The Physics of Attacks (DI included) updated: 1/09/09

[SCOTU]

Well, when you're in hitlag, if you SDI into a surface, you don't "hit" it, so you can't tech off of it (you just go up against it)

 

[mugwhump]

Hmm... I know I've used SDI to make myself bounce off walls that I otherwise wouldn't have hit...but I was unable to reproduce it with moves that hit me up or down. I think maybe SDI can only make you wall bounce if the move's trajectory would send you into the wall if you were closer

 

[comboking]

good stuff Scotu!

 

[SCOTU]

Updated with more info about grabs

 

[Dark Sonic]

One question I've had for a while. Is it possible to smash DI during superarmor frames (do you even go through hitlag)? If so, would the attack continue from the new location? What would happen if you were to SDI into an area in which the attack could not take place (like SDI up during the super armor of Wario's F-smash)?

Okay, that was more than one question. Sorry.

 

[SCOTU]

I don't know if there's hitlag when hitting someone's SAF. I never really thought about it. My first guess is that there is hitlag, but SDI is disabled. I'll look into that if I have time, cause that's pretty interesting.

 

[Magus420]

There is hitlag. Don't know if you can SDI either though, but it wouldn't really make sense if you could. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoYmG4_6ews

Is it not possible to SDI certain attacks? Looking at Zelda's f/b-air you'd think you could SDI it like crazy, but I don't remember being able to do it once for that move. It's sort of a different kind of hitlag animation though. Maybe you can only SDI certain 'types' of hitlag?

 

[Zankoku]

Yeah, testing both on quarter speed and timer, I knew I had no problems with SDI because Falcon's Knee was easy, but it was impossible to go anywhere at all during the hitlag of Zelda's death kick.

 

[TriforceCore]

its funny how many player go play smash without ever knowing about DI thanx for the read

 

[A2ZOMG]

I KNEW IT! ASDI NO LONGER EXISTS! That's why multi-hit attacks connect so much more easily in Brawl!

IMO this is actually a good thing. This means there is more skill involved in escaping multi-hit attacks.

 

[Doval]

Is it not possible to SDI certain attacks? Looking at Zelda's f/b-air you'd think you could SDI it like crazy, but I don't remember being able to do it once for that move. It's sort of a different kind of hitlag animation though. Maybe you can only SDI certain 'types' of hitlag?

I believe this is a new kind of hit lag that was introduced. The first give-away is that you can't SDI it, but the second is that it lasts much, much longer than any other attack's hit lag. In Melee, the most hit lag any attack could ever have was 19 frames, because the window of opportunity for teching was 20 frames and you couldn't input the tech command during hit lag. As you know, that's a mere 1/3 of a second, but Zelda lags you a LOT more. Another hint is that if you shield it, Zelda stays frozen as if she connected, but you recover earlier. Wolf's f-tilt has this kind of hit lag too; I don't know of any other attacks. I like to call it Fake/False/Cinematic (since all it does is make the attack look cooler) Hit Lag, but that's just me.

And no, you can't SDI if you got hit during Super Armor.

Anyways, there's something that me and Maximuspita discovered over a year ago, and apparently no one else has noticed. It's been in since Melee, but it's less useful in Brawl: You can Smash DI (and in Melee, ASDI) when shielding. For obvious reasons, it can only be done left or right. It works the exact same way; smash a direction when you're in hit lag, and your shielding character will teleport left or right a short distance.

I used Fox in Melee, and doing a Shielded SDI forward would allow me to grab Ganondorf after his f-air no matter how well he spaced it. Also helped punish Samus's d-smash quite well. The main problem with this in Brawl is that the buffer system can screw you over, by buffering a roll if you smash the analog stick after the hit lag ends, but before your stun wears off. I would only recommend this against attacks with very high amounts of hit lag. I wouldn't recommend trying this against multi-hit attacks either, because now there's "gaps" between the hits in multi-hits where you can act, and doing a roll while shielding a multi-hit attack is very, very bad.

