Legend of Zelda The Milk Bar [Archived]

[Spire]

Have fun.

So, is the level design and controls of Majora's Mask better than OoT? It looks pretty much the same (in those two reguards), so I'm not sure whether or not I should get it, as I didn't like OoT enough to finish.

The second temple in Majora's Mask is by far the most unique dungeon in the series. The temple designs are so much more oppressive, stressing you more with darker and uninviting environments and music. Hell, the first room of the first dungeon is barely lit at all, with shadow "Boes" crawling around on the floor. And the dungeon just gets messier and swampier from there.

Such a great game.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

The second temple in Majora's Mask is by far the most unique dungeon in the series. The temple designs are so much more oppressive, stressing you more with darker and uninviting environments and music. Hell, the first room of the first dungeon is barely lit at all, with shadow "Boes" crawling around on the floor. And the dungeon just gets messier and swampier from there.

Such a great game.

Interesting, but not what I meant.

Of any Zelda game I've played, I consider Twilight Princess the best designed; in the sense that you never actually get stuck, while the dungeons themselves are surprisingly complicated - the dungeons are simply brilliantly designed to be both straightforward and roundabout. Many Zelda fans complain that the dungeons were made too easy in TP, but honestly, I think the dungeons were just right, while only the enemies were too easy - there is nothing frustrating about the TP dungeons.

Does MM share that straightforward but complex nature of TP, or will I find myself unable to continue multiple times wothout the aid of a strategy guide?

 

[Spire]

Interesting, but not what I meant.

Of any Zelda game I've played, I consider Twilight Princess the best designed; in the sense that you never actually get stuck, while the dungeons themselves are surprisingly complicated - the dungeons are simply brilliantly designed to be both straightforward and roundabout. Many Zelda fans complain that the dungeons were made too easy in TP, but honestly, I think the dungeons were just right, while only the enemies were too easy - there is nothing frustrating about the TP dungeons.

Does MM share that straightforward but complex nature of TP, or will I find myself unable to continue multiple times wothout the aid of a strategy guide?

You will find yourself unable to continue multiple times without the aid of a strategy guide. Unless of course, you slow down time. That helps a lot.

TP had the best dungeon design in my opinion too (Goron Mines easily have the best and most memorable design in the game). WW takes second place, and OoT and MM battle for third, with the loser dropping to fourth. While overall, they may be losing headway in their "topping OoT" goal, the dungeon design gets better and better with each 3D iteration in the series, so we can expect incredible dungeons in Zelda Wii.

Man, TP was so cool... do you guys remember what was going through your heads the first time you made it to Kakariko Gorge cast under twilight? Everything felt completely spectral and ruined, and I truly felt that Kakariko (even before entering it, whilst stopped at the barbed gate) was in shambles. My heart dropped, and I had not even seen the town yet. This was easily the best part of the game in my opinion - the whole "second dungeon chapter", surrounding Kakariko, Death Mountain, and the Goron Mines. I'm getting chills just thinking about it.

After beating MM (which I've never done), I'm going to resume my new TP file again (haven't even gotten to the Forest Temple, so I'm good to go). Maybe MM will reveal quite a bit in TP conceptually, seeing as how it draws inspiration from ALttP, OoT, MM, and WW respectively.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

You will find yourself unable to continue multiple times without the aid of a strategy guide. Unless of course, you slow down time. That helps a lot.

TP had the best dungeon design in my opinion too (Goron Mines easily have the best and most memorable design in the game). WW takes second place, and OoT and MM battle for third, with the loser dropping to fourth. While overall, they may be losing headway in their "topping OoT" goal, the dungeon design gets better and better with each 3D iteration in the series, so we can expect incredible dungeons in Zelda Wii.

Man, TP was so cool... do you guys remember what was going through your heads the first time you made it to Kakariko Gorge cast under twilight? Everything felt completely spectral and ruined, and I truly felt that Kakariko (even before entering it, whilst stopped at the barbed gate) was in shambles. My heart dropped, and I had not even seen the town yet. This was easily the best part of the game in my opinion - the whole "second dungeon chapter", surrounding Kakariko, Death Mountain, and the Goron Mines. I'm getting chills just thinking about it.

After beating MM (which I've never done), I'm going to resume my new TP file again (haven't even gotten to the Forest Temple, so I'm good to go). Maybe MM will reveal quite a bit in TP conceptually, seeing as how it draws inspiration from ALttP, OoT, MM, and WW respectively.

Hm, cool.

I liked the snowpoint temple best. Incredibly desolate with so much unspoken history. the puzzles were fun too.

Kakariko did seem like the town I was too late to save from complete destruction. As if it was killed before I could get there to save it.

 

[Phantom7]

Maybe MM will reveal quite a bit in TP conceptually, seeing as how it draws inspiration from ALttP, OoT, MM, and WW respectively.

Yes it does. Remember the cutscene near the beginning of the game that explains the Majora's Mask? The Mask shop keeper informs Link that the Majora's Mask is a powerful mask that casts an evil spell on whoever wears it, and a tribe that used it as a ceremonial mask vanished from Hyrule. Could this possibly be the Twili of Twilight Princess? (Notice Midna's broken helmet looks a bit like the Majora's Mask split in half)

 

[Chill]

That's a great observation Phantom7. I remember that before TP's release someone pointed out that the "eye" on Midna's helmet resembled the eye on Majoras mask.

