The Official BBR Tier List v4 -> Sonic's HA Stall is NOT beaten by spot dodge!!!!!!!!

[Dark.Pch]

So I heard Peach sucked? Idk about you guys but I have a problem with that.

 

[Vex Kasrani]

So I heard Peach sucked? Idk about you guys but I have a problem with that.

Yea, shes pretty awful.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Yea, you would know so much about this wouldn't you

 

[Vex Kasrani]

Yea, you would know so much about this wouldn't you

Yea, I would.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Do explain then. Lets see how full of it you are.

 

[Vex Kasrani]

Do explain then. Lets see how full of it you are.

I know everything about every character.

Good luck at Bum's btw.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

So I heard Peach sucked? Idk about you guys but I have a problem with that.

To answer your question from a while back, she's better than I used to think she was, admittedly.

That being said, while it wouldn't be impossible to do well in competitive play with her, it's really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really difficult to get around certain things, which hampers her effectiveness in the tournament scene a great deal.

 

[Vex Kasrani]

To answer your question from a while back, she's better than I used to think she was, admittedly.

That being said, while it wouldn't be impossible to do well in competitive play with her, it's really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really difficult to get around certain things, which hampers her effectiveness in the tournament scene a great deal.

Metaknight.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Metaknight.

One (HUGE) problem among many.

 

[Dark.Pch]

I know everything about every character.

Good luck at Bum's btw.

Heh heh, is that right? Seems you lack the ability to explain mines though eh Vex. Words like that dont mean much.

And thanks, I'm about to kick me some *** time time. No more failing at tournies for the 7 time in a row

To answer your question from a while back, she's better than I used to think she was, admittedly.

That being said, while it wouldn't be impossible to do well in competitive play with her, it's really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really difficult to get around certain things, which hampers her effectiveness in the tournament scene a great deal.

Is that right? Well I am surprised. And as for your second paragraph. I agree. it is really hard. But it still can be pulle. You have my respect.

Thats was said with peach in melee. yet Mike G (in his prime) and armarda rewrote that book. And She has hard match ups against all high tirs. her easist one would be Falco. One Dsmash is a stock with good edguarding since his recovery is not all that. Now Armarda finishing what Mike G started, people see her different and know the truth that I have been trying to pull with melee Peach for so long but failed at.

In brawl there is no one like that with this character. People don't have enough mindgames or creativity. And usually complain about the same thing over and over. So I wanna be that person to do it. Now if you will excuse me, I have a toury to hack.

 

[TheOriginalSmasher]

Triforce of lawl......

Zelda should be much higher, Fireballz spam?

 

[Dark 3nergy]

Metaknight.

I like this answer. Short, sweet and if it aint a 45:55 match up it's probably 35:65

ne: color correction

 

[da K.I.D.]

Why?

Granted, my character has extremely effective pressure at a slightly closer position, but if I'm in the lead, I can just sit tight and wait for you to approach. I've done it before, I'm an extremely patient player, and I'm not the only person who would do that.


What reliable powershielding REALLY does, is tells the Samus player that the two of you need to interact in the neutral position to achieve anything (a game Samus generally loses pretty badly) and that the Samus player has to approach you if you're on top in percents.

when you are talking about spammy characters, (pit, samus, falco, links) even if you are in the lead, when they can just toss stuff at you from the other side of the stage, it doesnt matter how many of them you powershield, if they can attack you and you cant attack them them back, they will continue in that course of action.

What powershielding REALLY does, is tell the other guy that you are committed to not approaching and that they are free to throw as much stuff at you as they want without fear of reprocussion. if the two character are on opposite sides of the stage. samus can shoot stuff and (for the sake of the example) your marth cant, then no matter how much they are losing by the samus will continue to fall back and shoot stuff because it will always be a better option than approach head up since marth isnt going to hit her back. thats what i mean when I say powershielding doesnt accomplish anything.

no matter how good you are, you cant PS everything and eventually and if ur in the situation, youre going to lose.

