The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[DanGR]

Buffering also 'shortens' the move by 1 frame.

Can I get someone to confirm this.

<___<

>___>

I should know these things...

 

[ShadowLink84]

foget this post

 

[ShadowLink84]

Can I get someone to confirm this.

<___<

>___>

I should know these things...

It doesnt!

All it does is have the next move come out as SOON as possible.
Hence the inaccuracy with those arguments.
Frames are not equal to time.


inputs are read almost instantaneously. So you do NOT need a buffer for the frame 1 move to appear on frame 1.

So if I input my action on time period .015. The action will still occur at time period .016 (frame 1)


Edit1: I had made an error in my explanation sorry HA!

 

[DMG]

The thing though is that we measure attacks by frames, not by specific time intervals. I mean if you want to get technical, you can just make a chart for every frame with each time interval specified and measure it by that, but most people prefer to say "Hey that Fsmash starts on Frame 8, ends on frame 22, and has cooldown lag until frame 35" or whatever it may be.

Say we have a move that takes exactly 30 frames. In 30 fps, it would take up an entire second. In 60 fps, it would take up half a second. In 120 fps, it would be 1/4th of a second. So the FPS matters time wise if you are measuring by frames. Measuring time intervals matters frame wise if you are measuring by time.

Frames are basically equal to time, because you are measuring the frames as they go by with a unit of time. 60 Fps means each frame ~ 1/60th of a second. If you have 120 Fps, each frame cannot be counted in a 1/60 second interval, you would be missing frames. If you have more frames being "counted" in the same length of time, then they must be "counted" faster.

 

[ShadowLink84]

The thing though is that we measure attacks by frames, not by specific time intervals. I mean if you want to get technical, you can just make a chart for every frame with each time interval specified and measure it by that, but most people prefer to say "Hey that Fsmash starts on Frame 8, ends on frame 22, and has cooldown lag until frame 35" or whatever it may be.

Say we have a move that takes exactly 30 frames. In 30 fps, it would take up an entire second. In 60 fps, it would take up half a second. In 120 fps, it would be 1/4th of a second. So the FPS matters time wise if you are measuring by frames. Measuring time intervals matters frame wise if you are measuring by time.

Frames are basically equal to time, because you are measuring the frames as they go by with a unit of time. 60 Fps means each frame ~ 1/60th of a second. If you have 120 Fps, each frame cannot be counted in a 1/60 second interval, you would be missing frames. If you have more frames being "counted" in the same length of time, then they must be "counted" faster.

Actually you're wrong DMG.
A games behavior in 120fps is different from 60 fps.

The game will have the action occur on such and such frame.
The INPUT is not read in such a manner.

Every game has something like that.

So if I put in my input on .015, the action will come out in frame 1 (.16).

If I place the input on .00000001, the action will still come out on frame 1.

It is why you do NOT need a buffer in essence, since the action will ALWAYS occur on frame 1 So if you smack you input on .016 (frame1), the action will come out on frame 1


The game will WAIT for the next frame before it enacts the input selected. If you place your input in at the same time as that frame, the action will come up on that frame.

So in a 120 fps game its the same deals.
Same if it was 30. The game waits for that frame before the action is performed. As long as the input is done during or before the frame it will occur.

 

[DMG]

That's fine, but the individual frames pass by faster in a 120 FPS game. Basically in a 120 FPS game, you would have a 2 frame window to input whatever and have it come out as fast as 60 FPS.

Say we input/something comes out on frame 5 in 60 FPS or timewise it comes out on 0.0833333333. In 120 FPS, it could come out on frame 9 and timewise come out sooner than .0833333333 because of the increased speed of each frame (2 frames occur in 120 FPS in the time it takes for 1 frame to occur in 60 FPS). If you got it to come out on frame 10, it would be the same time as frame 5 in 60 FPS.

For inputs, you are right. There is a small thing to note though that the more FPS you get, the smaller of a time window each frame has, so it gets harder if you specifically want something to occur on, say frame 30 instead of 31, the higher the FPS reaches.

 

[zeldspazz]

@_@

You nerds. ^_^

 

[da K.I.D.]

If your going to run the clock as much as DMG does, youd probably know the intimate mechanics of time as well

 

[mountain_tiger]

@_@

You nerds. ^_^

Being a nerd isn't necessarily a bad thing. They generally get higher-paying jobs in later life.

