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The Official BBR Tier List v4 -> Sonic's HA Stall is NOT beaten by spot dodge!!!!!!!!

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BRoomer
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First hit of jab is 2-3 frames if I recall correctly, enough to fend you off at mid percent. Also, you're not suppose to roll to "get away" as Samus, she has her air/walk speed to do that.

Samus does exceptionally well against characters who have to approach her, ignoring a certain few. With the ability to force you to anticipate her every move, and inflicting heavy damage all while being safe, Samus definitely isn't bad enough to be a F Tier character. Her killing potential may not be that good, but the fact is that she CAN still kill at near high percentages.

There just aren't many good Samus players around to show us how underrated (overlooked) this character is.
samus' jab inst that great.. fast sure, decent range, but it doesn't link into anything, not even the second jab. it and all of her moves at close range are no longer safe on shield once you get into jab range, and since grabbing is rarely an option at these closer ranges you can see how shields can pose a big threat.

walking and especially jumping are generally poor defensive options since her air game is really lack luster at these close ranges and because she is so slow (fall speed) she is open to a lot of bad especially against disjointed characters.

most characters can kill more reliably than samus. Every character CAN kill at "near high percents".
 

Kitamerby

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samus' jab inst that great.. fast sure, decent range, but it doesn't link into anything, not even the second jab. it and all of her moves at close range are no longer safe on shield once you get into jab range, and since grabbing is rarely an option at these closer ranges you can see how shields can pose a big threat.
Jab connects into stuff at high %!

most characters can kill more reliably than samus. Every character CAN kill at "near high percents".
EVERY character can kill more reliably than Samus.
ummmm i think youre a little behind on the meta-theorycraft. didnt you learn you cant PS everything?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xIyJnrgOn8
 

Ray_Kalm

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samus' jab inst that great.. fast sure, decent range, but it doesn't link into anything, not even the second jab. it and all of her moves at close range are no longer safe on shield once you get into jab range, and since grabbing is rarely an option at these closer ranges you can see how shields can pose a big threat.

walking and especially jumping are generally poor defensive options since her air game is really lack luster at these close ranges and because she is so slow (fall speed) she is open to a lot of bad especially against disjointed characters.

most characters can kill more reliably than samus. Every character CAN kill at "near high percents".
As long as the first hit of jab pushes character away, it's gets the job done. Not linking into a follow-up doesn't make it awful. At close range, Samus can work her way around or away from shields, she's not necessarily suppose to attack it.

Walking and jumping away with great speed are great defensive options. Not only can it generally get you away safely, it resets all spacing. Now whether the opposing player punishes Samus' airdodge or not is totally player skill dependent, all that matters here is a retreating/forward airdodge could get Samus' out of close range.
 

_Keno_

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Her position on the tier list is actually fine where it is, but she, along with a few of the other current F tier characters, belong in the tier above.
Not to mention that her future should've been edge-camping. She's actually pretty decent there. Right Xyro ?

Too bad ledge-grab limits affect her.
 

Kitamerby

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I might argue about sonic being worse at killing samus. Samus's kills are through spikes, bair, dtilt and fsmash. Charge Shot and dsmash at higher percents. Sonic's kills are not to far off from her range.
Sonic's kills are stronger AND easier to land. Sonic's bair and spin dash > bair are better kill moves than Samus could ever hope for. Don't even get started on smashes.
 

adumbrodeus

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ummmm i think youre a little behind on the meta-theorycraft. didnt you learn you cant PS everything?

In terms of forcing approach, for consistent projectiles...


Look, it's not even "this is on the cusp", no this is "everyone and their mother should be able to powershield it and the fact that the average player can't just prove's pierce's point that the average player sucks".


Give me 5 minutes with a Samus player, and I'll be powershielding her projectiles reliably, I learned it mid-match for thunder jolts on Yoshi's, and they're a hell of a lot more difficult then Samus' projectiles.


Samus can trap with projectiles, samus can control space with projectiles, Samus CANNOT force approach with projectiles.

Lastly, I'll quote something to show my point in practice.

This.
 

