The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[Kewkky]

You're doing it wrong.



That's how it's done.

.... Ok...? o_O

Frame comes out on shield 1, not shield 2. Take THAT, thread! *feels victorious*

 

[DoonKoon]

Lol, dont worry Kewkky. Ray's just high right now, he did the same thing to me a while back lolz

me.. and a bunch of other people..

 

[deepseadiva]

so i herd shield comes out frame 2

and squirtles jab is a shield that breaks other shields

 

[Chuee]

I always thought shield was 2 frames =/

 

[Kewkky]

Yeah, 2 frames... 1 frame for the input where the game recognizes what you just pressed, and the other frame for when your shield pops out/animation starts. The "input" frame is known as frame 0, and the raising of the shield is frame 1. There's two frames total, but the input frame is frame 0, so it's seen as it taking 2 frames to start up. When you buffer something, that "frame 0" is done as soon as you buffer the command, so as soon as the game lets you, the REAL frame 1 comes out, whether it's a hitbox, grabbox, invincibility frames, or a shield.

I think that's how it goes, right? 2 frames total, but shield comes out in frame 1 due to frame 0 being the "input" frame, which doesn't have an animation of its own. Please correct me if i'm wrong.

 

[Flayl]

... You guys remind me of kids in pre-school that didn't get addition right until they were explained you don't count the same number twice, lol.

 

[Nefarious B]

Yeah and what Ankoku says is that since the grabber can buffer but the grabbed cannot, the jabs can beat a shield even though both are frame 1 moves. So squirtle wouldn't even need his extra frame to jab most of the cast, but the extra frame probably lets him beat frame 1 invincibility moves.

 

[Kofu]

So am I right in thinking that Bowser's DTilt is guaranteed against most characters out of a ground release?

 

[Chuee]

Yeah, dtilt is guaranteed.

 

[smashkng]

I've played a PT for a short time ago and here is my opinion: Squirtle has really easy time juggling Snake (I've got like 0-deathd, couldn't do much to avoid the juggling) but still Snake hard counters Squirtle: Snake has extremely long disjointed range in his tilts, which completely shuts down Squirtle's approach, Snake has an amazing defensive game. So getting Snake in the air is really hard. Another major advantage to Snake is how early Snake kills Squirtle, and Snake also does ton of damage in very few hits. Definitely at least 65/35 Snake's favour

 

[deepseadiva]

K, Peach needs to raise a tier or two.

New, frame-guaranteed, SDI tolerant, uair combo that works on the majority of the cast - from MK to Bowser.

And can be set-up with a dair.

And it kills.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sF-pxIUO3gE

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=258043

This is dumb. xD

 

[Dark.Pch]

Remeber Meno, you can also set it up with a footstool to up-air

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Haha, my predictions are confirmed!

Peach will outtier meta knight

 

[Dark.Pch]

Then M2K Is gonna main Peach.

 

[Kewkky]

K, Peach needs to raise a tier or two.

New, frame-guaranteed, SDI tolerant, uair combo that works on the majority of the cast - from MK to Bowser.

And can be set-up with a dair.

And it kills.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sF-pxIUO3gE

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=258043

This is dumb. xD

It's obviously very good, but like you said, the nair isn't guaranteed. We can just footstool you (or something else) as you jump upwards (unless they're large characters you're juggling), as you stated in your video.

I'd like to see it pulled off regularly in a number of matches though. It'd be quite flashy for a "Brawl combo", as well as cement the string in her arsenal.

 

[Browny]

lets see what happens if the other player DI/SDI'd hard backwards?

idk its cool, but i cant help thinking of the infamous OHKO on mk with toad saga haha

 

[~RiKu~]

K, Peach needs to raise a tier or two.

New, frame-guaranteed, SDI tolerant, uair combo that works on the majority of the cast - from MK to Bowser.

And can be set-up with a dair.

And it kills.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sF-pxIUO3gE

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=258043

This is dumb. xD

I leik wut I see.

 

[Kofu]

Now I really wanna Brawl Hotgarbage olol

 

[Inaphyt]

I think Zero suit should go up next tier list, she has the speed to match anyone and has a safe long range killing option, obviously a great character that needs more rep. Can deal with mk pretty well too better than alot of other characters.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I've played a PT for a short time ago and here is my opinion: Squirtle has really easy time juggling Snake (I've got like 0-deathd, couldn't do much to avoid the juggling) but still Snake hard counters Squirtle: Snake has extremely long disjointed range in his tilts, which completely shuts down Squirtle's approach, Snake has an amazing defensive game. So getting Snake in the air is really hard. Another major advantage to Snake is how early Snake kills Squirtle, and Snake also does ton of damage in very few hits. Definitely at least 65/35 Snake's favour

Squirtle can juggle the **** out of Snake, but if the Snake is just aggressive with his landing (except for when he's coming from immediately off the side, in which I have an algorithm for preventing him from getting back), it's hard to keep it going until stupid percents. 60% combo is relatively easy at the start, but after that, you can use your stale and/or fatigued F-Air to combo into itself at higher percents. Easy 25% if they DI "correctly", as in, the way that will keep them from dying.

