The Great Fairy Fountain Research Thread

[NAKAT]

Just because I said he can catch people with dtilt doesn't mean it was on me. he obviously has caught many people he has played with it and the move is not completely unavoidable especially if the Zelda is smart. Zelda has a lot of potential she just needs more players to put everything they can into unlocking it.

 

[Fuujin]

Just because I said he can catch people with dtilt doesn't mean it was on me. he obviously has caught many people he has played with it and the move is not completely unavoidable especially if the Zelda is smart. Zelda has a lot of potential she just needs more players to put everything they can into unlocking it.

Funny, everyone and their momma says this but I've yet to see another Zelda in a tournament.

Better yet...do you even play Zelda?

 

[Fuujin]

Matchup ratios have to be realistic. How many people do know SDI into Zelda every fair/bair you throw at them to punish in whatever way you're imagining? And so what if they have forever to decide where they're going to DI? If they're at kill percent...they're going to die.

:stop:

Your argument is so unrealistic, it hurts. I don't get where you're trying to go with this whole DI and SDI thing.

You were talking about sourspots the whole time? lol:



Like, come on.

I never specified a sourspot or sweet spot.
You guys can omit the lightning kick part for all I know, you all seem to ignore the other stuff.
Is it not realistic for her d smash to be techd?
Her side smash to be SDId?

If you guys think she's so great start getting good tournament results with her and I don't mean as a pocket character.

 

[GodAtHand]

Is it not realistic for her d smash to be techd?
Her side smash to be SDId?

If you guys think she's so great start getting good tournament results with her and I don't mean as a pocket character.

1) Yes it can be teched, but if you are prepared for it there is not much they are going to do about it anyways.
2) Yes it gets SDId quite often, but if you get used to the angles opponents go flying out it becomes second nature to combo them or react properly which won't put you at any disadvantage.
3) Some of us already have. DM has proven himself with Zelda time and again, as well as myself and Scary. And although Scary does use Shiek myself and others can attest to his proper use of Zelda as an extension of that character.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I never specified a sourspot or sweet spot.
You guys can omit the lightning kick part for all I know, you all seem to ignore the other stuff.
Is it not realistic for her d smash to be techd?
Her side smash to be SDId?

If you guys think she's so great start getting good tournament results with her and I don't mean as a pocket character.

I don't think the dsmash can be teched. I've never had anyone tech my dsmash ever. I'm not sure who you're playing but for us regular folk playing against normal humans dsmash doesn't get teched.

Yeah her fsmash can be SDI'd you can also hit with it so that it's impossible to SDI the move. You need to be able to take that factor into account (that the move can be SDI'd) then also recognize that if your opponent is capable of SDI'ing the fsmash to be able to space it and use it properly so that they can't.

Also Zelda's tourney performance ranges there are players who do well with her and some who don't. I've seen people have respectable placings with her and it not be scary DM or riot. So instead of taking your frustrations out on other people how about you try to step your game up.

 

[GodAtHand]

Dsmash can be teched. You DI into the ground and immediately tech. Granted this can't be done if you are hitting them off the stage and it's not something most people will do on reaction, but it can happen. Once you get used to it though it really doesn't pose a threat to Zelda, it actually can sometimes lead to better opportunities.

 

[Kisamealex3]

I never specified a sourspot or sweet spot.
You guys can omit the lightning kick part for all I know, you all seem to ignore the other stuff.
Is it not realistic for her d smash to be techd?
Her side smash to be SDId?

Well, generally when people say...Lightning Kick they mean the part that electrifies the opponent..meaning the sweetspot. This isn't supposed to be a play on words thing.

How many times have you been put at a disadvantage from your opponent DIing down and teching your downsmash? "OHH NO, THEY'RE EITHER RIGHT IN FRONT OF ME OR A BIT FARTHER. IT'S NOT LIKE I HAVE ANY OPTIONS OR ANYTHING. I'M AT A TOTAL DISADVANTAGE."

And sure, it is realistic for the side smash to be SDI'd but, you say it as if somebody SDIing the side smash is going to affect the matchup ratio. Zelda can SDI into G&W's Bair and "Lightning kick sweet spot" (had to get a bit specific for you) him if done correctly. That definitely means that the matchup should be called a 40-60.

Not only that but SDIing the fsmash doesn't put Zelda at a disadvantage. React to it.

