The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[Albert.]

AlmostLegendary continues to post stupidly.


Regarding Pika: I don't even main Pika to know that he can combo into a grab at <50% on most characters with his spacing/spamable moves. Saying that Pika is struggling to get the grab is just incorrect.

He also has several different low-lag low-knockback comboing moves like Dtilt, UTilt, and the aerials. I know that this is not a character-specific trait but Pika is one of the Bawwrrll characters that can consitently get off real combo strings.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

AlmostLegendary continues to post stupidly.


Regarding Pika: I don't even main Pika to know that he can combo into a grab at <50% on most characters with his spacing/spamable moves. Saying that Pika is struggling to get the grab is just incorrect.

He also has several different low-lag low-knockback comboing moves like Dtilt, UTilt, and the aerials. I know that this is not a character-specific trait but Pika is one of the Bawwrrll characters that can consitently get off real combo strings.

Marth mains good for three things

1. theory crafting
2. meat riding neo
3. flaming me

*wonders which marth main will flame me afther this post* ROFL.

 

[DanGR]

Ok, guys. Name 1 decent grab setup Pikachu has.

 

[Albert.]

Ok, guys. Name 1 decent grab setup Pikachu has.

UH

Fair??

 

[DanGR]

UH

Fair??

You can SDI up and out. It's not hard.

Many characters can even punish Pikachu for landing it in the first place. I know Olimar can n-air at the top if you can get out quickly enough. *shrugs*

 

[da K.I.D.]

Ok, guys. Name 1 decent grab setup Pikachu has.

falling fair that hits with only one or two hits is low enough on lag to combo into a grab. its pretty much pikachus main setup for everything...

You can SDI up and out. It's not hard.

Many characters can even punish Pikachu for landing it in the first place. I know Olimar can n-air at the top if you can get out quickly enough. *shrugs*

olimar is of the select few that can get out of this set up and even then its very difficult. this is because he is very small and very floaty.

any character that falls faster or is heavier or is even just larger eats up this set up very easilly.

you use olimar as an example because I assume you main him, but you also have a sheik picture nexxt to your avatar. try using her as an example, and see if she can get out of that...

that being said, falling fair is a very good, most of the time guaranteed set up for a grab.

 

[Spelt]

Ok, guys. Name 1 decent grab setup Pikachu has.

this is like asking for a list of pikachu's combos....

 

[DanGR]

falling fair that hits with only one or two hits is low enough on lag to combo into a grab. its pretty much pikachus main setup for everything...

Assuming you can't DI at all, just avoid it. It's a very telegraphed attack, usually requiring the pikachu player to fall from fairly high up and straight into the ground if he wants to try to combo it into a grab. I doubt you'll ever see a shff'ed fair approach any time soon. There's a reason for that...

olimar is of the select few that can get out of this set up and even then its very difficult. this is because he is very small and very floaty.

any character that falls faster or is heavier or is even just larger eats up this set up very easilly.

you use olimar as an example because I assume you main him, but you also have a sheik picture nexxt to your avatar. try using her as an example, and see if she can get out of that...

that being said, falling fair is a very good, most of the time guaranteed set up for a grab.

Every character I've tried it with can DI out of it. Perhaps I'm just playing all the right characters.

I use Olimar as an example because he's the character I know most about.

Ok, Sheik. You can just jab him after the f-air. Pikachu doesn't have enough of a frame advantage to grab her in time to avoid a simple jab.

this is like asking for a list of pikachu's combos....

Ok, show me.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Assuming you can't DI at all, just avoid it. It's a very telegraphed attack, usually requiring the pikachu player to fall from fairly high up and straight into the ground if he wants to try to combo it into a grab. I doubt you'll ever see a shff'ed fair approach any time soon. There's a reason for that...


Every character I've tried it with can DI out of it. Perhaps I'm just playing all the right characters.

I use Olimar as an example because he's the character I know most about.

Ok, Sheik. You can just jab him after the f-air. Pikachu doesn't have enough of a frame advantage to grab her in time to avoid a simple jab.


Ok, show me.

its not an approach, its a terrible approach.

its used to punish attacks, all you have to do is jump over any attack that has any form of commitment to it, and you get a free fair into pretty much any move pika has.

and in the shiek example,if you hit more than once with the falling fair, shieks not going to be landing fast enough to jab, and she probably wont have time to aerial before she actually hits the ground...

on most characters its a true combo, excluding SDI, since SDI can get you out of just about everything in the game.

 

[Kewkky]

Umm... Pikachu will never make it to top tier, seriously. The chances Pikachu has for him to enter the top characters in the game are as slim as us finding a new wavedash: the former will only happen when the latter does (maybe the latter will make it easier for the former, but as of now, no).

