The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[T-block]

It isn't looked upon this way?

Why not?

The Pokemon Trainer user is obviously going to stick with the better choice(s) throughout the set at the highest levels of play, so instead of averaging the ratio for all 3 Pokemon, it should be averaged out only for the Pokemon('s') that will do best in a respective match-up, while accounting other factors that Pokemon Trainer & his Pokemon have (such as fatigue & switching).

Eh, there were a couple of people arguing a while back for averaging the three, and for having each pokemon listed individually.

 

[Sasha]

On a serious and on-topic note, Kirby, that one character that seems to have what is good, but is suffering from decay and a melancholy metagame that seems only to excel in punishment and novelty. Yet there are some that believe this is enough to hold weight in this current age in Brawl's game. What do people think about Kirby now specifically?

Meh... I'm a Kirby main in Brawl, and I have very few problems with move decay. Pummels/grab combos/u-tilt seem to work well in refreshing bair for most MU's. Unless you're facing someone who refuses to be grabbed.

His options are far too limited to really allow him to be viable though. Bairs, rolls, and grab combos are good, but not great.

IMO zss and lucario deserve spots above him. Olimar and Pika too probably. Kirby does well against like... Falco in high/top tier. GnW and Snake **** him pretty well. And I hate MK in this MU more than anyone else.

tl; dr: good, but not good enough.

 

[Shaya]

One has to take an evaluation of how each character pits up.

Like, if Ivysaur is useless, but the other two characters do alright, then Ivy's uselessness may be neglible in high level play; switching out safely, etc.

Or if charizard does well, and the opponent doesn't have much kill power / is light themselves, Charizard may be able to handle tanking 2 stocks at a time.

It's important with pokemon trainer that at least one of the pokes do okay, and usually this is Charizard for stock tanking purposes for Squirtle. Squirtle is by far and beyond the most helpful pokemon in generally all match ups, and it's Zard's job to reset the fatigue timer.

So in other words PT match up ratios:
1. Take character with best ratio.
2. Hope the one that comes before them in the switch doesn't have a fail ratio.
2a. Charizard's ability to plainly survive in a match up is highly important to any Squirtle based match up.
3. Are based on how well one character (i.e. the pivot) can survive to relieve fatigue on other pokes / find opportunities to switch.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Yup, I see three lucario mains troublemakers at work in this thread already...

Jesse!
James!

Lucario mains, kings of off topic discussion!

On a serious and on-topic note, Kirby, that one character that seems to have what is good, but is suffering from decay and a melancholy metagame that seems only to excel in punishment and novelty. Yet there are some that believe this is enough to hold weight in this current age in Brawl's game. What do people think about Kirby now specifically?

Well, he still has some good mains repping him, Chu dat being the most popular of them.

He hasn't advanced but really nothing has really been hurting him since his punishment game is still allowing him to stay quite high.

The only characters that should go above him are Lucario and ZSS.

One has to take an evaluation of how each character pits up.

Like, if Ivysaur is useless, but the other two characters do alright, then Ivy's uselessness may be neglible in high level play; switching out safely, etc.

Or if charizard does well, and the opponent doesn't have much kill power / is light themselves, Charizard may be able to handle tanking 2 stocks at a time.

It's important with pokemon trainer that at least one of the pokes do okay, and usually this is Charizard for stock tanking purposes for Squirtle. Squirtle is by far and beyond the most helpful pokemon in generally all match ups, and it's Zard's job to reset the fatigue timer.

So in other words PT match up ratios:
1. Take character with best ratio.
2. Hope the one that comes before them in the switch doesn't have a fail ratio.
2a. Charizard's ability to plainly survive in a match up is highly important to any Squirtle based match up.
3. Are based on how well one character (i.e. the pivot) can survive to relieve fatigue on other pokes / find opportunities to switch.

What happens when one of them has an advantage and the other two wither go even or are at a disadvantage?

 

[da K.I.D.]

as far as kirby goes, no matter how stale kirby is, or how smart people get, spaced bair on shield to missed opponent shield grab to f smash, will always be a combo, and as long as things like that still work kirby wont see any noticible drops any time soon.

 

[DMG]

G&W > Kirby

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Meh... I'm a Kirby main in Brawl, and I have very few problems with move decay. Pummels/grab combos/u-tilt seem to work well in refreshing bair for most MU's. Unless you're facing someone who refuses to be grabbed.