BRoomer
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zair is hard to psheild consistenly because you don't know when it will happen (if they switch up heights and stuff)

move pretty quick, low start up time.
 

adumbrodeus

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A 9 frame disjointed move that has the range of about 1/3rd of Final Destination is NEVER not quick.
I don't think you understand, the initial hitbox is right on the barrel of her gun, I'm not sure of the exact frame that it actually extends to 1/3 the length of FD, but it's CERTAINLY NOT frame 9.


Since I've shielded (including PS) it on more then one occasion at it's max length, and I've got a 10 frame reaction time, I'll hazard a guess that it's significantly more then that.
 

Ray_Kalm

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I don't think you understand, the initial hitbox is right on the barrel of her gun, I'm not sure of the exact frame that it actually extends to 1/3 the length of FD, but it's CERTAINLY NOT frame 9.


Since I've shielded (including PS) it on more then one occasion at it's max length, and I've got a 10 frame reaction time, I'll hazard a guess that it's significantly more then that.
Both hitboxes come out at the same time. Right at frame 9.

I never said you can't powershield the outer hitbox, but, it certainly won't be easy when you're ANTICIPATING when to.
 

Kitamerby

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Both hitboxes come out at the same time. Right at frame 9.

I never said you can't powershield the outer hitbox, but, it certainly won't be easy when you're ANTICIPATING when to.
That's impossible.

You can SEE the actual thing as it moves forwards out of her cannon. It takes at least 4-5 frames before it reaches the tip of its path.
 

Ray_Kalm

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As I said in my previous post, both two hitboxes of her ZAir come out at frame 9. It's only easier to shield the outer hitbox because, obviously, you will be further away.

Also, Kitamerby, in that video you showed us, the Samus player had little to no clue of how to spam Samus' projectiles.
 

Luigi player

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As I said in my previous post, both two hitboxes of her ZAir come out at frame 9. It's only easier to shield the outer hitbox because, obviously, you will be further away.
What?

If zair hits everywhere on frame 9, then how far away you are doesn't make a difference.


And yeah the Samus player in the video sucked if he really wanted to hit the Marth... lol.

You can shield most of Samus stuff, but she can trap you, especially if she approaches with her projectiles at the same time... so she forces approaches, because she will trap you with all that homing missiles/zairs and followups (grabs, dairs, etc). You have to approach her so that doesn't happen. Samus can't do much if you're near her though...
 

Ray_Kalm

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What?

If zair hits everywhere on frame 9, then how far away you are doesn't make a difference.


And yeah the Samus player in the video sucked if he really wanted to hit the Marth... lol.

You can shield most of Samus stuff, but she can trap you, especially if she approaches with her projectiles at the same time... so she forces approaches, because she will trap you with all that homing missiles/zairs and followups (grabs, dairs, etc). You have to approach her so that doesn't happen. Samus can't do much if you're near her though...
It becomes easier to anticipate the ZAir at further range, that's what I was referring to.
 

LanceStern

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Most of samus's moves are not safe on shield. They have too low of shield stun/knockback to put the opponent safely away from her. Then when they drop their shield, her moves are still cooling down, unless she's ff an uair/bair into a jab or screw attack.

I do agree samus is underrated, cause she can definitely lock down opponents. It's just an uphill battle.
 

LanceStern

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I can agree with that. Zair, dsmash sometimes, and ftilt.

The people rushing in often wreck her, and it's a lot more than just 4 people. MK, Snake, DDD, Falco, Fox, Shiek, Peach, Bowser, Squirtle, Pikachu, OLIMAR (oh gosh), MARTH (plz no more)

Pretty much if you get in, you're in a good zone. She just doesn't have fast enough moves to get you out. Now I'm actively trying to "reposition" myself (run away) and mix in throws and dtilt/dsmash to get them out of my face and start over
 

Ray_Kalm

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The general concept here is whether Samus can be SAFE or not. Only certain moves of her being safe on shield aids very little to your argument.
 

adumbrodeus

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As I said in my previous post, both two hitboxes of her ZAir come out at frame 9. It's only easier to shield the outer hitbox because, obviously, you will be further away.
Point being it's a moving hitbox, which means I can powershield it.


Therefore, saying it's a frame 9 move with a disjoint equal to a third of final D is at best, misleading. For what you get at frame 9, it's not quick.

