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The Physics of Attacks (DI included) updated: 1/09/09

infomon

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When a hitbox overlaps a hurtbox (even if it overlaps a hitbox), the attack connects. Character A & B both hit each other's hurboxen on the same frame (regardless of if the hitboxen connect), they'll trade.
Cool, thanks. That clears some of my ambiguity up :)

I'm not sure if you were implying this or not, but the hitboxen/ hurboxen are almost definately not rectangles. In melee they were capsules.
Yipes! Capsules, eh? As in, rectangles with rounded corners? That musta been trickier for them to implement :) but seems reasonable. Do you know if they were kept axis-aligned?

Hmm, I'm really dumb for having assumed that character hitboxes etc. would be rectangular.. obviously things like smartbombs are perfectly circular; so arbitrary polygons and rounded edges are all natural in Brawl's engine.

I don't know how aerial priority works yet. To my knowledge, no one does (save the developers).
I also don't have any info backing up nor refuting the yo-yo being a "projectile".
Fair enough. Well, apart from your corrections, I'll let the above stand as my current hypothesis of how Brawl works. I think aerial priority does not exist per se, and that aerials do not clank; although some aerials (and some attacks and specials) have projectile properties that allow them to clank against "pure" aerials. I'll await counterexamples.
 

SCOTU

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Yipes! Capsules, eh? As in, rectangles with rounded corners? That musta been trickier for them to implement :) but seems reasonable. Do you know if they were kept axis-aligned?

Hmm, I'm really dumb for having assumed that character hitboxes etc. would be rectangular.. obviously things like smartbombs are perfectly circular; so arbitrary polygons and rounded edges are all natural in Brawl's engine.
no. 3****ingDimensional Capsules. Melee's hitboxen and hurtboxen were all 3D. And you'll note that a sphere is just a capsule with a shaft length of 0. There were not kept axis aligned. They simply used methods for collision detection like in any other 3D game, rather than like rectangles like in traditional 2D fighters. I would have to assume that brawl kept this 3Dness, otherwise they'd've pretty much wasted ~$50K buying licensing to Havok physics (even though they probably did anyways since there's a million and 1/2 free physics packages that can easily do what brawl would need it to do).
 

infomon

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I also don't have any info backing up nor refuting the yo-yo being a "projectile".
The infamous "Yo-Yo Glitch" [YouTube demonstration] seems like good evidence to me. The hitbox can be permanently disjointed from Ness and he can continue his ordinary actions. Its hitbox remains active to anyone it hasn't touched. It survives after Ness dies.

And while most smashes afaik can be interrupted from a hitbox clash, the Yo-Yo seems to swing through its attack regardless; and indeed that's what can cause the glitch, if the offending hitbox is powerful enough. (and possibly some other conditions are satisfied to trigger it; I haven't experimented with this myself.)
 

infomon

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Right you are. As thesage had already pointed out.

I tried out everything I could think of, and there are only three situations where I've seen the meeting of an aerial and a ground attack (smash, tilt, etc.) cause a "clash bubble":
  • Ness' Yo-Yo (both Dsmash and Usmash)
  • ZSS's Fsmash
  • Olimar. Quite possibly everything he does involving Pikmin :o

These are also the only ground attacks I've seen that will not be interrupted by a clash. That is, they will follow through with the entire attack animation even when they clash; where other attacks would be interrupted and return the player quickly to their default (standing) state.

Note that with Olimar, all of his ground attacks can clash against anyone's aerials, and all of his aerials can clash against anyone's ground attacks. In both cases, it seems that Olimar will carry out the entire attack animation (no interruption), even though its hitbox will be ineffective against the opponent who caused it to clash.

Snake's up-smash (projectile in air) might be able to clash against aerials but I wasn't ever able to see a clash bubble amongst all the explosion mess :) I forgot to test the ground hit of his up-smash. Also I'll admit that I didn't exhaustively test Olimar's ground attacks, just I saw the trend from a few of them. :)

There might be other examples of aerials that, like Olimar's, will clash against ground attacks. I haven't swept through the roster on this yet. So if you find anything, please let me know :)

I have also intentionally left Specials out of all the above discussion. They may be categorically different. They can certainly, for the mostpart, clash against regular aerials; unlike ground attacks. I also don't know what the full deal is with Z-attacks, like Samus' Zair. Any thoughts?

Other discussions about this priority stuff has been happening [here] and [here]. Involving other long posts by yours truly >.> I've been trying to direct attention here so the work on this can happen in one area.

