaaally, you were talking about sourspots the entire time?

Anyways, they don't even have to SDI in order to counterattack. Sourspotted kicks have pitiful hitstun and put you at a solid disadvantage even on hit (like dair).

 

[Fuujin]

Already put in the request. =D I'll probably have to actively hunt down Bio to get it done though.



Reaaaally, you were talking about sourspots the entire time?

Anyways, they don't even have to SDI in order to counterattack. Sourspotted kicks have pitiful hitstun and put you at a solid disadvantage even on hit (like dair).

Well yeah but even characters like Wario/Luigi can counter attack them when they SDI them.
Sweetspots are nice you just have forever to decide where youre going to DI when you get hit.

 

[KayLo!]

Pretty much everybody can. That's why you're not supposed to aim to sourspot. =P

& kicks aren't really meant to be followed up on, so the fact that they can be easily DI'd isn't a huge negative. Don't waste them before you know for sure that they'll kill..... not hard.

 

[Kisamealex3]

Well yeah but even characters like Wario/Luigi can counter attack them when they SDI them.
Sweetspots are nice you just have forever to decide where youre going to DI when you get hit.

Matchup ratios have to be realistic. How many people do know SDI into Zelda every fair/bair you throw at them to punish in whatever way you're imagining? And so what if they have forever to decide where they're going to DI? If they're at kill percent...they're going to die.

:stop:

Your argument is so unrealistic, it hurts. I don't get where you're trying to go with this whole DI and SDI thing.

You were talking about sourspots the whole time? lol:

Originally Posted by Fuujin
Fox 35-65
Rob 40-60
IC's 40-60

When you guys make the match up ratios are you assuming the opponent techs the D smash, SDI's lightning kicks, uses an aerial to beat Din's Dire, DI's the side smash and in general just sites back and waits for Zelda to approach?
Or do you just go by your experience of people who don't know the match up?

Like, come on.

 

[pwiito]

kisamealex3 will **** everyone in here