The Mario Rediscussion Thread. Currently Rediscussing: Diddy Kong

[Matador]

I go aggro every match-up...

But especially aggro in this one...as long as your approaches are retardedly predictable, your best bet is staying close. As always, jab is amazing, and Dthrow follow-ups are your friend.

 

[demonictoonlink]

Just sayin'

Tink isn't the best wifi character by any means. If he uses nothing but projectiles he is ****ing annoying though. If he plays regularly, he's like the worst. Tink plays SO differently offline, so don't rely on MU info from WiFi.

Tink outcamps mario decently. The advantage really comes from Zair in this MU. It outspaces all of Mario's non-fireball options, is safe on shield if spaced, combos into Nair or grab at mid-spacing, and lastly it can lead to Usmash if you don't DI away.

 

[Matador]

Lol, why are we talking about wifi?

Agreed with demonic. I'm available tomorrow Matt, look for my msg, prolly over AIM.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Just sayin'

Tink isn't the best wifi character by any means. If he uses nothing but projectiles he is ****ing annoying though. If he plays regularly, he's like the worst. Tink plays SO differently offline, so don't rely on MU info from WiFi.

TLs that camp have no counters on wifi. His camping is much faster/more versatile than other forms of camping, and benefits by a factor of over 9000 from lag making powershielding nearly impossible, which lets him rack damage with COMPLETE impunity. His kill moves are also much much easier to get away with on wifi, and his kill moves are actually quite strong and respectably fast. This character has no disadvantages on wifi if he simply camps, and doesn't really suffer much on wifi from fishing for KOs. Nobody else camps as well and can threaten with a high priority kill move nearly as effectively.

No other top tier is nearly as camp oriented, and gets hurt a lot more by spacing becoming an unviable strategy and due to speed based pressure usually requiring a lot of unsafe commitments.

 

[Browny]

For once I find myself agreeing with a2zomg...

Tink isn't the best wifi character by any means [...] he's like the worst.

I must be playing a completely different game to everyone else. idk, we still play standard brawl here in aus.

 

[vato_break]

i've never played a bad toon link


and i've only play rockon + ALOT of wifi toon links.....

 

[Inferno3044]

I've played 2 TL's in the past and both have beaten me, one last june and another last august. The basic thign for fighting TL is powershielding, which I'm not good at because I do stupid stuff and I don't react by shielding for some reason. The other thing is don't be cape happy with projectiles. If you keep using cape, they can go up to you and zair putting us in a bad position. I have also seen Jash play but I never played him.

 

[mars16]

Mario vs ToonLink
_______________

Toonlink
_______

Good camper

ummm... Priority
umm... Good aproacher....right

Tether grab.

Auto Sheild

What else
_________

mARIO

Fludd, good against his Boomarange and can hamper his recovery

Can reflect his projectile

Heavier

 

[BSP]

From my experience, this matchup is pretty even if mario plays it right. It's vital that mario stays somewhat close to Tink. If he doesn't, he has to deal with projectiles all day. I know he has cape, but let's face it, cape isn't unbeatable, and it leaves Mario vulnerable. Stay close, he can outcamp you.

On the ground, Tink's sword will take priority unless you outspeed him. Mario's fsmash will be able to outspace anything he has though. But to counter this, tink does have that hookshot, and it's annoying when he uses it well, since it beats shielding. Mario can't sit in his shield. Zair is annoying as well, but shielding that isn't too dangerous, and if you stay close, it won't be a major problem.

They're pretty even in the air. Tink doesn't really have a counter to Mario's bair (except his, but it has less range I believe). Mario will get ouright beaten by the sword if he doesn't space well though.

Mario and Tink will kill at about the same percents. Gimping Tink isn't impossible, but it's probably not too reliable.

50/50 (most likely) or 55/45 Tink, only because of mario's extra spacing work because of the sword.

 

[UberMario]

LOL ARE YOU SERIOUS?!?!?!? I really hope you don't think Pit is an easy character to gimp. You're saying that a character with 3 mid air jumps, the ability to glide, and be able to give them extremely good aerial mobility in combonation of being able to change height on will is going to be easily gimped. Pit has a better chance of gimping Mario than the other way around probably.

