The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[Nidtendofreak]

Wario should drop below Diddy (AKA, Diddy third, Wario fourth), but thats about it. I don't see him below Falco. He's still good, and still the most gay character in the game when at the top of the metagame.

ICs have too much trouble on the opponent's stage CP imo to be 5th. There are so many stages that can screw over their infinities it's not even funny, and even the most conservative list can't help but have a couple of their bad stages. And if it's a liberal list...lol. "How shall I screw my opponent on the CP today? Norfair? Brinstar? Rainbow Cruise? Pirate Ship is always fun. But then there is always Halberd for a change and if I'm feeling a bit more daring..."

Marth doesn't really have that problem. Ban FD, and he has platforms to help his game out every time. D3...not as positive on stage selection, but I doubt it's as bad as the ICs for being CP'd.

 

[DMG]

The difference between a good Wario and a Great Wario is how aggressive they are nowadays.

No more Campy Wario's out there anymore, even if it works lol.

 

[Padô]

The difference between a good Wario and a Great Wario is how aggressive they are nowadays.

No more Campy Wario's out there anymore, even if it works lol.

Honestly, I'd consider that camping ONLY Wario's aren't out there anymore. The Great Wario's are resumed in a good balance between camp and agressiveness

BTW, ICs got a lot of potential, they are resumed on CG and get CP'ed really easy but, they still might get the 6th or maybe 5th below wario and diddy, falco's game is getting old so people are finding a good way counter their spams.

 

[Pr0phetic]

DMG, start ****** again, kthnks.

Tier wise, ICs shouldn't be as high as 3rd or 4th, top 10 definitely. Marth probably would be good in the usual 6-7 range.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

DMG, start ****** again, kthnks.

Tier wise, ICs shouldn't be as high as 3rd or 4th, top 10 definitely. Marth probably would be good in the usual 6-7 range.

Marth isn't a top 10 character IMO.

 

[theunabletable]

^Doesn't he have only like one or two bad matchups?

How does that NOT warrant top 10?

 

[V]

^Doesn't he have only like one or two bad matchups?

How does that NOT warrant top 10?

Exactly. Marth is top 6. He's better than King Dedede.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

^Doesn't he have only like one or two bad matchups?

How does that NOT warrant top 10?

1 because tier list aren't based solely on match ups.
2. a lot of his match ups are too far skewed in his favor.

 

[Kewkky]

1 because tier list aren't based solely on match ups.
2. a lot of his match ups are too far skewed in his favor.

What about tourney results? He's been top 5 in results for quite a while.

 

[phi1ny3]

lol very true, AL, I'm certain one man's opinion isn't going to change a bunch esp. if it's agreed on by a lot of top players on both sides, much less from a person's perspective who doesn't get the strength of his tools.

 

[theunabletable]

1 because tier list aren't based solely on match ups.
2. a lot of his match ups are too far skewed in his favor.

1. Not soley, but having the second best matchups in the game clearly puts you in the top 10. And tourney results show him as really good.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

What about tourney results? He's been top 5 in results for quite a while.

Really I must have missed it.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

lol very true, AL, I'm certain one man's opinion isn't going to change a bunch esp. if it's agreed on by a lot of top players on both sides, much less from a person's perspective who doesn't get the strength of his tools.

my tool is my sword and I swing it what am I missing?

 

[phi1ny3]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=165954

^It's right here.

Not that the thread should determine character strength alone, but it does tend to show the tendency that Marth can be good in this game.

my tool is my sword and I swing it what am I missing?

Wow, MK does that too. I wonder how that piece of garbage gets anywhere

In all seriousness, these swings shut down a lot of the cast and in themselves are some of the best zoning options in the game. There are many opponents who can't punish combinations of fair alone without being punished and broken into. And that's not counting DB, Nair, jab, dtilt, grab, uair, and DS while he's in there.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=165954

^It's right here.

Not that the thread should determine character strength alone, but it does tend to show the tendency that Marth can be good in this game.


Wow, MK does that too. I wonder how that piece of garbage gets anywhere

In all seriousness, these swings shut down a lot of the cast and in themselves are some of the best zoning options in the game. There are many opponents who can't punish combinations of fair alone without being punished and broken into. And that's not counting DB, Nair, jab, dtilt, grab, uair, and DS while he's in there.

I forgot about that thread. I just be looking at the tourney results thread to see where people place.

