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The Official BBR Tier List v4 -> Sonic's HA Stall is NOT beaten by spot dodge!!!!!!!!

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YagamiLight

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Kewkky is absolutely right, anyway.

Actual character choice is a comparatively minor part of the game. Tech skill is a comparatively minor part of the game. If you actually GET the game down to a core level then you are going to do well. Doesn't matter if it's Ganondorf or Meta Knight.
 
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Character choice and tech skill are in fact a very important part of Brawl.

I think many of you make the assumption that people have a certain level of tech skill. What that level is I am not sure, but without a certain level of tech skill you will not be able to compete very high at all. There are many things in Brawl that are punishable, but many require a small frame of window to punish. Even if you know what attack to use in the situation, if you do not have the reaction time or tech skill needed to perform said action, then you will not do well.
Only after you have established a good solid base of tech skill can you start going out and questioning what can I do to beat X attack. Because then you will have the skill to put those theories to practice. Tech Skill seperates the low from the high. But at high it become irrelevent.

Character choice is reversed. There is a reason why certain characters are not viable at high levels. They lack the tools needed to combat many situations. At lower levels character choice is irrelevent, but at higher levels it is very relevent because everyone is assumed to have the tech skill needed to beat out those tactics less capable characters have.
 

Shaya

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Peach fair beats marth fair though.
:(

Peach uses bair to beat marths fair... often?
I know its an alright option to beat retreating + rising fairs because you can whip on in with your float, but is it that reliable?
 

BRoomer
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are you guys serious? why are there move versus move debates. actual matches aren't played anything like this at all...
 

Shaya

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Yes they are.

HOW DOES I BEAT TORNADO?
HOW DOES I BEAT FTILT?

Marth against a lot of low tier characters is about how they overcome dtilt and/or fair.
If a character has no answer to a specific move with a move/strategy of their own, they are having a hard time in a match up.
 

Kitamerby

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Marths nair says hello to lucarios fsmash.
In all my years of playing Lucario and watching high level Lucario videos, I have NEVER seen Marth's nair even come CLOSE to countering Lucario's fsmash in ANY way, shape, or form outside of Nair just being outranged and Marth dying at 80 or something.
 

Browny

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Kita, the difference is you are talking about the actual real game brawl, BBR members only talk about super theory bros.
 

adumbrodeus

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Kita, the difference is you are talking about the actual real game brawl, BBR members only talk about super theory bros.
In all my years of playing Lucario and watching high level Lucario videos, I have NEVER seen Marth's nair even come CLOSE to countering Lucario's fsmash in ANY way, shape, or form outside of Nair just being outranged and Marth dying at 80 or something.
Shaya thinks shair (nair) beats everything, don't be mean and burst his bubble.
 

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Yes they are.

HOW DOES I BEAT TORNADO?
HOW DOES I BEAT FTILT?

Marth against a lot of low tier characters is about how they overcome dtilt and/or fair.
If a character has no answer to a specific move with a move/strategy of their own, they are having a hard time in a match up.

I love you shaya.

But, that's completely different. All that is just zoning. How do I enter their zone without being punished.


You guys are debating moves that can easily be beat just by paying attention. peach can just throw a turnip at it.

It hardly matter if fair beats nair because that situation, you both using your best zoning/wall tools isn't going to turn into trying to attack. I mean do you honestly approach with nair shaya or do you try to use it as a wall your opponent can't advance you through?

D.Pch know you aren't going to out right beat nair, a move you can easily see start up. are going going to try and throw a fair out when you can't reach him through it? no. If you can tell he messed up his spacing/timing and a fair will hit will you go for it? sure.


MK's tornado and snakes ftilt aren't about which move beast what its about how to I advance past this road bock. it is rarely going to be one move because the situation can change so drastically from instance to instance even per match up.

sheilding, rolls, dodges, air dodge pivot grabs, tether grabs, punishing oos, baiting. these are all things that you can use to get past strong zoning tools even ones as powerful as marth's nair. it isn't ever really move versus move in this game because you never know what will happen in the next instant.

