The Official BBR Tier List v4 -> Sonic's HA Stall is NOT beaten by spot dodge!!!!!!!!

[Kole]

That goes under taking matchup ratios too seriously.

 

[Kitamerby]

Diddy is not better than Snake. Somebody prove me wrong.

 

[Spelt]

Diddy is not better than Snake. Somebody prove me wrong.

Diddy has bananas.
B. A. N. A. N. A. S.


inb4 shaya switches diddy and snake on the tier list.

 

[Arcade]

Pit should not have moved up so much. Prove me wrong. Dedede's up tilt is better than Snake's. Prove me wrong. Link's jab is his best move. Prove me wrong. Lucas has the most useful ATs. Prove me wrong. Mario is cooler than Luigi. Prove me wrong. I don't know what Kitamerby's username means. Prove me wrong. is a better smiley than . Prove me wrong. The most common substance in the universe is silly putty. Prove me wrong.

Spoiler

These posts drive me insane

 

[DMG]

Pit: MASSIVE POTENTIAL SHOWN FROM JAPAN
Dedede: His Utilt DOES give him that invincibility and lifts him up to avoid certain attacks.
Link: You could argue that his Upb or Zair are more important.
Lucas: If his AT's were truly useful, you would think that he would be more competitively viable.
Mario: Cool is subjective. However, Mother Nature clearly prefers the color Green over the Color Red.
Kitamerby: You **** WELL know what his username means.
Smiley: If you know, then you know.
Universe: The most common substance in the universe is matter (Anti Matter ALSO encompasses a lot of the universe, but assuming something "easy" to grasp, I'll just leave that as that and say it is matter)

 

[auriferous]

Overall, it looks great. Good job BBR!

Thoughts/comments:

1) Game and Watch: Right tier, but should be slightly higher. Of the other four characters in his tier, G&W has an advantage over three of them (DDD, Pikachu, Lucario). Maybe metagame development/potential and tournament placements justify his drop, but something still feels wrong about his spot.

2) ICs and Wario are now where they should be. Good.

3) Pit: Some viable reasons have been brought up, but I'm still not buying it (and didn't someone from the BBR say that last minute voting by east coast BBR members caused several characters to be higher than where they should be?). Anyways, TL should at least be in front of him, and arguably ZSS.

4) Zelda: ...yikes. She deserved a drop, but not the largest one in the history of tier lists. At least Ganon is in the right spot now.

5) MK planking - not okay.

 

[Kitamerby]

Kitamerby: You **** WELL know what his username means.

Wait, what? Whose username are we talking about?

Universe: The most common substance in the universe is matter (Anti Matter ALSO encompasses a lot of the universe, but assuming something "easy" to grasp, I'll just leave that as that and say it is matter)

Dark Matter actually encompasses more iirc.

Spoiler

(You have no idea how long I've wanted to make this joke.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Uh... it doesn't cape through the invincibility frames... and ASL = Auto-Snap Ledge.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v10373amNZY Watch 0:26 and notice how Marth's body is above the ledge. In order for Cape Teleport to work the cape has to hit, and the hitbox isn't wide.

It's also not Jab -> D-Smash. It's Jab-Jab -> D-Smash.



The frame data showed here shows that if both jabs connect, Mario has a +7 frame advantage to perform any attack before the opponent can do anything. Legit setups are D-Smash (Frame 5) and F-tilt (Frame 7, have to buffer correctly).

Why isn't this used alot? Because the jab has to be sweetspotted, which is the front of the fist. This means Mario has to space his jabs correctly for this work, and Jabs are typically used as a GTFO move, and F-tilt is better for spacing since it can poke out of grab range and can be used consecutively before the opponent is able to do anything outside of 2-Frame jabs.

More important is the fact that Mario's 2nd hit of Jab sweetspot has a 5 frame advantage on Mario, which allows him to Jab cancel D-smash most of the cast by only sweetspotting the 2nd hit. The first hit of Jab USUALLY combos into the sweetspot of Jab2, and since the majority of the cast gets comboed off of that hit, there really isn't much reason for Mario mains to Jab cancel off of Jab1.

I actually use 2 Jabs D-smash A LOT ever since I got down the timing for canceling off of Jab2. It's really really good. Also Mario can Jab cancel back into his own Jabs for a little extra chips of damage and hits towards stale moves before Jab canceling into say grabs.

I'm really quite surprised nobody else simply holds A and tries to hit confirm with Jabs the way I do. I'll actually try to react and watch if my opponent is sweetspotted by Jabs, and then try to continue on into my combo when I confirm the Jabs have connected.