 

[phi1ny3]

The results thread can be difficult to nab all the info from, but if you've seen the performance of several marths there's a reason there's like always at least like 2-4 marths on a state's PR lol.

 

[Albert.]

Really I must have missed it.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=165954

^It's right here.

wow LOL get WRECKED

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Pwn'd.

If you're going to claim a character should move drastically, at least...oh, I don't know, attempt to use logic instead of missing obvious things.

Seriously Legendary: you are wrong about Marth. Get over it. Heck, at least when I debate about PT, I only want him moved below one character, and into the lower tier. I have no clue where you're going off into when you talk about Marth. You aren't even bringing up things that are debatable...you're bringing up random claims like "His MUs are overrated".

 

[phi1ny3]

Still though there are a few things people haven't learned about marth...

Spoiler

Like tipper dsmash is techable, and people need to get better at SDIing DB

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Still though there are a few things people haven't learned about marth...

You can say that about every character in the game. >_>

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I still see people telling me I'm play Lucario wrong and that I should Side-B chaingrab people. LOLdoesn'twork.

 

[Vex Kasrani]

I honestly don't see a CP problem with IC's if they can win game 1 on the neutral. Thats what should count IMO. Game 1 has to be on a neutral, so if they win game 1 and get taken to like, Brinstar, they might lose, but game 3 they can go back to a neutral. Seems pretty simple to me.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Strike FD, any other neutral should be manageable after that.

 

[Kinzer]

What about tourney results? He's been top 5 in results for quite a while.

Sonic has for the longest time been CONSISTENTLY OUTPLACING characters in his own tier, and then some a tier above him.

Of course, you have yourself a few upsets like his best placing ever being top 10 in reported rankings, but extremes shouldn't be used; that's why we have averages.

If Marth gets to be a top 5 character on the tier list for tournament results, Sonic should be at least mid-C tier by this same logic, if not the captain of C-Tier.

But of course, people will baw tournament results are not the only determining factor.

 

[Vex Kasrani]

Strike FD, any other neutral should be manageable after that.

The point is neutrals arnt bad stages for them for the most part, where people believe IC's are bad based on CP's. Does it really matter if they can get a neutral game 1 and win?

 

[Flayl]

Vex I think it depends rather on how badly a character does on whatever the neutral of the first game is.

If they only lose slightly on the neutral, and can CP something that gives them a really huge advantage, and the get CP'd to a stage where they only lose slightly, then yeah the MU is in the non-IC's favor.

 

[phi1ny3]

@Vex: And if a given character tends to benefit from more of the neutrals pool than not?

Edit: Kind of ties into what Flayl's asking, actually.

 

[Kewkky]

Sonic has for the longest time been CONSISTENTLY OUTPLACING characters in his own tier, and then some a tier above him.

Of course, you have yourself a few upsets like his best placing ever being top 10 in reported rankings, but extremes shouldn't be used; that's why we have averages.

If Marth gets to be a top 5 character on the tier list for tournament results, Sonic should be at least mid-C tier by this same logic, if not the captain of C-Tier.

But of course, people will baw tournament results are not the only determining factor.

I never said Marth should be top 5 in the tier list. AL said Marth shouldn't deserve being top 10, so I told him he's been getting top 5 placements for a while. o_o


As for ICs... Ban FD, and now you have stages with platforms. You have 2 (or more) floors to land and avoid grabs with... Seems highly beneficial for every single person.

 

[Vex Kasrani]

To my knowledge IC's don't do bad on BF, FD, or SV, so if a character seems to do better on that stage and wins the matchup, then that character probably beats IC's lol, so the CP'ing doesn't really matter because they lose the matchup regardless. Maybe I'm just wrong or not explaining myself correctly, so I won't continue debating this lol.

 

[Kewkky]

To my knowledge IC's don't do bad on BF, FD, or SV, so if a character seems to do better on that stage and wins the matchup, then that character probably beats IC's lol, so the CP'ing doesn't really matter because they lose the matchup regardless. Maybe I'm just wrong or not explaining myself correctly, so I won't continue debating this lol.

No one's saying ICs are bad on platformed stages, we're just saying that platformed stages might be of better benefit for the opponent than for the ICs. It's pretty common sense, actually, since you don't want flat, boring stages against them (this is neutrals talk, btw).

