The Official BBR Tier List v4 -> Sonic's HA Stall is NOT beaten by spot dodge!!!!!!!!

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Whaaaaaat? When was this found out and why didn't I hear about it? O.o

 

[<π]

I've been saying it in these threads about twice a month. sheik already has one of the best jabs in the game. pretty **** kill set up.

also sets up grabs which is good against all ten billion characters she can grab release to dacus.

 

[da K.I.D.]

you mean all ten characters?

5 of which probably dont matter?

and just for the sake of new discussion, exactly how good do you think shieks jab is? its good but Im not sure that its on the same level as the top tier jabs. snake, luigi, falco... (note, that ikes jab is god tier, hence its non-inclusion here)

 

[Dark 3nergy]

Welcome to last year

hitbubbles pictures are innacurate. remember that is not the glow, only the solid colour section of the bubbles actually represents the hitbox.

this is why i dont like that glowing halo around the ****ed hitboxes. Its too mis conceiving. Im down with just the actual hitbox section not this glowly gooey ****

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I've been saying it in these threads about twice a month. sheik already has one of the best jabs in the game. pretty **** kill set up.

also sets up grabs which is good against all ten billion characters she can grab release to dacus.

Can't all the jab combos just be SDI away and they will whiff ?

 

[Juno McGrath]

he didnt say anything about the combos. you can jab combo and wait for them to SDI out then do a quick dacus. you can do a lot of things Out of jab with shiek.

 

[Kewkky]

Can't all the jab combos just be SDI away and they will whiff ?

Some of them have gradually increasing range (Ike's, Lucario's, Snake's), so even if you SDI it'll hit you. Some are fast (Falcon's, Squirtle's, Wolf's), so SDI'ing gets harder. Others are 2-hitters (like Bowser's, Wario's, Yoshi's), and SDI'ing these on reaction requires you to know it's coming a mile away. And the last couple are multi-hit (Diddy's, Falco's, Kirby's), which are obviously SDI'd, but hard to punish if they cancel their jabs when you're about to punish.

So, nope, you can't SDI easily all the jabs, and you can't punish all the jabs. There's obviously the craptastic jabs that you can punish easily (MK's, ZSS's full jab combo, Olimar's, Wario's, Ivysaur's...), but pretty much jabs aren't all SDI'able/punishable... And with this, I want to point out that SDI'ing jabs to avoid grabs is true mostly in theory.


Or... You could try SDI'ing Ganondorf's jab if you wanna see how not all jabs can be SDI'd out of. :O

 

[phi1ny3]

Snake's full jab combo is another horrible one, hence why you usually use the best, first jab.

Falco's jab is amazing.

There's like an easy option for whatever they do out of it lol.

 

[da K.I.D.]

i picked up falco like 2 weeks ago, and Id say about 50% of my game is jabs

jab as a set up to the grab.
jab as a followup after the grab
jab after laser.
jab after spotdodge.
jab to pivot grab
jab to dair
jab to shield their attempt to punish then punish with whatever. even more jab.
jab to up smash as a surprise KO move...

hell even keitaro time still works as long as you dont yell it out while you do it...

the move just has so many different timing and followup options, its rediculous

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

When I said jab combos i meant the jab cancel combos. Not AAA or whatever but jab > grab or Jab > dsmash or jab > ftilt or whatever these sheik mains be doing.

 

[Kewkky]

When I said jab combos i meant the jab cancel combos. Not AAA or whatever but jab > grab or Jab > dsmash or jab > ftilt or whatever these sheik mains be doing.

Nope, you can't SDI the ones the characters are famous for. Like Falco's jab>grab and Snake's jab>ftilt... Now, Sheik's jab>grab I think you can SDI out of, we'd have to look at some frame data to make sure though.


So, Sheik's first jab has a total of 17 frames before you can act again (hits on frame 2 and cooldown of 15 frames = 17). What's the hitlag frame duration? If a character is hit with a low knockback attack, how many frames of hitlag does he have?

 

[Isatis]

this is why i dont like that glowing halo around the ****ed hitboxes. Its too mis conceiving. Im down with just the actual hitbox section not this glowly gooey ****

Well, there's always this...

 

[Kitamerby]

imo, the best jabs are as follows (includes follow up potential and is in no particular order within tiers)

top tier: Snake, Luigi, Falco, Ike, Lucario, Peach
high tier: Falcon, Pit, Link, Squirtle, Bowser, Fox?

I don't really know about how the rest are ordered, honestly.