 

[Ochobobo]

It would be a nice link back to Termina.

lol, second only to the timeline, we definitely spend a lot of time talking about Majora's Mask and Termina. Nintendo should find some way to reference it in Spirit Tracks as well, just because.

 

[Spire]

Yes it does. Remember the cutscene near the beginning of the game that explains the Majora's Mask? The Mask shop keeper informs Link that the Majora's Mask is a powerful mask that casts an evil spell on whoever wears it, and a tribe that used it as a ceremonial mask vanished from Hyrule. Could this possibly be the Twili of Twilight Princess? (Notice Midna's broken helmet looks a bit like the Majora's Mask split in half)

The Happy Mask Salesman informs Link that Majora's Mask was a powerful mask created by an ancient tribe from Termina, not Hyrule. That's why he traveled to Termina in the first place, in search of the mask, and on his way back to Hyrule, was intercepted by Skull Kid, and the mask was stolen from him, so it could return to its homeland to destroy it.

If you really analyze it, you'll see that it's all governed by fate.

But, The Fused Shadow was definitely inspired by Majora's Mask, so it may have some sort of Hyrulean parallel nature to MM.

 

[Phantom7]

So you're saying the tribe from Termina that created the Majora's Mask is parallel to the Twili of Hyrule?

 

[The Halloween Captain]

So you're saying the tribe from Termina that created the Majora's Mask is parallel to the Twili of Hyrule?

It would explain a lot.

 

[Spire]

So you're saying the tribe from Termina that created the Majora's Mask is parallel to the Twili of Hyrule?

Yes. And I might also suggest that the Sheikah may very well be the Twili, hence why they do not appear in Ocarina of Time, nor do their Terminian counterparts in Majora's Mask.

If the Sheikah are absent, so must their counterparts, yes? Not necessarily by the same means, but fate must work parallel too. Also, Ikana Canyon greatly resembles Kakariko in that both feature graveyards, wells, and are home to the undead (among probable other similarities that don't come to mind).

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Yes. And I might also suggest that the Sheikah may very well be the Twili, hence why they do not appear in Ocarina of Time, nor do their Terminian counterparts in Majora's Mask.

If the Sheikah are absent, so must their counterparts, yes? Not necessarily by the same means, but fate must work parallel too. Also, Ikana Canyon greatly resembles Kakariko in that both feature graveyards, wells, and are home to the undead (among probable other similarities that don't come to mind).

The sheikah weren't absent, remember Impaz?

It was the Gerudo that were no where to be found in TP.

 

[Spire]

The sheikah weren't absent, remember Impaz?

It was the Gerudo that were no where to be found in TP.

In Ocarina of Time, like I said. Read carefully.

Impa was the last of the Sheikah, and her blood carried on a few generations to Impaz. Even as a child in OoT was Impa the only Sheikah.

 

[Starscream]

How important is rumble in Majora's Mask? It's been a while since I've done a play through so I don't remember if there is anything Stone of Agony-esque that would make rumble important. Contemplating playing it through with Collector's Edition or Virtual Console. Any thoughts?

 

[Phantom7]

But the Sheikah were very loyal to the Royal Family, so if they were to dissappear, why to the Twilight Realm? They must have been wiped out some other way, or else Impa and Impaz would not exist in Hyrule. And the Twili do not resemble the Sheikah whatsoever - not once have we seen the eye and the tear in the Twilight Realm. If anyone, it was either the Gerudos, the Minish, or some unrevealed tribe. The only evidence suggesting that they are the Gerudos, though, is the symbol on Zant's cloak, which remotely appears to be a Gerudo symbol, and the fact that they possess black magic. But after Nabooru, their second leader, became a Sage of Spirit, they turned against Ganondorf. On the other hand, the Minish also possessed black magic (Vaati), and they very closely resemble the Twili. Although, the only Minish that performed any truly evil deeds was Vaati, and he is sealed inside the Four Sword. So it must have been a tribe that hasn't been explained yet through any other games. My theory is that the Twili (and parellel holders of the Majora's Mask) are a new tirbe, and the dissapearances of the Sheikah, Gerudo, and Minish are still unexplained mysteries.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

But the Sheikah were very loyal to the Royal Family, so if they were to dissappear, why to the Twilight Realm? They must have been wiped out some other way, or else Impa and Impaz would not exist in Hyrule. And the Twili do not resemble the Sheikah whatsoever - not once have we seen the eye and the tear in the Twilight Realm. If anyone, it was either the Gerudos, the Minish, or some unrevealed tribe. The only evidence suggesting that they are the Gerudos, though, is the symbol on Zant's cloak, which remotely appears to be a Gerudo symbol, and the fact that they possess black magic. But after Nabooru, their second leader, became a Sage of Spirit, they turned against Ganondorf. On the other hand, the Minish also possessed black magic (Vaati), and they very closely resemble the Twili. Although, the only Minish that performed any truly evil deeds was Vaati, and he is sealed inside the Four Sword. So it must have been a tribe that hasn't been explained yet through any other games. My theory is that the Twili (and parellel holders of the Majora's Mask) are a new tirbe, and the dissapearances of the Sheikah, Gerudo, and Minish are still unexplained mysteries.