 

[Kewkky]

When you stand still and do a move, the game uses a small amount of time to recognize your input, then execute the command. When you buffer a move, then the game will aleady have read the input while the previous command is still activated, meaning that as soon as you're able to do the attack, you'll need no "input time" and your attack will go out as fast as possible (hence what I would imagine some people refer to as frame 0: the amount of time the game takes in recognizing the input before executing the command)... So, frame 0, due to its name and its purpose (time consumption), is counted as an individual frame, which means frame 0 + frame 1 = 2 frames... And since when you buffer an attack (frame 0 is done while the other animation is still active), once the game allows you, your command will activate with no input lag at all, giving you the illusion that "buffered attacks activate 1 frame sooner than normal attacks".

Think about it this way... ZSS has a 30-frame grab release (as far as I remember). If she ground-releases someone and buffers her 1-frame jab, opponents have the chance of buffering their shields to powershield her first jab.

30-frame grab release + 1-frame buffered jab = 31 frames.
30-frame grab released + 1-frame shield = 31 frames.

Cancel out the 30 frames, and you'll see that you're actually able to powershield ZSS's jab due to both activating at the same time. Now, with Squirtle:

29-frame grab release + 1-frame jab = 30 frames.
30-frame grab released + 1-frame shield = 31 frames.

Squirtle now has a frame advantage on your opponent by 1 frame, enough to hit them with his jab combo before they can activate their shields.


That's the gist of it. Hope I didn't get ninja'd. Edit: Well, I at least explained it in detail. : /

 

[ShadowLink84]

That's fine, but the individual frames pass by faster in a 120 FPS game. Basically in a 120 FPS game, you would have a 2 frame window to input whatever and have it come out as fast as 60 FPS.

Say we input/something comes out on frame 5 in 60 FPS or timewise it comes out on 0.0833333333. In 120 FPS, it could come out on frame 9 and timewise come out sooner than .0833333333 because of the increased speed of each frame (2 frames occur in 120 FPS in the time it takes for 1 frame to occur in 60 FPS). If you got it to come out on frame 10, it would be the same time as frame 5 in 60 FPS.

Correct, the amount of frames nearly doubles while the amount of time you have to place an input in between is halved.

For inputs, you are right. There is a small thing to note though that the more FPS you get, the smaller of a time window each frame has, so it gets harder if you specifically want something to occur on, say frame 30 instead of 31, the higher the FPS reaches.

Correct. Primarily because the game waits less time for that input before the next frame.
Imagine if Brawl ran at 120fps. It would actually be sexy.

 

[DMG]

Cool, we got that settled.

Oh yeah, how many of you have looked at the "Japanese Tier list"? I don't know if it's even the official one, but it gave me a quick laugh.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

Cool, we got that settled.

Oh yeah, how many of you have looked at the "Japanese Tier list"? I don't know if it's even the official one, but it gave me a quick laugh.

Took ya long enough.

Pika is not popular over there = Fox's placing
Lack in overcoming learning curves = Sonic's placing
Character bais = Jigg's placing

 

[ShadowLink84]

Cool, we got that settled.

Oh yeah, how many of you have looked at the "Japanese Tier list"? I don't know if it's even the official one, but it gave me a quick laugh.

It makes me giggle.

 

[Dark.Pch]

I would love to go to japan and school them on Peach for where they have her on that list.

 

[phi1ny3]

OMG

DMG scoffs at the Japanese tier list

This is all the proof we need to prove all those notions that the Japanese like to play Brawlee and aggro.

Get at me

 

[Kewkky]

I would also love to go to Japan and teach em a thing or two about what Kirby can do. At least they see ZSS higher than our previous lists. It wouldn't surprise me that she increases in USA's next tierlist, so at least her position will be balanced everywhere.

But Kirby... I am sad.

 

[phi1ny3]

Mexico doesn't approve of Kirby either, at least from the list I saw.

 

[da K.I.D.]

I would love to go to japan and school them on Peach for where they have her on that list.

Same goes for me and sonic broham

 

[phi1ny3]

Same with Lucario, but I don't have nearly a reason to complain as some of the others lolol.

 

[Poltergust]

You think Peach is bad? Look at Luigi! D:<

 

[zeldspazz]

Yeah well I would go show them how good Zelda is for puting her that low D:<

Oh wait.......

 

[Spelt]

Yeah well I would go show them how good Zelda is for puting her that low D:<

fixed unneeded "oh wait".
now it's funny.

 

[phi1ny3]

Honestly, I agree that Kirby is too low for my comfort zone on their tier list, definitely different from what I think he should be.