Mmm... here red sums up what im trying to say better than I can express it. as far as this move versus move nonsense.
redhalberd said:
Metaknight’s forward tilt comes out in 4 frames. Metaknights forward tilt slightly outranges the first hit of snakes forward tilt and comes out faster. MK’s forward tilt is disjointed, and can be slowed down. This means that it beats Snakes dash attack, dash grab, and sidestep. This means the only thing that should beat it is a perfect powershield of the first hit to a shieldgrab.

Snake’s forward tilt comes out in 5 frames. The second hit of Snakes forward tilt outranges all hits of MK’s forward tilt but takes 8 frames to come out.

Theorycraft: “Due to the above data, MK should beat snake on the ground.” ...

....Now in the heat of an actual match, this kind of theory is irrelevant. Now some of you may ask, why? The simple answer to everything that doesn’t match up with theory that you may see in a match is this.
This game is entirely about expectation and speed of recognition, not about what “should” mechanically happen.
Theory craft is often based on what someone “should” be able to do. For example, Meta knight and Dedede are at a standing position, neither character moving. Meta knight jumps and tornados toward Dedede. Dedede has a few options to beat/avoid tornado. He can shield/roll backwawrds/Utilt. But often when watching a match, you see at Dedede player sidestep and then get sucked into the tornado afterward. This happened because the Dedede player was expecting something else, and simply reacted to Meta knight’s movement in anticipation of a dash grab/dash attack. To make this relevant here’s a video where I’ll point out another example of reacting, and guessing wrong.
not move versus move.
 

adumbrodeus

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I love you shaya.

But, that's completely different. All that is just zoning. How do I enter their zone without being punished.


You guys are debating moves that can easily be beat just by paying attention. peach can just throw a turnip at it.

It hardly matter if fair beats nair because that situation, you both using your best zoning/wall tools isn't going to turn into trying to attack. I mean do you honestly approach with nair shaya or do you try to use it as a wall your opponent can't advance you through?

D.Pch know you aren't going to out right beat nair, a move you can easily see start up. are going going to try and throw a fair out when you can't reach him through it? no. If you can tell he messed up his spacing/timing and a fair will hit will you go for it? sure.


MK's tornado and snakes ftilt aren't about which move beast what its about how to I advance past this road bock. it is rarely going to be one move because the situation can change so drastically from instance to instance even per match up.

sheilding, rolls, dodges, air dodge pivot grabs, tether grabs, punishing oos, baiting. these are all things that you can use to get past strong zoning tools even ones as powerful as marth's nair. it isn't ever really move versus move in this game because you never know what will happen in the next instant.

Mmm... here red sums up what im trying to say better than I can express it. as far as this move versus move nonsense.

not move versus move.
Move vs. move in specific circumstances tells you what option beats what option which is EXTREMELY important in developing a meta-picture of which character wins overall, you rarely look at one move as the only thing, in one circumstance, unless that one circumstance means that you can essentially use the move with impunity (think early G&W), but you need the building blocks to develop a complete picture, that's why you have to factor in things like mobility.


No offense to Red Halberd, but I think I dealt with that same issue in a more complete way with my thread.
 

Shaya

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Okay kitamerby.
Lucarios fsmash outranges and outdisjoints Marths neutral air.
On a horizontal plane.
Unlike Meta Knights fsmash, which Marth cannot actively punish with nair, Lucarios fsmash hitbox does not cover his entire body behind him and ontop of him.

Lucarios fsmash hits frames 21-28 and an IASA at 42 (seems the rucalio boards are slightly wrong on this, this is from PSA)
Marths nair has its second hit come out on frame 13 until frame 21, and it gains more kill power the longer its out. Marth can fast fall from the apex of his full hop in about 10 frames. Lucario cannot hit Marth with fsmash above his short hop height.
Marths aerial mobility allows him to the cover the distance of lucarios fsmash (hell, he doesnt exactly need to, lucario cant hit marth with an fsmash from a full hop...).