Actually, the Twili also share similar builds to the gerudo. In that most the (important) Twili all tall and lanky.

The Twili might be a mix of Gerudo and something else, but the Twili royal family is probably Gerudo. I wonder what the something else is though - remember that the Gerudo only have a sinlge male child every hundred(thousand?) or so years - That would make Zant the first male child in the royal Twili line for who knows how long.

 

[SuperRacoon]

What about the Ikana Kingdom? It seems to me that the twili were most likely intended to be parallel to the Ikana in initial mad quest for power and blatant defiance of the goddesses of the triforce. There is a pretty big difference in the fate that the "dark interlopers" (Hyrule) and the "Ikana" (Termina) met. What I'm wondering is could the Twili be somehow related to the Ikana, and just who were the Ikana in the first place?

 

[The Halloween Captain]

What about the Ikana Kingdom? It seems to me that the twili were most likely intended to be parallel to the Ikana in initial mad quest for power and blatant defiance of the goddesses of the triforce. There is a pretty big difference in the fate that the "dark interlopers" (Hyrule) and the "Ikana" (Termina) met. What I'm wondering is could the Twili be somehow related to the Ikana, and just who were the Ikana in the first place?

I'm not sure. Never played MM, but I thought everything in MM had a Hyrulian equivalent?

Not saying the Dark Interlopers are unrelated to the Ikana, but their system for governing does appear to be Gerudian IMO.

 

[SinkingHigher]

The four giants don't really have an equivalent, iirc. I just started playing MM a few days ago, but from what I know of the series...

 

[Spire]

Who are the Twili?

Well, we know that they are the descendants of the Dark Interlopers of Hyrule, who long before Twilight Princess (and probably Ocarina of Time) tried to overthrow the Kingdom's rule and steal the Triforce, but were consequently banished to the Twilight Realm, where over a long period of time, transformed into the race of the Twili. So, if they derived from Hyrule, could they be any of the Hyrulean races that we've come to known? Let's analyze the facts.

GERUDO - Firstly, the known Twili have only been featured in the Child Timeline (during TP), so if the Dark Interlopers happened to be the Gerudo, then they would have to have been banished after Link left for Termina, when Ganondorf presumably attacked Hyrule and upon being defeated, was unsuccessfully executed (as seen in the flashback in TP) and consequently banished too. This means that there are no Twili in the Adult Timeline, because the Gerudo had not been banished due to the fact that their leader, Nabooru, rose to power as the Sage of Spirit and hence, redefined her people as honorary citizens of the country. However, the Gerudo are also present in Termina, so a race like the long-since-disappeared Ikana would be far better candidates for the title of "Terminian counterparts to the Dark Interlopers".

The verdict? Most likely not.

SHEIKAH - First and foremost, the Sheikah's eye symbol appears on not only the Fused Shadow, but also on the Throne in the Twilight Palace. These may be the two most powerful structures in Twili lore. Remember, the Fused Shadow was not created by the Dark Interlopers, but rather by The Goddesses to seal their evil powers away. So, why would the Sheikah Eye Symbol materialize on the back of the Fused Shadow if those whose powers were sealed in it weren't the Sheikah themselves? This can be contested by assuming that the eye symbol is used as the actual seal; as a contrasting, magical symbol to keep the dark powers infused with the shadow. However, the fact that this symbol appears on the throne of the Twilight Palace completely undoes this theory, as those that built the throne - the seat of power over the entire Twilight Realm - would do so to make known that their symbol reigns over all of the land.

The verdict? Most likely.

IKANA - This is an extension of the Sheikah chapter above. The Ikana have built an establishment very, very similar to that of Kakariko, with parallel landmarks such as the well, the graveyard, and the music box house (reminiscent of the Windmill Hut). The Ikana, like the Sheikah, are spoken of as a people of old who for unknown reasons, have disappeared from their homelands. Similar stories of the "dark interlopers" and an "ancient tribe" leave behind both the Fused Shadow and Majora's Mask respectively in these parallel worlds. The Stone Tower Temple, located in Ikana Canyon features large statues with the Triforce carved into the bottom sides as if to shun it. This could reveal that the Ikana hated the Triforce, and were hence banished by the Goddesses (who still govern Termina -- the Giants are simply deities like the Deku Tree). It is entirely possible that both the Sheikah and the Ikana were banished from their worlds long before Ocarina of Time/Majora's Mask to the Twilight Realm, and subsequently bred into the Twili. The Twili share affinities with both the Sheikah and the Ikana; the shadow-worship of the Sheikah, and the glowing yellow-red eyes of Majora's Mask. Also, the fact that Zant's fighting style and overall personality is almost identical to that of Majora's Wrath (and in some ways to Skull Kid, whilst possessed by Majora's Mask) corroborates this theory even further. Also, the architecture of the Twilight Palace is utterly similar to that of Stone Tower Temple.

So to bring the two together - the craftsmen Ikana, and the magicians Sheikah, a single race has developed -- the Twili.

The verdict? I like to think so.