In short, it's mostly useless in Brawl. But if you want quick and easy proof that it exists, go to the Halberd Stage, shield the laser, and tap Left or Right rapidly. You'll see that your character moves, and if you tap furiously enough, you can even get out of the beam before it ends.

 

[Kirby M.D.]

Yeah, a lot of the big electric attacks have Cinematic Hitstun. Zelda's Bair/Fair and Ness's Bair are noticeable. Pikachu's DSmash, GDorf's Dair and the KNEE have smaller versions of it.

 

[Doval]

False; Ness's b-air, Pikachu's d-smash, Ganondorf's d-air and Falcon's Knee Smash all have normal hit lag and can be Smash DI'd to your heart's content. You can even get out of Pikachu's d-smash and avoid the last strong hit altogether. High amounts of hit lag shouldn't be confused with fake hit lag!

 

[Ulevo]

Don't mind me, simply posting to subscribe. Definitely a good read, though.

 

[sFoster]

Yeah, testing both on quarter speed and timer, I knew I had no problems with SDI because Falcon's Knee was easy, but it was impossible to go anywhere at all during the hitlag of Zelda's death kick.

Zelda is actually invulnerable for the "epic pause" during a sweet spotted kick, just a little FYI

Anyway I need some help with this teching thing.
I thought teching before you hit a wall or the ground was pressing the shield button before hand, like you're trying to air dodge an attack.

The OP also says something about wiggling the control stick back and forth?
How effective is that

 

[Doval]

Nitpicks.

Meteor Stun
Meteors (in the way they were in melee) are removed from this game. The term Meteor is simply a needless classification of attacks that have downward trajectories, but are in no way different from any other attacks. There is no Meteor Canceling, it just seems like it because there is just a really small amount of hitstun (like all other attacks).

This is false. Meteor Canceling was not removed. See this thread.

Well, when you're in hitlag, if you SDI into a surface, you don't "hit" it, so you can't tech off of it (you just go up against it)

You can most definitely SDI into a wall if the attack's knockback will send you towards the wall. If this still works as in Melee, the same should hold true of roofs and floors (i.e. you can SDI and slam into them if the attack's knockback is in that direction) but I haven't tested those myself.

Anyway I need some help with this teching thing.
I thought teching before you hit a wall or the ground was pressing the shield button before hand, like you're trying to air dodge an attack.

What exactly is confusing you? Teching is indeed hitting a shield button within a certain amount of time before you slam into a surface, so that you don't bounce off of it.

The OP also says something about wiggling the control stick back and forth?
How effective is that

Wiggling/detumbling is more or less pointless, because being in a state of tumbling doesn't prevent you from doing any actions. The only difference it makes is that you'll fall on your back if you touch the ground in that state, but you could just air dodge before touching the ground to avoid that.

---
EDIT: Forgot to address this as well.

Hitstun
Hitstun starts directly after hitlag. The person being hit undergoes this phase, and during it, can take no action of their own except teching. If a character is hit out of hitstun, this is called a true combo, and will register as consectutive hits in training mode.

This statement is not entirely true, because the game will let you perform any aerial (including Z button tethers) or air dodge shortly after being launched, and much sooner than Hit Stun should wear off. I've even "discovered" a small exploit based on that fact that lets you jump sooner when you're launched hard. See this thread.

 

[Lord Aether]

Yeah, a lot of the big electric attacks have Cinematic Hitstun. Zelda's Bair/Fair and Ness's Bair are noticeable. Pikachu's DSmash, GDorf's Dair and the KNEE have smaller versions of it.

Some of Marth's tippers also seems to have some.

 

[Karpman]

Thanks very much for laying this out. Only thing that could make it better are some simple diagrams. They do not have to be in game shots or anything, just some lines and arrows. I have a question about DI.

You say that the most effect DI can have is when you do it perpendicular to your trajectory. That means the direction you press must be at a 90 degree angle. So, you can't actually decrease the distance you fly by going into your trajectory by tilting the stick at like a 45 degree angle. I hope I am understanding this right. I've been pressing into my trajectory, and I'm not sure if I am having any effect or not.

