The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[Espy Rose]

lolwut

a van is a vehicle, does that make a van a car?

your logic has confused me.

Maybe he considers a Car a Topic, while he considers Vans, Trucks, etc. as SubTopics.

I dunno.

 

[DMG]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automobile

 

[Espy Rose]

Thanks for the buzz kill ya' jerk.

 

[DMG]

You're welcome.

Captain Buzzkill STRIKES AGAIN!!!

 

[Morrigan]

If you want something official, Nintendo.com says it's a Fighter. Smash Dojo says it's an Action game. Wikipedia says it's Fighter, Action and Platformer (SSE).
So yeah it's a mixture of these 3. Don't forget Smash games have other stuff than just Survival fighting matches.

 

[CaliburChamp]

havent we been over this? all three pokemon used equally is really bad.

if you want to be accurate, you should say pokemon trainer used correctly, instead of equally.

and CC, what makes you put sonic below the three characters that he is above in the current sbr list? (shiek, lucas and ness) im curious.

Averaging is the way to go. Baseball players have averages about how good they are at bat. So why not this? If you want to get technical about it, if you use Charizard and Ivysaur most of the time, PT is a low tier, if you use Squirtle most of the time, Pokemon Trainer would be middle mid tier, if you use Squirtle 100% of the time, PT is high mid tier. It's also the reason why I counted each pokemon independantly.

Ness, Lucas and Shiek... they have more options than Sonic. More gimping potential than Sonic, better kill options. The only things Sonic really have over those 3 are speed, and recovery. Also, Shaky placed 13th using Ness 100% at Winterfest, a national tournament in Florida. I don't think even the best Sonic can get that high, if the best Sonic did come to Winterfest, the highest I can see him place is 17th. I say this because most of the people that have participated at that tournament, go to tournaments a lot and are all well known. For a ness player to place that high in such an big enviroment filled with pros, that says something about how underated Ness is... as well as Lucas, they don't deserve to be in low tier if they place that high. Middle tier characters are able to sneak in there like Shaky has. Although I'm sure most people would agree with me, that Shiek is a better character than Sonic.

A 10.0 character? Unbeatable?

No, that doesn't mean he is unbeatable, it means he is the best character in this game. I put numbers in there so you can tell how far apart they really are in usefulness.

 

[stingers]

What's sad is that Ike is clearly worthy of Mid Tier but he'll never be put there because then he won't be legal in low tier tournaments anymore. It's a shame.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Averaging is the way to go. Baseball players have averages about how good they are at bat. So why not this? If you want to get technical about it, if you use Charizard and Ivysaur most of the time, PT is a low tier, if you use Squirtle most of the time, Pokemon Trainer would be middle mid tier, if you use Squirtle 100% of the time, PT is high mid tier. It's also the reason why I counted each pokemon independantly.

When a baseball player goes up to bat (for the example lets say each dude gets 3 at bats per game) they dont use wood for one at bat, aluminum for the 2nd and hollow plastic for the third.

if you want to rank pokemon trainer accurately, you cant average them equally. you rank characters based on the top of the metagame. and this is whats happening at the top of the meta
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgiGicIUG-Y
as much squirtle as conceivably possible. thus they should reflect as such on your list.

Ness, Lucas and Shiek... they have more options than Sonic. More gimping potential than Sonic, better kill options. The only things Sonic really have over those 3 are speed, and recovery. Also, Shaky placed 13th using Ness 100% at Winterfest, a national tournament in Florida. I don't think even the best Sonic can get that high, if the best Sonic did come to Winterfest, the highest I can see him place is 17th. I say this because most of the people that have participated at that tournament, go to tournaments a lot and are all well known. For a ness player to place that high in such an big enviroment filled with pros, that says something about how underated Ness is... as well as Lucas, they don't deserve to be in low tier if they place that high. Middle tier characters are able to sneak in there like Shaky has. Although I'm sure most people would agree with me, that Shiek is a better character than Sonic.

alright your going to have to elaborate here, I cant tell if you referencing one character or all three with some of your statements. cus if you were just making blanket statements for all three, that would mean that you are saying things like Sheik has better kill options and ness is a better gimper

but one thing I can tell you now is that none of those 3 characters have more options than sonic. Sonic has more options than pretty much everyone outside of top tier. Now if you wanted to say that they have BETTER options or MORE options that are GOOD, thats entirely different.

also just so were clear here, I never said you were wrong, I just asked you to explain, and since your explanation was confusing, im asking you to clarify.