His options are far too limited to really allow him to be viable though. Bairs, rolls, and grab combos are good, but not great.

IMO zss and lucario deserve spots above him. Olimar and Pika too probably. Kirby does well against like... Falco in high/top tier. GnW and Snake **** him pretty well. And I hate MK in this MU more than anyone else.

tl; dr: good, but not good enough.

This.

ZSS for top 10! x)

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

no matter how smart people get, spaced bair on shield to missed opponent shield grab to f smash, will always be a combo, and as long as things like that still work

I think I see a problem in your logic here.

 

[SGF rocker]

How much further do u think donkey kong will drop on the edt tier.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

ZSS could be top 10, but top 10 isn't good enough to compete anymore, lol.

Basically:

MK
Snake
Diddy

These are set. These three characters are easily the bet in the game.

Wario
Falco
ICs
Marth
Dedede

These perform well, but have one or more soft counters and sometimes a hard counter in the top 3 or amongst themelves.

Squirtle
ZSS
Pikachu
Olimar
Pit
Lucario

Thes characters all have incredible strenghths (zss' aerial/combo game, pikachu's mobility and chaingrab game, olimar's grab game, etc) but are offset by crippling matchups in the tiers above them and perhaps even crippling weaknesses (ZSS vs. Falco, Pikachu vs. Marth). They are characters worthy of high tier if not for unfortunate weaknesses they just happen to have.

Game and Watch
Kirby
ROB
Peach
DK
Toon Link
Fox

These characters are very well-designed and strong but have unwinnable match-ups, telegraphed or predictable approach games, or exploitable recovery. These are typically the worst characters worth playing.

Ivysaur
Charizard
Luigi
Wolf
Sonic
Sheik
Ness
Mario
Link

These characters are good characters that suffer from one extremely large hole (such as KO power, infinites, etc) and are generally not suitable for tournament play.

Lucas
Ike
Bowser
Zelda
Yoshi
Jigglypuff
Captain Falcon

These characters all have one gimmick or strength that when exploited correctly produce impressive results, but quickly fizzle out once the opponents learn how to avoid said gimmick. They also suffer from some of the problems of the previous category. These characters are not at all suitable for tournament play.

Ganondorf

lol

 

[smashmachine]

G&W > Kirby

OMG NO WAY [/sarcasm]

wait...those four? that's 5

 

[Nidtendofreak]

SMP, your list there is messed up.

Ivy for example has a HUGE hole in her game: recovery. Mario gets infinitied and yes isn't in the infinitied/bad list. DK should be down there as well due to how that list was made. Ness and Lucas, while different, are similar enough they should be in the same category in that list. Wolf gets basically 0-Death'd by Sheik, same Fox: according to that list they both need to be in the second lowest category.

I honestly have no clue what you were trying to do there: but you messed up.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

SMP, your list there is messed up.

Ivy for example has a HUGE hole in her game: recovery. Mario gets infinitied and yes isn't in the infinitied/bad list. DK should be down there as well due to how that list was made. Ness and Lucas, while different, are similar enough they should be in the same category in that list. Wolf gets basically 0-Death'd by Sheik, same Fox: according to that list they both need to be in the second lowest category.

I honestly have no clue what you were trying to do there: but you messed up.

Any character is affected by some or all of the categories that are listed above them.

Wait, Mario IS in the infinite'd list.

And I think Fox and Wolf's infinites are easily avoidable. I probably forgot a few things, but that's generally where I feel each character belongs, with some sway based on proven results (showing that despite these weaknesses, some characters can do well, fox and peach for instance).

Top:
Meta Knight, Snake, Diddy Kong, Falco, Wario

High:
Dedede, ICs, Marth, Pikachu, [Squirtle], ZSS, Olimar, Lucario, Pit, Peach

Mid:
Game and Watch, Toon Link, Kirby, DK, Ness, Fox, [Ivysaur, Charizard], Pokemon Trainer, Luigi, Sheik, Mario, Wolf, Sonic, Link

Bottom:
Lucas, Ike, Samus, Bowser, Zelda, Yoshi, Jigglypuff, Captain Falcon

Ganon tier:
Ganondorf

 

[SGF rocker]

Wow my spelling sucks. I meant to say how far down do u think Donkey Kong will drop on the next tier list?

 

[Red Arremer]

lol, Link being anything above absolutely worthless.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

lol, Link being anything above absolutely worthless.

You never played a good link.