Also, Kitamerby, in that video you showed us, the Samus player had little to no clue of how to spam Samus' projectiles.
Yes, obviously, but it was, but that doesn't beat the basic point that yes, you can powershield on reaction.
 

Kewkky

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The match starts, and suddenly Samus starts camping. Whenever you get into her zair's maximum range, she's gonna jump and zair you since it's safer and more effective than every single other thing she can do. So, you run in and hit her/shield, then hit her while she lands and starts up her next action.

Her zair is good. But if you give a character bad options and just one single good one, then that good option immediately gets worse Why? because the character will be using that good option every time it gets the chance. Would you say there's ever a chance when you're mid-range against your opponent, and you refuse to zair because you have some other better less-punishable option? If you guys are saying that you can't shield the zair ON REACTION because of when she can fire it at any height in a short-hop, then you need to get better at the MU. Hell, you don't even need to powershield it! The hit does 4% and barely does anything to your shield. If you get hit, well that's too bad you got 4%, but you know, you can just try again since it won't kill you! it even takes forever for Samus to jump and land, the zair can be seen a mile away, even farther away than the 9-frame startup.
 

Ray_Kalm

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no it doesnt...

it only becomes easier to shield the z air at long range because it actually takes time for the move to get there....
More distance gives you more awareness of the ZAir, thus it becomes more predictable at further range.

Point being it's a moving hitbox, which means I can powershield it.

Therefore, saying it's a frame 9 move with a disjoint equal to a third of final D is at best, misleading. For what you get at frame 9, it's not quick.
The match starts, and suddenly Samus starts camping. Whenever you get into her zair's maximum range, she's gonna jump and zair you since it's safer and more effective than every single other thing she can do. So, you run in and hit her/shield, then hit her while she lands and starts up her next action.
Her zair is good. But if you give a character bad options and just one single good one, then that good option immediately gets worse Why? because the character will be using that good option every time it gets the chance. Would you say there's ever a chance when you're mid-range against your opponent, and you refuse to zair because you have some other better less-punishable option? If you guys are saying that you can't shield the zair ON REACTION because of when she can fire it at any height in a short-hop, then you need to get better at the MU. Hell, you don't even need to powershield it! The hit does 4% and barely does anything to your shield. If you get hit, well that's too bad you got 4%, but you know, you can just try again since it won't kill you!
Both of you literally sound clueless.

Yes, you can powershield ZAir, but this does NOT make it a bad move. You can powershield about every other move in this game as well, and are they considered bad?

Kewkky, a good Samus player will not, and should not ZAir you so you can just powershield it every single time. Z-air is extremely difficult to observe and you can't powershield it on reaction, you have to anticipate to powershield it and THEN use reaction. The animation on the move is not telegraphed enough for a player to react to it at long range. This allows Samus to work ways around your shield and movement.

She can't kill you early in any real way besides random gimps. She can however KO you fairly easily when you reach an appropriate KO percent. U-tilt anti-airs out of stuff and is a virtually safe move that has the range of Snake's U-tilt. D-tilt is 6 frames and can be comboed into. Charge shot is somewhat possible to land for edgeguards. F-smash isn't necessarily horrible once you realize it's a frame 10 move that can be angled and has good leanback.
 

adumbrodeus

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Both of you literally sound clueless.

Yes, you can powershield ZAir, but this does NOT make it a bad move. You can powershield about every other move in this game as well, and are they considered bad?
You completely misunderstood, my only point was that Samus cannot force an approach, I NEVER said it was a bad move.
 

Kewkky

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More distance gives you more awareness of the ZAir, thus it becomes more predictable at further range.

Both of you literally sound clueless.

Yes, you can powershield ZAir, but this does NOT make it a bad move. You can powershield about every other move in this game as well, and are they considered bad?

Kewkky, a good Samus player will not, and should not ZAir you so you can just powershield it every single time. Z-air is extremely difficult to observe and you can't powershield it on reaction, you have to anticipate to powershield it and THEN use reaction. The animation on the move is not telegraphed enough for a player to react to it at long range. This allows Samus to work ways around your shield and movement.