Also, if there are any doubts that Falcon is too high on the tier list, I just discovered that his 3rd hit of Jab actually HITSTUN combos into Jab1, allowing him to do a combat walk similar to Ike, only Falcon's does more damage (compare Jab1-3 for Falcon doing 11 damage and Jab1 and 2 of Ike's Jab combo doing 9 damage). Once Falcon mains master this form of Jab canceling, you can expect Falcon to pull off 30% strings from landing Jab cancels into grabs (BEFORE factoring that his throws lead into aerials).

 

[Shaya]

Diddy has bananas.
B. A. N. A. N. A. S.


inb4 shaya switches diddy and snake on the tier list.

inb4 someone offers the incredibly awesome Shaya a donation. God favours the charitable. Who knows what may happen.

lalalalalalalalalalalalala or wait another 3 weeks or whatever.

 

[Browny]

@ A2, SDI exists

also auriferous is the biggest lurker in the history of forums

 

[Kitamerby]

also auriferous is the biggest lurker in the history of forums

Holy **** I just noticed that.
4 years, first post?

Someone give this guy a medal.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Also, if there are any doubts that Falcon is too high on the tier list, I just discovered that his 3rd hit of Jab actually HITSTUN combos into Jab1, allowing him to do a combat walk similar to Ike, only Falcon's does more damage (compare Jab1-3 for Falcon doing 11 damage and Jab1 and 2 of Ike's Jab combo doing 9 damage). Once Falcon mains master this form of Jab canceling, you can expect Falcon to pull off 30% strings from landing Jab cancels into grabs (BEFORE factoring that his throws lead into aerials).

combat walking with ike requires that you MISS the second kick jab. and since ur holding the a button, he just immendiately goes back to jab one.

so it only does 3/4% per rotation.

not to mention the fact that something you just found yesterday, doesnt verify the tier position falcon was given 2 weeks ago...

 

[Nanaki]

Holy **** I just noticed that.
4 years, first post?

Someone give this guy a medal.

No kidding. I figured it was some kind of admin prank or something.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGpYJaaLTFU

Yays for epic mindgame? >_> <_<

combat walking with ike requires that you MISS the second kick jab. and since ur holding the a button, he just immendiately goes back to jab one.

so it only does 3/4% per rotation.

What KID said basically.

Falcon can't Combat Walk, as he doesn't move forwards if he misses his second jab. IIRC, the only characters that can Combat Walk are Ike, Squirtle, and I think Sonic (kinda....maybe I'm wrong, basically nobody Combat Walks anyways because you can only consistently get it to work against Ganondorf or Zelda really.)

 

[da K.I.D.]

sonic can do it, its just really really bad, but it works.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

inb4 someone offers the incredibly awesome Shaya a donation. God favours the charitable. Who knows what may happen.

lalalalalalalalalalalalala or wait another 3 weeks or whatever.

Uh for what?

 

[A2ZOMG]

@ A2, SDI exists

also auriferous is the biggest lurker in the history of forums

I know SDI exists.

Regardless it doesn't change that it's a really good setup for some potentially amazing damage. And either way, I think Falcon's place on the tier list is appropriate, no higher or lower.

Having incredibly massive damage potential off of Jabs is only something else to confirm he's not bottom tier.

Nidtendofreak, Falcon DOES combat walk. The third hit of his Jab combo makes him move forward. The point is there is a way to Jab cancel from that into his first Jab, and what's cooler is that at certain percents, it's not merely an air juggle. It's a HITSTUN combo.

 

[NinjaFoxX]

Overall, it looks great. Good job BBR!

Thoughts/comments:

1) Game and Watch: Right tier, but should be slightly higher. Of the other four characters in his tier, G&W has an advantage over three of them (DDD, Pikachu, Lucario). Maybe metagame development/potential and tournament placements justify his drop, but something still feels wrong about his spot.

2) ICs and Wario are now where they should be. Good.

3) Pit: Some viable reasons have been brought up, but I'm still not buying it (and didn't someone from the BBR say that last minute voting by east coast BBR members caused several characters to be higher than where they should be?). Anyways, TL should at least be in front of him, and arguably ZSS.

4) Zelda: ...yikes. She deserved a drop, but not the largest one in the history of tier lists. At least Ganon is in the right spot now.

5) MK planking - not okay.

best.lurk.ever.
also, ICs might be up one or 2 more spots next time.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

It's not a Combat Walk. Falcon can not walk across the stage by just holding the jab button if the opponent is in the right place. For it to be a Combat Walk, Falcon has to be able to get from point A, to point B by holding A. No pressing down on the joystick, no nothing. Falcon can't do that. Call it what you want: it ain't Combat Walking though.

In another note: I hate sigs with moving pictures. It slows down my terrible internet to the point my internet will freeze if I scroll down the page. >_<

 

[Steeler]

just make it so you can't view sigs in your user cp

 

[Nidtendofreak]

But now I'll miss some funny sig stuff. ;_;

Oh well.