Relevant topic: I've only seen evidence that if anything point to Pikachu going lower (MUs seem less **** from when he first moved up a bunch, and not a marginally better rep/success at tourneys since his rise), I think he'll stay as is pretty much, but some radicals claim him to be better than he is. What's the thought on this character, seeing as how little discussion I've heard on him in this entire tier list discussion?

 

[rathy Aro]

fixed unneeded "oh wait".
now it's funny.

it was funnier the first way. =/

I should be happy that the japanese tier list understands how good sheik is, but after watching Earth play I doubt they do. She's probably just useful as a fox counter and/or people aren't playing the match up right.

 

[Spelt]

it was funnier the first way. =/

Oh wait...

fixed for you, too.
i'm good at this.

 

[Zankoku]

Okay, people are being morons about what the mechanics of buffering are, so I'll explain.

Frame data terminology designates the input frame as frame 0. So with shield being 1 frame, if you input shield on frame 15, you get your shield up on frame 16. If you break out of a grab and hold down R to get the shield input as early as possible, you'll go through the grab break animation from frames 1-30, the game will recognize the input on frame 31, and you'll get your shield up on frame 32. All make sense so far? Good, now I'll explain buffering on the grab release side.

When you grab release someone, you have the animation from frames 1-30. According to what I hear from people who PSA'd the animation, you're allowed to buffer an input from frames 25-30. This means that the game will recognize the input before the animation ends and perform the action as soon as possible. So you're in grab release, input a jab on frame 26, animation ends on frame 30, game remembers your buffered jab input, and the (1-frame ZSS/Squirtle) jab hits on frame 31, a whole frame before anyone can actually get a shield out!

Notice that this means you have to buffer a frame 1 jab to EVER pull this off. Not buffering it will get it powershielded, and buffering a frame 2 jab will get it powershielded.

 

[DMG]

I thought the buffer window was 10 frames?

 

[Kewkky]

You can't buffer shields? And how many frames does it take to get your shield up (put an end to the 1frame/2frame debate)?

I once asked in the "Ask a question" thread stuff about buffering, and no one answered me. I repeated the question yet again later on, yet no one still answered me...

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

You can't buffer shields? And how many frames does it take to get your shield up (put an end to the 1frame/2frame debate)?

I once asked in the "Ask a question" thread stuff about buffering, and no one answered me. I repeated the question yet again later on, yet no one still answered me...

You can't buffer anything if you're being released

Like I said before, shield is 1 frame, jab is 1 frame, input is 1 frame.
release, neutral situation
ZSS
Buffer jab (+0 frames)
frame 1: hitbox

Opponent
input shield (1 frame)
frame 2: shield

Input adds a frame which can be negated by buffering

Attack has one frame of startup from input-
if buffer; negate.

 

[ShadowLink84]

You can't buffer anything if you're being released

Like I said before, shield is 1 frame, jab is 1 frame, input is 1 frame.
release, neutral situation
ZSS
Buffer jab (+0 frames)
frame 1: hitbox

Opponent
input shield (1 frame)
frame 2: shield

Input adds a frame which can be negated by buffering

Attack has one frame of startup from input-
if buffer; negate.

Ad its like I said EARLIER.
You are speaking inaccuratey.

inputs do NOT follow frame laws.
Seriously READ my post

1 frame is equal to .016 seconds.
very .016 seconds, the game puts up the next frame.

So if you place an input on .015 the action does not occur until .016 seconds.

SO if you input ON .016, your shield will still appear.

So no, the opponent doesn't need the buffer in order to powersield.
As long as he smack the input on .016 (frame1) the game will still bring out the shield on frame 1.

Seriously, read my post and stop saying silly things like "inputs add frames" they don't, the game WAITS for input between and during frames.

-_-

Ankoku I am not referring to the mechanics of buffering btw, just what goes on with inputs and the frames.

 

[Zankoku]

Ad its like I said EARLIER.
You are speaking inaccuratey.

inputs do NOT follow frame laws.
Seriously READ my post

1 frame is equal to .016 seconds.
very .016 seconds, the game puts up the next frame.

So if you place an input on .015 the action does not occur until .016 seconds.

SO if you input ON .016, your shield will still appear.

So no, the opponent doesn't need the buffer in order to powersield.
As long as he smack the input on .016 (frame1) the game will still bring out the shield on frame 1.