She can't kill you early in any real way besides random gimps. She can however KO you fairly easily when you reach an appropriate KO percent. U-tilt anti-airs out of stuff and is a virtually safe move that has the range of Snake's U-tilt. D-tilt is 6 frames and can be comboed into. Charge shot is somewhat possible to land for edgeguards. F-smash isn't necessarily horrible once you realize it's a frame 10 move that can be angled and has good leanback.
I never said it was a bad move, i said that giving a BAD character a single good move, makes it worse. The character will start depending on the move for punishing or whatever the move's job is to do (as is the case with Samus, punishing approaches and mistakes). Like I said, it's easy to shield and powershield because you have time know it's coming... Samus can't zair on the ground, she can only zair while airborne. How can you tell Samus is going to zair when the opponent is on the ground, approaching Samus by powershielding each projectile? When the opponent gets close enough. I don't even know why people would rather powershield it than just simply shield it, since shielding the hit gives almost no lag at all and you can do some OoS option and punish her for being defensive.

If she uses it for punishing, that's nice... But what are the chances a Samus will fend off an attacker with her zair and projectiles? She can't approach, so THAT'S out of the question... But being defensive? At the start of the match, for example? I still see it as a move that has been limited due to the lack of options Samus has to mix up with.

Every move can be powershielded, yes. But a 9-frame move that can be seen and telegraphed? Samus is in the air, landing... You are at/within her maximum zair range. What should you do? Put up your shield and ocne she's in her 'landing lag' part of landing, go ooS on her. And a zair having a non-instantaneous startup will make it so the opponent could use up to 6-frame attacks and be able to punish her relatively easy for her landing...

And you know how you can force her to land near you? Approach while shielding her projectiles, but maintain yourself out of her zair's maximum range. She'll back off to gain distance, and when she reaches the edge, she'll be forced to jump over you or limit her movement options to just the ledge. And even though her best strategy is on the ledge, we have to say it, her ledge game isn't something that scares/amazes me.

Sooo... Samus is on the ledge, and you can get to her. Now what does she do? Up-B predictably? Ledgehop a fair/uair/dair? Zair edgehog mindgames? Due to her slow aerial mobility, her aerial options can be predicted relatively easy from mid-range. Some characters have answers against mid-range characters... Even Kirby can get Samus out of there with little effort, and he's susceptible to camping!


I like her zair and all, and it's definitely a good move (give it to MK and see how long it takes for him to get banned)... But give it to a bad character, and there's only so much the move can be used for, and how well it can be used.
 

adumbrodeus

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Having to powershield consistently forces you to approach.
No, it forces me to a pick and option at that point. Useful if you can take advantage of your opponent picking that option, but spaced, there's no reason to.


The shield pressure is negated by the powershield, beyond that you have nothing to make me even think of an approach.
 

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Powershield negates forcing approaches, yes, but you're the one risking damage by not approaching.

Powershield is great and all, but you're making it sound overpowered.
 

Kewkky

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Powershielding IS overpowered, as crappy as that may sound. With a 3-frame window and easier than (more or less) 3/4ths of ATs, I find it one of the easiest universal techs in the game.
 

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I never said it was a bad move, i said that giving a BAD character a single good move, makes it worse. The character will start depending on the move for punishing or whatever the move's job is to do (as is the case with Samus, punishing approaches and mistakes).
The character doesn't have a mind of it's own, so it can't start "depending" on ZAir for whatever you're saying. We're discussing how far a player can take his character here, not vice-versa.

Like I said, it's easy to shield and powershield because you have time know it's coming... Samus can't zair on the ground, she can only zair while airborne. How can you tell Samus is going to zair when the opponent is on the ground, approaching Samus by powershielding each projectile? When the opponent gets close enough. I don't even know why people would rather powershield it than just simply shield it, since shielding the hit gives almost no lag at all and you can do some OoS option and punish her for being defensive.
All you've said here is that you can deal with ZAir. Well, statement would be true, but you have to approach her in most matchups since ZAir WILL hit you due to the limits of reaction time. The only way you can powershield this move is by predicting precisely when she will use it (anticipating), which is no simple task, and you're pretty much left with 1-2 options when you are in the air and the Samus is any good. Yeah if in theory you could powershield all her camping moves, she wouldn't be a threat, but you can't.