Snake's is superb due to sheer range, ridiculous rapid-fire making it one of the best walls in the game just by holding A against some characters, ridiculous KO potential, 14%, as strong as a smash attack in both kill power and damage, 14%, ridiculous KO potential, and is just plain superb in all categories. Did I mention it's ridiculously powerful for a jab? It can be SDI'd easier than Ike's jab, though...

Luigi's is obvious: The jab itself is nothing special outside of being insanely fast with okay range, but the sheer amount of ridiculous, superb, GUARANTEED followups is just insane. Getting hit point blank by Luigi's jab past 60% (or 80% if you're Snake) is equal to getting hit by Kenshiro. "Omaeda shindeiru." You are already dead. No exceptions.

Falco's jab is just superbly fast with ridiculous range and power. It leads into a grab or chaingrab, and as I recall, if he connects with the shortest possible spinny bird of death combo, very few moves if any movesare fast enough to punish it, even if you SDI it perfectly. IIRC not even Lucario's dair is fast enough to get it before he shields according to the data.

Ike's jab is tied for the absolute highest hitstun of any set-knockback jab in the game, but it might as well have the highest since it's only competitor must connect with a very precise sweetspot in order to match it. It's very fast with very nice range, and it does a whopping 16% all by itself with almost no hope for SDI. 16% in 3 frames. That is bull****. Plus it can even kill at high %s, but not as easily as Snake's.

Lucario's jab is top tier due to sheer bias on my part. It's probably high tier honestly. Anyways, it's mainly considered to be so amazing for a few reasons. The first is its superb disjoint. While it's actual range from a standing position is similar to regular jabs like Ike or Snake, it's sheer superb disjoint is comparable to a sword character, and just like the rest of Lucario's aura moves, the disjoint cannot clank with any move in the game, just like Meta Knight. However, also like Lucario's aura moves, if a hitbox somehow gets past the disjoint, he has a clank-able hitbox on his body, meaning his jab has double protection and will be still able to clank with moves that outrange his jab and/or use his jab to beat out projectiles. The second reason his jab is amazing is because of the sheer damage output at high %. Lucario gets stronger at high %, and eventually his jab gets to the point where it alone can do superb damage on par with the strongest jabs in the game. The third reason his jab is amazing is because of how hard it is to SDI. Since Lucario moves forwards like Ike does, his Jab is very, very hard to SDI away from. The last reason his jab is amazing though is the sheer amount of hitstun it puts its victims under. If you hit with the aura portion of Lucario's attack, Lucario's jab pops them up like Luigi's and has quite a bit of stun, usually enough for a grab/dash grab. If they react too slowly, you can also use a Force Palm if they shield, or a Ftilt if they don't, or if you predict a spot dodge due to baiting with Force Palm, you can even get a smash out. However, while mindgames are good, this alone isn't what I mean by hitstun. Lucario's jab has a super sweetspot on his body that if you connect with, sends opponents a small distance away with a whopping 12-16 frames of frame advantage as a minimum on Mario, meaning that floatier characters than Mario will get even more. This is absolutely absurd, and means Lucario can truly combo into kill moves like Force Palm out of a sweetspotted jab, which is just superb. <3 Sadly, Lucario's jab is a little slow to come out compared to most jabs, taking a whopping 6 frames to come out. :\

Peach is top due to absolute ******** range in 2 frames, plus auto-grab if she wants to. I can't stress how absolutely stupid Peach's jab range is for a 2 frame move. The first hit is around the exact same distance as Lucario's ftilt. The second hit OUTRANGES Lucario's Ftilt. That is absolutely ABSURD. She leans in so far and her hand grows to absurd sizes. It's just so dang stupid how amazingly far this reaches from a standing position, and it generally goes straight into a grab too! And if that wasn't enough, it's a 2 frame jab, which is even MORE ridiculous. 2 frame move that reaches STUPIDLY FAR and guarantees a grab? That's just insane.

Falcon's jab is just ridiculously fast with lots of hitstun, is basically unpunishable on block, acceptable range, and it can rack up damage quickly when combined with jab canceling (out of first jab for a grab, or the knee for more jabs). It's just a very good example of a stellar jab.

Pit's jab is just superb for a bunch of reasons. First of all, it has ridiculous range. Not as much as Peach's mind you (barely less iirc), but it's still amazing. It also has even more of a disjoint than Lucario's, which is just absurd. It's absurdly ranged and disjointed for a jab. Secondly, it's the only jab that can both be used as a 3-hit combo AND a multihit barrage, both of which have equally insane range and are pretty safe, with good damage output. It's sort of slow at 5 frames, though.