I once had to fight a falco on japes with ganon.
I got a stock up and ran to the left side platform, and since I was at 100 I knew lasers werent going to kill me, so I powershielded SHDLs for like 30 seconds. but eventually some of them hit me, and i was at 120. and I knew that if I kept giving him a way to damage me while i had no way to hit him myself, i would end up at like 200 or something and than any random hit would kill me, and I would have gained nothing because he would be at the same percentage due to me not being able to attack him. so even though I was a full stock up, I still had to approach.

Spoiler

I won that game and that match btw. it was a 10$ tournament money match, ganon v falco.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Yes, it does, but the question is, do I care? The answer is, not really.

Statement was relevant.

Why?

Seriously, there's no significant pressure here, you need actual pressure to force an approach if you're not at a percent lead.

You can control space, you can create traps, but not force an approach.

You're at the pressure of having to powershield consistently to multiple moves at once, some of which will come faster at you before you can powershield again. Powershielding has 3 frames of lag, and there are ways to setup projectiles which will come at you faster than you can powershield again, Samus can "achieve" this.

If you just want to stay back and hide thinking you can avoid contact and the pressure of being forced to approach, then you're thinking absolutely wrong. You'll only make it easier for the opposing character (with projectiles) to hit you without having to setup traps.

Kinzer, if you were referring to me, let me have you know, the "CPU" was controlled by a human.

Vex Kasrani, yet you say you hate to theorycraft online.

 

[Kewkky]

The player doesn't NEED to powershield everything Samus does, as I have said before. Powershield the first attack, then shield the other one if it comes immediately after. What's the big deal?

You're talking as if Samus was some great camper, when in reality she SUCKS. There's no good qualities to that character as far as I've seen, EXCEPT an invincible upB and her zair. She SUCKS, which is the reason she's bottom tier. There's no way you can argue she's a good camper, or that she can kill given the chance, or you'd see her right next to other camping characters who could kill "given the chance" as well.

What are you trying to point out, anyway, Ray_Kalm? There's only a few good things you could say about a character like Samus, and I think we already went over them. What's left to be said that will alter our way of thinking about her? Cuz I'm pretty sure that, no matter what you say about her current metagame (which I should know about, because she WAS my first main in Brawl [main in Melee when Brawl came out] before I picked up Kirby and ZSS), the opinion of Samus just being terrible even given the zair won't change.

 

[da K.I.D.]

kewk, we all understand the character is really bad, but you are stating that based on faulty ideas.

She actually has really good long range options and should you not choose to approach her she can eat somebody up (as can every character in the game when you play the game geared to said characters best qualities)

She SUCKS because once you do approach her and get past the long range options she gets pretty much obliterated by the majority of other characters in the game. and if you arent trying to sit back and power shield everything it is relatively easy to get inside of the projectile wall, and put her in that close range circumstance that she gets ***** in. (most characters can do it with a simple short hop airdodge.)

She also SUCKS because she cant kill. she cant use her really good long range options to keep the opponent away long enough to get them to the percent needed in order for her to use the relatively (not very) safe KO moves that she does have. so since she kills on average at a higher % than almost every other character they will usually beat her in the end.

also, somewhat unrelated but you playing the character when the game came out in 08 has pretty much 0 relation to her current 2010 metagame.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

The player doesn't NEED to powershield everything Samus does, as I have said before. Powershield the first attack, then shield the other one if it comes immediately after. What's the big deal?

You're once again expecting the battle to always be taken in close range. You can't powershield the first attack then somehow always shield the following attack throughout a battle no matter who the opposing character is.

You're talking as if Samus was some great camper, when in reality she SUCKS. There's no good qualities to that character as far as I've seen, EXCEPT an invincible upB and her zair. She SUCKS, which is the reason she's bottom tier. There's no way you can argue she's a good camper, or that she can kill given the chance, or you'd see her right next to other camping characters who could kill "given the chance" as well.

While she does have good camping ability, I haven't argued that she's a "great" camper. I've only argued that you can't COUNTER her camping abilities with powershield/shield alone and as easily as both you and Adumbrodeus have been claiming.

What are you trying to point out, anyway, Ray_Kalm? There's only a few good things you could say about a character like Samus, and I think we already went over them. What's left to be said that will alter our way of thinking about her? Cuz I'm pretty sure that, no matter what you say about her current metagame (which I should know about, because she WAS my first main in Brawl [main in Melee when Brawl came out] before I picked up Kirby and ZSS), the opinion of Samus just being terrible even given the zair won't change.