If she uses it for punishing, that's nice... But what are the chances a Samus will fend off an attacker with her zair and projectiles? She can't approach, so THAT'S out of the question... But being defensive? At the start of the match, for example? I still see it as a move that has been limited due to the lack of options Samus has to mix up with.
A good Samus forces you to be inherently defensive with Bombs/ZAir/Missles, and if she calls a dodge or commitment to most ground moves, it does you harm.

Every move can be powershielded, yes. But a 9-frame move that can be seen and telegraphed? Samus is in the air, landing... You are at/within her maximum zair range. What should you do? Put up your shield and ocne she's in her 'landing lag' part of landing, go ooS on her. And a zair having a non-instantaneous startup will make it so the opponent could use up to 6-frame attacks and be able to punish her relatively easy for her landing...
Here you're expecting the Samus player to be stupid enough to ZAir you within landing. This won't happen all, if most of the time.

And you know how you can force her to land near you? Approach while shielding her projectiles, but maintain yourself out of her zair's maximum range. She'll back off to gain distance, and when she reaches the edge, she'll be forced to jump over you or limit her movement options to just the ledge. And even though her best strategy is on the ledge, we have to say it, her ledge game isn't something that scares/amazes me.
She won't be forced to jump with the new ruleset, but even if you say she's forced to jump "around" you, she's not getting punished unless she goes for a predictable landing. But she's not FORCED into jumping because of her air/stall speed & game. Also, her ledge game IS amazing. I don't know where you're coming from.

Sooo... Samus is on the ledge, and you can get to her. Now what does she do? Up-B predictably? Ledgehop a fair/uair/dair? Zair edgehog mindgames? Due to her slow aerial mobility, her aerial options can be predicted relatively easy from mid-range. Some characters have answers against mid-range characters... Even Kirby can get Samus out of there with little effort, and he's susceptible to camping!
Her ledge game is relatively safe. As long as you can get back on stage with her fine, she has a great ledge game. Attacking from the ledge isn't forced upon you.

I like her zair and all, and it's definitely a good move (give it to MK and see how long it takes for him to get banned)... But give it to a bad character, and there's only so much the move can be used for, and how well it can be used.
I really hope you haven't based your whole perspective of Samus on ZAir alone.
 

adumbrodeus

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Powershield negates forcing approaches, yes, but you're the one risking damage by not approaching.

Powershield is great and all, but you're making it sound overpowered.
If you can do it consistently to the point where it's not a risk at all, then it becomes overpowered.


And honestly, it's not hard to reach that level of efficiency with extremely telegraphed projectiles.
 

Kewkky

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The character doesn't have a mind of it's own, so it can't start "depending" on ZAir for whatever you're saying. We're discussing how far a player can take his character here, not vice-versa.
There's only so much her other moves can do. Zair is really her safest move, and has the best range:speed:safety balance out of all her moves. AND Samus is known for her zair games. I'm pretty sure that all Samus mains depend on zair to make their opponents make mistakes (how no one wants to get hit by it, % is still %), in fact I'm sure her placement in the tier list is because she has a very nice anti-air move... But what if the opponent is approaching from the ground?

since ZAir WILL hit you due to the limits of reaction time.
What if Samus is hit first and is at a considerable disadvantage? What will happen then? How will zair help her regain the lead? I only see it hitting people when they're at a considerable disadvantage themselves, and stopped playing overly defensive while attempting to approach Samus. See, her zair would ALSO be better if she could change it into a great shield-punishing move, like a grab (something TL and Link can do) or something.

A good Samus forces you to be inherently defensive with Bombs/ZAir/Missles, and if she calls a dodge or commitment to most ground moves, it does you harm.
A good (insert character) main will force the opponent to (insert risky action). I've heard this all the time, and quite frankly, I dislike the argument. That's usually how people argue in MU discussions, and how they try to shrug off the opposing arguments. Well, wanna know something? A good opponent will know when the Samus is gonna zair and avoid it/punish it, just like how good players airdodge through MK's 2-frame uair/~5 frame aerial/grounded upB, or avoid Snake's utilt/ftilt.

