The Official BBR Tier List v4 -> Sonic's HA Stall is NOT beaten by spot dodge!!!!!!!!

[Nidtendofreak]

falco's jab is still better than ikes

U mad?

Higher hitstun, damage, and knockback to the point you can KO with it on the sides of the stage > 1 frame quicker and maybe a few more pixels of range.

 

[Kitamerby]

Are people actually arguing that you shouldn't usually be approaching Pit? Be realistic...you can't powershield everyone. As Adum stated, you have a good amount of options to vary how and when they hit. Maybe you could PS them from a distance, but even good Pit's get stuck holding a charging arrow right next to you. You really think you can PS it?

If you can't powershield Pit's arrows 100% of the time, you can't powershield lasers 100% of the time either.

Make up your minds, guys!

 

[adumbrodeus]

It's posts like that, Adum

ROFLL

I'm sorry, it just happens...



50 lashes with a wet noodle?

The basic hierarchy of Canadian government (in order of jurisdictional responsibilities) is roughly: Federal, Provincial, Territorial, Regional Municipal (regional), County, Municipal (city), Township, District.

Canadians may say "county", if they live in one, but not "state" as their is no such thing. Though, state could be used to refer any country in general, so you're partially right.

Nah, I know how the Canadian government is organized, notice how I said "conceptually it's the same". I was speaking in Political Science terms, in other words the concept state (as in "nation-state") and federated state (which provinces are essentially, even though they are not referred to as such internally).

Anyways, I think you may have missed my previous reply to your post; As an example, explain to me how Ganon wouldn't be forced to approach Samus if he can powershield all her projectiles and ZAir.

Honestly I'm not convinced Ganon posses the mobility or the disjointedness to reliably avoid Samus' projectile frametraps... but that's Ganon.

If you can't powershield Pit's arrows 100% of the time, you can't powershield lasers 100% of the time either.

Make up your minds, guys!

I believe we already established that the difference is that you have control.


I'll get to checking the turn radius eventually, but I highly doubt that it can't cause at least a 3 frame variance.

U mad?

Higher hitstun, damage, and knockback to the point you can KO with it on the sides of the stage > 1 frame quicker and maybe a few more pixels of range.

What about the wind element?

 

[fkacyan]

If you can't powershield Pit's arrows 100% of the time, you can't powershield lasers 100% of the time either.

Make up your minds, guys!

Actually, if you learn how Falco's lasers function, you can dodge or PS every single one without fail, wheras Pit can vary the landing hitbox and time that the arrow is shot, making it much harder to consistently PS.

 

[stingers]

can we just ban theorycrafting from the boards
it's soooooooooo stupid
i think the tier list thread would be 500x better if you just discussed videos of people actually playing the game
you know
the stuff that counts

 

[Nidtendofreak]

What about the wind element?

Never really looked closely at what benefit there would be to it other then the little bit of extra range that comes with it. Does it have a "push away" affect to it?

 

[LanceStern]

I've already explained why you can't rely TOO much on shield against Samus, while what you're saying is true, it's not true to the exact concept and not as easy as a drift.

She pressures her opponent to not make them approach her to close range WHILE remaining in neutral position herself. Her neutral position to her is far away, so having to approach her is a bonus to her when she could limit her opponent's option to some degree.

If this were true Samus would be doing a lot better in tournies. This is usually why Samus' get beat, exactly how he described it. People mess up our spacing by approaching with shields and spotdodging then punishing our "relatively" slow/low knockback moves. And it's not too hard to hit Samus, who is a very big target.

We can punish them in the shield, but not ridiculous enough to stop them from approaching all the time. The one thing that can punish a shield really well is a grab, and her grab is too slow to do that. Everything else of hers cannot produce enough shieldstun or break the shield. She can't run away from the approached opponent because she's too big of a target and they have a fast move to hit you

Your theorying sounds great, but it doesn't work out as perfectly as you're making it seem, and that's why she's a low character.

 

[Clai]

You're at the pressure of having to powershield consistently to multiple moves at once, some of which will come faster at you before you can powershield again. Powershielding has 3 frames of lag, and there are ways to setup projectiles which will come at you faster than you can powershield again, Samus can "achieve" this.

Can you kindly direct me to where you got this information from? I didn't think that powershielding had lag, but if there is frame data about this that I wasn't aware of, I'd like to see it.