 

[Doval]

Some of Marth's tippers also seems to have some.

I highly doubt that. I can't check until tomorrow, but again, don't confuse high amounts of hit lag with cinematic hit lag. If you can Smash DI during it (and it's very easy to tell just by doing it at 1/4 speed,) it is NOT cinematic hit lag.

You say that the most effect DI can have is when you do it perpendicular to your trajectory. That means the direction you press must be at a 90 degree angle. So, you can't actually decrease the distance you fly by going into your trajectory by tilting the stick at like a 45 degree angle. I hope I am understanding this right. I've been pressing into my trajectory, and I'm not sure if I am having any effect or not.

Two things. DI doesn't reduce the distance you fly, it just changes the angle of the trajectory so that you end up further away from the kill zones. Anyways, DI always has an effect, unless you're holding the same direction (or the exact opposite direction) as the attack. The change in the angle of trajectory will be greater the closer to 90 degree you get, but you're definitely changing the angle even if you're just holding the stick at a 45 degree angle.

 

[mugwhump]

Anyways, there's something that me and Maximuspita discovered over a year ago, and apparently no one else has noticed. It's been in since Melee, but it's less useful in Brawl: You can Smash DI (and in Melee, ASDI) when shielding. For obvious reasons, it can only be done left or right. It works the exact same way; smash a direction when you're in hit lag, and your shielding character will teleport left or right a short distance.

I used Fox in Melee, and doing a Shielded SDI forward would allow me to grab Ganondorf after his f-air no matter how well he spaced it. Also helped punish Samus's d-smash quite well. The main problem with this in Brawl is that the buffer system can screw you over, by buffering a roll if you smash the analog stick after the hit lag ends, but before your stun wears off. I would only recommend this against attacks with very high amounts of hit lag. I wouldn't recommend trying this against multi-hit attacks either, because now there's "gaps" between the hits in multi-hits where you can act, and doing a roll while shielding a multi-hit attack is very, very bad.

In short, it's mostly useless in Brawl. But if you want quick and easy proof that it exists, go to the Halberd Stage, shield the laser, and tap Left or Right rapidly. You'll see that your character moves, and if you tap furiously enough, you can even get out of the beam before it ends.

Very neat, I never knew that.

edit:

You can most definitely SDI into a wall if the attack's knockback will send you towards the wall. If this still works as in Melee, the same should hold true of roofs and floors (i.e. you can SDI and slam into them if the attack's knockback is in that direction) but I haven't tested those myself.

Yeah I tested, that's still in.

 

[Doval]

Very neat, I never knew that.

Thanks, I was starting to wonder if anyone noticed I posted that >_>

One more nitpick!

Note: SDI can only be performed with the control stick, not with the C-Stick.

You CAN SDI with the C-Stick if it's set to Smash or Special (if it's set to Attack aka tilts, it won't work.) Not sure if there's any other C-stick settings that'll allow it. There is a catch, though - you need to return the C-stick to its neutral position before you can input another SDI, unlike the Analog Stick which allows you to "roll" the stick and still get SDI inputs. Even so, it's very useful to be able to get an extra SDI or two in addition to what you'd normally get with the Analog Stick.

 

[Browny]

can someone explain how to DI from pikas dsmash. i can DI out of robs dsmash without even thinking about it but pikas traps me every time, and more annoying than that is sometimes i will be sent out at a relatviely low angle, i figure that because of my DI but then with the same amount, sometimes i get sent vertically and theres nothing you can do to stop thunder hitting

 

[Ulevo]

I have a few questions, if you wouldn't mind.