Here you're expecting the Samus player to be stupid enough to ZAir you within landing. This won't happen all, if most of the time.
The OoS option will still hit Samus while she's in her "landing lag". If the opponent shields near Samus, what can she do? If she hits the shield, she eats an OoS option, and as soon as she lands she eats an OoS option. She doesn't even have a powerful move to eat through shields, she literally is doomes to getting punished if she lands while the opponents are within zair range. They shield, look at Samus, then hit her once she touches the ground.

She won't be forced to jump with the new ruleset, but even if you say she's forced to jump "around" you, she's not getting punished unless she goes for a predictable landing. But she's not FORCED into jumping because of her air/stall speed & game. Also, her ledge game IS amazing. I don't know where you're coming from.
But all of her landings are predictable. Her slow aerial movement and slow falling speed gives players some time to think of what they're gonna do. Once Samus is close enough to do an aerial/zair, opponents will shield at the maximum range (if they know the MU), and Samus will be shut down and punished for jumping. And she WILL be forced to jump because of the LGL in MLG's ruleset, since she can't live on the ledges anymore.

Her ledge is relatively safe. As long as you can get back on stage with her fine, she has a great ledge game. Attacking from the ledge isn't forced upon you.
Unless the tourney has an LGL and the opponent forced Samus to regrab a lot by feinting approaches.

I really hope you haven't based your whole perspective on Samus on ZAir alone.
I'm just saying, just like Wolf is to bair, Diddy is to bananas, Kirby is to bair, and ICs are to grabs... Samus is to zair.
 

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As I said in my previous post, both two hitboxes of her ZAir come out at frame 9. It's only easier to shield the outer hitbox because, obviously, you will be further away.
Yeah, that's exactly what I meant. At max range it's easier to powershield. <<

Also, Kitamerby, in that video you showed us, the Samus player had little to no clue of how to spam Samus' projectiles.
In all honesty, I did NOT intend for that video to be taken seriously at all. I just thought it was funny, so I posted it.
 

Ray_Kalm

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There's only so much her other moves can do. Zair is really her safest move, and has the best range:speed:safety balance out of all her moves. AND Samus is known for her zair games. I'm pretty sure that all Samus mains depend on zair to make their opponents make mistakes (how no one wants to get hit by it, % is still %), in fact I'm sure her placement in the tier list is because she has a very nice anti-air move... But what if the opponent is approaching from the ground?
ZAir alone doesn't make her the character she is, just as how tornado or shuttle loop doesn't make Metaknight the character he is. Samus mains don't just rely on ZAir, because ZAir won't be her solution to everything.


What if Samus is hit first and is at a considerable disadvantage? What will happen then? How will zair help her regain the lead? I only see it hitting people when they're at a considerable disadvantage themselves, and stopped playing overly defensive while attempting to approach Samus. See, her zair would ALSO be better if she could change it into a great shield-punishing move, like a grab (something TL and Link can do) or something.
Being put at a disadvantage does not mean anything unless your opponent is trying to time you out. You, supposedly, cannot time a Samus out. (Presuming you mean in term of percentage), being put at a disdvantage will be no worse than having the advantage. If the opponent starts to play very defensively, they'll only make it worse for themselves by not approaching - you can't stay put from a Samus forever.


A good (insert character) main will force the opponent to (insert risky action). I've heard this all the time, and quite frankly, I dislike the argument. That's usually how people argue in MU discussions, and how they try to shrug off the opposing arguments. Well, wanna know something? A good opponent will know when the Samus is gonna zair and avoid it/punish it, just like how good players airdodge through MK's 2-frame uair/~5 frame aerial/grounded upB, or avoid Snake's utilt/ftilt.
What I said was a true fact. To me it seems your arguments are just based on what you think, since everything you're saying is so "presumed" like.


The OoS option will still hit Samus while she's in her "landing lag". If the opponent shields near Samus, what can she do? If she hits the shield, she eats an OoS option, and as soon as she lands she eats an OoS option. She doesn't even have a powerful move to eat through shields, she literally is doomes to getting punished if she lands while the opponents are within zair range. They shield, look at Samus, then hit her once she touches the ground.
What are you trying to say here? That the Samus will input a move upon landing? There are ways to work around landing punishment. If an opponent shields near Samus she does NOT - note the keyword - have to attack it.