Besides, if you're being forced into a situation where you have projectiles that you can't powershield consecutively coming at you while Samus is in range to punish you for just holding your shield to take care of the second projectile, then the Samus player is doing a much, much better job of controlling the stage than her opponent is.

Explain to me how a Ganon does not have to approach a Samus, and maybe then I'll believe you.

The matter is not about Ganon being forced/not being forced to approach- Ganondorf has to approach Samus because he has nothing from far-range that can hit her. What does matter is that if Ganondorf can powershield all of Samus' camping tools reliably, then he can maneuver around the stage, avoiding her projectiles with minimal effort, until he finds a positional advantage and approaches at his leisure. He has eight minutes, he'll enter close-range combat whenever he feels like it. When you have a character like Falco, who has good speed on his lasers and a stun effect that halts momentum, then Ganondorf is really "forced" (as in against his will) to approach. Samus? Not likely.

 

[Albert.]

Actually, if you learn how Falco's lasers function, you can dodge or PS every single one without fail, wheras Pit can vary the landing hitbox and time that the arrow is shot, making it much harder to consistently PS.

can we just ban theorycrafting from the boards
it's soooooooooo stupid
i think the tier list thread would be 500x better if you just discussed videos of people actually playing the game
you know
the stuff that counts

I liked both of these posts.

Is that kind of a contradiction?

 

[da K.I.D.]

can we just ban theorycrafting from the boards
it's soooooooooo stupid
i think the tier list thread would be 500x better if you just discussed videos of people actually playing the game
you know
the stuff that counts

I love this kid.

 

[stingers]

I'm da KID

 

[Kitamerby]

I believe we already established that the difference is that you have control.


I'll get to checking the turn radius eventually, but I highly doubt that it can't cause at least a 3 frame variance.

The control is not enough to cause a 3 frame variance that's impossible to powershield itself!

22 frames to cross FD with a very very large turning radius. There is not enough time to create such a shift in trajectory to give such vast difference in the powershield window without being incredibly telegraphed in its own right and thus... easy to powershield.


The only things that might make them harder to powershield than Falco's lasers is the fact that they're faster plus they come in from angles that you're not used to powershielding from, which means you just need to practice until it becomes as easy as powershielding Falco's lasers. In other words, you can NOT say that it's possible to powershield falco lasers for 8 minutes but not Pit's arrows. That's just a really bad contradiction.

 

[Browny]

I suggest going one step further and actually banning the theorycrafters

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I suggest going one step further and actually banning the theorycrafters

Then you might as well ban like... 90% of the smashboards as tournament thread would be the only thing we need up. Maybe the video thread too.

 

[Shaya]

Would need to ban djbrowny too.
And also all the spammers.
Which would also include djbrowny.

Seriously guys, what about that Zelda?
Third worst in the game?
WHATS UP WITH THAT?

 

[Kitamerby]

Let's ban Australia. They're way too far away to make any sort of impact on the metagame anyways.

Zelda sucks.

 

[Shaya]

Nah man, Australia has done amazing things.
Such as telling you to always charge your aurasphere, ALWAYS.
And they also are pretty much 2/3rds of the moderation team. Mic_128 and I are planning a coup to take over this place. Dont tell MLG though.

BUT HOW CAN ZELDA SUCK? Havent you seen her beat reputable Dedede and Ice Climber mains in tournaments before?
That -9 drop should have totally been a +9 RISE!

 

[Kitamerby]

BUT HOW CAN ZELDA SUCK? Havent you seen her beat reputable Dedede and Ice Climber mains in tournaments before?

Not once! :D

But I totally agree. Zelda's lightning kicks kill at like what? 68% on jiggs? That's not bottom 3 material.

 

[Miamisportsfan45]

Yoshi moved up!

DR? Or what?

 

[Meru.]

can we just ban theorycrafting from the boards
it's soooooooooo stupid
i think the tier list thread would be 500x better if you just discussed videos of people actually playing the game
you know
the stuff that counts

I know how you feel, and I quite agree with you, but...

This is just THE theorycraft thread.

It's impossible to say stop theorycrafting in a thread that encourages theorycrafting. It's like saying "Stop discussing Pokemon in the Pokemon Centre (that was the name of that board right?) or "Stopping discussing Ganondorf at the Ganondorf boards! DISCUSS JIGGLYPUFF NOW!".

Ya know?

Not once! :D

But I totally agree. Zelda's lightning kicks kill at like what? 68% on jiggs? That's not bottom 3 material.

I thought you were serious.
I got happy.