 

[Fatmanonice]

It's kind of interesting how things have changed. Given the results as of late, it was pretty easy to tell where most of the high tier characters were going to end up so seeing King Dedede, ROB, Mr. Game and Watch, and Wario drop was no surprize. I was pleasantly surprized at the boost that Pit and Lucario got though. Both are characters that I've seen as having a lot of potential for the longest time but they were kept down for not having very many high ranking players. (Losing Azen in early 2009, for example, dealt a huge to Lucario.)

As for the lower tiers, it still sucks that Mario's still in crap tier but it's nice to see that Ness got a decent boost. Ike's finally where he belongs and it's only a matter of time before Sonic and Bowser join him if you ask me. Given the trends of which characters have gotten a boost and which ones have fallen, Zelda's nosedive doesn't really surprize me. The more defensive characters have been falling as of late and Zelda's defensive tactics practically make her the character that's the most dependent on them then any other character in the game. Her offensive options have always been terrible and with reasonably offensive and defensive balanced characters like Pit and Toon Link rising up the ranks, it didn't catch me off guard at all.

Surprise, surprise, Metaknight's still OMGWTFBBQ tier but that isn't exactly news now, is it?

 

[stingers]

funny how defensive characters are bad in a defensive game..sakurai just assumed people would approach

 

[A2ZOMG]

Brawl isn't exactly just defensive. It is specifically POKE based. It isn't just hard to approach in Brawl. It's harder to FORCE an approach.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

Brawl isn't exactly just defensive. It is specifically POKE based. It isn't just hard to approach in Brawl. It's harder to FORCE an approach.

Play Big Bird.

 

[6Mizu]

WTF is going on here?

rocket is such a scrub
scrubby scrubby scrub scrub

Stingers is right, I'm such a scrubby scrubby scrub. Also his ROB is so scrubby I totally tree-stocked it.

I have my own particular thoughts about the MU.

game and watch is pretty gay....

i didnt say you were a scrubby scrubby scrub, i said you were a scrubby scrubby scrub scrub...scrub.

you lose to 6mizu, i mean, i didnt even think that was possible

Snapp. It was my Lucas.

LOLWUT!?!

I do not lost to 6Mizu:
http://www.youtube.com/user/rocketPSIence#p/u/10/Y0hZlDFs9Nc

even in a 70:30 MU.

WTF! This is an old vid! I have improved w/ both Snake and ROB since that vid.(rPSI's had it on his Wii for a while, he uploaded it recently).

Daaaaaaaaaaaang you lost to that guy with the Selena Gomez avy.

Is 6Mizu THAT bad?

No! OMG!

dude mizu mains rob, not snake, get that **** vid out of here

I main both of em'!

6mizu is the worst snake ever.

and the worst marth. and the worst ROB, and the worst wario.

I just lol'd.
I'm pretty sure I beat your Wario in friendlies 2 timez (in a row)....and the third I almost won.

Dude, 6Mizu went nearly all Snake at his last tourney.

I could upload my set vs. his ROB though

in which I win.

This is true.

did 6mizu really go all snake? wtf 6mizu, you're a backstabbing liar

still better than psi though...****nnnnn

I play both of them. Also, Stingers don't hate me.

@Stongers:
Yeah, his first match against a Pit he went as ROB and lost and went Snake the second two rounds and won. Then went Snake against 2 MK's.
But I still beat his ROB. With Lucas of coarse.

This is also true, except the very end rPSI doesn't always beat me.

Overall, we played against each other soooooooooooooo much we go even. 50:50.

 

[Inaphyt]

You're right. nothing is gonna happen, but this time they showed easy proof of how full of crap they really. You have a whole buunch of people in this special awsome group that the public can not see it, and for what. For this?

This community is just the worst. I wait to see the day the BBR gets off this nonsense. Metagames and rules would be made better or advance if they keep on with this garbage. I read what it means to be a member of the BBR,a nd you boys don't live up to it at all.

Aren't BRs the reason you have a forum to argue and spit in all day in the first place?. Show some respect.

Oh and actions speak louder than words ANDOR results. People see peach taking a few good metas then you get what you want. So why don't you bugger off the internet and reach god level with peach. Probably to find out *shock* she's a actually a terrible character.

In past editions of ssb, peaches recovery was one of the best, now though characters have recoveries that make peaches look like a joke, so one of her best areas actually isn't so great.

Learn to spell a little, stop insulting people that are doing more for brawl than you.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Aren't BRs the reason you have a forum to argue and spit in all day in the first place?. Show some respect.