SFP:
Nice list, would however put wario lower in his section, drop d3 a tier, and put ness a tier higher. overall well though out.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

lol, Link being anything above absolutely worthless.

News Flash, maybe you missed the memo, but anyone below top tier is pretty much worthless.

Being "high tier" in Brawl just means that you can place barely out of the money.

Link is worthless, but so are characters like Luigi, ZSS, Pit, Game and Watch, etc. These characters straddle high or mid tier but still can't compete. The game has 6-7 characters worth playing at all unless you don't mind placing 10-15th.

So really:

MK Tier:
MK

Worth Playing Tier:
Snake, Diddy Kong, Falco, Wario, Dedede, ICs, Marth,

Not Worth Playing
Pikachu, [Squirtle], ZSS, Olimar, Lucario, Pit, Peach, Game and Watch, Toon Link, Kirby, DK, Ness, Fox, [Ivysaur, Charizard], Pokemon Trainer, Luigi, Sheik, Mario, Wolf, Sonic, Link, Lucas, Ike, Samus, Bowser, Zelda, Yoshi, Jigglypuff, Captain Falcon

Ganon tier:
Ganondorf

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

News Flash, maybe you missed the memo, but anyone below top tier is pretty much worthless.

Being "high tier" in Brawl just means that you can place barely out of the money.

Link is worthless, but so are characters like Luigi, ZSS, Pit, Game and Watch, etc. These characters straddle high or mid tier but still can't compete. The game has 6-7 characters worth playing at all unless you don't mind placing 10-15th.

So really:

MK Tier:
MK

Worth Playing Tier:
Snake, Diddy Kong, Falco, Wario, Dedede, ICs, Marth,

Not Worth Playing
Pikachu, [Squirtle], ZSS, Olimar, Lucario, Pit, Peach, Game and Watch, Toon Link, Kirby, DK, Ness, Fox, [Ivysaur, Charizard], Pokemon Trainer, Luigi, Sheik, Mario, Wolf, Sonic, Link, Lucas, Ike, Samus, Bowser, Zelda, Yoshi, Jigglypuff, Captain Falcon

Ganon tier:
Ganondorf

Marth isn't worth playing LoL that's a joke.

 

[Zankoku]

He's more worth playing than at least two thirds of the cast. :V

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

He's more worth playing than at least two thirds of the cast. :V

This.

Also re: link

Most of the guys saying Link is bottom tier have not played good Links. I have played Links like Kirin, Legan, and even some lesser-known ones like sook, etc. Link has enough going for him that he's worthles in a more Mario-oriented way and not in a Ganon kind of way.

 

[mountain_tiger]

Wow my spelling sucks. I meant to say how far down do u think Donkey Kong will drop on the next tier list?

What makes you think that he should drop at all? IMO, he should rise a couple of spots. If you have a solid secondary for DDD, and to a lesser extent Wario (ICs are tough but doable), Donkey Kong is definitely tourney viable. Besides, who below him is worthy of rising above him in the tier list?

 

[Luigi player]

What makes you think that he should drop at all? IMO, he should rise a couple of spots. If you have a solid secondary for DDD, and to a lesser extent Wario (ICs are tough but doable), Donkey Kong is definitely tourney viable. Besides, who below him is worthy of rising above him in the tier list?

But you don't consider secondaries in the tier list. If that would be the case everyone could be the same tier, because everyone can have MK as a secondary...

 

[BSP]

I wouldn't say Link is worthless either, or at least not Ganon level.

So, brawl is heading toward 8 characters and the others?

Does anyone think Sonic is going anywhere?

@ Luigi Player

Could and in a competitive sense, should have MK as a second.

 

[smashkng]

Lol Link. Every single time Link's offstage vs characters like DDD and MK he is basically KOed. Missed grounded up b/grab/dair leaves him extremely open. Almost all characters can early gimp him, which makes his weight super-lightweight when he is actaully a super-heavyweight if you know how to DI. He has one of the worst mobilities in the game, especially his air speed, and his projectiles can be reacted to (they aren't lagless). DDD can chain grab Link to death because it set ups offstage and bair is way too good.

 

[BSP]

Lol Link. Every single time Link's offstage vs characters like DDD and MK he is basically KOed. Missed grounded up b/grab/dair leaves him extremely open. Almost all characters can early gimp him, which makes his weight super-lightweight when he is actaully a super-heavyweight if you know how to DI. DDD can chain grab Link to death because it set ups offstage and bair is way too good.