The "LOL ARE YOU SERIOUS" was toward the fact that he said spiking was the only option and I assumed he meant that the Pit's only option was to go into WoI and not the entire recovery, I read it wrong.

And when I said gimped, I meant just interrupting the WoI enough for him to have to use it again.

About Toon Link:

I haven't played against a good Toon Link in over a year, so I'm not entirely sure if what I say is accurate.

I think it's a pretty even matchup.

Toon Link has better range, but Mario has a SLIGHTLY better projectile game.
FLUDD can occasionally be used to gimp their recovery in combination with the cape, but most kos are going to occur on the battlefield or near it. For some reason FLUDD can also destroy boomerangs and send bombs flying through the air, which is a small plus.


So I'll say 50:50. The winner is pretty much whoever can get their ko first when both of them are equally skilled.

 

[Inferno3044]

Mario and TL have two different big pluses to their camping games. For Mario, I think fireballs are better than any of Tink's projectiles. We have the ability to move around while using fireballs which is their best proterty. For Tink, his main plus is that he has 3 different projectiles (zair is not a projectile imo). He can miz them up very well which Mario can't do nearly as well as Tink.

Also, Mario attacks a bit faster just in case people care. Tink isn't that hard to edgeguard either.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Toon Link can move around while his Boomerang is returning keep in mind.

TL has the advantage (slightly imo) because he really doesn't lose in terms of damage dealing by much if at all. Mario might have some extra combo advantages, but that only assumes he gets in range, and TL has some quick moves that are a chore to work around. TL is however a a fair bit better at scoring kills at respectable percents.

Mario only gimps him better, which isn't exactly consistent if TL does projectile mixups, although it does help Mario a lot in this matchup.

 

[Smash G 0 D]

Fireballs do not beat TL's THREE projectiles.

 

[$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$]

TL's projectiles > Mario's Fireball.. but the cape beats his arrows and boomerang.

 

[Inferno3044]

Fireballs do not beat TL's THREE projectiles.

I can see I was misunderstood. When I said I think Mario's fireballs are better than any of TL's projectiles, I meant the projectiles individually like Mario's fireballs are better than TL's arrows. TL definitely has a better projectile game though because he has three. I can definitely see where you could've seen that.

@Lil' G: Reverse Cape will reflect bombs.

 

[$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$]

SH Cape > Fireball > SH Cape is too gud to approach TL. Cape > his projectiles. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Smash G 0 D]

The fact that Mario's fireball is better than one of his individual projectiles doesn't help him at all whatsoever.

 

[Inferno3044]

The fact that Mario's fireball is better than one of his individual projectiles doesn't help him at all whatsoever.

It was probably just dumb of me to say. Something that can help is that since chances are that he can definitely outcamp you, your fireballs aren't useless because you can move with them. In other words, they can still mess him up.

 

[mars16]

But he can move with his bombs

But that doesn't change anything

Stil not as effective as mario's fireballs

 

[A2ZOMG]

Toon Link's Bombs are BETTER than Fireballs because they are items (if you can catch them on reaction however, do that since it seems to be hard to impossible to powershield them, and caping them usually isn't effective). His Boomerang is also a good projectile that has the potential to create setups or increase TL's pressure game as it returns. Arrows are meh overall, although he can spam two in a short hop.

This is a hard matchup. Definitely winnable. But TL clearly has more advantages here.

 

[HeroMystic]

If you can't powershield(wut?) you can always resort to FLUDD. Beats everything.

 

[Inferno3044]

I disagree with A2 saying this MU is hard. It definitely isn't. It's close. Either even or slightly to TL's favor.

 

[Matador]

TL's adv, he has a much larger margin for error in this match-up. Priority, better camping, range, approach...

Where do we even win here? Weight? Gimping? That's about it.

 

[ColinJF]

I have a lot of high level play experience in this match up. Not many people are familiar with high level Brawl play except me and my pal A2ZOMG, so take it from us that this match up is at least 80-20 Mario's advantage.

Mario can easily powershield all of Toon Link's projectiles on reaction. If Toon Link is within half the distance of Final Destination, Mario just responds with a forward smash out of powershield, which kills Toon Link at around 45% with optimal DI.