Thank you, and good night.

 

[The Truth!]

Even with SDI your in hitstun longer than pikas ending lag. If it were punishable SDI wouldnt even be necessary.

Escaping depends on how many parts of the fair hit. If one hits and you SDI you've probably set yourself up for a grab you couldve avoided without SDI. Im not sure if its escapable if two hit. With three hits it's possible to escape, although Im not sure if punishment entirely is escapable. It likely depends on your percent and where youre hit. There is some control over how many hit from fast falling. Regardless, true combos into grabs dont really exist in brawl, just about everything is avoidable given the correct reaction.

Aside from that, theres utilt to grab, uair to grab, dtilt to grab, dair to grab, etc. Honestly even without 'setups' it wouldnt matter. I mean theyre nice, but set-ups only become necessary for gimmicky characters that can't punish. Pikachu punishes really well because hes fast, and his initial accelleration is amazing. Im sure any person who relies on their characters grabs can attest to obtaining grabs from direct punishment more often than set ups, and in that case Id sooner have pika's acceleration and speed then falcos grab range.

Also LOL at saying to just avoid fair. God dang why didnt I think of that? Maybe next we can avoid olimars grabs.

 

[DanGR]

its not an approach, its a terrible approach.

its used to punish attacks, all you have to do is jump over any attack that has any form of commitment to it, and you get a free fair into pretty much any move pika has.

and in the shiek example,if you hit more than once with the falling fair, shieks not going to be landing fast enough to jab, and she probably wont have time to aerial before she actually hits the ground...

on most characters its a true combo, excluding SDI, since SDI can get you out of just about everything in the game.

Why is the opponent using such committed attacks for a full hopped, ff'ed f-air to land in the first place? ...and especially when he's at a chaingrab'bable percent? Pikachu doesn't have anything so... option limiting that can force an opponent to do this.

I've done the example I gave for Sheik multiple times. You're actually DIing down in this here so you won't get propped up into the air very far. Then you just jab during f-air's landing lag... I've seen other players do it too. *shrugs* I... can't really argue past first hand experience besides providing frame data. Perhaps they're all just doing it wrong.

Olimar's n-air has the same amount of landing lag as Pikachu's f-air (15 frames) and props the opponent even higher into the air. I'm certain that Falco can DI down and jab before Olimar can do much of anything, and Pikachu's f-air is even easier to SDI...

Maybe some other Pikachu/Sheik players will shed some light.

edit: *sigh* I just read The Truth!'s post. I'll have to test all of this again under more controlled settings. >_>

I wasn't getting at Falco's grab range as being the reason he gets grabs more easily. <_< It's how option-limiting and option-limitless he is that makes avoiding grabs really difficult.

 

[Sharky]

lolDR

aaaaanyway, anybody know any approximates on the next tier list release date?

 

[Kewkky]

lolDR

aaaaanyway, anybody know any approximates on the next tier list release date?

Somewhere between now and 2011, I'm guessing. I might be wrong though.

Yeah, i just avoided saying "no one knows, not even the SBR"... Oh, ****.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I got bored.

S tier
Meta Knight
Snake
Diddy Kong
Wario
Falco
Marth
King Dedede

A tier
Pikachu
Ice Climbers
Mr. Game and Watch
Olimar
Zero Suit Samus
Lucario
Kirby

B tier
R.O.B.
Donkey Kong
Peach
Toon Link
Pit

C tier
Luigi
Fox
Sonic
Sheik
Wolf

D tier
Pokemon Trainer
Bowser
Ike
Zelda
Mario

E tier
Ness
Lucas
Yoshi
Samus
Jigglypuff

F tier
Link
Captain Falcon
Ganondorf

 

[The Truth!]

Umm... Pikachu will never make it to top tier, seriously. The chances Pikachu has for him to enter the top characters in the game are as slim as us finding a new wavedash: the former will only happen when the latter does (maybe the latter will make it easier for the former, but as of now, no).

Thank you, and good night.

IMO He only lacks the tournament representation. The only reason your statemnet is likely to be true is because pikachus is a very very difficult character to learn and even then most his matchups are even so it takes effort to win with him. In the meantime you have characters like metaknight or snake who take significantly less effort to win, and characters like Wario and Marth who just in general have an easier time with the majority of the cast that is much easier to choose over someone thats already more difficult to learn.

 

[Kewkky]

I got bored.f

Pikachu is a little high, so moving him down 1-2 spots would be better. Everything else B tier and above, I am very pleased with (Kirby actually still in high tier in a player-made tier list? I like this guy ;D).