That being said, Snake's tilts are silly. RAR'd B-Air with Squirtle is probably his best approaching option in any given situation. Safe and great range. You just have to be really patient with the matchup and make Snake come to you. If he tries using grenades or mines, Water Gun prevents him from doing anything useful with them and will oftentimes put him in a situation to blow himself up. If Snake isn't running toward you, Water Gun will push him a pretty good distance, which could get him off the level. You can Water Gun after predicting a DACUS and he'll fly off the level quite quickly, putting you in a good position to chase and start something.

Basically, Snake is almost forced to come at you as a result, which is really difficult if you switch between RAR'd B-Air, F-Tilt (it at least clanks with EVERYTHING unless the opponent spaces perfectly with Snake's F-Tilt, is fast enough to outspeed almost anything when used at the same time, and "beats" spotdodges), or grab, which will prevent him from using grenades or shielding every time. Water Gun also helps with the same things that grabs do, since it's not really punishing you for doing it.

The issue is that a Squirtle that keeps his distance is very, very difficult for Snake to actually hit as long as Squirtle uses moves that won't have him get grabbed or F-Tilted for whiffing. It's not so bad. I would definitely say that Squirtle has at least a slight advantage. 55/45, although I'd like to say 60-40, honestly.

 

[gantrain05]

im with reflex, squirtle def has advantage over snake, now as for the other 2 pkm, im thinkin a bit of a heavier advantage in snakes favor.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

im with reflex, squirtle def has advantage over snake, now as for the other 2 pkm, im thinkin a bit of a heavier advantage in snakes favor.

Ivysaur loses to DACUS alone.

Outside of that, though, it's not impossible, but it's clearly in Snake's favor. If he walks toward you, you're in for a lot of trouble.

Ivysaur has stuff that works well on Snake. There isn't a WHOLE lot that Snake can do against an Ivysaur that manipulates platforms and stays in the air well. Grenades are frustrating at close range, but when that happens, Snake is asking to get grabbed or Bullet Seeded. Snake is one of the easiest characters to catch with the second part of Bullet Seed while he's recovering (only a bit of damage, but it's still a decent anti-air that way), and it should scare Snake into playing defensively when he's landing from above.

Grenades from far away don't work, as Razor Leaf will set them off whether or not he decides to shield. When he's in a neutral state, F-Tilt cancels Razor Leaf if it isn't thrown at an angle, so throwing them from slightly above is usually a good option in general.

Snake's F-Tilt eats Ivysaur alive. Ivysaur needs to make sure that doesn't happen too often. F-Tilt and D-Tilt are decent (yet unsafe on shield) pokes against Snake. Full-hopped F-Air is alright, and if you're close enough, full-hopped N-Air is also cool. Snake is easy to snipe with Up-B while he's recovering.

That being said, DACUS prevents you from doing much of anything, although I guess Snake isn't accomplishing much, either. That aside, Snake can do Snake things, and it's frustrating with a character that has a bad recovery and takes extra knockback from U-Smash, C4, and grenades. Ivysaur's mobility problem is pretty easy for Snake to take advantage of. The same can be said for Ivysaur on Snake, but Ivysaur really has to trick Snake into most of it. I'd say the matchup is about 40-60, or maybe as bad as 35-65. It's not fun if Snake knows what he should be doing, although a good Ivysaur has a field day with Snake if he doesn't.

 

[swordgard]

I don't control peoples minds. Well now I guess I do over the internent. If I am pissed I will let you know. Cause as many know, If I got something to tell you I will. Don't care who you are in this community. You assume on your own will. If you and the other wanna continue to see me as w/e and assume, go ahead don't care anymore. What else is new. What matters is what I do in tournies and the people that realize this that see me beast in tournies. Not this community. So see and say w/e you want about me. I'm tired of this and not gonna get into a fdebate about it. So are we done here as well?