Oh and whilst Im explaining to you why it works in theory, I do this ACTIVELY against LUCARIOS (fsmash), Zero Suit Samus (side-b) all of the time.
Im pretty sure ive done it to browny too... but he likes to deny him dying to a tipper nair in his supposibly unpunishable move at about 90%.
 

adumbrodeus

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A little confused about how that disproves his point (unless you're attempting to strengthen it), that illustrates that it doesn't reach full-hop height, so you can beat it.


A fairer commentary would be that it's vertical spacing that beats it in that case, not nair itself.
 

Shaya

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Oh, but Marths other aerials arent out for as many frames and dont have tipper hitboxes located at his nipples and waist (and non-tipper hitboxes at his knees)
Nor do they have gain more kill power the longer the hitbox is out for.

Nor are they as sexy.

But the real kicker is, that Marth bends both his legs during the neutral air animation, whilst his fair has his forward leg stretched out. This means that marths general hurtbox is smaller vertically as well.
The sword hitbox is on a similar horizontal plane as his legs are, and from the picture of lucarios fsmash hitbox, it looks very feasible for marth to snip lucarios head whilst being nearly immune to the hitbox of the fsmash (nah not really, buts its close)
lol neutral air.
 

Browny

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THIS CURRENT TOPIC IS ********

its not a debate, its text-based idiocy

Please argue move-per-move theorycraft against yourselves on marth boards.

thank you
 

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you can roll behind him and punish him with just about any character, you can throw a projectile. most characters can beat fsmash on reaction.

that said it's a very power full zoning tool (if you are out of range you won't challange it with dash ins and the like) and punisher (when people don't have much choice in where they are landing)

every move in the game can be punished given the right circumstance... even marth's nair. thats why move versus move isn't worth discussing in this forum.
 

adumbrodeus

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THIS CURRENT TOPIC IS ********

its not a debate, its text-based idiocy

Please argue move-per-move theorycraft against yourselves on marth boards.

thank you
U mad?



Seriously, maneuver vs. maneuver (of which move vs. move is part of) is the foundation of match-up discussions, unless you can make some conclusion about which character generally wins in the maneuvers of a MU you might as well be flipping coins about the results.


you can roll behind him and punish him with just about any character, you can throw a projectile. most characters can beat fsmash on reaction.

that said it's a very power full zoning tool (if you are out of range you won't challange it with dash ins and the like) and punisher (when people don't have much choice in where they are landing)

every move in the game can be punished given the right circumstance... even marth's nair. thats why move versus move isn't worth discussing in this forum.
That's why we discuss the circumstances because those circumstances define how many situations a move is actually usable in. Furthermore, those circumstances define how often you'll get naturally punished by what the opponent is already doing (either the option punishes on it's own, or puts you in a position to punish).

If a move is beaten by literally every move your opponent has, then it's probably useless or close to useless.

That's why move vs. move is relevant, is relevant, but what is more relevant is the generalization, maneuver vs. maneuver.
 

Browny

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I know its punishable. its also punishable by sonics nair if you are stupid enough to use fsmash in a situation where sonic is in a neutral position just outside of your attack range. sounds kinda familiar.

hurrrr

oh adum, ifurious. this whole method is ridiculous

'If you do this, I can do this'
'Well if you do that, I can do this'
'I know you were gonna do that, so i mindgamed you and did this instead'

Im having deja vu... its overwhelming.

Personally, I look at matchups by watching videos of top level players using both characters, who both know the matchup and take notes on what works and what doesnt. Funnily enough, this directly correlates to what actually works, and what actually doesnt. Arguing frame data, assuming humans have perfect reaction time + 0 decision making frames, pixel-perfect spacing at all times and are constantly at a neutral state with no risk of being KO'd, is ridiculous.
 

adumbrodeus

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I know its punishable. its also punishable by sonics nair if you are stupid enough to use fsmash in a situation where sonic is in a neutral position just outside of your attack range. sounds kinda familiar.

hurrrr
So... when exactly are you planning on using f-smash in the MU?