EDIT
Stingers is a smart guy sometimes.

 

[Nic64]

if you use Squirtle 100% of the time, PT is high mid tier.

Squirtle is top tier if you have hacks to just use him IMO

 

[DMG]

Shaky got 13th, but should he have? From a player perspective, probably. From a character perspective, hell no. Throw 2 decent/good Marth players in his Bracket and I guarantee you he won't get 13th if only because of his character's flaws.

When you play a lower tier character with a hard counter like Marth is to Ness, the odds are severely stacked against you. This doesn't mean that they will 100% be stacked against you, as that would assume that everyone would play said hard counter decently enough. Obviously this isn't the case, so characters like Ness and Sonic are given "chances" to do well because although they aren't amazing as characters, their hard counters were mostly absent from the tournament. Ness is still pretty much low tier, he just has good days where Marth isn't hiding around every corner.

 

[Vermy]

When a baseball player goes up to bat (for the example lets say each dude gets 3 at bats per game) they dont use wood for one at bat, aluminum for the 2nd and hollow plastic for the third.

This made me lol. I may just Sig this. Granted Ivysaur is probably the equivalent of using a cattle prod. It will hit really hard when it does, but its like bringing a knife to a gun fight. You'll also feel like it was luck that allowed you to hit that ball.

And Zard isn't as bad as people give him credit for. A couple respected PT mains suggest he may be better than Squirtle at the highest level of play. Space one move incorrectly and you might eat a sweet 65% from a Rocksmash>Usmash combo.

 

[smashkng]

Squirtle is top tier if you have hacks to just use him IMO

Until you face Marth and he kills you with the grab release chain grab into spike. Plus you must deal with his speed + infinitely better range.

 

[Poltergust]

Or a Yoshi. >.>

 

[C.box]

Shaky got 13th, but should he have? From a player perspective, probably. From a character perspective, hell no. Throw 2 decent/good Marth players in his Bracket and I guarantee you he won't get 13th if only because of his character's flaws.

When you play a lower tier character with a hard counter like Marth is to Ness, the odds are severely stacked against you. This doesn't mean that they will 100% be stacked against you, as that would assume that everyone would play said hard counter decently enough. Obviously this isn't the case, so characters like Ness and Sonic are given "chances" to do well because although they aren't amazing as characters, their hard counters were mostly absent from the tournament. Ness is still pretty much low tier, he just has good days where Marth isn't hiding around every corner.

Actually shaky did have a marth.

Shaky lost to chaz to get his 13th spot, chaz the best marth in fl.

And he lost to ally in winners.

It isn't like he had an easy bracket I mean he DID have a marth and the second best player in the world. (Along with beating dphat.)

 

[Nic64]

Until you face Marth and he kills you with the grab release chain grab into spike. Plus you must deal with his speed + infinitely better range.

One bad matchup shouldn't be that influential, if it were then Marth should be mid tier too for what MK does to him, Falco's S tier and IC's **** him up etc.

I also don't think it's that horrible, no worse than the matchups I just mentioned anyway. If you ban FD what other stages does this reliably work on? And Squirtle isn't exactly the easiest character to grab to begin with.

 

[Albert.]

One bad matchup shouldn't be that influential, if it were then Marth should be mid tier too for what MK does to him, Falco's S tier and IC's **** him up etc.

I'd question just how bad that really is though, Squirtle isn't exactly easy to grab to begin with.

this ^^^^


also, Shaky was ridiculously hard to grab btw. He MUST be top 3 Nesses, He was insanely hard to even touch. His doubles team with nick Riddle was amazing (ZSS can heal Ness) and took games some of the best teams. Shaky is the FOW of South/EC

The set between chaz and shaky was really close btw.

 

[Turbo Ether]

This made me lol. I may just Sig this. Granted Ivysaur is probably the equivalent of using a cattle prod. It will hit really hard when it does, but its like bringing a knife to a gun fight. You'll also feel like it was luck that allowed you to hit that ball.

And Zard isn't as bad as people give him credit for. A couple respected PT mains suggest he may be better than Squirtle at the highest level of play. Space one move incorrectly and you might eat a sweet 65% from a Rocksmash>Usmash combo.