Funny, everyone and their momma says this but I've yet to see another Zelda in a tournament.

Better yet...do you even play Zelda?

Ohh, really? Another Zelda in tourney? So, I'm guessing you enter tourneys faithfully...correct?

And how well do you place with her, almighty Fuujin?

I see you made 33rd out of 117.

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f207/Fumouffu/Screenshots/SiiS3Singles.gif

Lost both of your games in the bracket sharing 33rd place with X amount of people.

If you guys think she's so great start getting good tournament results with her and I don't mean as a pocket character.

Yup, great tourney results there. Meh, at least you made it out of pools. But, don't tell people to start getting good results as if you've placed top 8 or something...especially when most of the people you're talking to are probably better. /safe assumptions . You're not Jujux, Scary, DM, or Riot.

But let's put away all of my trash talk because, I don't have any results to show (yet) haha.

I have a question though: If she is so **** bad to you, why do you main her? You seem to think everything is impossible for her when they really aren't that hard. You should...get better.

 

[NAKAT]

^ that was the post of full truth god **** lol!

I don't have to play Zelda to be able to post here, but I can
help since I play a Zelda all the time and better yet want him to do amazing with the character you bad mouth so much yet "main".

 

[KayLo!]

All right, as much as I kinda enjoy watching Fuu get put in his place, can we move the arguing somewhere else? I want this thread to be productive and, more importantly, not get locked.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

Can't we all just get along lol?

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

^ that was the post of full truth god **** lol!

I don't have to play Zelda to be able to post here, but I can
help since I play a Zelda all the time and better yet want him to do amazing with the character you bad mouth so much yet "main".

Who is the Zelda that you play all the time ? Is he from NJ ?


@scary no we can't get along. Just because we play the same character doesn't mean I'm going to have the same views as another play that plays that character and vice versa.

 

[Kataefi]

Guys go and discuss all this stuff over here: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=267986&page=5

It's where the cool kids are ^ Let's turn this thread into a tactical one as it's dead anyway. If your recent posts disappear then it's been moved over there or to the social.

 

[KayLo!]

Thanks to the amazing Bionic, we now have visible hitbubbles for Din's. =D

Here's the updated .pac with Din's included: http://www.mediafire.com/?agxtx70gdkxq8ya

Shortest Distance
(kind of hard to see because of the blast animation )

~Middle Distance

Maximum Distance

 

[GodAtHand]

Cool, thanks Kaylo!

 

[MrEh]

Now if only Din's actually looked like that. lol

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Thank you soo much KayLo!

That's a pretty big hitbox. I was hoping it'd be bigger though. lul

 

[KayLo!]

That's pretty damn big.... dunno what more you were expecting!

The stage/camera positioning probably make it look smaller since that stage is considerably longer than FD..... but relative to other moves, a fully charged Din's is the largest hitbox I can think of in the game.

EDIT: Courtesy of K Prime:

Ledge Attack Block Advantage

<100% / >100%

Mario - 22 / 20
DK - 36 / 22
Link - 19 / 9
Samus - 21 / 21
ZSS - 27 / 7
Kirby - 26 / 17
Fox - 20 / 4
Pikachu - 22 / 5
Marth - 20 /16
G&W - 22 / 5
Luigi - 22 / 20
Diddy - 18 / 10
Zelda - 17 / 26
Sheik - 20 / 3
Pit - 21 / 22
Metaknight - 21 / 21
Falco - 20 / 4
Ivysaur - 22 / 21
Squirtle - 18 / 20
Charizard - 21 / 30
Ike - 23 / 19
Snake - 21 / 19
Peach - 35 / 16
Yoshi - 26 / 24
Ganondorf - 21 / 22
Ice Climbers - 13 (18) / 16 (20)
Popo - 18 / 21
King Dedede - 22 / 13
Wolf - 20 / 4
Lucario - 30 (0%) / 23 (105%)
Ness - 22 / 21
Sonic - 20 /10
Bowser - 37 / 14
Wario - 15 / 7
Toon Link - 18 / 9
ROB - 21 / 20
Olimar - 29 / 21
Captian Falcon - 21 / 20
Jigglypuff - 25 / 17
Lucas - 22 / 20

There's madd time to punish most quick -- and a good amount of slow -- ledge attacks on block..... fsmash/usmash/utilt/dsmash all work on most characters, and so do fair/turnaround > bair.