Apparently you do not see why people "assume" your tone. It is not an assumption of your tone that is actually done, but rather literally taking the word for what it means. You keep on
A) Insulting/Being irrespectuous to people
B) Contradicting yourself
C) Tend to try and turn every debate about your skill level.
D) Tell people that they should stop debating with you and mind their own business, which is not how a debate works. You are also often telling people they do not know anything about peach and say that they think she sucks.

A is seen in these quotes from the couple of last posts you did.

-You run from your battles. Aint that right Mr.Gayman. You should be so proud of yourself and feel like somebody in brawl.
-You and everyone else keep thinking this. And continue run like cowards.
-As well as I am use to comments like from that noob idiot Prawn, but I don't care for these fools.
-How about you and the other idiots pick up Peach and do what I do.(Said that twice).
-Genius, the skill level of a tourny matters. (Sarcasm is still irrespect).
-Am I really suppose to give a darn what someone like you has to say?
-Like are you for real with this garbage?(Instead of attacking the credibility of the post using insult, learn to argue properly)

B as seen in here in terms of contradiction

-I for one really don't care if Shaya is in the SBR.
-I seriously get sick of this community when people say things like this to back people or claim they are right to say "Peach can't blah blah blah, lololol" You guys in the smash back room for what then? Have a purple name and feel like somebody. Feel cool/E-popular?
-And I am not trying to get MORE credit for what I did. I don't like my credit being denied when I work my butt off to get what I get in tournies.

Yet you say

-When I choose to give a damm what a nobody/random like you has to say about me or my charatcer that you know **** about, maybe I'll fight back.....maybe.

And you dont care about recognition/reputation, yet you care about credit? You do realize each of them go hand in hand.


C as seen in here in terms of making it a personal skill debate when this was solely about peach stating that your placing ALONE where not enough.

-And then you got the nerve to sit her and tell me this? That this means nothing? I'm gonna tell all the people that I beat and hard a hard time beating a Peach that they freaking suck. You just gave me the right to do so.
-I got those placings and wins cause I earned them. I got no free rides. I worked for what I got. Don't sit here and tell me otherwise.(Which i never said otherwise, I said that SNES was small for a national).
-. My Peach is mindgame material and toying with peoples heads. I'm in a different class of Peach.
-[...]to even know just how hard it is to go all Peach in tournaments and place like this. They have no clue how much I gotta work here
-And like I tell other people. If you feel this way, you use Peach at these tournies and come back t me. I wanna see them do what I do. Done. This talk is over.
-If SNES did not mean anything, then why was I the only Peach main to make it out of pools and score 13th.
-Unless people wanna prove me wrong, just pick up Peach and do better than I do around here.
-hen People like Peachkid and Mikey Lenetia would have made it out of pools, and these boys are one of the better Peach players out there. No Peach player made it out of pools but me. Same time I went the extra mile and got 13th. Which was not easy.

D as seen in here is to tell people to gtfo and that they know nothing of peach. I could say the exact same thing about you and other characters, this goes both ways.

-People still have that mindset from 2008 of her
-You know nothing of me, how I play in person, stuff I done or Peach. So don't speak garbage you know nothing about and take credit away. Stick to your character and mind your own.
- if people still wanna be on the Peach crap they they were when brawl first came out, then thats them
-I'm tired and done here, wether you are or not. I am going to sleep. You and the rest can say and see me as you like, coming from this community, does not mean a darn thing. Good nite.
- And like I tell other people. If you feel this way, you use Peach at these tournies and come back t me. I wanna see them do what I do. Done. This talk is over.

The way you argue is completely innapropriate. I know I might get infracted on this post for offtopic(certainly not flaming as flaming is ad hominem which is unrelated to the debate). But really, your attitude make it nearly unbearable for anyone to argue with you. We are not ASSUMING, we are simply taking your words for what they literally mean. You say something, assume people to dissect your every sentence. You use a lot of suggestive terms which, although you claim do not show your emotions, certainly show a lack of respect. Remember when you said "I give respect to those who earn it". Guess what, this showed you don't give many people respect, even some who replied in a perfectly calm manner. You sir are the one who did not earn respect here, so I would please ask you to either clean up your suggestive language or stop saying that others are assuming your emotions.

 

[o-Serin-o]

K, Peach needs to raise a tier or two.

New, frame-guaranteed, SDI tolerant, uair combo that works on the majority of the cast - from MK to Bowser.

And can be set-up with a dair.

And it kills.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sF-pxIUO3gE

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=258043

This is dumb. xD

Brawl can finally claim something as a combo x3

 

[-Mars-]

I've been claiming Sheik's ftilt lock for years.....