 

[toon_marth]

Well, we know that they are the descendants of the Dark Interlopers of Hyrule, who long before Twilight Princess (and probably Ocarina of Time) tried to overthrow the Kingdom's rule and steal the Triforce, but were consequently banished to the Twilight Realm, where over a long period of time, transformed into the race of the Twili. So, if they derived from Hyrule, could they be any of the Hyrulean races that we've come to known? Let's analyze the facts.

GERUDO - Firstly, the known Twili have only been featured in the Child Timeline (during TP), so if the Dark Interlopers happened to be the Gerudo, then they would have to have been banished after Link left for Termina, when Ganondorf presumably attacked Hyrule and upon being defeated, was unsuccessfully executed (as seen in the flashback in TP) and consequently banished too. This means that there are no Twili in the Adult Timeline, because the Gerudo had not been banished due to the fact that their leader, Nabooru, rose to power as the Sage of Spirit and hence, redefined her people as honorary citizens of the country. However, the Gerudo are also present in Termina, so a race like the long-since-disappeared Ikana would be far better candidates for the title of "Terminian counterparts to the Dark Interlopers".

The verdict? Most likely not.

SHEIKAH - First and foremost, the Sheikah's eye symbol appears on not only the Fused Shadow, but also on the Throne in the Twilight Palace. These may be the two most powerful structures in Twili lore. Remember, the Fused Shadow was not created by the Dark Interlopers, but rather by The Goddesses to seal their evil powers away. So, why would the Sheikah Eye Symbol materialize on the back of the Fused Shadow if those whose powers were sealed in it weren't the Sheikah themselves? This can be contested by assuming that the eye symbol is used as the actual seal; as a contrasting, magical symbol to keep the dark powers infused with the shadow. However, the fact that this symbol appears on the throne of the Twilight Palace completely undoes this theory, as those that built the throne - the seat of power over the entire Twilight Realm - would do so to make known that their symbol reigns over all of the land.

The verdict? Most likely.

IKANA - This is an extension of the Sheikah chapter above. The Ikana have built an establishment very, very similar to that of Kakariko, with parallel landmarks such as the well, the graveyard, and the music box house (reminiscent of the Windmill Hut). The Ikana, like the Sheikah, are spoken of as a people of old who for unknown reasons, have disappeared from their homelands. Similar stories of the "dark interlopers" and an "ancient tribe" leave behind both the Fused Shadow and Majora's Mask respectively in these parallel worlds. The Stone Tower Temple, located in Ikana Canyon features large statues with the Triforce carved into the bottom sides as if to shun it. This could reveal that the Ikana hated the Triforce, and were hence banished by the Goddesses (who still govern Termina -- the Giants are simply deities like the Deku Tree). It is entirely possible that both the Sheikah and the Ikana were banished from their worlds long before Ocarina of Time/Majora's Mask to the Twilight Realm, and subsequently bred into the Twili. The Twili share affinities with both the Sheikah and the Ikana; the shadow-worship of the Sheikah, and the glowing yellow-red eyes of Majora's Mask. Also, the fact that Zant's fighting style and overall personality is almost identical to that of Majora's Wrath (and in some ways to Skull Kid, whilst possessed by Majora's Mask) corroborates this theory even further. Also, the architecture of the Twilight Palace is utterly similar to that of Stone Tower Temple.

So to bring the two together - the craftsmen Ikana, and the magicians Sheikah, a single race has developed -- the Twili.

The verdict? I like to think so.

They are most related to the Ikana in terms of events that took place to create the current state we see them in, so why not?

 

[Starscream]

How important is rumble in Majora's Mask? It's been a while since I've done a play through so I don't remember if there is anything Stone of Agony-esque that would make rumble important. Contemplating playing it through with Collector's Edition or Virtual Console. Any thoughts?

So, uh, don't mean to interrupt the current discussion but does anyone have an answer?

 

[The Halloween Captain]

No thoughts on the above post, don't know enough to say anything.

Well, we know that they are the descendants of the Dark Interlopers of Hyrule, who long before Twilight Princess (and probably Ocarina of Time) tried to overthrow the Kingdom's rule and steal the Triforce, but were consequently banished to the Twilight Realm, where over a long period of time, transformed into the race of the Twili. So, if they derived from Hyrule, could they be any of the Hyrulean races that we've come to known? Let's analyze the facts.

GERUDO - Firstly, the known Twili have only been featured in the Child Timeline (during TP), so if the Dark Interlopers happened to be the Gerudo, then they would have to have been banished after Link left for Termina, when Ganondorf presumably attacked Hyrule and upon being defeated, was unsuccessfully executed (as seen in the flashback in TP) and consequently banished too. This means that there are no Twili in the Adult Timeline, because the Gerudo had not been banished due to the fact that their leader, Nabooru, rose to power as the Sage of Spirit and hence, redefined her people as honorary citizens of the country. However, the Gerudo are also present in Termina, so a race like the long-since-disappeared Ikana would be far better candidates for the title of "Terminian counterparts to the Dark Interlopers".

The verdict? Most likely not.

