The PokéLab: Pikachu Research Thread (QA frame data added: 1/26/11)

[Pikabunz]

PZ, you might be thinking of platform canceling and that only works with moving platforms.

 

[PZ]

PZ, you might be thinking of platform canceling and that only works with moving platforms.

Still been knew this its just when i learned how to actually use tilts on purpose i ignored this.

 

[Pikabunz]

@Kendall: I don't think that jump was low enough for it to be whatever you said. I know Pika's DJ goes much higher than that and it was no where near ending. Pika's head would be going through that platform if it wasn't for the stage canceling his DJ.

I really think this is Frigate related because that ledge has that weird lip on it similar to PS1's ledges.

 

[Syko_Lemming]

Looks like part of the ledge is permiable and he platform canceled it. Keep in mind Frigate does move. It flips.

Can you platform cancel the platforms on that stage?

 

[M15t3R E]

That's not what's happening in the vid though. His double jump was canceled on the stage at the start of it not the end.

I would expect this to be possible on any stage, however you need to begin the fair from just the perfect height to cancel it before Pikachu hits the ground. If there is an easy way to make sure this happens every time, do tell.

 

[KayLo!]

I'm home now, so I'll see if I can get it to work on Frigate + a neutral stage like BF/SV/FD.

I was just throwing out an idea based on what it looked like to me. Could be completely off-base!

EDIT: Nvm, can't get it to work for Pika, must be something different. Can only do it with Zelda.

 

[MXXD123]

I found this to be a useful technique earlier this week, when you jump out of your qac, you get additional landing lag, but if you perform a full hopped aerial, and time fair just right to get the "spark" technique to work, all you landing lag is gone, so you don't need to worry bout gettin fsmashed anymore. The triple jump glitch does not apply to this technique, so even on your next jump all your lag will be gone.

 

[Pikabunz]

Posting this here so I don't have to go look for it later.

Metaknight chain grab percents.

Start% - End%: Regrabs
15.75% - 15%: 0 regrabs
16.80% - 36%: 2 regrabs
17.85% - 45%: 3 regrabs
18.90% - 46%: 3 regrabs
19.95% - 39%: 2 regrabs
20.00% - 39%: 2 regrabs
21.00% - 31%: 1 regrab
22.05% - 32%: 1 regrab

 

[ElNoNombreHombre]

I found this to be a useful technique earlier this week, when you jump out of your qac, you get additional landing lag, but if you perform a full hopped aerial, and time fair just right to get the "spark" technique to work, all you landing lag is gone, so you don't need to worry bout gettin fsmashed anymore. The triple jump glitch does not apply to this technique, so even on your next jump all your lag will be gone.

Could you get a video or replay of this (which I'll be more than happy to record for you if you are unable to do it yourself)? I've tried to replicate this without success. I'm pretty sure I'm getting the auto-canceled fair timing right, though since I suck, there's still a good probability of me mucking up the timing.

 

[Pikabunz]

I can't get it to work either.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

yeah i think its another case of where something delays the glitch till later :/

 

[KayLo!]

We already figured out this didn't work a while ago. x.o Always nice to have things to try, though!

Prime, you should maybe skim back through the thread and make a definitive list of things that need to be tested (listed from most to least potential imo). I think we've lost track along the way.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Hmm...should we test what slopes pikachu can CG on and what characters? I know on Distant Planet Pikachu can CG almost every character...and it would be a nice bit of info to know.

 

[Syko_Lemming]

I found this to be a useful technique earlier this week, when you jump out of your qac, you get additional landing lag, but if you perform a full hopped aerial, and time fair just right to get the "spark" technique to work, all you landing lag is gone, so you don't need to worry bout gettin fsmashed anymore. The triple jump glitch does not apply to this technique, so even on your next jump all your lag will be gone.

I don't know what the triple jump glitch is, but I got this to work by accident a while ago.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AN3-0_iGwPo

It looks like a hard landing to me. There's no lag in later moves that I can tell, so I don't think it's delaying it.

Could have something to do with me landing really close the the edge of the platform

 

[Pikabunz]

Still looked like you had lag there.

 

[Syko_Lemming]

mmmk. I watched it a couple times again, and tested it, and you're right. I guess its just a soft landing with qa lag... :/ lame

 

[Stealth Raptor]

hey looks like that was me vs you

 

[Syko_Lemming]

It's either you or urban menace. ... I think it's you.

 

[Zolga Owns]

I'm going to be doing some serious research into Thunder soon. I'll be using ingame testing and PSA.
My doubles partner and I were exploring the Lightning Lockdown AT (very few people actually know how to do it apparently. It's a fun mixup in doubles) and we found something extremely weird. He pushed me off the stage into the thunderbolt after powersheilding it BUT I didn't get T2 until I tried to move around. The lightning bolt disappeared but I still got to T2. O.o The oddest part was that I was under the stage lip of FD.
Also it seems that depending on the timing of the partner he can PS the thunder and my lag from using Thunder gets canceled. In the original video the Pikachu still had Thunder lag.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

needs vids nao, sounds sexy

 

[Legendary Pikachu]

I'm going to be doing some serious research into Thunder soon. I'll be using ingame testing and PSA.
My doubles partner and I were exploring the Lightning Lockdown AT (very few people actually know how to do it apparently. It's a fun mixup in doubles) and we found something extremely weird. He pushed me off the stage into the thunderbolt after powersheilding it BUT I didn't get T2 until I tried to move around. The lightning bolt disappeared but I still got to T2. O.o The oddest part was that I was under the stage lip of FD.
Also it seems that depending on the timing of the partner he can PS the thunder and my lag from using Thunder gets canceled. In the original video the Pikachu still had Thunder lag.