 

[Smoom77]

I'm agreeing with a lot of what Vex says. ICs are very good at the three basic neutrals. Our uair has a lot of priority and a good amount of damage. You don't want to be on a platform with ICs under you.

 

[Kewkky]

I'm agreeing with a lot of what Vex says. ICs are very good at the three basic neutrals. Our uair has a lot of priority and a good amount of damage. You don't want to be on a platform with ICs under you.

I would if it means not being on the same ground level as you on a flat stage with nothing to land on but the ground in front of you... I actually prefer being offstage vs ICs, or under them, but hey: everyone does so too. ;D

 

[DMG]

The other neutrals don't favor IC's that much TBH.

"Bad" IC neutrals:

YI
Lylat

Those two mess up IC's by noticeable margins for the majority of the cast playing against them.

"Slightly bad" neutrals:

Smashville/BF
PS1
CS (if it is a neutral for your area)
Delfino (if it is a neutral for your area)

These stages affect IC's negatively, but it is not as widespread among the remaining cast/not as severe.


IC's do really well on FD obviously. The other neutrals however have some aspects that make it much less appealing to play on than FD. Matchups might shift 5-10 points in the other character's favor just because you are now playing on Battlefield or Smashville. Take Falco for example. He get's mauled by them on FD, but introduce Smashville and he can try to camp the moving platform/play chicken all day. He might still lose, but just because the stage has a certain feature it makes it much harder for the IC's to win as usual.

I mean, sure you can argue that IC's do good on Battlefield or Smashville, but whenever I see matches being played on those stages I notice the platforms/other things being more harmful to the IC's than the benefits to be gained from them.

IC Uair is overrated. If the only thing you can threaten your opponent with reliably is an Uair, you are basically realizing that a large portion of their current game is nullified. IC's can maybe handle a person camping a platform, but you also have to realize that other person CAN move/shield/try to avoid you. Like saying "Oh well if they get on a platform, we just Uair" doesn't address what happens when they actively try to avoid it/try to get around that. If you explain the RPS game that takes place when you go for that Uair, and then explain why it is unfavorable for the opponent to stay in that position, then it means something much more than just "Get on Platform, we Uair. Don't do that."

 

[da K.I.D.]

The results thread can be difficult to nab all the info from, but if you've seen the performance of several marths there's a reason there's like always at least like 2-4 marths on a state's PR lol.

im pretty sure that its usually only one marth on most regions PR, its just that that one (NEO, MikeHaze, royr, Mr. R, Pierce, HRNut [does he still play marth?]) tends to be ranked pretty high on said PR

 

[da K.I.D.]

@ the IC discussion.

Smashville seems to be getting worse and worse as a stage for the ICs every day.

Its getting to the point where people are starting to actively counterpick the stage against them. solely to camp the platform.

It essentially turns an 8 minute match into a 4 minute match, because when the opponent is on the platform and the platform is past the edges of the stage (about half the time), they have a position that pretty much renders them unapproachable to the ICs.

add to that the fact that while waiting for the platform to leave the boundaries of the stage. the opponent (depending on their abilities) can either air camp, plank the ledge, or even just glide under it. you can effectively fight the ICs on that stage, not once touching the main floor. making the large majority of their game worthless.


my bad on the x2 post, i could have sworn somebody else was going to post again...

 

[phi1ny3]

That is true, I might be getting confused with those that use marth as a well practiced secondary against some MUs, at least that's what NorCal, SoCal, WA, and some other lists say at least.
They might not be consistent, but they do place with him quite often.

 

[DMG]

The gliding under the stage, that is something you can already do on stages like BF too. It's just more pronounced on Smashville because the platform acts as a "diving board" for MK giving him extra room from the "edge of the pool". That and when MK needs to get back onstage, after gliding under the platform will move towards him and he can continue to camp as needed.

 

[phi1ny3]

^lol as seen exhibited by M2K @ Viridian City.

 

[Nic64]

im pretty sure that its usually only one marth on most regions PR, its just that that one (NEO, MikeHaze, royr, Mr. R, Pierce, HRNut [does he still play marth?]) tends to be ranked pretty high on said PR

Darc was also #2 in NE last I checked, don't feel like going to find it now but yeah, that would appear to be the trend.

 

[infomon]

^lol as seen exhibited by M2K @ Viridian City.

sweet, are there vids of this?