SHEIKAH - First and foremost, the Sheikah's eye symbol appears on not only the Fused Shadow, but also on the Throne in the Twilight Palace. These may be the two most powerful structures in Twili lore. Remember, the Fused Shadow was not created by the Dark Interlopers, but rather by The Goddesses to seal their evil powers away. So, why would the Sheikah Eye Symbol materialize on the back of the Fused Shadow if those whose powers were sealed in it weren't the Sheikah themselves? This can be contested by assuming that the eye symbol is used as the actual seal; as a contrasting, magical symbol to keep the dark powers infused with the shadow. However, the fact that this symbol appears on the throne of the Twilight Palace completely undoes this theory, as those that built the throne - the seat of power over the entire Twilight Realm - would do so to make known that their symbol reigns over all of the land.

The verdict? Most likely.

IKANA - This is an extension of the Sheikah chapter above. The Ikana have built an establishment very, very similar to that of Kakariko, with parallel landmarks such as the well, the graveyard, and the music box house (reminiscent of the Windmill Hut). The Ikana, like the Sheikah, are spoken of as a people of old who for unknown reasons, have disappeared from their homelands. Similar stories of the "dark interlopers" and an "ancient tribe" leave behind both the Fused Shadow and Majora's Mask respectively in these parallel worlds. The Stone Tower Temple, located in Ikana Canyon features large statues with the Triforce carved into the bottom sides as if to shun it. This could reveal that the Ikana hated the Triforce, and were hence banished by the Goddesses (who still govern Termina -- the Giants are simply deities like the Deku Tree). It is entirely possible that both the Sheikah and the Ikana were banished from their worlds long before Ocarina of Time/Majora's Mask to the Twilight Realm, and subsequently bred into the Twili. The Twili share affinities with both the Sheikah and the Ikana; the shadow-worship of the Sheikah, and the glowing yellow-red eyes of Majora's Mask. Also, the fact that Zant's fighting style and overall personality is almost identical to that of Majora's Wrath (and in some ways to Skull Kid, whilst possessed by Majora's Mask) corroborates this theory even further. Also, the architecture of the Twilight Palace is utterly similar to that of Stone Tower Temple.

So to bring the two together - the craftsmen Ikana, and the magicians Sheikah, a single race has developed -- the Twili.

The verdict? I like to think so.

Unfortunately, you can't really use Zant's personality and fighting style to justify much, because of the obvious connection between Wind Waker Ganondorf and himself. I'm not sure you can really say that the twili were formed before OoT without siting an example of a twili reference, either a fused shadow or twilight mirror, from an OoT timeline game. This is not to say such relics don't exist, but they are important to any theory that predates OoT.

However, while I concede that the Twili may very well predate OoT even in spite of a lack of evidence, Zant and Midna are both Gerudo. They both have the tall and lanky build, Zant has his Gerudo symbol, Midna has the Gerudo red eyes, and both are quite adept magicians (though possibly for other reasons). If Ganondorf was banished to the twilight realm, why not the rest of the tribe?

 

[Spire]

No thoughts on the above post, don't know enough to say anything.



Unfortunately, you can't really use Zant's personality and fighting style to justify much, because of the obvious connection between Wind Waker Ganondorf and himself. I'm not sure you can really say that the twili were formed before OoT without siting an example of a twili reference, either a fused shadow or twilight mirror, from an OoT timeline game. This is not to say such relics don't exist, but they are important to any theory that predates OoT.

However, while I concede that the Twili may very well predate OoT even in spite of a lack of evidence, Zant and Midna are both Gerudo. They both have the tall and lanky build, Zant has his Gerudo symbol, Midna has the Gerudo red eyes, and both are quite adept magicians (though possibly for other reasons). If Ganondorf was banished to the twilight realm, why not the rest of the tribe?

Did you not read what I wrote?

The Gerudo have reddish eyes, but what race is the most popular for the red eyes, and furthermore represent themselves with a symbol that depicts a red eye? Oh, it can't be the Sheikah, OBVIOUSLY.

I can understand why you assume Zant and Midna (and subsequently, the Twili entirely) to be of Gerudo descent, but base it on their hair color (well, Midna's), not the fact that a symbol that somewhat represents the Gerudo symbol appears on Zan't coat, when conversely, the Sheikah symbol appears on things of much more importance -- try, like I said, THE FUSED SHADOW and the TWILIGHT PALACE THRONE. Really now, does apparel have that much more of an impact than those two obviously powerful objects?

Remember, both Veran and Onox sport the symbol too. Now, Veran represents the Twili very well in her human form, and while she sports the Gerudo symbol (and also an altered version of the Sheikah symbol), her true form is an evil fairy, so Veran is actually of the Fairy species. Onox is quite possibly another male Gerudo born 100 or so years after Ganondorf was born (approximately 30-40 years before OoT).

But why in the world are you still standing by the theory that Zant and WW Ganondorf have any relation whatsoever, or worse, that they are the same? By claiming this, you are proposing that the Dark Interlopers were banished before Ocarina of Time, so that they would equally develop in both timelines. However, you opposed this claim of mine in your post with:

"I'm not sure you can really say that the twili were formed before OoT without siting an example of a twili reference, either a fused shadow or twilight mirror, from an OoT timeline game. This is not to say such relics don't exist, but they are important to any theory that predates OoT."