 

[Kewkky]

IMO He only lacks the tournament representation. The only reason your statemnet is likely to be true is because pikachus is a very very difficult character to learn and even then most his matchups are even so it takes effort to win with him. In the meantime you have characters like metaknight or snake who take significantly less effort to win, and characters like Wario and Marth who just in general have an easier time with the majority of the cast that is much easier to choose over someone thats already more difficult to learn.

Umm, your reasons are practically my own. Pikachu is worse than the ones in top tier. Not by a large margin, mind you! But by a large-ENOUGH margin to see exactly in what kind of ground he is standing on in the end... You compare what Pikachu has undergone to get to where he is with what the tops have done themselves, as well as compare what Pikachu has accomplished in tourneys with his small representation in comparison to others (if the only Pika reps are taking top 3 spots at tourneys with obviously good people all the time, representation wouldn't matter much, since it'd be obvious Pika has some pretty crazy options against those opposing characters), and the answer will be quite clear.



EDIT: Ugh, another doublepost. I swear, if it weren't for grammatical stuff and double-posting, I'd probably have a family, car and job right now.

 

[Nefarious B]

It's one thing to say move Pika down, but who would you put above him? ICs are really the only ones above him that I think could actually stand to move up that far. And since I'm predicting GaW to move down a couple spots, Pika would probably stay in the same spot. I think 9th is solid for him

 

[The Truth!]

Edit: Also I agree with this post ^^^. ICs are definitely going up, and I think GW and DDD deserve to be below pika and probably oli, but their tourney representation (especially DDD) might say otherwise.

Umm, your reasons are practically my own. Pikachu is worse than the ones in top tier. Not by a large margin, mind you! But by a large-ENOUGH margin to see exactly in what kind of ground he is standing on in the end... You compare what Pikachu has undergone to get to where he is with what the tops have done themselves, as well as compare what Pikachu has accomplished in tourneys with his small representation in comparison to others (if the only Pika reps are taking top 3 spots at tourneys with obviously good people all the time, representation wouldn't matter much, since it'd be obvious Pika has some pretty crazy options against those opposing characters), and the answer will be quite clear.



EDIT: Ugh, another doublepost. I swear, if it weren't for grammatical stuff and double-posting, I'd probably have a family, car and job right now.

Ah, aight. Although the only characters I feel that way about are MK, Snake, Wario, Diddy Kong, and Marth and maybe Falco. Not to say that no one else deserves to be higher ever, but I think pika isnt held back from a particular something or other from doing better aside from his lack representation, which I agree is a very legitimate reason to keep him seperated.

Also LOL at saying to just avoid fair. God dang why didnt I think of that? Maybe next we can avoid olimars grabs.

Alright this was probably a poor response. Basically its a cop out to say to "just avoid the attack" because I can say that about anything. Thats not the point of the discussion. But if you are looking for how it hits, I mean it can be for anything. Punishing a poor landing, the ending lag of a tilt or smash, a whiffed aerial etc. Its not like its something that never hits, but its not going to work if I just walk up to someone and try to fair them (and thats the same for any move), haha, I doubt thats what KID was saying

 

[Jupz]

Nice list Red, I would move Wario below Dedede though and IC's ahead of Marth. Then split MK, Snake, Diddy and Falco off from the other 4.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Pikachu is a little high, so moving him down 1-2 spots would be better. Everything else B tier and above, I am very pleased with (Kirby actually still in high tier in a player-made tier list? I like this guy ;D).

Kirby is one of the , move me down, characters that doesn't deserve it.

Nice list Red, I would move Wario below Dedede though and IC's ahead of Marth. Then split MK, Snake, Diddy and Falco off from the other 4.

Wario in my eyes is better than DDD.

His bad MU's being MK, barely, Marth and Peach. DDD has a pluitola of more bad MUs, Falco, Pikachu, Olimar, MK, Ice climbers.

DDD ***** some character's harder, but Wario's MU's are just more solid against the cast as a whole.

That's what I think of it.

The splitting of the four you mentioned, I don't feel they are on a level above the rest of the cast.

 

[Jupz]

I just feel Wario is slightly overrated due to his rather poor ground game and his poor range. He can space vertically very well though I suppose and he has several options coming down including a grab option. I'm not sure who is better. However I do feel MK Snake Diddy and Falco are quite a bit better then the other 4.

 

[Dekar173]

I don't see nearly enough Warios use their bike as a projectile. It's too good and they're too gay for not using it! XD

 

[da K.I.D.]

I approve of red ryus pikachu and sonic placement.

@ jupz, who cares about warios ground options? hes never on the ground, he only has like half the moveset of every other character, seeing as his only usable ground moves are f smash, ftilt, and jab, and jab is only used at kill percents to combo into f smash. other than that, its entirely aerials and b moves. so why would something that doesnt ever get used factor into how good of a character he is?

also, The Truth has really been living up to his name for the last couple of pages...