Cause I dunno about you, but my zoning tools are useful because they don't become useless through my opponent "walking a little closer" without having to face actually getting hit by the hitbox.


Ok, punisher and landing trap, fair enough, but doesn't make it much of a zoning tool.


Brawl is still growing, but that's not enough to consider ANY theory.

We stick w/ the reality, then wait for a theory to be proven right.
Not a chance.

Our theory might not be fully developed yet, but anyone who knows statistics we tell you that barely have a "reality" to draw on either, because our tournament results are not statistically valid. Unless you mean reality is frame or hitbox data. And of course, if we don't work on theory and prune the stuff that doesn't pan out, it will never be completely reliable anyway.

Of course, there's a difference between being useless predictively and being perfectly reliable, and good theory, while not perfect, tells a lot of useful information.


In addition, theorycrafting improves your general understanding of the game, and makes it easier to understand both how to fight characters and how to fight players.

Kewkky had a pro post about this just last page.



edit:

oh adum, ifurious. this whole method is ridiculous

'If you do this, I can do this'
'Well if you do that, I can do this'
'I know you were gonna do that, so i mindgamed you and did this instead'

Im having deja vu... its overwhelming.
That's honestly... exactly what most games develop into at the top of the metagame, the better the spacing and other assorted technical skills of the players involved, the more it into a game of "option vs. option".

Hell, I can bring up SF players who think at that level, I personally think at that level for Starcraft, and a number of other games (including this one, though it gets me into trouble to a degree, since I'm honestly not proficient enough to execute it technically speaking).

Ultimately, high level play comes down to your mind vs. mind, and if you can read me better then I can read you (by a wide enough margin to account for character weaknesses if applicable) and are technically proficient enough to take advantage of your reads, you will win. It's a complex game of "but does he know I know he knows I know he knows".

Personally, I look at matchups by watching videos of top level players using both characters, who both know the matchup and take notes on what works and what doesnt. Funnily enough, this directly correlates to what actually works, and what actually doesnt. Arguing frame data, assuming humans have perfect reaction time + 0 decision making frames, pixel-perfect spacing at all times and are constantly at a neutral state with no risk of being KO'd, is ridiculous.
And it should, the thing is it doesn't cover all possibilities, which is why it's limited.

Speaking of which, the things which you state, are basically a combination of MU experience and general practice at the game, except neutral position.

It may be the most important position, but it's certainly not the only relevant one, and that's a weakness I commonly point out to people.
 

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Hell, I can bring up SF players who think at that level, I personally think at that level for Starcraft, and a number of other games (including this one, though it gets me into trouble to a degree, since I'm honestly not proficient enough to execute it technically speaking).

Ultimately, high level play comes down to your mind vs. mind, and if you can read me better then I can read you (by a wide enough margin to account for character weaknesses if applicable) and are technically proficient enough to take advantage of your reads, you will win. It's a complex game of "but does he know I know he knows I know he knows".
Here is my point. And I'll use the star craft reference despite not being an adapt player. so much of the game is doing things without your opponent being aware. trying to create situations your opponent can't react to fast enough. you could have tons of anti, but if they are in the wrong place when an attack hits it doesn't really matter any more.

similarly in brawl there are just things that you can't react to fast enough or things that you hope will work. sometimes they do, sometimes you guess wrong and they don't it isn't as clear cut as up my dtilt beats your ftilt. because even if you have the tools to beat said action it may not be in the right place at the right time.

I think Mr. Browny is trying to get across a similar idea.
 

Shaya

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Perfect reaction time?
I will say just this.
Lucarios that use Fsmash as a anti-aerial zoning tool are prone to be in a bit of a connondrum.
A character like Marth has a 4 frame forward air and reasonable aerial mobility, for Lucario to actually use fsmash he either has to -know- a fair will whiff and that Marth was not fast falling. As I am not really EVER assuming 0 zero reaction speed, Lucario proactively using fsmash to beat fair is coming from Marth jumping (as he cant start to fast fall from a short hop 25 frames well within human reaction speed); there are very few visual dependencies on marth either short hopping or full hopping. Lets assume average human reaction time is 15 frames (actually its around 13, but I have pretty slow reflexes).