I'll give you a great example. You know the Mirror of Twilight? Well, it's in the "Arbiter's Grounds", that are obviously the transformed Spirit Temple due to the fact that both house a statue of the Goddess of Sand, the affinity with coiled snakes, and the biggest one of all -- wait for it -- THE MIRROR OF TWILIGHT. Remember the large, round mirror in the Spirit Temple that gave Link access to the boss room? There's a good chance that it's the Mirror of Twilight. Now, this can't be proven, but I've proposed one of your "relics", and you've yet to do anything to debunk my theories.

Oh, and the Dark Mirror from FSA shares far too many similarities to the Mirror of Twilight, given that both sealed away a "dark tribe" from ages past, and are now located remotely in a forest (FSA) and a desert (TP) away from all civilization.

Nice chatting!

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Did you not read what I wrote?

The Gerudo have reddish eyes, but what race is the most popular for the red eyes, and furthermore represent themselves with a symbol that depicts a red eye? Oh, it can't be the Sheikah, OBVIOUSLY.

I can understand why you assume Zant and Midna (and subsequently, the Twili entirely) to be of Gerudo descent, but base it on their hair color (well, Midna's), not the fact that a symbol that somewhat represents the Gerudo symbol appears on Zan't coat, when conversely, the Sheikah symbol appears on things of much more importance -- try, like I said, THE FUSED SHADOW and the TWILIGHT PALACE THRONE. Really now, does apparel have that much more of an impact than those two obviously powerful objects?

Remember, both Veran and Onox sport the symbol too. Now, Veran represents the Twili very well in her human form, and while she sports the Gerudo symbol (and also an altered version of the Sheikah symbol), her true form is an evil fairy, so Veran is actually of the Fairy species. Onox is quite possibly another male Gerudo born 100 or so years after Ganondorf was born (approximately 30-40 years before OoT).

But why in the world are you still standing by the theory that Zant and WW Ganondorf have any relation whatsoever, or worse, that they are the same? By claiming this, you are proposing that the Dark Interlopers were banished before Ocarina of Time, so that they would equally develop in both timelines. However, you opposed this claim of mine in your post with:
I'll give you a great example. You know the Mirror of Twilight? Well, it's in the "Arbiter's Grounds", that are obviously the transformed Spirit Temple due to the fact that both house a statue of the Goddess of Sand, the affinity with coiled snakes, and the biggest one of all -- wait for it -- THE MIRROR OF TWILIGHT. Remember the large, round mirror in the Spirit Temple that gave Link access to the boss room? There's a good chance that it's the Mirror of Twilight. Now, this can't be proven, but I've proposed one of your "relics", and you've yet to do anything to debunk my theories.

Oh, and the Dark Mirror from FSA shares far too many similarities to the Mirror of Twilight, given that both sealed away a "dark tribe" from ages past, and are now located remotely in a forest (FSA) and a desert (TP) away from all civilization.

Nice chatting!

You don't have to be angry about it...

I don't stand by my theory that Zant and WW Ganondorf have any connection. I am simply pointing out how common symbols don't always correlate to any connection whatsoever, especially in a Zelda game. Especially because we have a very clear example of the contrary happening - two characters that have a lot in common and similar appearances and symbols, but are connected to eachother in no way whatsoever.

However, one of the more popular theories is that the Twili are multiple races, which is strongly supported by the use of the Twilight Mirror for sentencing prisoners. The Gerudo are probably part of the Twili race, as many criminals, including Ganondorf himself, were imprisoned in the Twilight realm. Weren't the Gerudo a band of thieves, after all?

(It also explains why Zant thought he was the rightful king - Gerudo custom is to make the only man in the tribe their next king. But the Twili decided he was too ambitious, getting in the way of his destiny. Just a thought, I'm not putting too much stock in it.)

No idea who the original dark interlopers were though. I'll trust your theories on them.

 

[Spire]

However, one of the more popular theories is that the Twili are multiple races, which is strongly supported by the use of the Twilight Mirror for sentencing prisoners. The Gerudo are probably part of the Twili race, as many criminals, including Ganondorf himself, were imprisoned in the Twilight realm. Weren't the Gerudo a band of thieves, after all?

(It also explains why Zant thought he was the rightful king - Gerudo custom is to make the only man in the tribe their next king. But the Twili decided he was too ambitious, getting in the way of his destiny. Just a thought, I'm not putting too much stock in it.)

Now this is a good idea, that the Twili are simply a conglomerate tribe composed of different races (sort of like Americans).

So let's assume that TP takes place 100 years after OoT. If Ganondorf was born about 30 years before OoT, and if Zant is actually a Gerudo-Twili, then he would be born 70 years after OoT, therefore making him 30 years of age during TP. It sounds feasible.

Also, Zauz, the blacksmith who forges the Phantom Sword in PH may very well be a male Gerudo, as he resembles Ganondorf incredibly. If WW/PH also take place 100 years after OoT, then he too would have been born around 30 years prior to WW/PH, and hence, would be Zant's equivalent. This is of course, if Zant was a descendant of the Gerudo.

 

[chaindude]

while Spire made good theories i think he is very close but not quite there somthing about it just doesnt sound right...i don't know what yet tho..

a random idea that just came to me could be the Sheikah and Ikana sent by the royal family with gerudos being part of Ganondorf's army were sent to the twilight real/sarcred realm to fight there in a game that is yet to be released but changed form after some time had passed not knowing anyway to return formed the race Twili together hence why some forms of there culture are visible.