To clear your and other's misconceptions of her. She's also not bad enough to be in the tier with some of the other characters she's currently with.

Maining a character doesn't automatically mean you possess great knowledge of them. I don't and haven't mained Samus and I could say I have more knowledge of her than you do. If you were actually a hundred percent certain she sucked as heavily as you're claiming, then you would know that she has a lot more than just her ZAir or an "invincible" up + b.

 

[Vex Kasrani]

Vex Kasrani, yet you say you hate to theorycraft online.

wat .

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Share your knowledge of each character with me.

 

[Vex Kasrani]

Share your knowledge of each character with me.

Sarcasm <_< Although I believe I'm very knowledgeable about most things in this game. Was my theorycraft saying Metaknight?

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Yes, along with a previous post of yours saying you hate to theorycraft online.

 

[Vex Kasrani]

Yes, along with a previous post of yours saying you hate to theorycraft online.

Metaknight stopping Peach isn't theory, its FACT.

 

[Kewkky]

I still keep up with her metagame. It doesn't mean I don't use her for friendlies, I have a sweet spot for Samus since she's still my Melee main.

I personally believe that not approaching her hurts her more than approaching her. She can camp you, she can hit you from out-of-range, she can ledgecamp, she can time you out... But both powershielding and normal shielding put her in a position where she runs out of camping options. You can't powershield all of Falco's lasers because they're fast, and has a high rate of fire. Samus has a low rate of fire, her projectiles are slower, and she's slower and less of a threat as a character. Thanks to Sakurai, defensive options are very good in this game, so you just have to stay away and shield/powershield, then wait a bit and your shield recovers at a fast rate. If her projectiles could eat up your shield (like I said before), then I'm pretty sure people would be forced to approach her eventually... But if they have the advantage, all they have to do is shield/powershield her camping, and sooner or later the timer's gonna force her to get closer unless she wants to lose if she's losing... And if she's winning, approaching in a shield the same way people do to ZSS puts a stop to her on-stage defensive game, and she's forced to fall back on the ledge, where her options are limited (even thought it's her best position). I could hug the ledge as soon as she drops it, then ledgedrop an invincible aerial and bypass her upB. What then?

The purpose of my first zair-related post, was to say that a good attack given to a bad character, will make the attack worse. There's only so much the attack can be used for, and given the bad character's limitations, the 'good move' will be limited even more. Zair is a good move, made worse because a bad character has it. You end up shielding it by attempting to shield projectiles while approaching, and avoiding it the same way you avoid aerials while being juggled. It really isn't all that special when you see it this way. If you were gonna shield/dodge once you're at X distance from Samus, it doesn't matter what her option then would've been (even if she doesn't take any action), the shield will cover everything and you'll keep on approaching/avoiding as always.

You're once again expecting the battle to always be taken in close range. You can't powershield the first attack then somehow always shield the following attack throughout a battle no matter who the opposing character is.

I'm talking about Samus. And if you want to help me change my mind, then instead of leaving me in the dark to imagine possible scenarios then you saying "stop thinking about what I'm not talking about", give me some examples of the 'unshieldable' setups you're talking about.

While she does have good camping ability, I haven't argued that she's a "great" camper. I've only argued that you can't COUNTER her camping abilities with powershield/shield alone and as easily as both you and Adumbrodeus have been claiming.

How so? I agree that we can't just powershield every laser Falco throws at us, but it's because of the speed factor. Samus' camping options aren't all that fast, with zair being the fastest in both startup and endlag. What camping abilities does she have that will surprise me and catch me out of my shield, besides zair? I mean, I can literally shield everything she does. Her moves have startup lag, but after the startup, I have lots of time to watch the projectiles close up on me and shield.

To clear your and other's misconceptions of her. She's also not bad enough to be in the tier with some of the other characters she's currently with.

She's down there because she can't kill when she really needs to. The more % the opponents have, the more defensive they play. If they play defensive enough to not die against Samus until after ~200% (which is a lot of the time), we can't say she deserves to be higher. Even Jigglypuff kills faster than that.