Now mindgame potential aside, I jump and the only visual depiction Lucario has to go by is the jumping because fair comes out well before human reaction speed. If I see you fsmash by frame 15, your hitbox isnt out until six frames later. Either way you are committing to a move that by the time I see it is still close to half a second before you can shield (and Lucario has no charge frames; meaning even if he charges he isnt getting any faster release, a lack of a mixup Lucario is capable of compared to characters like MK).
Bang, select a move which has a hitbox out for a long space of time, due to the aformentioned fact of no charge mix up ability, a player only has to have one timing. A timing with 14 frames of leeway.

I pick neutral air because as an aerial it has my hurtbox the smallest, lasts the longest, and it complements marths aerial mobility and fast fall speed in helping punish an otherwise amazingly good horizontal move.
Anyway... I seem to get called out for theory crafting a lot when Im only explaining my metucilous thought process that occurs when Ive practiced match ups.... *sigh*

-

Lol browny, **** son, I was just looking at that video earlier, hahaha <3
Holy crap that video is almost a year old... we are/were so BAD AT THIS GAME
 

adumbrodeus

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Here is my point. And I'll use the star craft reference despite not being an adapt player. so much of the game is doing things without your opponent being aware. trying to create situations your opponent can't react to fast enough. you could have tons of anti, but if they are in the wrong place when an attack hits it doesn't really matter any more.

similarly in brawl there are just things that you can't react to fast enough or things that you hope will work. sometimes they do, sometimes you guess wrong and they don't it isn't as clear cut as up my dtilt beats your ftilt. because even if you have the tools to beat said action it may not be in the right place at the right time.

I think Mr. Browny is trying to get across a similar idea.
Exactly, that's precisely what the mental game comes down to. You predicted I'd use carriers, but you predicted my carrier's location wrong, so now I'm ripping through your economy as my scouts are destroying your swarm.

Not being in the right place at the right time is using the wrong maneuver (which is why I pointed out that vertical spacing won as a better commentary). You should ALWAYS have an idea of what your opponent is attempting to do, if you're wrong, you use the wrong move or are at the wrong place at the wrong time, it's all part of the mental game.


Move vs. move is only a small part of this, but still important, because that's what defines what counts as "in the right place at the right time". In other words, while "does nair beat lucario's fsmash?" is nowhere near as useful a question as "in what situation, if any, does marth's neutral air beat lucario's f-smash?".




edit:

Anyway... I seem to get called out for theory crafting a lot when Im only explaining my metucilous thought process that occurs when Ive practiced match ups.... *sigh*
Didn't you know? Anything that reaches a conclusion that you dislike can be discounted as theorycraft, OBVIOUSLY!


Seriously, any serious discussion of characters in relation to each other is, by definition, theory with the exception of blankly stating attributes like frame data. Hell, even things like "MK wins the most tournaments, therefore he is the best" because it supposed a certain theoretical interpretation of the data at hand.


Granted, theory can be backed up by data (frame data and the like), it can be backed up by tournament results (the best players of X character tend to beat the best player of y character) but when it comes right down to it, any interpretation of character is theory.


The thing is, theory isn't a bad thing.
 

Spelt

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Anyway... I seem to get called out for theory crafting a lot when Im only explaining my metucilous thought process that occurs when Ive practiced match ups.... *sigh*

^ This.

Granted, theory can be backed up by data (frame data and the like), it can be backed up by tournament results (the best players of X character tend to beat the best player of y character) but when it comes right down to it, any interpretation of character is theory.
I've seen referencing frame data be called (over) theory crafting too, sadly. :c
 

Kewkky

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Character choice and tech skill are in fact a very important part of Brawl.