I myself am beggining to think that the Ikana are a form of Sheikah like there are different types of indian tribes

while it sounds a bit far fetched perhaps...im brain dead at the moment so any thoughts?

 

[c3gill]

Also, Zauz, the blacksmith who forges the Phantom Sword in PH may very well be a male Gerudo, as he resembles Ganondorf incredibly. If WW/PH also take place 100 years after OoT, then he too would have been born around 30 years prior to WW/PH, and hence, would be Zant's equivalent. This is of course, if Zant was a descendant of the Gerudo.

1 male born every hundred years? this means Ganondorf is at least 100 years older than Zauz. Ganondorf makes an appearance in WW, which is immediatly followed by PH- I just dont see that massive age difference, which should be pretty obvious. If he is Gerudo, then **** they live for a long time- and I guess that would answer if 2 males can be alive at the same time. Additionally, how awkward is it that Ganondorf and Zauz would be the only real Gerudos in WW/PH?

iirc, Zauz is from a line of blacksmiths who serve the Ocean King. I dont ever recall Gerudo blacksmiths, and I cant really imagine the Gerudo serving the Ocean King.

I do like the idea of him being a Shiekah though....

while Spire made good theories i think he is very close but not quite there somthing about it just doesnt sound right...i don't know what yet tho..

I myself am beggining to think that the Ikana are a form of Sheikah like there are different types of indian tribes

somewhat agree. Spire knows his stuff and has good thought processes, but some stuff just sounds.... off sometimes (i dislike the new timeline, but im not sure about my reasons for it yet). Generally his stuff is worth contemplating though, and if he posts it it is probably worth taking a 2nd or 3rd look at.

Ikana as Sheikah? meh. Sounds fun, but Id rather think of the Garo's as dead Shiekah. they could have fought the Ikana, a war on the Shiekah? sounds epic

 

[Alzi]

Not to break the time line talk or anything but yesterday i downloaded Majoras Mask on VC and it is mighty fine.

You guys are really smart with the timeline stuff though. xD

 

[Spire]

Well what can I say? I post because I love to talk with all of you about the series

But back to Zauz. The only justice that warrants him the title of "Sheikah" is the fact that his people served the Ocean King, like the Sheikah served the King of Hyrule. However, the Zora serve their King, and the Gerudo serve their King, and the Deku serve their King. It's entirely possible that he is simply of the long-since-dead "Cobble" race, of the Cobble Kingdom.

However, I'm not saying that he's necessarily Gerudo either. He certainly looks Gerudo, and by an incredible amount. He's almost identical in appearance to Ganondorf, sans the dark grey-green skin.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

EDIT: So here's a neat little anecdote. I started playing MM again after downloading it on the VC, and I got all the way to the Goron's Mask, along with collecting quite a vast amount of other odds and ends (such as the Mask of Truth). So yesterday, I turn the game on and to my surprise, I have collected nothing. I did not have my five hearts, not Odolwa's remains, no rupees, nothing. So I'm extremely frustrated, as I had lost so much work.

However. I later realized the irony in it all. I had been playing a game where you must restart time, so that everything you had done and accomplished is reset -- as if nothing ever happened. This is what happened to me in my actual experience with the game. All of that work, saving Koume, beating the Woodfall Temple, collecting all the stray fairies, defeating Odolwa, beating the Skulltula House, putting Darmani's ghost to rest, getting the Goron Mask, and collecting almost a 1000 rupees -- never happened.

But now I've redone almost everything I had before.

 

[c3gill]

However, I'm not saying that he's necessarily Gerudo either. He certainly looks Gerudo, and by an incredible amount. He's almost identical in appearance to Ganondorf, sans the dark grey-green skin.

have you noticed his similarity to the postman apprentice in WW?

and yea, that is absurdly ironic.

 

[urdailywater]

So, uh, don't mean to interrupt the current discussion but does anyone have an answer?

Didn't see any answers.. huh..

I wouldn't say it's too important. I haven't necessarily beaten the game yet, since the last time I played it I got only to the 4th dungeon. It won't necessarily be too important though, since it has almost the same mechanics as Ocarina of Time.

 

[Scott!]

@Starscream: If there's anything rumbly, it's not crucial. Stone of Agony wasn't even required; it only found non-required stuff.

 

[SinkingHigher]

No one seems to have mentioned the Dragon Roost island folk from WW. They all had VERY red eyes. Heck, one of them was a freakin' sage.

Don't know how that fits into the Sheik thing.

PH is ridiculously similar to Link's Awakening. So much so that I couldn't continue playing it, for one thing, but I watched the rest of the game played. I don't know what that means in terms of two games' relationship to one another.

 

[Phantom7]

the Giants are simply deities like the Deku Tree

The Giants are theoretically parallel to the Light Spirits of TP. By awakening the Four Giants in Termina, the parallel action awakens the four Light Spirits, who begin their reign over Hyrule before TP takes place.

My theory about one of the future Zelda games (assuming this time line is accurate) is that the sequel to MM will include Link returning to Hyrule through Lost Woods, discovering a slightly different, peaceful Hyrule, not ruled by a King, but by Zelda and the four Light Spirits. The game will probably also feature the six provinces from TP. Theoretically, it will explain the birth of Zant, the next born male Gerudo after 100 years, and the banishment of Ganondorf and the other tribes.