Maining a character doesn't automatically mean you possess great knowledge of them. I don't and haven't mained Samus and I could say I have more knowledge of her than you do. If you were actually a hundred percent certain she sucked as heavily as you're claiming, then you would know that she has a lot more than just her ZAir or an "invincible" up + b.

Well, apart from your assuming that I have no knowledge of her, I'd say you misinterpreted my post. By "zair and upB", I mean those are really the only positive qualities I see Samus actually has. Her fall speed is more of a hindrance than an aid. Her damage-racking isn't good by any means. She's slow on-stage so people can chase her down while she retreats with projectiles. Her ledgegame is the only good strategy she has, and lots of characters have anti-ledgegame strategies thanks to MK forcing them all to learn them... I seriously can't see any other good qualities to Samus. And I mained her and still use her for laughs.

And before you sit right next to the "Samus isn't as bad as you make her seem to be" bandwagon, you should USE her and see how it feels to use her. Watching a Samus play isn't the same as using her yourself, you're going to feel the severe limitations to what Samus can do when you go up against an opponent who knows how to press the shield button.

 

[da K.I.D.]

people need to realise when vex is trolling...

and the fact that he hates explaining stuff like this online, so trying to get him to is pretty much a lost cause.

EDIT
kewk, have you ever had somebody do that with/to you, where they just powershield all of samuss projectiles until shes forced to approach?

The answer is no, because samus is never really forced to approach unless shes losing drastically or getting outcamped. if I played samus, I would just spam long range stuff forever and never try to kill, because I value staying safe and not getting hit over hitting/killing the other guy.

 

[Vex Kasrani]

people need to realise when vex is trolling...

and the fact that he hates explaining stuff like this online, so trying to get him to is pretty much a lost cause.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I love talking to people about the game in person however.

 

[adumbrodeus]

when you are talking about spammy characters, (pit, samus, falco, links) even if you are in the lead, when they can just toss stuff at you from the other side of the stage, it doesnt matter how many of them you powershield, if they can attack you and you cant attack them them back, they will continue in that course of action.

What powershielding REALLY does, is tell the other guy that you are committed to not approaching and that they are free to throw as much stuff at you as they want without fear of reprocussion. if the two character are on opposite sides of the stage. samus can shoot stuff and (for the sake of the example) your marth cant, then no matter how much they are losing by the samus will continue to fall back and shoot stuff because it will always be a better option than approach head up since marth isnt going to hit her back. thats what i mean when I say powershielding doesnt accomplish anything.

no matter how good you are, you cant PS everything and eventually and if ur in the situation, youre going to lose.

I once had to fight a falco on japes with ganon.
I got a stock up and ran to the left side platform, and since I was at 100 I knew lasers werent going to kill me, so I powershielded SHDLs for like 30 seconds. but eventually some of them hit me, and i was at 120. and I knew that if I kept giving him a way to damage me while i had no way to hit him myself, i would end up at like 200 or something and than any random hit would kill me, and I would have gained nothing because he would be at the same percentage due to me not being able to attack him. so even though I was a full stock up, I still had to approach.

Pointless attacks are pointless, if it's doing literally nothing that is effective, the two of you essentially doing the same thing, stalling for time, and who wins in a stalling match? The person ahead.


On an individual basis, you have a point, people who aren't good at powershielding the projectile(s) in question have an incentive to approach, but that's individuals, not the top of the metagame.

And honestly, this prove's Pierce's point about how players in the US suck, most people can't conceptualize doing important technical things because "it's too hard". But the fact is, over time, people get more consistent, and it becomes a case of going from getting hit"once or twice every 30 seconds" to "getting hit once or twice a minute" to "getting hit once or twice a full match's worth of attempts" to "getting hit once or twice a full set worth of attempts". So yes, at a certain point of skill it stops being a legitimate threat and is essentially meaningless, that's what you should be shooting for.


Also, spoilers, the platforms are higher then the center, duck in the center and you'll make things significantly easier on yourself.



So basically, against somebody who's really put the time and effort into powershielding, spamming doesn't accomplish anything in terms of forcing approach (unless you're pit).