On that note, I hope I'm not annoying people with all this. I'm just trying to develop the understanding of how Brawl works. If this is all already established somewhere, and/or if you think I'm trolling with long-winded theories that are known somehow to be wrong or misguided, please let me know :)
 

thesage

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I think I've reflected snakes upsmash once with Ness' bat. Or was it Lucas' stick? I forgot.

About the u-smash thing, it only happened to me once. Ness' nair clanked with the yo yo as it was going up.
 

SCOTU

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snake's mortar is definitely reflectable. i do it all the time w/ fox's shine. It can also be hit causing either an aerial to beat it or lose to it (i don't think i've ever seen a trade, but idk what that would even be).

@infzy: you're not annoying anyone, I actually like discussing this sort of stuff, that's why i made this thread lol.
 

infomon

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Wow, Snake's up-smash is a very interesting move. For starters, it's kinda difficult to tell when it's been reflected; Ness' bat gives no visual confirmation that it's reflected the mortar, except that its horizontal momentum gets reversed if it had any.

But more importantly, the Mortar is the first evidence I've seen that the "elemental type" of an attack can have an influence on a priority mechanic. (Though I bet the Olimar and Pokemon Trainer ppl have a few things to teach me on this matter :)) scotu is right, in that some aerials can "beat it" (the mortar explodes, causing no damage to anyone), and some can pass right through it. In fact, there are ground attacks that can go right through it too. And as far as I can tell it has to do with the type of attack.

The Subspace Emissary's sticker mode demonstrates that every attack in the game has at least one of at least the following types: Arm, Leg, Weapon, Head, Body, Spin, Throwing, Tail, Magic, PK, Bite, Energy, Explosive, Slash, Electric, Flame, Aura, Freezing, Water, Pikmin, Grass, Darkness. I'm not sure about these: Direct Specials, Indirect Specials, and Battering. There might be others, those are just the ones I got from my incomplete sticker collection :-)

I don't know if a hitbox can have more than one type. If there's a better compendium of this stuff and its effects somewhere, please let me know.

In my experiments, Slash attacks pass right through Snake's Mortar. I'm talking about the rising and falling of the mortar, not the explosion it causes when it lands; that seems to be different. For example, Lucario's Aura Spheres will pass right through the mortar during its rise and fall, but they will clash against the explosion it makes when it hits the ground.

Anyway, back to Slash attacks..... consider Toon Link. His Dair, Uair, and Nair will all destroy the mortar, if spaced properly. But Toon Link's Fair and Bair will pass right through the mortar, and neither will be interrupted, leaving Toon Link vulnerable to the mortar. Note that the Dair and Uair both stick out the sword and keep it in a solid position, whereas the Fair and Bair do large swipes with the sword: Slashes. His Nair looks like a slash but I think it might have both a slash hitbox and a weapon hitbox, for some reason.

This trend about Slashes seems consistent across characters, though. MetaKnight, for example, cannot use any of his aerials to kill the mortar. This might be a very small part of why Snake makes a good counterpick for MK :) It also looks quite strange that Link's Nair "kick" (more like sticking-his-leg out) kills the mortar whereas his huge sword-swiping Fair misses it entirely.

As another example, Ness' Dair, Bair, and Nair all kill the mortar, but his Fair cannot. I couldn't get his Uair to hit the darn thing without it hitting Ness' hurtbox first, so I can't comment on that. Also of note: Ness' Yo-yo will not clash with the mortar! Even though his Yo-Yo seems to clash with a lot of regular aerials, which is unusual on its own. Although I should hold my tongue, since many of my previous aerial-priority statements may be invalidated if the effect of elemental types is strong. I suspect that the elemental type system will be at work quite often with Specials, but this is all speculation.

It's possible I'm just crazy, and I've misjudged what's going on here! Or that this is a well-known phenomenon already? Please let me know.

Edit:
About the u-smash thing, it only happened to me once. Ness' nair clanked with the yo yo as it was going up.
Don't worry, I've been able to reproduce this lots of times. All aerials I tested would cause the Yo-yo to clash; although I might have just been testing with one particular "type" of aerial that would do this, whereas other types might not? :S
 

ph00tbag

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Right you are. As thesage had already pointed out.