For the most part you're right, but Link can DI. Unless he gets spiked or semi spiked, he should be able to make it back. Can't MK gimp almost everyone?

 

[smashkng]

DDD and MK can definitely gimp Link with no hope of coming back. MK gimps Link at much earlier percent than almost everyone. And Link at least takes damage for being offstage against almost everyone. If he loses his double jump then it's even worse for Link. And if he mashes up b when he gets hit he'll only go straight up with his poor up b height.

 

[orange/xd]

Link isn't bottom IMO, but he'd definitely not mid.

 

[DMG]

Christ.

Look everyone, Link/any character can DI. This won't completely save them if they SUCK at getting back to the stage. Wario can DI and survive stuff like Link at all the same amazing angles(maybe slightly better), what separates him from Link?

Link/the player having good DI doesn't change the fact that his offstage options for recovering are still lacking. It just shortens the distance you have to cover.

 

[Chuee]

Link also has terrible air control.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I don't think many people here are actually talking about one of my mains correctly.

Link can recover from DDD's chaingrab, Kirin, Deva, and Legan recover from these situations as I've seen. Also DDD's should Fthrow Link rather than try a Dthrow to Dtilt, it doesn't work, Fthrow is better for setting Link up for a gimp. Link's recovery is garbage, while good Link's do recover and avoid gimps as much as possible it doesn't change the fact Link is very gimpable. Unlike Wario who has inane air mobility, Bike, and in rare cases waft.

MK shouldn't let Link back on, period. Yes Link can Boomerang and Zair to help keep himself safe, but MK just needs to space himself with Dair if Link recovers low.

Link vs DDD is pretty much platform camping while projectile camping like Kirin does, he's the best when it comes to camping with Link. Link is hard camping while running away the whole matcfh sinced pretty much every move that touches DDD's sheild is going to get him grabbed, except stuff like Dair bouncing off his Shield or Zair.

~

You people and your viable and unviable bull****.

There is a difference between character that are easier to win with and characters that are harder to win with.

A lot of characters can compete fairly easily and others have to run an Olympic relay race to win.

Even if your character has a hard counter you can play it out and still win, it takes more work to do of course but ti's not impossible.

I know you people can tell the difference between near unwinnable, Ganon vs Ice Climbers, and really hard to win, R.O.B. vs MK.

You people are listing S and A tier characters as unviable WTF.

Seriously these boards sometimes are a ****ing joke.

 

[DMG]

Link is not good at recovering. This is factoring in good DI/everything that is expected of the player to do.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Being able to recover doesn't make him good at it.

 

[DMG]

The actual distance he can recover is on the average/below average, and his other recovery tools are average/below average. Most of the time, him recovering successfully says more about the other player/character than it does about Link. Not trying to argue with you, just making a general statement.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

The actual distance he can recover is on the average/below average, and his other recovery tools are average/below average. Most of the time, him recovering successfully says more about the other player/character than it does about Link. Not trying to argue with you, just making a general statement.

This I can agree with.

More so the point I was trying to make was that Link can recover in these situations, but his options to do so are as you said, not amazing.

I suppose I should apologize for sugar coating his options to get back on.

 

[humble]

Link I think is still leaps and bounds superior to Ganon and Falcon, despite his recovery.

 

[DMG]

Leaps and bounds over Ganon yes. Falcon it's a bit more complex. I think potential wise he has more for him than Link, but I also think Link currently has shown that he is more than Captain Falcon is, barring a change in Falcon.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

You guys missed the point completely. But while we're here, ZSS can't reliably gimp Link or even mess with him offstage so there's at least one character who can't.

 

[Spelt]

imo ganon's recovery is worse than links.
nothing like getting hit right after you grab someone with up-b.

 

[humble]

Leaps and bounds over Ganon yes. Falcon it's a bit more complex. I think potential wise he has more for him than Link, but I also think Link currently has shown that he is more than Captain Falcon is, barring a change in Falcon.

What about Falcon do you think potentially makes him better/what do you think the hidden potential is? I mean, looking at the characters and what I know about them I decided that Link is better, what led you to believe the captain is better?

 

[humble]

imo ganon's recovery is worse than links.
nothing like getting hit right after you grab someone with up-b.

The saddest thing is often you don't even need to gimp Link, his recovery is so bad that he will literally just fail to reach the ledge.

EDIT: crap double post sorry.