Oh and actions speak louder than words ANDOR results. People see peach taking a few good metas then you get what you want. So why don't you bugger off the internet and reach god level with peach. Probably to find out *shock* she's a actually a terrible character.

In past editions of ssb, peaches recovery was one of the best, now though characters have recoveries that make peaches look like a joke, so one of her best areas actually isn't so great.

Learn to spell a little, stop insulting people that are doing more for brawl than you.

I'm not really gonna comment on this post cause I had to read this like ten times to realized, that you are not serious with that you just said here. You can't be.

 

[humble]

I'm not really gonna comment on this post cause I had to read this like ten times to realized, that you are not serious with that you just said here. You can't be.

What is this I don't even-

Why is this post purple and not the glaring usual orange? If you don't always post in a certain color how am I supposed to know which posts to skip if I don't care about peach?

Lucas is better then ness.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

Aren't BRs the reason you have a forum to argue and spit in all day in the first place?. Show some respect.

Oh and actions speak louder than words ANDOR results. People see peach taking a few good metas then you get what you want. So why don't you bugger off the internet and reach god level with peach. Probably to find out *shock* she's a actually a terrible character.

In past editions of ssb, peaches recovery was one of the best, now though characters have recoveries that make peaches look like a joke, so one of her best areas actually isn't so great.

Learn to spell a little, stop insulting people that are doing more for brawl than you.

****, another grammar scrub.

I'll say this again: IT'S THE **** INTERNET. If you understand what they mean it doesn't matter how it's typed.

You ppl need to stop being goodie goodie two shoes and GROW UP! You maining Big Bird doesn't make this any better. Peach is a solid character, you'd know this if you played A LOT of GOOD ones like I have (lost to 'em all, but beat 'em in the end).

 

[da K.I.D.]

humble needs to take a slice of humble pie right now... lucas is DEFINITELY NOT better than ness.

dark changes his posting form every few months or so.

inaph: other than the point about peaches recovery, which I had never thought of before, your post is pretty off. DP has done a lot for the character and by transition, the game.

GL: im pretty sure he only brought up the grammar thing to add to his slight trolling of DP, if he hadnt had a legit point to make about peach, he probably wouldnt have brought that up.

and LOLLERSKATEZ AT 6MIZU

TOO GOODZ.

 

[Steeler]

lol @ 6mizu doing the best he can to defend his honor

 

[CRASHiC]

Dedede would rise back up.

Ice Climbers would rise.

What? Will Fox rise and Pika rise as well?

 

[solecalibur]

There will always be low tiers stop whining from some posts Ive been reading (Well Character X is still a low tier and I think he should be higher), There is always a last place and first place

 

[Shaya]

Talk about 1000 posts ago CRASHiC.

MK is like D3s hardest match up `-`
and arguably its the same for MK v ICs (when I hear things from swordgard that ICs v Snake could be even but MKs still a *****...)

 

[humble]

Every character will rise several places, to a net result of the same list but making people feel good about their chars.

KID you need to realize when I'm just trolling, which I was.

 

[CRASHiC]

Talk about 1000 posts ago CRASHiC.

MK is like D3s hardest match up `-`
and arguably its the same for MK v ICs (when I hear things from swordgard that ICs v Snake could be even but MKs still a *****...)

C018 can beat Metaknights, and though he dislikes fighting metaknights, does not call it impossible by any stretch of the word, nor does Seibrik, Lain, Fogo, and Atomsk (though Atomsk incredibly dislikes the matchup), however C018 has said that the ICs matchup is "impossible." That DDD can not approach, that DDD can not out camp, and that DDD can't do anything to them.

 

[HeroMystic]

I'm pretty sure I've heard multiple times that ICs is D3's hardest MU inside and outside of Smashboards.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

IMO, DK should be not mid tier, but alongside Ganon. He's THAT BAD. It's not because he has a lack of options or anything. It's because DK virtually auto-loses to anyone who isn't absolutely terrible and has the brains to pick DDD against him. Like, it's one thing if you have a hard counter matchup where the opponent has to know the character they're countering you with and you auto-lose (like, say, anyone that ICs has an absolutely ******** matchup against), you don't automatically lose the instant your opponent can counterpick you. You just have to know how to shieldgrab as DDD to win against DK.

 

[Shaya]

Dedede going up is an obvious choice when Marth and Snake lose one of their only bad match ups. Dedede loses a match up that was worse for him than both marth and snake, but at the same time beats both Marth and Snake. With MK gone, both Marth and Snake arguably go even or beat every other character in the cast except Dedede.

Circle of love occurs.
Dedede goes up, ICs and Falco go up. However, Falco doesnt actually beat Marth nor Snake, and loses to ICs. Hence arguably his rises are negated when one of his strongest points in the current metagame is his [close to] even with MK.