Spoiler

'Someone finally got a little positive about Zelda and realised she's not bottom!'

I found you suspicious.

Spoiler

'He frequently visits this thread... He can't thank positively about Zelda...'

I was afraid of sarcasm.
I read your post again.

Not once! :D

But I totally agree. Zelda's lightning kicks kill at like what? 68% on jiggs? That's not bottom 3 material.

I assumed this was sarcasm.
I got disappointed.
I cried.

Conclusion:
I HATE YOU.

Anyway...
When will that Zelda player come, that'll prove that Zelda is not that bad? Maybe not even bad? Whoever you are, I'll be waiting. Show these *****es!

 

[Kitamerby]

Honestly, I really don't think Zelda is bottom tier. She's absolutely amazing in low tier tournaments, so it's impossible for her to be so low when she destroys so many of the low tiers above her. She definitely has way more options than a good chunk of the low and bottom tiers above her.

Heck, her usmash alone is more than enough to bump her out of bottom.

 

[Katakiri]

I gotta agree with Kita.

Zelda has Ike Syndrome imo.

 

[Albert.]

I respectfully disagree with both of you.

USmash can be easily SDI'd out of. I have done it with Ike on multiple occasions (Another low tier)

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I respectfully disagree with both of you.

USmash can be easily SDI'd out of. I have done it with Ike on multiple occasions (Another low tier)

Like, consistently?

Explain your method. Please. You'd be doing many people a favor.

 

[stingers]

last I read (on the Brawl+ forums where they hack brawl and find out what the developers coded into the game and stuff), you can't SDI out of Zelda's Usmash @.@

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I respectfully disagree with both of you.

USmash can be easily SDI'd out of. I have done it with Ike on multiple occasions (Another low tier)

It's impossible to SDI out of once it's stale. Doesn't deal enough damage, each hit does less then 1% damage.

 

[bigman40]

Zelda's Usmash is only DI'able during certain moments that actually gives damage. Even then, you have to DI down just to get it to work. So, big characters can't DI out of it.


~Mieu

 

[Albert.]

oh wow, I'm an idiot. I must be thinking of Zelda's Fsmash or something...

Please forgive me >_<

 

[Steeler]

it seems like you should QCDI it down when zelda moves her hand away from your side

and shield so you don't just get hit again

 

[Dark 3nergy]

can we just ban theorycrafting from the boards
it's soooooooooo stupid
i think the tier list thread would be 500x better if you just discussed videos of people actually playing the game
you know
the stuff that counts

this is a very important post, that should be reposted so other posters can read it and stop what the original poster asked

 

[Shaya]

Yeah SDIng Zeldas upsmash is hard, fsmash on the other hand is pretty feasible.

Considering that Up smash is Zeldas fastest OoS option... and that no one tries to pressure zeldas shield with god **** dairs (in low tier) and her only other way of getting it often is hyphen smashing (meaning a character has to be in the air above her in lag/being an idiot/i.e. not smart play) or through shield pokes... she smells.

Other than this the only other attacks she actually hits with is dtilt and dash attack (and sometimes some of her aerials) then you can often expect usmash to be stale...

She doesnt DESTROY low tiers at all. If you are thinking early brawl when we thought Zelda was awesome and better than sheik and probably upper mid tier, then sure she destroys low tiers with spam. In low tier she only has a certified agreed advantage on Ganondorf :|

 

[Justblaze647]

Whatever happened to the BBR matchup ratio chart?

 

[Kitamerby]

She doesnt DESTROY low tiers at all. If you are thinking early brawl when we thought Zelda was awesome and better than sheik and probably upper mid tier, then sure she destroys low tiers with spam. In low tier she only has a certified agreed advantage on Ganondorf :|

Which is why you see a lot of Zeldas placing high at low tiers up there with the Ikes and Bowsers?

????

 

[Shaya]

I havent.

<char>

 

[Kitamerby]

I havent.

<char>

Thenagain there aren't many low tier tournaments in Australia, so I'm not surprised. <<

 

[Browny]

theres less people in australia total than USA gets in one low-tier event

 

[C~Dog]

theres less people in australia total than USA gets in one low-tier event

Do you even go to tourneys anymore?

 

[wangston]

Why did sonic move down? __X__ ***** face in cali.

 

[Vex Kasrani]

Bowser places high in Low tier tournaments?

 

[Browny]

sonic moved down coz he was too high in 3.0 lol