Of course they're very important! But it's not the end-all-be-all. Not everyone that plays Melee will do better in Brawl because of their techskill. If you can moonwalk, l-cancel, wavedash and pivot whatever you want as Captain Falcon in Melee, it still doesn't mean you're gonna win. There's a lot of stuff you need to excel in, not just the most obvious ones (tech skill and character choice fall under the 'obvious' ones).

Character choice is reversed. There is a reason why certain characters are not viable at high levels. They lack the tools needed to combat many situations. At lower levels character choice is irrelevent, but at higher levels it is very relevent because everyone is assumed to have the tech skill needed to beat out those tactics less capable characters have.
This should go without saying.

Obviously top tier is better than low tier. :|

because brawl has been out for SO many years..
What does this have to do with anything? Are you saying that 2 years' worth of research, theory and practice are nothing? >_>

I like GunBound and all (pokes at Softnyx), but in 2 years' time we created our current metagame. Brawl might not be the deepest of games, but it's not the shallowest either.



You know, I didn't realize mental game was THAT important before I saw ChuDat play in person. Through videos, he seems like he's just simply beating people and that they're playing badly, but once you play them in-person, you realize he's actually predicting lots of stuff they do and they're forced to play with an awkward playstyle. Chu isn't even the most knowledgeable player when it comes to knowing what Kirby can do (he didn't even know Kirby's up-angled fsmash kills earlier and does more damage), but he's been a high-ranked player for a long time, and has some fame behind his name... And it's not because he knows he can sideB before touching the ground and at the end of the animation he recovers all of his jumps (a la Bowser's sideB, Kirby can do it too but that's not the point), it's because he knows how a person might react normally to asituation, and takes advantage of it.

Same goes for NinjaLink. There's a reason why he's good with almost every character, and it's not because he practiced them all... There's some universal knowledge he can pass from character to character besides ATs, and he's been getting smarter slowly. I could attribute his descent from fame when he started using many characters instead of staying with Diddy Kong due to splitting time between them all instead of concentrating it all on Diddy... But it's still true that at one time, he was THE best Diddy Kong and no one could do what he used to do back then (pretty much Snakeee for ZSS, too, as well as a couple of people for their mains).
 

Col. Stauffenberg

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Lucario is doing it wrong if he's throwing out fsmashes when Marth is sitting at fullhop height.

It's a good zoning tool against his SH approaches though.
 

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Peach fair beats marth fair though.
:(

Peach uses bair to beat marths fair... often?
I know its an alright option to beat retreating + rising fairs because you can whip on in with your float, but is it that reliable?
Fair is slow and all of marths air attacks beat in in terms of speed. Marth can ether rush you or play a zoning/baiting game. ether way you put it, he can abuse you with his fair or even Nair (Even though Fair beats his Nair). 15 Frame move vs a 4 frame move (with he can dish out 2 in a second)

Bair air is a better choice to get at Marth and deal with his fair.

15-4= 11 Frame advantage Marth has If I use Fair
6-4= 2 frame advantage Marth has If I use Bair.

Bair has a lil less range then her Fair but it is faster and best to getting inside Marth and hitting him.
 
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQroxRnrtl8

So just to add a little fuel to the Pit fire:

A lot of people say his hitboxes and range are small, and I thought so too, but after watching this video I'm pretty amazed at how far his attacks actually reach, especially his down smash and HUGE back air. Pit has like, Marth range, but a more ZSS-like "stabby" method of attacking and less sweeping stuff.
 

Browny

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Welcome to last year

hitbubbles pictures are innacurate. remember that is not the glow, only the solid colour section of the bubbles actually represents the hitbox.
 
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5429-7210-5657
Welcome to last year

hitbubbles pictures are innacurate. remember that is not the glow, only the solid colour section of the bubbles actually represents the hitbox.
Uh, yes I know. I just didn't get around to watching every single stupid hitbubble video that came out, so Pit's is news to me.
 
Joined
Aug 6, 2008
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Even if it was last year, I still cannot find anyone to represent the hitboxes of Falco yet.... Not that it really matters. Knowing the hitboxes really do not seem to help us any.
 
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