I love Charizards pokes. If only his jab true-combo'd.

 

[Shaya]

"One bad matchup shouldn't be that influential, if it were then Marth should be mid tier too for what MK does to him, Falco's S tier and IC's **** him up etc."

wait what? if it's so easy for Meta Knight then what's your region and I'm sure I could list a Marth or two who'd be happy to money match you for any amount.

 

[stingers]

Yeah, the Midwest has some awesome Marths >.>

 

[Kinzer]

One bad matchup shouldn't be that influential, if it were then Marth should be mid tier too for what MK does to him, Falco's S tier and IC's **** him up etc.

Then we can simply ignore how some characters are ruined by other characters, and then throw out hybridization out the window and call it day.

No... Nevermind how popular a bad matchup is, the fact that one is just there should say something about how good a character is on their own.

I thought a tier list was suppose to represent a character at the top of the metagame, where people are going to be f*****s and counterpick to gain the advantage if they can.

Isn't Meta Knight as good as he is because he is his own worst matchup and at worst goes even with everybody else?

 

[Turbo Ether]

Meh, I think dmbrandon has done an adequate job of demonstrating what MK does to Marth. He's beaten every notable Marth in Atlantic North (well, I don't know if he's played Kadaj, actually). He's two and three stocked Pierce and Eazy in tournament. He's beaten Minty, he's beaten Neo.

 

[Shaya]

God ****it?

Mid west? Out of anything?

Bleh, the best the place has to offer is Lain's Marth.
GAHhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
Maybe Ankoku... maybe... ughhhhhhhhhhhh

and dmbrandon's been out for a while. Perceptions and play styles change over time to accomodate such match ups.
Plus dmbrandon pretty much never lost to anyone other than M2K. At cot4 he barely lost to Ally?

 

[Turbo Ether]

Nah, he loses to various people and doesn't really enter singles too often anymore.

 

[Shaya]

Was this prior to when he pretty much said he quit?

 

[ShadowLink84]

PROMETHEUS!

Spoiler

Cause I like Chrono Cross, and it's a cooler name.

Anyway, lifeline ftw! First time I ever got the developer's room ending on first playthrough I abused that tech so hard.


Yea, so Robo + Marle + Chrono = god tier.

Not really.
Marle is crap.
Frog is a bit better.
You want Luca or Magus or even better, Ayla. Ayla is AWESOME.

^^ no, you fail for keeping Robo in your party

lol

Crisis arm craps on you.

Averaging is the way to go. Baseball players have averages about how good they are at bat. So why not this? If you want to get technical about it, if you use Charizard and Ivysaur most of the time, PT is a low tier, if you use Squirtle most of the time, Pokemon Trainer would be middle mid tier, if you use Squirtle 100% of the time, PT is high mid tier. It's also the reason why I counted each pokemon independantly.

You're FORCED to switch pokemon when you die.
You are FORCED to switch when they are exhausted.
You dont have a choice. yeah you can choose whom you use at the BEGINNING. Thats it though, so not you cant count them individually because you are FORCED to use them.

Ness, Lucas and Shiek... they have more options than Sonic.

No they don't. Sonic has pretty much the most options save for character in high/top tier.

More gimping potential than Sonic,

No not really. being able to recover from pretty much everywhere allows him more flexibility than most.

The rest of your argument is stupid.
Que references to past Sonics doing well in well known tournaments.
Get my point?
If no one is counterpicking you properly, playing against you properly, obviously it isn't going to reflect the character's abilities accurately.
ness and Lucas have bad matchups, Marth is a REALLY bad matchup.
Let alone that Sonic's MU's are currently better.

Sheik I think is better.
The motherboys?
NO.
MU wise they are inferior.

 

[Turbo Ether]

Probably may-july, if I remember correctly. So pretty long ago. I don't remember exactly when he played all these Marths.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Why is it that people think Metaknight devours Marth?

Marth loses to him, but he doesn't have it lower than 60:40.

 

[Browny]

Because marth mains needed an excuse to compensate for their lack of tournament domination?

I dont think any top level marths still think its worse than 40:60 :/

 

[Poltergust]

40:60 match-ups are not even that bad. >_>

 

[Turbo Ether]

So, what discoveries have been made, that make people think Marth no longer gets ***** by MK?