You're at the pressure of having to powershield consistently to multiple moves at once, some of which will come faster at you before you can powershield again. Powershielding has 3 frames of lag, and there are ways to setup projectiles which will come at you faster than you can powershield again, Samus can "achieve" this.

If you just want to stay back and hide thinking you can avoid contact and the pressure of being forced to approach, then you're thinking absolutely wrong. You'll only make it easier for the opposing character (with projectiles) to hit you without having to setup traps.

You mean using varying speed projectiles? That's where holding the shield button comes in.

That takes time to set up, and the time required is more then the time required to recharge your shield for it, so still on the losing end.

And there's, I dunno, jumping, owing to the linearity of Samus' projectiles except for homing missle (which is still slow).


Honestly, powershielding isn't really all there is to it, the real point of this is that a player SHOULD be able to beat every option Samus has to force approach on reaction, which means that who approaches who is not guaranteed to be Samus' opponent, it's whoever feels the need to approach. Projectiles zone, they trap, but they do not force approaches (unless you're Pit).



Brawl players just need to improve.

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

idc anymore. people can say and do what they want with this but her in f-tier for all I care. Character is usless anyway.

And idk why people keep thinking I am mad when I am just debating here. people assume too much to get cheap laughs over the net that are not funny at all.

But w/e, I give up on everything. I'm done here.

See you in a couple weeks.

So I heard Peach sucked? Idk about you guys but I have a problem with that.

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhahahahahaha, I'm so good at this.

 

[Arcade]

Exactly two weeks. Very nice.

 

[Nitrix]

Honestly, powershielding isn't really all there is to it, the real point of this is that a player SHOULD be able to beat every option Samus has to force approach on reaction, which means that who approaches who is not guaranteed to be Samus' opponent, it's whoever feels the need to approach. Projectiles zone, they trap, but they do not force approaches (unless you're Pit).

I am curious, what makes Pit's arrows the only projectile capable of forcing approaches?

 

[Ray_Kalm]

I still keep up with her metagame. It doesn't mean I don't use her for friendlies, I have a sweet spot for Samus since she's still my Melee main.

Doesn't seem like it.

I personally believe that not approaching her hurts her more than approaching her. She can camp you, she can hit you from out-of-range, she can ledgecamp, she can time you out... But both powershielding and normal shielding put her in a position where she runs out of camping options. You can't powershield all of Falco's lasers because they're fast, and has a high rate of fire. Samus has a low rate of fire, her projectiles are slower, and she's slower and less of a threat as a character. Thanks to Sakurai, defensive options are very good in this game, so you just have to stay away and shield/powershield, then wait a bit and your shield recovers at a fast rate. If her projectiles could eat up your shield (like I said before), then I'm pretty sure people would be forced to approach her eventually... But if they have the advantage, all they have to do is shield/powershield her camping, and sooner or later the timer's gonna force her to get closer unless she wants to lose if she's losing... And if she's winning, approaching in a shield the same way people do to ZSS puts a stop to her on-stage defensive game, and she's forced to fall back on the ledge, where her options are limited (even thought it's her best position). I could hug the ledge as soon as she drops it, then ledgedrop an invincible aerial and bypass her upB. What then?

No. Approaching her will hurt her more than not approaching her because she becomes more vulnerable to attacks along with close range threat, but that does not mean that approaching her is unfavorable to her.

For example, when she lays a bomb, it becomes detrimental to approach and pressure her. If it explodes on you, she probably gets a combo, and it essentially forces you to move away or shield if you're in close range but are not able to punish her.

When an opposing character does not approach her, she is not limited to camping, she can work ways around most options that character will have/do to avoid her. Also, powershielding Samus' moves other than ZAir actually puts you at a WORSE place than, say jumping does. I've said this many times. All you're achieving are halted actions, but nothing more. Samus will eventually hit you. I don't know why you keep bringing up "oh, what If the opposing character has an advantage, he/she can just powershield Samus all day long", since it doesn't disapprove my argument.