Start punishing them!

 

[NAKAT]

Jordan come over Saturday so we can play These matchups.

Zelda vs.

Pit
Sonic
Ic's
Snake
MK
Fox
Luigi
Falco
Diddy
Mario
Ike

:3

 

[WoodyWiggins]

Dunno what that even means...
You always have to press b while using Din's.
Can you explain better?

When you press and hold b, and use the control stick to control Din's fire, I think by holding down on the control stick just before you let go of the b button will make the blast larger.
My bad.

If it's true its nice to know but that wouldn't really help her in anyway whatsoever.

How come it wouldn't help? It's like a B-reversal.

I wasn't aware you could use it out of Shield, good find.

Thank You.

Not sure what this means either.

I might to upload a vid of this to better explain it. But, Zelda's aerial speed is increased when you double jump and buffer Din's Fire. Using it close to the ground makes it kinda look like an air dash.

 

[Kisamealex3]

That's pretty damn big.... dunno what more you were expecting!

The stage/camera positioning probably make it look smaller since that stage is considerably longer than FD..... but relative to other moves, a fully charged Din's is the largest hitbox I can think of in the game.

EDIT: Courtesy of K Prime:



There's madd time to punish most quick -- and a good amount of slow -- ledge attacks on block..... fsmash/usmash/utilt/dsmash all work on most characters, and so do fair/turnaround > bair.

Start punishing them!

So um, I don't understand the whole frame advantage/disadvantage as much as I would like...is there anywhere that can explain it to me or can you brief me on it? lol

Jordan come over Saturday so we can play These matchups.

Zelda vs.

Pit
Sonic
Ic's
Snake
MK
Fox
Luigi
Falco
Diddy
Mario
Ike

:3

...you could have texted/IM'd/called me to tell me this. I don't want Kataefi getting mad at me...or you lol.

I'll IM you.

 

[KayLo!]

So um, I don't understand the whole frame advantage/disadvantage as much as I would like...is there anywhere that can explain it to me or can you brief me on it? lol

From the would-be guide:

What the **** is a frame?: A frame is essentially a snapshot of what's happening on-screen. When played together, frames create the movement we see when we play the game. At normal speed, Brawl runs at 59.94 frames per second (fps), meaning that one frame is equal to ~1/60th of a second. Put simply, the more frames a move takes to come out, the slower it is.

Frame advantage is how many frames you can do your next action before your opponent can do his next action. (A frame advantage of 0 means that you can both do your next move at the same moment. Negative numbers mean they can move before you can.)

So basically, the bigger the number for each ledge attack, the more frames you have to punish it when it hits your shield.

 

[NAKAT]

So um, I don't understand the whole frame advantage/disadvantage as much as I would like...is there anywhere that can explain it to me or can you brief me on it? lol



...you could have texted/IM'd/called me to tell me this. I don't want Kataefi getting mad at me...or you lol.

I'll IM you.

What...?lol

 

[AfroChimp]

mah dude 3x goin in

well, generally when people say...lightning kick they mean the part that electrifies the opponent..meaning the sweetspot. This isn't supposed to be a play on words thing.

How many times have you been put at a disadvantage from your opponent diing down and teching your downsmash? "ohh no, they're either right in front of me or a bit farther. It's not like i have any options or anything. I'm at a total disadvantage."

and sure, it is realistic for the side smash to be sdi'd but, you say it as if somebody sdiing the side smash is going to affect the matchup ratio. Zelda can sdi into g&w's bair and "lightning kick sweet spot" (had to get a bit specific for you) him if done correctly. That definitely means that the matchup should be called a 40-60.

Not only that but sdiing the fsmash doesn't put zelda at a disadvantage. React to it.



Ohh, really? Another zelda in tourney? So, i'm guessing you enter tourneys faithfully...correct?

And how well do you place with her, almighty fuujin?

I see you made 33rd out of 117.

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f207/fumouffu/screenshots/siis3singles.gif

lost both of your games in the bracket sharing 33rd place with x amount of people.



Yup, great tourney results there. Meh, at least you made it out of pools. But, don't tell people to start getting good results as if you've placed top 8 or something...especially when most of the people you're talking to are probably better. /safe assumptions . You're not jujux, scary, dm, or riot.