 

[Kewkky]

It's one thing to say move Pika down, but who would you put above him? ICs are really the only ones above him that I think could actually stand to move up that far. And since I'm predicting GaW to move down a couple spots, Pika would probably stay in the same spot. I think 9th is solid for him

Let's see...

S tier
Meta Knight
Snake
Diddy Kong
Wario
Falco
Marth
King Dedede

A tier
Ice Climbers (^)
Pikachu (v)
Mr. Game and Watch
Olimar
Zero Suit Samus
Lucario
Kirby

The separation of characters in eac tier list he made is good, the positions are questionable (as always). But, since what truly matters is the tier letters and positions are not as important (top/high/mid/low/bottom, each tier should represent how well a character should be able to do in a tourney full of top players and group each character with others who have a similar margin by separating each tier between characters whose potential is notably bigger than the ones below them, while character positions should show who's got a better chance at doing better... What really matters is who can place better by a larger margin), I like how his tier list ended up looking like... It's no lie at all that ZSS has been doing very well at multiple tourneys in different locations with all types of players (low/mid/high/top players) due to her being a better character than people originally thought she was, for example, so slamming her in high tier wouldn't be out of the question at all.

 

[mountain_tiger]

I just feel Wario is slightly overrated due to his rather poor ground game and his poor range. He can space vertically very well though I suppose and he has several options coming down including a grab option. I'm not sure who is better. However I do feel MK Snake Diddy and Falco are quite a bit better then the other 4.

Wario's ground game is by no means terrible. It's not fantastic, but it's usable. Besides, Wario's air game is easily good enough to balance any weaknesses his ground game has.

I'd say that Wario is 4th or 5th best, not 100% sure.

 

[Justblaze647]

I think Falco should drop out of high tier...

Spoiler

or at least he would if it weren't for Falco illusion

 

[Prawn]

ICs are 3rd or 4th best iuno what you're all going on about

 

[ShadowLink84]

The only character worthy of S tier is MK and MAYBE Snake.
*calls it right now*

 

[Justblaze647]

The only character worthy of S tier is MK and MAYBE Snake.
*calls it right now*

You think the two of them deserve a tier to themselves?

Diddy is pretty good, as well...

 

[ShadowLink84]

You think the two of them deserve a tier to themselves?

Diddy is pretty good, as well...

Diddy is good but when you compare their MUs as well as check as to how well they perform tournament wise, those two characters set themselves apart from the rest.

 

[Albert.]

Diddy is good but when you compare their MUs as well as check as to how well they perform tournament wise, those two characters set themselves apart from the rest.

Diddy has been doing REALLY well lately. ADHD on EC, GNes, Fliphop in Texas and Dao on WC have all been placing really high.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

MK and Snake are the best two characters in the game. They are better than everyone below them, I just didn't feel like they were good enough to warrant a tier above everyone else.

For IC's not being higher, I think they lose their niche when people play gay. When people platform camp and other shenanigans they lose part of their power.

The exact placement of some characters next to each other is up for debate really, It's not a bad thing either. I could have put Lucario above Zero Suit Samus and most people wouldn't have given it a second thought. So I agree that the letter is more important than the placement for the most part.

 

[phi1ny3]

Diddy has been doing REALLY well lately. ADHD on EC, GNes, Fliphop in Texas and Dao on WC have all been placing really high.

Felix has also been doing well in NW, even though that's not exactly an amazing region or anything.

 

[Meru.]

ICs are 3rd or 4th best iuno what you're all going on about

3rd or 4th?! That's really high imo. Why do you think that? What are their match-ups in your opinion?

Yeah, I'm really curious ;p

 

[Nidtendofreak]

ICs are not better then Diddy Kong, Wario, or Falco without a doubt. You are high if you think they are.

Marth? Highly debatable, most likely not.

D3? Still highly debatable, not quite as clear cut.

Try "ICs are 7th or 8th best"

 

[da K.I.D.]

wario isnt OMGWTFHAX great anymore, i used to have massive issues with him, but almost any character can fight him, as long as they know the matchup.

Warios all play pretty much the same, so if you can beat one you can beat all of them, the only difference between an average wario and a great wario is that the really good warios land their fart, which is like a game changing move...

he could stand to move down a spot or two.

I also think putting falco in the same group of amazing as diddy, mk and snake is a bit farfetched, ICs could be 3/4, and I think they eventually will be, when people stop dropping their grabs, but as of right now, they arent that good, tho they probably should be top tier.

 

[gantrain05]

imo Falco > diddy, but thats just my opinion. and i agree, when u learn the wario matchup its pretty winnable with just about any char.

 

[phi1ny3]

I'm convinced ICs straddle 5-6th spot pretty solidly as of now.