By the way, the Happy Mask salesman is from Hyrule, and he traveled to Termina carrying the Majora's Mask. The tribe that owned the Majora's Mask is from Hyrule, so THAT tribe was banished to the Twilight Realm, not a parallel tribe from Termina.

 

[Spire]

The Giants are theoretically parallel to the Light Spirits of TP. By awakening the Four Giants in Termina, the parallel action awakens the four Light Spirits, who begin their reign over Hyrule before TP takes place.

My theory about one of the future Zelda games (assuming this time line is accurate) is that the sequel to MM will include Link returning to Hyrule through Lost Woods, discovering a slightly different, peaceful Hyrule, not ruled by a King, but by Zelda and the four Light Spirits. The game will probably also feature the six provinces from TP. Theoretically, it will explain the birth of Zant, the next born male Gerudo after 100 years, and the banishment of Ganondorf and the other tribes.

Phantom7, I love this post. I never thought of the Light Spirits as the Hyrulean counterparts to the Four Giants, but conceptually, it works perfectly. Both are imprisoned by darkness and must be freed somehow (and both are related to masks of a sort, Majora's Mask, and the Fused Shadow).

Also, has anyone realized how similar the Hero's Bow in Majora's Mask is to the Hero's Bow in Twilight Princess? My suspicion is that after defeating Majora, Link travels back to Hyrule (that's a given), and the very bow that he finds in Woodfall Temple ends up in the hands of the Gorons, and hence, why they seal it away in their mines only for a future Link to recover and use to save Hyrule. So really, the same bow used to saved Termina a hundred years past may very well be the same used to save Hyrule in TP. Then again, the Hero's Bow also appears in WW, and is almost an exact toon replica of the one seen in TP, so this is all debatable.

MM Hero's Bow:

TP Hero's Bow:

WW Hero's Bow:

 

[The Halloween Captain]

No one seems to have mentioned the Dragon Roost island folk from WW. They all had VERY red eyes. Heck, one of them was a freakin' sage.

Don't know how that fits into the Sheik thing.

PH is ridiculously similar to Link's Awakening. So much so that I couldn't continue playing it, for one thing, but I watched the rest of the game played. I don't know what that means in terms of two games' relationship to one another.

Actually, I heard about the red eyed Rito(?) on Zeldapedia.

Probably Zora, but I'm not sure if the tribes of Hyrule can intermingle or not.

 

[SinkingHigher]

By the way, the Happy Mask salesman is from Hyrule, and he traveled to Termina carrying the Majora's Mask.

I'm not trying to be one of those ***** that corrects everything he sees, but I think it's significant.

I'm playing MM now, and the Happy Mask Salesman says that he is from Hyrule, but traveled to Termina to get Majora's Mask. He says that Skull Kid ambushed him as he was leaving.

Basically, Majora's Mask is set IN Termina, not in Hyrule. Whether or not that means it's FROM Termina is still unclear. If most things have a counterpart from OoT/TP, it's likely that everything does.

Perhaps like your idea about the Four Giants being counterparts to the Light creatures, the fused Shadow is the counterpart of Majora's Mask?

I get the feeling there is a lot of refernces between the two games.

You seem to get these "inbetween" games that don't feature Ganondorf but take place between two games that do. (This would leave a space for a sequel to OoT that happens before WW.) I'm guessing new Ganondorf in WW is born around the time Link is in Termina.

I know this isn't stated in any game or quotes, but I just really like to think that the Gods are almost punishing Link for leaving Hyrule just for personal gain. I guess I should finish MM before I make any sweeping assumptions though.

 

[Starscream]

@Starscream: If there's anything rumbly, it's not crucial. Stone of Agony wasn't even required; it only found non-required stuff.

Good to know. The slowdown in Clock Town and sound irregularities on the GC version are a tad annoying but I think I'll stick with it since I just got the Deku mask. Hopefully I don't get any of those nasty freezes I've heard about.

While you don't need the Stone of Agony to complete the game by any means it is required to 100% the game unless you use a guide or already know where the hidden grottoes are from previous playthroughs. That or randomly guess where to bomb and hope you get lucky. Either way, that's pretty lame.

 

[Spire]

You seem to get these "inbetween" games that don't feature Ganondorf but take place between two games that do. (This would leave a space for a sequel to OoT that happens before WW.) I'm guessing new Ganondorf in WW is born around the time Link is in Termina.

I know this isn't stated in any game or quotes, but I just really like to think that the Gods are almost punishing Link for leaving Hyrule just for personal gain. I guess I should finish MM before I make any sweeping assumptions though.

Well, MM does not come before WW, but rather after the real ending to Ocarina of Time, where Ganon has been defeated and Link transported out of it (hence, never coming back) to his childhood. The Ganondorf in WW is the same Ganondorf from OoT, because even though you defeat him in his beast form, he is then seen in his Gerudo form suspended in the Sacred Realm, cursing Zelda and the sages.

It is from the Sacred Realm that he supposedly escapes and ravages Hyrule again (as seen in the intro to WW), but because Link has "left" Hyrule, not for Termina, but for his own time seven years before, he simply cannot return to save Hyrule, and hence, it is flooded by the Goddesses.