But let's put away all of my trash talk because, i don't have any results to show (yet) haha.

I have a question though: If she is so **** bad to you, why do you main her? You seem to think everything is impossible for her when they really aren't that hard. You should...get better.

get ***** fujin, u mad dirty i can already tell u dont got a girl!!!!!! Woooo mah nigg 3x mad freash

 

[#HBC | Scary]

@Afrochimp:

No need for that man. The purpose for this thread is a research thread so let's get back to that.

 

[Kisamealex3]

From the would-be guide:



Frame advantage is how many frames you can do your next action before your opponent can do his next action. (A frame advantage of 0 means that you can both do your next move at the same moment. Negative numbers mean they can move before you can.)

So basically, the bigger the number for each ledge attack, the more frames you have to punish it when it hits your shield.

Thanks. I've looked everywhere to find out this information lol.

EDIT:

Maybe I'm slow but, I still don't exactly get the whole fraction ratio thing that you posted.

E.g.

<100% / >100%

Mario - 22 / 20
DK - 36 / 22
Link - 19 / 9
Samus - 21 / 21

Yeah, that...I don't get that lol. Maybe I'm just misinterpreting this...

@Afrochimp:

No need for that man. The purpose for this thread is a research thread so let's get back to that.

I concur.

I really don't want to come off as an *******. I'm really a nice guy. >_>

 

[Fuujin]

I don't think the dsmash can be teched. I've never had anyone tech my dsmash ever. I'm not sure who you're playing but for us regular folk playing against normal humans dsmash doesn't get teched.

Yeah her fsmash can be SDI'd you can also hit with it so that it's impossible to SDI the move. You need to be able to take that factor into account (that the move can be SDI'd) then also recognize that if your opponent is capable of SDI'ing the fsmash to be able to space it and use it properly so that they can't.

Also Zelda's tourney performance ranges there are players who do well with her and some who don't. I've seen people have respectable placings with her and it not be scary DM or riot. So instead of taking your frustrations out on other people how about you try to step your game up.

It's pretty easy to tech, go try it out in training you can live till the late 200's unless you're near the edge.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

I concur.

I really don't want to come off as an *******. I'm really a nice guy. >_>

Haha, We all have our friends on this site. Sometimes it can't be helped. It's all good man.

 

[KayLo!]

EDIT:

Maybe I'm slow but, I still don't exactly get the whole fraction ratio thing that you posted.

E.g.

Yeah, that...I don't get that lol. Maybe I'm just misinterpreting this...

Oh. XD That's just a slash to separate the two numbers.

The first one is for <100% (quick) ledge attack; the second is for >100% (slow) ledge attack. I copied it straight from Prime's data, and that's just how he separated the two.

So for example: with Mario, you have a 22 frame advantage when you shield his quick ledge attack and a 20 frame advantage when you block his slow one.

 

[Kisamealex3]

Oh. XD That's just a slash to separate the two numbers.

The first one is for <100% (quick) ledge attack; the second is for >100% (slow) ledge attack. I copied it straight from Prime's data, and that's just how he separated the two.

OHHHHHH, that makes more sense...

So for example: with Mario, you have a 22 frame advantage when you shield his quick ledge attack and a 20 frame advantage when you block his slow one.

So...I have 22 frames to react and punish the get up attack (fast one)? If that's what I'm supposed to get from that then I'm happy because I get it. If not, I have "I'm sleepy" johns lol.

 

[KayLo!]

You got it. =P

 

[Fuujin]

Well, generally when people say...Lightning Kick they mean the part that electrifies the opponent..meaning the sweetspot. This isn't supposed to be a play on words thing.

How many times have you been put at a disadvantage from your opponent DIing down and teching your downsmash? "OHH NO, THEY'RE EITHER RIGHT IN FRONT OF ME OR A BIT FARTHER. IT'S NOT LIKE I HAVE ANY OPTIONS OR ANYTHING. I'M AT A TOTAL DISADVANTAGE."

And sure, it is realistic for the side smash to be SDI'd but, you say it as if somebody SDIing the side smash is going to affect the matchup ratio. Zelda can SDI into G&W's Bair and "Lightning kick sweet spot" (had to get a bit specific for you) him if done correctly. That definitely means that the matchup should be called a 40-60.