 

[LanceStern]

When I look at this, the Peach uair string was brought up a little bit ways back:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zZMgxwqvI8&feature=related

It was against a CPU I think, who certainly KNOWS how to get out of attacks. Very nice

 

[Turbo Ether]

Imo, MK, Snake and MAYBE Diddy should be the only characters in S-tier.

 

[Kitamerby]

Brawl can finally claim something as a combo x3

Olimar says hi.

 

[Tien2500]

Olimar says hi.

So do ZSS (Dsmash, Footstool on Rob, Dash attack lock), Sheik (Ftilt), Squirtle (Utilt).

 

[LanceStern]

Samus too.

ANd Peach has been able to do combos...

 

[Kitamerby]

So do ZSS (Dsmash, Footstool on Rob, Dash attack lock), Sheik (Ftilt), Squirtle (Utilt).

Nobody likes ZSS.

 

[Kewkky]

When I look at this, the Peach uair string was brought up a little bit ways back:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zZMgxwqvI8&feature=related

It was against a CPU I think, who certainly KNOWS how to get out of attacks. Very nice

Uhh...

1) Excel_Zero (named Wolfenmeister in YouTube) used that video to bring it to the attention of the Peach Boards. You can see them credit him in the description of the video Meno posted, in YouTube. It's actually preceding the explanation of what the Uair ctring can do.

2) It was against a human opponent, who is also a pretty good Melee player (not close to best in PR, but he knows his DI mechanics very well).


Thank you for your time.

 

[Vermy]

PT has a few true combos:
Charizard has "soft" rocksmash>usmash/grab, Ivysaur has nair>bulletseed/ftilt and Squirtle also has 2-3 uair strings at early % on most characters.

And iirc, Falco has ff nair>jab

 

[deepseadiva]

...I'm pretty sure we don't have to take the "Brawl has no combos" thing seriously.

We didn't have to take it seriously like, a week or two in.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Yeah and what Ankoku says is that since the grabber can buffer but the grabbed cannot, the jabs can beat a shield even though both are frame 1 moves. So squirtle wouldn't even need his extra frame to jab most of the cast, but the extra frame probably lets him beat frame 1 invincibility moves.

Actually he DOES need that extra frame. It really isnt that hard to get the timing right for shielding after beig grab released.

 

[da K.I.D.]

lol at people thinking they need to respond to the statement that brawl has no combos.

 

[Nefarious B]

Actually he DOES need that extra frame. It really isnt that hard to get the timing right for shielding after beig grab released.

We just went over how the grabber's ability to buffer gives him a pseudo frame advantage, so no he doesn't need it. Even if you shield perfectly on the first possible frame you'll still be hit by a zss jab.

 

[ShadowLink84]

We just went over how the grabber's ability to buffer gives him a pseudo frame advantage, so no he doesn't need it. Even if you shield perfectly on the first possible frame you'll still be hit by a zss jab.

*facedesk*
Buffering allows you to put in the next input during your first input.
So if I have Sonic pummel, I can buffer the next input so he can jab as SOON as possible.

That is all buffering does, it will read the next input within the next 10 frames.
This does NOT mean that the opponent who has been grabbed CANNOT shield on frame 1.
It just means that its more difficult to land that input.

That is all it means.
Buffering doesnt magically make you faster thn the opponent, it merely makes it easier for you to perform actions. Thats it!

Example.

I want to short hop laser.
I input the jump command, then input the laser command within the next ten frames of the first input.
The game will then read it, and have the laser action perform as soon as possible.
Thats all buffering does.

So its exactly as I said, squirtle NEEDS that frame, otherwise, the opponent can get the timing down and powershield the jab everytime.

Seriously, buffering makes things easier, doesnt mean you cant do anything without a buffer. Its just harder.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

*facedesk*
Buffering allows you to put in the next input during your first input.
So if I have Sonic pummel, I can buffer the next input so he can jab as SOON as possible.

That is all buffering does, it will read the next input within the next 10 frames.
This does NOT mean that the opponent who has been grabbed CANNOT shield on frame 1.
It just means that its more difficult to land that input.

That is all it means.
Buffering doesnt magically make you faster thn the opponent, it merely makes it easier for you to perform actions. Thats it!

Buffering also 'shortens' the move by 1 frame.

ok, this is the situation, you are both grab released. shield is as fast as jab
Shield startup:
1. input (can be ignored by buffering)
2. hitbox/shield

ZSS can buffer, so she has 1 frame only
The other person can't so he has 2 frames, meaning he's weak on 1

 

[ShadowLink84]

forget this post.

>.<