I tried out everything I could think of, and there are only three situations where I've seen the meeting of an aerial and a ground attack (smash, tilt, etc.) cause a "clash bubble":
  • Ness' Yo-Yo (both Dsmash and Usmash)
  • ZSS's Fsmash
  • Olimar. Quite possibly everything he does involving Pikmin :o
I think you mean Zamus' Dsmash. And for the record, that one is essentially a projectile that cannot be reflected. I think this puts it in the same realm as PK Flash, but I'd have to see if that can be reflected.
 

infomon

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No, I meant the Fsmash; the long whip that hits ahead of her and behind. I was able clash aerials against it, like G&W's Dair. I can't get that to work with the Dsmash (paralyzer), actually :o
 

Levitas

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PK flash can be reflected.

Try reflecting ZSS's dsmash with a teammate standing within its range and team attack off. That should clarify whether it's being reflected or not.
 

infomon

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Siiiigh, guys, I don't get it. As far as I can tell, even Metaknight's ground attacks don't clash with anything. His jab flurry, smashes, etc.... anything that's slashy. Other characters' slash attacks will; I've tested Pit, Marth, Ike, and Link. What's going on?? Why can't MK clash? Are there any other attacks that exhibit this behaviour?
 

Buuman

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Scotu, is it alright if I use your move decay formula in my formula? Credit will be given of course
 

Judge Judy

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This is a very informative thread but I have to ask, how does priority work for water and wind hitboxes?
 

SCOTU

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This is a very informative thread but I have to ask, how does priority work for water and wind hitboxes?
AFAIK, they're more like "forceboxen" than hitboxen, and just apply a momentum to whatever they hit guaranteed.

ppl should just have a link to this thread immediatly when they log in.

It would acctually help the spam.
It's called a stickey, and I agree.
 

infomon

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Yeah, I think they just cause other hitboxes to stay in delayed hitlag, because hitting the water counts as hitting something; ie. there's a clash.
 

Fatalzyntax

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Note: You can cancel hitstun by air dodging far quicker than you could normally jump out of the hitstun. This is most effective when trying to survive a strong hit because if you air dodge immediately, the air dodge will be done, and you can double jump sooner than you would normally have been able to double jump.
Actually... it's much better to do an aerial, given that you have one that is faster than your airdodge animation
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qAVsFk9Eug
 

Judge Judy

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Water hitboxes still cancel out some projectiles, and in numbers, multiple water projectiles can cancel out high priority projectiles; water hitboxes do have some form of priority.
 

Pazx

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Just read first + last pages...

So how does priority work if both hitboxes uh.... hit?

In training, I was mario and my brother was t.link. He did his dair right into my upsmash. I was knocked off the stage, and he was killed. So we both took knockback. How does that work?
 

infomon

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Just read first + last pages...

So how does priority work if both hitboxes uh.... hit?

In training, I was mario and my brother was t.link. He did his dair right into my upsmash. I was knocked off the stage, and he was killed. So we both took knockback. How does that work?
If a hitbox connects with your hurtbox, without hitting your shield or smthg, you take damage. So all you'd need is for each of your hitboxes to connect with each others' hurtboxes on the same frame, which happens often enough.
 

XienZo

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I'm not sure what you're asking.
He's asking what kind of hitbox it is with what kind of priority.

I think its a regular non-laser hitbox, since its the only one of MK's A attacks that you can clash with.
 

infomon

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I think you're right, except that MK's dash-attack also has regular priority. It's easy to forget about that one :)
 

XienZo

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Also, I think you should mention that most of MK's (sword) attacks and Lucario's (Aura only) attacks are Implied Priority while Olimar's pikmin attacks are Intrinsic Priority, regardless of whether they are grounded or aerial.

However, I'm not sure which Priority overrides when Olimar clashes with MK.

Also, I think the red, white, yellow, and blue pikmin are a different type of projectiles in that they have a "latch" hitbox instead of a damage one, and therefore cannot clash with other projectiles (without taking damage) unlike the purple one.
 

SCOTU

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6 components for a good move?

i'd rate them as

come out speed
put away speed
startup invincibility
range
highly disjointed
strong knockback or combos into itself/something strong.

that's for brawl. I'd rate it differently for Melee.
 

Darxmarth23

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6 components for a good move?

i'd rate them as

come out speed
put away speed
startup invincibility
range
highly disjointed
strong knockback or combos into itself/something strong.

that's for brawl. I'd rate it differently for Melee.
Mine are different.

Speed ( post lag, pre lag, and the duration of the move)
Priority
range (disjointed hitboxes, range of move, etc)
knockback
hitstun (brawl lol)
percent of damage

and you can add invincibility if the move has any.

Those are my six. I was gonna make a thread about them a few weeks ago, but then i started thinking that it would be too late for one since the game has already been evalutated till death.
 
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