Not only that but SDIing the fsmash doesn't put Zelda at a disadvantage. React to it.



Ohh, really? Another Zelda in tourney? So, I'm guessing you enter tourneys faithfully...correct?

And how well do you place with her, almighty Fuujin?

I see you made 33rd out of 117.

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f207/Fumouffu/Screenshots/SiiS3Singles.gif

Lost both of your games in the bracket sharing 33rd place with X amount of people.



Yup, great tourney results there. Meh, at least you made it out of pools. But, don't tell people to start getting good results as if you've placed top 8 or something...especially when most of the people you're talking to are probably better. /safe assumptions . You're not Jujux, Scary, DM, or Riot.

But let's put away all of my trash talk because, I don't have any results to show (yet) haha.

I have a question though: If she is so **** bad to you, why do you main her? You seem to think everything is impossible for her when they really aren't that hard. You should...get better.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

That's pretty damn big.... dunno what more you were expecting!

The stage/camera positioning probably make it look smaller since that stage is considerably longer than FD..... but relative to other moves, a fully charged Din's is the largest hitbox I can think of in the game.

EDIT: Courtesy of K Prime:

That might be what it is.

I should look at it as:

"You could fit multiple Zelda's in that hitbox!"

Does the hitbox grow in stages, or slowly get bigger? If you don't mind me asking.

Also, I like, did this weird jab lock on Lucario in training mode today when I decided to do random stuff. It was pretty cool. I got a vid of it, but I only got like, 3 hits in.

 

[phi1ny3]

This thread is pretty awesome, very well organized.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I had a question about utilt . because of it's transcendent priority will I always get the knock back on the move?

 

[KayLo!]

Transcendent priority = like an aerial, it'll always trade, never clash. So.... yeah, as long as you hit with it, you'll always deal its damage/knockback even if you get hit at the same time.

& thank you Phil! <3

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Transcendent priority = like an aerial, it'll always trade, never clash. So.... yeah, as long as you hit with it, you'll always deal its damage/knockback even if you get hit at the same time.

& thank you Phil! <3

Ah okay another question why is that moves like fsmash don't do the same or nair ? Why are the properties on her moves so weird?

 

[MrEh]

Fsmash never clashes with anything.

Nair never clashes with anything either, since it's an aerial.


I don't understand why you're confused. It's not different.

 

[KayLo!]

Uhh, that's just how they were made? I dunno what you want me to say to that lol.

Honestly, despite what's been commonly accepted, I dunno exactly which of her moves are transcendent and which aren't. Haven't looked into it. It might be that for some multihit moves, certain hits are transcendent while other hits aren't..... or certain hitbubbles are while others aren't..... the entire move doesn't have to be one way or the other.

But I'm pretty sure fsmash, usmash, and utilt are entirely transcendent. Probably jab too. Aerials always are (which is why transcendent priority is sometimes called "aerial priority").

 

[Kisamealex3]

Transcendent priority = like an aerial, it'll always trade, never clash. So.... yeah, as long as you hit with it, you'll always deal its damage/knockback even if you get hit at the same time.

& thank you Phil! <3

Good to know about u-tilt.

Uhh, that's just how they were made? I dunno what you want me to say to that lol.

Honestly, despite what's been commonly accepted, I dunno exactly which of her moves are transcendent and which aren't. Haven't looked into it. It might be that for some multihit moves, certain hits are transcendent while other hits aren't..... or certain hitbubbles are while others aren't..... the entire move doesn't have to be one way or the other.

But I'm pretty sure fsmash, usmash, and utilt are entirely transcendent. Probably jab too. Aerials always are (which is why transcendent priority is sometimes called "aerial priority").

fsmash and utilt are only transcendent...like 99.99% positive...and that's a lot of percent. Unless there's some hidden thing with blah blah /technical stuff...which I doubt

but, I've used upsmash and I have had it clash/destroy things like Mario's fireball and Lucario's aura ball but only on the side of the smash...never from the top. And I know I'm not like...hallucinating or anything so, maybe that calls for some more research?

Also, Tink's down air when it would hit the side... But that may be a hallucination because I'm not 100% sure that it's happened to me in the past..the thought just pops up lol

 

[KayLo!]

Projectiles are different. Aerials can clash with projectiles too.... they work on a separate scale of priority.