 

[Browny]

No discoveries, people just finally stopped whinging about how MK is unfair, should be banned etc and actually bothered to play the game and learn the MU instead of playing super theorycraft brawl all day and night. Marth has always had a decent MU vs MK, one of the best of the entire cast IMO. TBH I think the whole 'mk ***** marth' thing stemmed from Marths less-than-stellar tournament record for a while and people blamed MK for the entirelty of it, never accepting characters like Diddy, Snake, DDD, IC's etc were actually a threat, despite many good marths being knocked out by these characters >_>

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Why is it that people think Metaknight devours Marth?

Marth loses to him, but he doesn't have it lower than 60:40.

I'm questioning this as well.

 

[Shaya]

Marth vs Meta Knight is a lot more mentally taxing for the Marth than any other match up he has to play with.

Marth v Meta Knight is probably like X vs Ice Climbers. Or better yet, Ice Climbers v Snake.
For ICs to win (and Ally/Swordgard are saying it's even...) they have to be technically proficient in all ways because of the 'natural' disadvantage they have. Their mistakes cost them badly. But ICs have all the tools necessary to win.

The match up is not a matter of Marth can't do anything to MK, this isn't true at all, Marth has options for everyone of MK's 'things', and compared to other characters, a ****ton of them. The way to win is just more taxing to the player throughout a set.

So that may sound Super Theory Bros. to you, but technical aspects (I call it technical, blow me) become natural to players over time. The thing is, that the spacing war between the characters actually slightly favours Marth (spacing 'safely'). MK ***** Marth in bad positions, but Marth wins in aerial combat (however things like MK's dair can stop Marth from getting into the air in the first place).

Also Marth loses to planking MK.
Just like every other character.

 

[Espy Rose]

40:60 match-ups are not even that bad. >_>

Unless you're Sonic, who has like, 4:6's across the entire ****ing board above low tier.

 

[ChaosDrifter]

Marth vs Meta Knight is a lot more mentally taxing for the Marth than any other match up he has to play with.

Marth v Meta Knight is probably like X vs Ice Climbers. Or better yet, Ice Climbers v Snake.
For ICs to win (and Ally/Swordgard are saying it's even...) they have to be technically proficient in all ways because of the 'natural' disadvantage they have. Their mistakes cost them badly. But ICs have all the tools necessary to win.

The match up is not a matter of Marth can't do anything to MK, this isn't true at all, Marth has options for everyone of MK's 'things', and compared to other characters, a ****ton of them. The way to win is just more taxing to the player throughout a set.

So that may sound Super Theory Bros. to you, but technical aspects (I call it technical, blow me) become natural to players over time. The thing is, that the spacing war between the characters actually slightly favours Marth (spacing 'safely'). MK ***** Marth in bad positions, but Marth wins in aerial combat (however things like MK's dair can stop Marth from getting into the air in the first place).

Also Marth loses to planking MK.
Just like every other character.

Shaya's got it right, playing against MK is a tough match because you have to play your absolute best and then some the entire set

 

[adumbrodeus]

The problem is, the reality is that on an even level of play, you will get read a few times, and Marth getting successfully read is a lot worse then the reverse because MK ***** you in bad positions.


Also, ftilt option selects you. F*** ftilt.

Not really.
Marle is crap.
Frog is a bit better.
You want Luca or Magus or even better, Ayla. Ayla is AWESOME.

Individually they're crap. But Lifeline is an amazing insurance policy, and it's essential if you wanna get developer's room ending on your first play through

Spoiler

remember, only way to get it is to fight the souped up lavos at the ocean palace, the fight you're supposed to lose, and it's not like you've got access to any of the top weapons or armors.

Basically, individually they're all better, but lifeline places the combination of the 3 (chrono, marle, robo) as amazing, and absolutely essential for some things.

 

[LanceStern]

You're not forced to switch Pokemon when they are exhausted

 

[Espy Rose]

Shaya's got it right, playing against MK is a tough match because you have to play your absolute best and then some the entire set

HEY!

That applies for ANYONE vs. Meta Knight!!
How about that.

 

[Suspect]

how bout u mad espy

how bout dat

 

[Espy Rose]

I think umad about how imad about how hemad about how theymad.