The purpose of my first zair-related post, was to say that a good attack given to a bad character, will make the attack worse. There's only so much the attack can be used for, and given the bad character's limitations, the 'good move' will be limited even more. Zair is a good move, made worse because a bad character has it. You end up shielding it by attempting to shield projectiles while approaching, and avoiding it the same way you avoid aerials while being juggled. It really isn't all that special when you see it this way. If you were gonna shield/dodge once you're at X distance from Samus, it doesn't matter what her option then would've been (even if she doesn't take any action), the shield will cover everything and you'll keep on approaching/avoiding as always.

Why do you keep presuming that the Samus HAS to attack shields? It doesn't work that way in an actual match. I've already doubted your knowledge of her current metagame.

I'm talking about Samus. And if you want to help me change my mind, then instead of leaving me in the dark to imagine possible scenarios then you saying "stop thinking about what I'm not talking about", give me some examples of the 'unshieldable' setups you're talking about.

Seems like you haven't understood what I said. A battle won't be the following: Player A attacks, Player B powershields, Player A attacks, Player B shields then inputs a valid counter move.

Stop presuming so.

How so? I agree that we can't just powershield every laser Falco throws at us, but it's because of the speed factor. Samus' camping options aren't all that fast, with zair being the fastest in both startup and endlag. What camping abilities does she have that will surprise me and catch me out of my shield, besides zair? I mean, I can literally shield everything she does. Her moves have startup lag, but after the startup, I have lots of time to watch the projectiles close up on me and shield.

You can't punish or avoid everything she does to you OoS/shield. Putting shield up out of no where won't be the solution to stop her camping. You actually have to get AROUND her camping to achieve anything. Shielding and powershielding do have a big impact against her, but since she will force the opponent to shield/powershield more often, she can very well take advantage of that.

She's down there because she can't kill when she really needs to. The more % the opponents have, the more defensive they play. If they play defensive enough to not die against Samus until after ~200% (which is a lot of the time), we can't say she deserves to be higher. Even Jigglypuff kills faster than that.

Your point? She does better than some of the other low tier characters she's paired up with.

Well, apart from your assuming that I have no knowledge of her, I'd say you misinterpreted my post. By "zair and upB", I mean those are really the only positive qualities I see Samus actually has. Her fall speed is more of a hindrance than an aid. Her damage-racking isn't good by any means. She's slow on-stage so people can chase her down while she retreats with projectiles. Her ledgegame is the only good strategy she has, and lots of characters have anti-ledgegame strategies thanks to MK forcing them all to learn them... I seriously can't see any other good qualities to Samus. And I mained her and still use her for laughs.

Her fall speed helps her more because she's less susceptible to landing punishment, has more air time, and could use her projectiles more fluently. She's also very agile in the air, and her aerials don't have much ending lag, and a few of them have pretty good priority. She has several virtually safe moves thathit before reaction time, quite a few ways to force defensive reactions and ways to follow up on them.

And before you sit right next to the "Samus isn't as bad as you make her seem to be" bandwagon, you should USE her and see how it feels to use her. Watching a Samus play isn't the same as using her yourself, you're going to feel the severe limitations to what Samus can do when you go up against an opponent who knows how to press the shield button.

I haven't denied that Samus isn't bad. She very well is. I also haven't based my knowledge just "watching Samus" players, so stop presuming. I'm just clearing the little misconceptions going around here, and showing that Samus is more capable than shown.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I am curious, what makes Pit's arrows the only projectile capable of forcing approaches?

Nice to know people were paying attention.


The fact that you can juke them to avoid the 3 frame window for powershielding, essentially making it a mindgame, where if you shield the entire window, you get a net shield loss (eventually resulting in getting shield broken or shield stabbed), and if you just do if when you think the opponent will hit your shield, you have 3 possibilities, 1: You powershield, 2: You shield it normally, 3: You get hit.


While option 2 might result in a less then net shield loss, you're still gonna get hit relatively often. Granted, it depends on how much time is left, but if you're only up by percents you're probably stuck.

 

[Arcade]

Pit's arrows are also a lot faster and can be held before released. He also has gimmicky looping options.

 

[Xebenkeck]

Nice to know people were paying attention.