1) It is usually stated that good DI is done by using DI in the direction perpendicular to the trajectory of which you have been sent flying by an attack. Is this a generalize statement, or is it strict and specific? By that I mean... Normally, if you have an attack that sends to directly upwards, or 90 degrees, you would DI directly to the side, be it at 0 degrees or 180 degrees. Lets say for this example I want to DI to the right to avoid a stage hazard. If I am hit by an attack that sends me now at 70 degrees, or upwards and slightly to the left, would I be advised to DI 160 degrees so it is perfectly perpendicular with the trajectory I'm being sent in, or am I still advised to hold it to 180 degrees, being straight to the right?

2) From what I understand, you can use both the C Stick and the Analog to DI. Does one method of DIing provide more benefit? Would DIing with both of them in the same direction provide more benefit? And if I am to DI in two different directions, how would that effect the way I am sent flying?

3) I understand each stage is larger and smaller than the next, thus the KO Zones vary in size too. But does the actual shape of the KO zone vary as well?

 

[Dark Sonic]

can someone explain how to DI from pikas dsmash. i can DI out of robs dsmash without even thinking about it but pikas traps me every time, and more annoying than that is sometimes i will be sent out at a relatviely low angle, i figure that because of my DI but then with the same amount, sometimes i get sent vertically and theres nothing you can do to stop thunder hitting

You have to smash DI to get out of the down smash. I typically smash DI up a few times to get out, but you may be able to get out after the first hit by smash DIing towards Pikachu (so that the first hit will hit you out of range of the second hit and so on).

I have a few questions, if you wouldn't mind.

1) It is usually stated that good DI is done by using DI in the direction perpendicular to the trajectory of which you have been sent flying by an attack. Is this a generalize statement, or is it strict and specific? By that I mean... Normally, if you have an attack that sends to directly upwards, or 90 degrees, you would DI directly to the side, be it at 0 degrees or 180 degrees. Lets say for this example I want to DI to the right to avoid a stage hazard. If I am hit by an attack that sends me now at 70 degrees, or upwards and slightly to the left, would I be advised to DI 160 degrees so it is perfectly perpendicular with the trajectory I'm being sent in, or am I still advised to hold it to 180 degrees, being straight to the right?

The most pronounced DI is DIing perpindicular to the attack, as it has the greatest effect on the angle that you are sent at. However, any DI other than parallel to the attack's trajectory will have some effect on the angle you are sent at.

2) From what I understand, you can use both the C Stick and the Analog to DI. Does one method of DIing provide more benefit? Would DIing with both of them in the same direction provide more benefit? And if I am to DI in two different directions, how would that effect the way I am sent flying?

You can use both the C-stick and the analog stick to SmashDI, which is diferent than automatic DI, which can only be done with the analog stick. In melee you could also use the C-stick to ASDI (automatic smash DI), but that form of DI is not in brawl.

3) I understand each stage is larger and smaller than the next, thus the KO Zones vary in size too. But does the actual shape of the KO zone vary as well?

The KO zones do not vary in shape.

 

[SCOTU]

Updated stuff about Hitstun, SDI, and Meteor Cancelling.

 

[sFoster]

How do these phases of being hit change with the weight of the character?

I haven't looked into this a ton, but it seems like heavy characters have hardly any tumble momentum..
But the light characters can get killed in the tumble phase much easier, and tend to keep more of their momentum from the hitstun phase.

 

[SCOTU]

heavier characters have less hitstun. no one really gets killed by tumble because you can do anything out of tumble, so it doesn't matter how long it lasts.

 

[Doval]

Scotu, another nitpick! (I hope I'm not getting annoying yet =P)

Meteor Stun
Meteors have drastically changed since Melee. First, you can meteor cancel with both a double jump or an up-b, just as you could in melee. However, there is a certain window in which you can meteor cancel with a jump. If you perform it too soon, you won't be able to meteor cancel. However, this does not apply to up-bs: one can mash up-b starting when they're hit and expect an early meteor cancel.

It doesn't apply to jumping with the analog stick either. Even if you pressed jump too early, you can still jump using the analog stick if you have Tap Jump On. That's very important to keep in mind since some characters really need to jump before their Up B.