But all of her landings are predictable. Her slow aerial movement and slow falling speed gives players some time to think of what they're gonna do. Once Samus is close enough to do an aerial/zair, opponents will shield at the maximum range (if they know the MU), and Samus will be shut down and punished for jumping. And she WILL be forced to jump because of the LGL in MLG's ruleset, since she can't live on the ledges anymore.
First off, Samus does not have slow aerial movement. Secondly, her falling speed is more helpful to her than it isn't, it's also more helpful to her in the scenario you're providing me with. Her options aren't shut down as easily as you're describing them to be.


Unless the tourney has an LGL and the opponent forced Samus to regrab a lot by feinting approaches.
These cases are rare. Even a 30 grab limit would be enough to get whatever done.

I'm just saying, just like Wolf is to bair, Diddy is to bananas, Kirby is to bair, and ICs are to grabs... Samus is to zair.
Yes, her ZAir makes up more of her game and her character than her other moves, but her other moves play a huge role along with her ZAir, and her ZAir isn't as easily shutdown as you're presuming it is.

Adumbrodeus, powershielding forces you to halt then input a valid move. While it does negate forced approaches, it stops you from doing something.

Samus is forcing you to powershield, you're not powershielding because you want to. And a powershield will still cause you to approach if all you could do is stop a certain move from hitting you.
 
D

Deleted member

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WTF!
Just because samus is in zair range does not mean she will zair. Its a good move, it isnt spammable a lot of the time though. its a spacer and a follow up move, thats what it is good for. Its not like "samus has all bad moves except zair"
Samus would be very good if she had reliable kill moves (very good being relative to where she is now).
Missles, both homing and super, are essential to her game and allow for a ton of pressure in conjunction with zair. Samus should not be spacing predictably, and she has the advantage of being able to force reactions and have time to punish.

Its not comparable to kirbys back air and wolfs bair and really any of those moves because it:
Can only be used mid range or further (assuming you are SH zairing on stage), and it is not really a fantastic punisher.

Ics are known for their grabs, even though they probably are half their game, because the fear of getting grabbed is sogreat.
Samus spaces with zair missles and tilts, and tries to get in some strings.

FYI, samus' fair and uair both autocancel from any point (if not, almost every point). They ttrue combo into things, and fast fall up air combos into fsmash up to very very high percents.
 

da K.I.D.

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id just like to point out to ABD that powershielding isnt the end all be all, since it doesnt actually accomplish anything.

the psychology of players doesnt allow "powershield all of samus' projectiles so you dont have to approach" to be a valid line of thought.
 

Kinzer

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In all honesty, I did NOT intend for that video to be taken seriously at all. I just thought it was funny, so I posted it.
Did you even notice that he didn't noticed that it was a CPU playing Samus?

Uhm yeah, I have nothing relevant to contribute; except that this tier list sickens me in specific place but I'd rather spare everybody my flames. Otherwise I actually agree with something like MK in his own tier above the rest of the cast, yada yada yada.
 

adumbrodeus

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Adumbrodeus, powershielding forces you to halt then input a valid move. While it does negate forced approaches, it stops you from doing something.
Yes, it does, but the question is, do I care? The answer is, not really.

Samus is forcing you to powershield, you're not powershielding becase you want to. And a powershield will still cause you to approach if all you could do is stop a certain move from hitting you.
Why?

Seriously, there's no significant pressure here, you need actual pressure to force an approach if you're not at a percent lead.

You can control space, you can create traps, but not force an approach.



id just like to point out to ABD that powershielding isnt the end all be all, since it doesnt actually accomplish anything.

the psychology of players doesnt allow "powershield all of samus' projectiles so you dont have to approach" to be a valid line of thought.
Why?

Granted, my character has extremely effective pressure at a slightly closer position, but if I'm in the lead, I can just sit tight and wait for you to approach. I've done it before, I'm an extremely patient player, and I'm not the only person who would do that.


What reliable powershielding REALLY does, is tells the Samus player that the two of you need to interact in the neutral position to achieve anything (a game Samus generally loses pretty badly) and that the Samus player has to approach you if you're on top in percents.
 
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