Also I'm getting tired, so I'll summarize the rest.

Link: good hitstun + good range + nice followups. Kind of slow. :\

Squirtle: 12% in one frame without being as horrible as ZSS's, and even has huge range. Super amazing.

Bowser: Good hitstun with huge range.

Fox?: Jab jab shine > combo? 2 frame usable move with acceptable range that leads into shine, which in its own leads into possible combos, including usmash at kill %s on most if not all characters? That's just plain sexy. I'm not really sure if that jab-jab-shine is actually all that though. I just heard it was from someone so I'll put it up anyways as a discussion point. <<

Other good jabs I can remember include DK's, whose sexy "inwards-hitting" hitboxes lead into automatic smashes and kill moves at killing %s, Lucas with his 2-frame sexy gtfo kicks, and maybe Mario with jab-dsmash.

edit: ****. I think I got last post of the page. Someone quote this on the next page when they respond please. ;-;

 

[<π]

forced grab release:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i85euqQhlS4
(character's that matter: wario, IC, Pika, MK, GaW?)

unforced grab release(turn tap jump off don't hit jump, lol):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWjFS8Kn6nc&feature=related
(characters that matter: snake diddy dk falco ZSS Pit D3)

I digress...

jab comes out at frame 2 I know from experience it out ranges most of the other low frame jabs in the game; so that plus sheik's walks speed crazy powerful.

But yeah what we (should) do is jab1->jab2->crouch(cancels the second jab animation much much sooner in my flow charts assume this is implied)->action

sheik's jab is at least as good as falco's I believe it has more range she moves forward a large amount during the initial jab(jab 1) as well as jab 2.

You can not DI jab1

you can DI jab 2 (from what I hear) half way across FD. realistically that doesn't happen. What happens more often is situations when they'll DI through you or just out of you current attack range. similar to ike and snake. like with those two you can change your follow up attack based on the situation.

jab2->grab works at really low percents against character without very fast attacks (frame 1 or 2) since their fastest options tie with your grab; grab armor wins. since dodging and rolling take time they don't beat the grab option. Obviously frame 1 invul will beat the grab but.........
Characters that are fast enough you get to play the will I shield grab you or will you grab my sheild mix up game. baiting characters like marth to upB for example will net tons more free damage than if he just took the hit...

Jab2 doesn't have set hit stun(Or knockback?) so the higher the damage the more frame advantage you will get, similar to sheik's ftilt. at 120ish jab2->dsmash is a true combo that you can only really avoid through smash DI. since dsmash doesn't kill at 120 I just wait till kill percents if I'm going to set up for that combo and watch for DI

after like 140-160 jab2-> dash nair works. which helps a lot with people with good enough reaction to smash DI out of jabs consistently.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Squirtle's jab is RIDICULOUSLY good.

 

[phi1ny3]

i picked up falco like 2 weeks ago, and Id say about 50% of my game is jabs

jab as a set up to the grab.
jab as a followup after the grab
jab after laser.
jab after spotdodge.
jab to pivot grab
jab to dair
jab to shield their attempt to punish then punish with whatever. even more jab.
jab to up smash as a surprise KO move...

hell even keitaro time still works as long as you dont yell it out while you do it...

the move just has so many different timing and followup options, its rediculous

Then there's jab/jabjab -> ftilt for when Nerd knows I'll just try to dair his full jab combo

btw Kita no, at first we thought lucario dair couldn't punish but we found out otherwise.

Like I said, a frame 2 huge range+windbox jab is amazing.

 

[<π]

it doesn't true combo into any of those in my experience though

 

[phi1ny3]

Yeah it's options are so easy though lol, most of them are pretty rewarding (either tons of damage or space resetting for more camping).

 

[Loota]

A little confused about how that disproves his point (unless you're attempting to strengthen it), that illustrates that it doesn't reach full-hop height, so you can beat it.


A fairer commentary would be that it's vertical spacing that beats it in that case, not nair itself.

Nah, I just thought the picture was hilarious and it would fit there. Just look at that hitbox yelling "GET OUT OF MAI SPACESHIP!" o_O

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I thought the only move in the game that couldn't be SDI was falcon's knee....all these jabs cancel things seems like they should be able to be sdi'd.

 

[adumbrodeus]

You can SDI falcon's knee, it's zelda's kick that has cinematic hitlag, also marth's f-smash and the foot hitbox for his up-smash.