The fact that you can juke them to avoid the 3 frame window for powershielding, essentially making it a mindgame, where if you shield the entire window, you get a net shield loss (eventually resulting in getting shield broken or shield stabbed), and if you just do if when you think the opponent will hit your shield, you have 3 possibilities, 1: You powershield, 2: You shield it normally, 3: You get hit.

You know at a distance if you don't want to powershield the arrows, you can also
4. Spot-dodge the arrows. In which case, if your proficient you don't have to approach pit.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Pointless attacks are pointless, if it's doing literally nothing that is effective, the two of you essentially doing the same thing, stalling for time, and who wins in a stalling match? The person ahead.

lets say the word GO appears on the screen and before it goes away samus gets a quick zair on you that you cant react to. shes ahead 4/7%, so she wins?

On an individual basis, you have a point, people who aren't good at powershielding the projectile(s) in question have an incentive to approach, but that's individuals, not the top of the metagame.

Show me a match that showcases a match "at the top of the metagame" that shows a samus getting camped out by a character that doesnt have a better projectile.

And honestly, this prove's Pierce's point about how players in the US suck, most people can't conceptualize doing important technical things because "it's too hard". But the fact is, over time, people get more consistent, and it becomes a case of going from getting hit"once or twice every 30 seconds" to "getting hit once or twice a minute" to "getting hit once or twice a full match's worth of attempts" to "getting hit once or twice a full set worth of attempts". So yes, at a certain point of skill it stops being a legitimate threat and is essentially meaningless, that's what you should be shooting for.

1. Stop dic kriding
2. let me know when somebody reaches that level, Im sure its not going to happen anytime soon.

Also, spoilers, the platforms are higher then the center, duck in the center and you'll make things significantly easier on yourself.

im ganon on japes, and im trying to avoid falco so he doesnt kill me, he has to approach and I can increase the lead I already have.
If I go to the side, falco can shoot lasers and if he decides to approach me, the only way he can do it is by taking to the air, which is massively more managable to deal with.
If I stay in the middle platform, I run the risk of being destroyed by falcos plethora of amazing approach options, but in return I can attack him back.
When I decided to stay on the side platform, despite the fact that he was a stock down he still refused to approach me. and because of that I had to go back to the middle of the stage because even though lasers cant kill you Id rather be in a more dangerous position with the ability to hit back.

I dont know whether this proves your point or not, but powershielding lasers on the sides, is much easier to me than ducking in the middle having to deal with falcos entire moveset.

So basically, against somebody who's really put the time and effort into powershielding, spamming doesn't accomplish anything in terms of forcing approach (unless you're pit).

You are starting to piss me off now. You are taking something that nobody can perform assuming its going to happen and expanding it to be a basic Idea of the game. This is going to be my last responce to you because you arent actually talking about the same thing that im talking about. Im talking about what actually happens in game. and youre talking about stuff that people can possibly conceptually happen when people become perfect, which, SPOILER ALERT, is never going to happen.

 

[Kewkky]

I don't need to answer your condescending post, Ray_Kalm. I know what I know, I apply it, and it helps me. If you thinking Samus is a great character makes you happy, so be it. I'll see how you get past Samus' seemingly great on-stage options with Ganon, the worst defensive:offensive character in the game, and use that to prove my point even more.


Yeesh, I seriously don't understand how you believe Samus is even worth praise. She's so low for a reason. You stay away from her with an advantage, shield or evade her projectiles, and she's forced to start approaching because her camping is worthless. If you approach her, she can play the defensive game and make it harder for you.

 

[Technodeath]

i dont think he's saying that Samus is worth praise.

he's just saying that Samus isnt as bad as people make her out to be.

just my 2cents.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

You know, it'd be better if you lay off presuming why YOU think what I'm saying, Kewkky. You still do so, even after I've told you many times. But if presuming stuff makes you think you're right, go ahead.

 

[Kewkky]

kewk, have you ever had somebody do that with/to you, where they just powershield all of samuss projectiles until shes forced to approach?

The answer is no, because samus is never really forced to approach unless shes losing drastically or getting outcamped. if I played samus, I would just spam long range stuff forever and never try to kill, because I value staying safe and not getting hit over hitting/killing the other guy.