Toon Link can't even approach Mario because Mario just deploys a fireball barrage, using the fireballs to control space and keep Toon Link in check. Keep in mind, Toon Link's own projectiles are useless because Mario just powershields them on reaction and punishes with forward smash.

Lastly, I want to address Toon Link's kill moves. Toon Link is lucky to kill Mario at 180% because Mario just DIs everything up and thus avoids being gimped, and that's assuming Toon Link even lands one of his kill moves, which won't happen because they are all powershieldable on reaction.

Remember, if this match up analysis doesn't match your gameplay experience, you just haven't seen high level play.

 

[HeroMystic]

Whoa, I almost took that seriously. >.>

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ignore the spam. Enough people already don't know what they're talking about.

As stated the matchup is clearly in TL's favor slightly. It's a chore to get in range and he has good combos and can kill earlier than Mario can.

 

[Matador]

Ignore the spam. Enough people already don't know what they're talking about.

As stated the matchup is clearly in TL's favor slightly. It's a chore to get in range and he has good combos and can kill earlier than Mario can.

Really? I thought Usmash KO'd lower than both his Fair and Usmash?

 

[Big-Omar]

TL's Usmash is better than Mario's Usmash. TL can just spam it to get a kill. We have to keep our Usmash fresh >_>

 

[A2ZOMG]

Really? I thought Usmash KO'd lower than both his Fair and Usmash?

No, TL's U-smash in fact is very strong. One of the stronger Up-smashes in the game (although it requires sweetspot on the initial hit). He in fact generally speaking has better KO moves than his other counterpart Link, at the expense of damage per hit.

Someone else tested KO percents, and from the thread I'm reading, TL's full charged Up-smash kills Mario at 73%, while Mario's full charged Up-smash kills TL at 80%. Uncharged the KO percent listed for TL's Up-smash is 112%, while I would estimate that Mario's Up-smash would kill him at around 122%.

On the other hand Mario does have that sliding Up-smash, but applying it safely is very difficult against projectiles.

TL's Up-air is also a very strong KO move to watch out for.

 

[Inferno3044]

Aside from the spam, I saw a couple of evens and a couple of slighty TL which I'm assuming is 55:45 TL. Can we come to an agreement?

 

[Big-Omar]

I want to say 50:50, but 55:45 TL seems reasonable.

 

[Calebyte]

I'd say 55:45 TL.

 

[mars16]

55:45 Toonlink

Propably because of hiis projectile

 

[BSP]

55 : 45 TL sounds good to me.

 

[Inferno3044]

Sounds good to me too.

 

[The Nutz of Norcal Deez]

On the other hand Mario does have that sliding Up-smash, but applying it safely is very difficult against projectiles.

i was just playing D-Bo's TL and found the best time to sneak a sliding Up-Smash is in-between the 2 arrows if in close range. Other than that, FIHL his Z-air and do it.

55:45 seems right. I hate TL now T.T

 

[mars16]

Well it seems like everyone agrees on 55:45 TL..........

So who's next to talk about

 

[HeroMystic]

I suggest DK.

 

[vato_break]

lets do fox

 

[A2ZOMG]

But we did Fox like recently....

Vs Fox is like vs Sheik. Slow down the matchup and limit his space. Fox kills earlier than Sheik, but is much less safe at approaching, and significantly lighter, and his poke game is pretty bad. I think it's slight adv Mario because you can actually kill him with B-throw while he has next to no answer for safely killing a defensive opponent.

Vs DK is even imo. The trick is getting close and avoiding his shieldgrab, in which case Mario does extremely well since he can pressure DK really well. Nearly useless bit of info is that a perfectly fastfalled B-air -> Jab/Up-B cannot be shieldgrabbed in between hits (you have to space it as such that Mario is facing DK while B-airing). Fireballs for turning around DK are sexy, Cape gimps are awesome, and make sure you don't get baited by his under 100% getup attack that he wants to hit you with and you can control him pretty easily. I forget if his F-tilt has slightly more range than your reverse F-smash, it's very hard to challenge, but I still like F-smash a lot against him. Also his B-air is easily punished out of shield in general unless he 100% retreats it. Other somewhat useful gimmick is that Down-Angled F-smash can hit DK through BFs platforms.