But beyond that, if a move doesn't send you into a tumble, it can't be SDI'd.

 

[<π]

the way I understood it you can DI different moves different lengths is that true?

 

[da K.I.D.]

im pretty sure the more damage a move does, the more sdi able it is

thats why after you stale zeldas up smash twice, the individual hits all do less than 1% which is why you cant sdi it.

 

[Ripple]

just more stun, not more damage.

DK's f-smash puts opponents in hit stun longer than his neutral B

 

[DanGR]

But beyond that, if a move doesn't send you into a tumble, it can't be SDI'd.

You most definitely can. (Ex. Falco's "infinite jab", first and second hit of Lucas's jab.)

 

[adumbrodeus]

You most definitely can. (Ex. Falco's "infinite jab", first and second hit of Lucas's jab.)

I apologize, you're correct, but the effect is minimized cause SDI potential is dependent on the hitstun a move has IIRC.


Dunno what I was on when I wrote that looking back on it...

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I apologize, you're correct, but the effect is minimized cause SDI potential is dependent on the hitstun a move has IIRC.


Dunno what I was on when I wrote that looking back on it...

So then I was right and everyone who doubted me was wrong. Good score one me.

 

[Zankoku]

To clear things up, the amount of hitlag on any hit is based on a combination of how much damage the hit dealt and some pre-defined value (which can be just 1 in most cases but is also used to grossly exaggerate hitlag, like with Falcon's knee). You can input one SDI per frame of hitlag. The distance you "teleport" due to a single SDI is based on some other value on the attack (which is also different based on which attack it is; for example, Zelda's usmash has a heavily reduced value, most of the first hits of AAA-combo jabs have 0, Marth's tipper smashes have 0, etc.).

Hitstun has nothing to do with SDI. It's just the amount of time it takes for you to be able to do anything after getting launched by an attack (which is, unfortunately, mostly disregarded when you're sent into tumble; it only prevents you from using a jump or a special before the hitstun runs out).

 

[<π]

thanks ankoku!

 

[Ripple]

its no DMG though

 

[phi1ny3]

So I have a question. Will SBR's ruleset be changed to reflect MLG's, or will it remain the same? I'm sure the latter is more likely, but still, if it were, I can see some possible changes to the tier list.

 

[da K.I.D.]

I would assume that in this instance, mlg is just like any other tourney series (pound, VGBC, tourneyplay, Gameclucks) and that what they do with the ruling for their tournaments arent going to affect the sbr rules.

the real question is whether mlg is going to be counted toward ankokus list or not.

 

[Justblaze647]

the real question is whether mlg is going to be counted toward ankokus list or not.

I can't imagine why it wouldn't...

Then again... Who knows what's going on on SWF these days...

 

[Kewkky]

I doubt it will affect the official rules. The only real difference with the SBR's rules is the LGL implemented, players who don't agree with the stage list will still choose one of the official starters like every other tourney.

Doubles is hurt though. I personally think that "no 2 same characters per team" will be interesting... But considering that M2K + (insert non-MK, usually Ally) has been happening for forever, it won't really be any big deal.

 

[theunabletable]

^...that "no 2 same characters per team" rule is gone, by the way.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

So I have a question. Will SBR's ruleset be changed to reflect MLG's, or will it remain the same? I'm sure the latter is more likely, but still, if it were, I can see some possible changes to the tier list.

I don't think it will at least I hope not all though they may keep the stages.

^...that "no 2 same characters per team" rule is gone, by the way.

The no 2 character may of been the best rule they had.

 

[Kewkky]

^...that "no 2 same characters per team" rule is gone, by the way.

Ah, sorry about that then. I onlined less than half an hour ago, so you'll have to excuse me. :o

I personally don't think the LGL will affect much. There's been LGLs in lots of other tourneys and Ankoku still accepts those results. Plus, the tourney won't affect the SBR's ruleset. None has until now, what makes MLG any more special?

 

[HeroMystic]

Plus, the tourney won't affect the SBR's ruleset. None has until now, what makes MLG any more special?

They're cooler than us. We should be with the popular kids.

 

[phi1ny3]

rofl that higher seed = port priority choice is mean.

Yeah, I think that's going to affect Ankoku's list a bit imo.

 

[da K.I.D.]

I approved of that no double mk team rule (cause lets be honest, thats what it was) so much.

but at least now theres a chance m2k/ally wont win everything. seeing as from where i can see, the only teams that have a chance of beating them (shadow/diem and tyrant/dsf, maybe a few others,) were mostly double mk.