Actually, if you input anything on frame 1, it won't happen until frame 2. Having no buffer indeed does not "add" frames like Xonar continues to insist on, but it does prevent you from acting on your first neutral frame. Call it a "frame gap," it's basically the first possible frame that the game can take your inputs, but nothing happens until frame 1.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Actually, if you input anything on frame 1, it won't happen until frame 2. Having no buffer indeed does not "add" frames like Xonar continues to insist on, but it does prevent you from acting on your first neutral frame. Call it a "frame gap," it's basically the first possible frame that the game can take your inputs, but nothing happens until frame 1.

Every game acts the same way ankoku. You can check out the development kit.
If you want to have that move come out on frame 1. you have the previous frame, until the actual start of the frame to get it to work.

So from 0-.016 you can have the shield come out on frame 1. Of this I am very sure.
If I am wrong, meh, dont get grabbed?

 

[Zankoku]

Every game acts the same way ankoku. You can check out the development kit.
If you want to have that move come out on frame 1. you have the previous frame, until the actual start of the frame to get it to work.

So from 0-.016 you can have the shield come out on frame 1. Of this I am very sure.
If I am wrong, meh, dont get grabbed?

No, of this I'm sure, frame 0 exists because it is the frame that a command is interpreted. The existence of buffer frames allows the frame 0 to be the final frame of something else, like a grab release animation, and is referred to in Capcom games as a "reversal." This is why Shoryuken is so strong - it can be buffered into a reversal, so it has absolutely no vulnerable startup frame. Performing a normal attack command on wakeup with frame 1 invulnerability that cannot be reversal'd will still have a single vulnerable frame - the frame 0 after wakeup.

 

[Kewkky]

Good to know I wasn't wrong with the "frame 0"thing. With so many explanations floating around, it got me wondering if I was the wrong one. : |

 

[ShadowLink84]

No, of this I'm sure, frame 0 exists because it is the frame that a command is interpreted. The existence of buffer frames allows the frame 0 to be the final frame of something else, like a grab release animation, and is referred to in Capcom games as a "reversal." This is why Shoryuken is so strong - it can be buffered into a reversal, so it has absolutely no vulnerable startup frame. Performing a normal attack command on wakeup with frame 1 invulnerability that cannot be reversal'd will still have a single vulnerable frame - the frame 0 after wakeup.

Dont say frame zero. Its a headache.
Sounds weird >.<

Frame 0 as you put it would merely be the point in time in which you smacked it.

For such moves like a shoryuken which uses multiple inputs, yes, buffering is required.
For something like powershielding? No because it is a singular command. A

Frame 0 as you put it would merely be the point in time when you placed your input.
Which can be during a frame or as soon as it starts. At least from when I last checked other games you could start a move on time .016 (frame 1).
ough as I said, if I misinterpreted the hardware thats my fail.

 

[Zankoku]

Dont say frame zero. Its aheadache.

That is the proper terminology, yes.

Frame 0 as you put it would merely be the point in time in which you smacked it.

Well, it's more the frame in which you inputted the final command. In the case of a Shoryuken, frame 0 is when you press the Punch button after the DPM. In the case of an fsmash, frame 0 is when you press the A after smashing the control stick forward.

For such moves like a shoryuken which uses multiple inputs, yes, buffering is required.

No, buffering is not required. You're confusing buffering with command interpreter windows. The Shoryuken is only buffered if it comes straight out of blockstun or wakeup.

For something like powershielding? No because it is a singular command.
Which can be during a frame or as soon as it starts. At least from when I last checked other games you could start a move on time .016 (frame 1).
ough as I said, if I misinterpreted the hardware thats my fail

Again, it's impossible for you to do anything on the first available frame without any buffer frames to allow for the command to be interpreted beforehand. If the game allowed for something to happen on the same frame that it was inputted, then a frame would essentially be "cut" from the animation. Think about it. Things are done in 60 fps because that is the limitation of the TV signal. If you inputted something on the first possible tick of a frame that's already being broadcast, there's no way for the TV to suddenly switch to frame 1 of whatever you did.

 

[Ripple]

it would be cool if the game went back a frame and compensated for the frame it takes to recognize a command

 

[ShadowLink84]

Actually there are games that do run on 120fps, though they require newer t.v's.
I think.
Maybe.
Was it Forza?
Meh if im wrong im wrong.

 

[Zankoku]

Actually there are games that do run on 120fps, though they require newer t.v's.
I think.
Maybe.
Was it Forza?
Meh if im wrong im wrong.

They would also need the proper output cables. You're not gonna get better than 60 fps on composite.