Actually, yes. I've gotten powershielded everything I've thrown, as Samus and other characters as well. It's gotten to the point where the time has decided my opponent as the victor, due to me not being able to do anything but try to catch them off guard. I've tried homing missiles, fast missiles, small shots, charged shots, zairs from a distance, even attempting to make them approach by feinting 'vulnerability' by throwing out grabs here and there... If they won't budge and are intent on running the timer however possible, all I'm left with is approaching... And we know how bad Samus is at that. If they don't powershield, then they shield, and if they don't shield they evade, and if they don't evade they parry. It truly is extremely aggravating to know there's not much that I can do.

I also powershield projectiles all the time, even TL's (which I find more annoying than Samus, and much more effective and versatile), and they have no option but to get close and attempt short/mid-ranged approaches with projectiles, which only work if I try to parry them instead of shieldcamp and avoid confrontation... If I keep avoiding other campers, they eventually start approaching because they KNOW they're not gonna get anywhere, and it's totally not worth the risk during a tourney match.

You know, it'd be better if you lay off presuming what YOU think I'm saying, Kewkky. Even after I've told you many times. But if presuming stuff makes you think you're right, be my guest.

Actually, I'm not presuming anything about what you're saying. I'm taking everything you say as literal as possible, and thinking of examples of what you're saying. Then I'm thinking of what I would do if I was Samus or an opponent vs a Samus, and say what I'm sure will happen.

You're the one presuming I know nothing, and failing to understand what I'm trying to say. Whenever I say things like...

If you were gonna shield/dodge once you're at X distance from Samus, it doesn't matter what her option then would've been (even if she doesn't take any action), the shield will cover everything and you'll keep on approaching/avoiding as always.

... You should figure out that I'm not saying Samus WILL attack the shield, I'm saying that even if Samus doesn't attack a shield with anything while landing within range of a shieldcamping opponent, she will get hit by an OoS option.

If Samus will take 20 frames to touch the floor, and in 15 frames I'm gonna start a 6-frame attack (meaning that I'll catch her within 1 frame of landing, in her landing lag where she's completely vulnerable), and until that point all I do is shield, then Samus has no options but to take the hit because no option she has helps her avoid the hit. Her downB would be a menace if the bomb was like Melee's, but that's not the case here. At frame 21 of this scenario, whether or not she hits my shield, she's eating an attack, so shielded approaches shut her down.

And if she can't do much to shielded approaches due to her horrible grab (I use ZSS who is better in practically every way, and she still has problems with shield-happy opponents), then she really can't punish shields very well. Shields restore over time, and with her slow-paced projectiles, slow-paced vertical aerial movement, and ground game that is lacking in good options, she really truly is too predictable. I can't see an opponent losing the lead ever if Samus spends a whole match camping the opponent out after he has an advantage. She's literally going to have to approach eventually and force the opponent to do something, then punish it... But if all the opponent is doing is defensive maneuvers (like shielding and powershielding), Samus really can do nothing but lose... Which we have seen in the metagame as of recently, Samus being 5th place in tourney results as of late.


So, if Samus really isn't as bad as she is in the tier list, and her tourney results are exactly the same position as her tier list ranking... What, besides theoretical situations, can you use to back up your opinions? I use personal experience and tourney data to back mine up.

Oh, and of course I'm gonna be "presuming when I'm voicing my opinions"... Just like what you're doing, I truly believe what I'm saying, and am questioning your opinion. You're not giving me anything back but condescending answers, leaving me in the dark to start guessing what it is that you're trying to tell me. If you want me to stop, then please, show me some proof of what you say to be true (and not just one single video or something as lacking as that), like Samus getting past overly defensive opponets who have an advantage due to her character traits. My being presumptuous with my own opinions is only because I truly believe what I'm saying, due to it helping me in my own scenarios, as well as from what I've gathered from others' experiences through videos or whatever other means I've attained.

 

[da K.I.D.]

What kewkky said reminded me of something.

I remember that there was a time long ago that people thought Sonic was as bad as samus is now...

that made me smile and chuckle a bit.

 

[Arcade]

Wasn't there also a time when people thought Zelda was decent?