 

[SCOTU]

That's not nitpicking, that's correction. Also, it's not annoying, it's helpful. I don't always hear/ read about these things from their original sources, so It's natural for me to get some of this wrong. Thanks.

 

[Ulevo]

You have to smash DI to get out of the down smash. I typically smash DI up a few times to get out, but you may be able to get out after the first hit by smash DIing towards Pikachu (so that the first hit will hit you out of range of the second hit and so on).


The most pronounced DI is DIing perpindicular to the attack, as it has the greatest effect on the angle that you are sent at. However, any DI other than parallel to the attack's trajectory will have some effect on the angle you are sent at.


You can use both the C-stick and the analog stick to SmashDI, which is diferent than automatic DI, which can only be done with the analog stick. In melee you could also use the C-stick to ASDI (automatic smash DI), but that form of DI is not in brawl.



The KO zones do not vary in shape.

Thank you for answering my questions, I was curious about these specifics for a little while.

 

[sFoster]

I've noticed around he peak of a knockback moves actually behave differently.
For example, zelda's teleport is given an extra directional boost before she disappears.

This is useful for trickign people into thinking you're going one way, when you're really going another.
Does anyone know exactly what phase this is, hit stun or tumble?

 

[SCOTU]

although i can't really understand what you're asking, it sounds like it's part of Zelda's teleport move, not someone being hit by it, so it's not hitstun nor tumble. Those both refer to phases of being hit. What it sounds like you're describing is a specific part of an attack that causes a momentum effect for the user.

 

[Ulevo]

although i can't really understand what you're asking, it sounds like it's part of Zelda's teleport move, not someone being hit by it, so it's not hitstun nor tumble. Those both refer to phases of being hit. What it sounds like you're describing is a specific part of an attack that causes a momentum effect for the user.

Fox and Falco have this effect on their Fire Fox/Firebird. During the animation of their charge while flames envelope them, they can move one direction, let's say left, and then have it launch in the opposite direction, which would be right in my example. It is neat for a fake out, and comes in handy on an occasion or two. I'm not sure if Wolf has this effect.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Once again, that's got nothing to do with hitstun. It's part of their attack. If you are moving in a direction when you activate the side B, you maintain some of that momentum while charging the fire fox/bird. Characters with up Bs that have a lot of startup lag generally tend to be able to do this.

 

[Emperor Time]

I approve of this thread.

 

[Jayo]

I approve of this thread.

Good ****...The thread was quite informative


JLB​

 

[FadedImage]

So, I might have missed this somewhere in the original post, but what is it called when 2 disjointed hitboxes hit each other, but continue anyways? What are the rules for such an exchange? The easiest example I have found of this is ZSS's up-b against GaW's d-air. The disjointed plasma whip will hit the disjointed key, and they'll both continue their attacks. Why/how?

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^Aerials do not clank. And I'm pretty sure most specials don't clank either (I have never seen Marth's specials clank with anything)

 

[SuperDoodleMan]

Some specials can clank with aerials. Specials don't need to follow the rules.

I'd like to see some info on teching. I've teched the first hit of Wolf's fsmash, and Lucas' dsmash, on level ground. Such a skill would be very useful to have.

 

[SCOTU]

So, I might have missed this somewhere in the original post, but what is it called when 2 disjointed hitboxes hit each other, but continue anyways? What are the rules for such an exchange? The easiest example I have found of this is ZSS's up-b against GaW's d-air. The disjointed plasma whip will hit the disjointed key, and they'll both continue their attacks. Why/how?

Yes, there are rules for this. This is exactly what occurs when one attack has more intrisic priority than another. They'll clank, and one will overwrite the other.

Some specials can clank with aerials. Specials don't need to follow the rules.

I'd like to see some info on teching. I've teched the first hit of Wolf's fsmash, and Lucas' dsmash, on level ground. Such a skill would be very useful to have.

Well, this can't be done by using grounding methods in melee to my knowledge, but unfortunately, i'm unable to test stuff further at the moment, as I don't own a wii, and don't have ready access to the game. If you do find out why this occurs, please let me know though.