Wow. I'm surprised to see someone else (other than me) seriously trying Lightning Lockdown. More doubles shenanigans go!

I am LDPK, and I approve this message.

 

[Zolga Owns]

needs vids nao, sounds sexy

I have a replay of us doing it at least twice amid our many fails.
It's 8 minutes long lol, infinite replay <3
I'll get a friend of mine to record it. Though we were gonna wait till we could at least make the weird effect happen more than once in awhile.

Wow. I'm surprised to see someone else (other than me) seriously trying Lightning Lockdown. More doubles shenanigans go!

I am LDPK, and I approve this message.

We are going to start testing on every competitive stage. I'm also looking into QAC mechanics and how to influenced Thunder's odd properties like a reverse effect much like Pit's sheild. I did that to a friend of mine while he was using Diddy's up B.

 

[KayLo!]

Definitely wanna see vids of the thunder thing.

 

[Legendary Pikachu]

*Now I feel like I have purpose... ^_^*

If you can suggest anything, I'll see if my brother and I can help out recreating the trick. It CANT be harder than trying to do CROSS THUNDERS on call un-assisted. Plus, we've probably had the most experience using L. Lockdown.

 

[KayLo!]

LDPK, can you record vids or only do replays & get other people to record them?

I've wanted to get mini video guides for separate ATs for a while now, so if you could record ones for Cross Thunder and Lightning Lockdown, that'd be amazing.

 

[Legendary Pikachu]

LDPK, can you record vids or only do replays & get other people to record them?

I've wanted to get mini video guides for separate ATs for a while now, so if you could record ones for Cross Thunder and Lightning Lockdown, that'd be amazing.

I can record vids. http://www.youtube.com/shadowcase. You can find our stuff here.

I have already made the first video for lightning lockdown (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=goyou4A6k2s) and I have one ancient video for cross thunder (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCZJeaCdoFM ), but those are already in the volt tackle video thread.

Do you want me to re-edit them into something more "tutorial"-like?

I can do that for L. Lockdown, but for cross thunder, that may be hard cuz (although I've asked prime to help me check) I've never REALLY found out how to do it. I know you have to jump, thunder, and DI a certain way (being next to the ledge helps) but I still get 10% cross, 90% misses at best.

 

[KayLo!]

A more tutorial-type one for Lockdown would be fantastic whenever you get the chance. Doesn't have to be anytime soon obviously, but whenever you have the time.

 

[MXXD123]

I checked the replay, yeah all my lag was gone. I tried to recreate it, and no luck . Meh I guess it was a lucky one time thing. :/

 

[Pikabunz]

I think we need to do some research on the QAL. I noticed that different variations of the QAL don't work on all characters. For example, the single QAL (canceling after 1st QA) will work on Bowser, but the double QAL (canceling after the 2nd QA) will not. When doing the double QAL on Bowser, the first QA will hit, but as you do the second QA you will pass through Bowser without hitting him thus ending the lock. I just want us to make a list of characters that the QAL will not work on.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

The reason that happens is because you are going under him. Bowser bounces pretty high when he gets hit with a locking move, so if you do the 2nd one you will go under him. That's the only problem. ZSS would be the exact opposite, she stays on the ground forever.

What I noticed sometimes with jab lock is that it'll lock the first few times, but after that itll be more like a melee jab lock (Thunder's combo). Is there a reason for this? Is it too diminished?

 

[Syko_Lemming]

By melee jab lock do you mean the opponent stands up too fast? Cause I get that when I jab too soon after QAL'ing them.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

yeah, it all depends on the amount of knockback. too little forces a getup, too much knocks them away, just right will lock them. jab doesnt really ever fit into the too high category, but until they are above like 50-60, you may lock them the first hit or two, but then the ones after that will be too low. the goal is to start the jabs high enough that by the time it gets staled its still in that middle category. dont know why QAL works like it does though

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

It has a really low knockback and a very small growth.

But yeah...we should get jab lock %s that are correct, considering stale moves. My list was just the first one..since I thought when the first one hits the degeneration will match the % and it would work forever...ugh...

 

[Luxor]

-*more like asking a favor than something practical to research* I posted WAY back long ago about pika doing a solo cross thunder offstage edgeguard. It still to this day remains pretty hard to do for me. Even if the move is useless in practicality, could some of you testers send me the numbers, stats, frames, or results of exactly how the move does or does not work--of course if any of you are have time and are willing to test/research. I'll be HAPPY to provide the results of my testings so far to you guys if it saves any trouble.

I was playing around with this in frame advance. It took a long time just to get it once, and it didn't get much easier after that. I managed to get a frame map with the "ideal" inputs I found.

format- frame#:millisecond timer ___ input/event
00:00 input DJ + halfway DI
01:98 DJ occurs
O6:90 input Thunder
07:88 Thunder animation begins
?? If you're lucky, Cross Thunder

But even if you do all that in frame advance, meaning absolutely frame perfect, it still only works 50% of the time at most. The "halfway DI" I mentioned in the frame map means you have to hold the stick about halfway between its neutral position and the wall for exactly one frame, or you'll overshoot and ruin everything. However, it's super sensitive and being just a bit off ruins it. Also, the Thunder path itself is random (near 100% sure of this), so even if you manage to get the control stick in just the right spot you'll fail half the time anyway.

And that's just the frame perfect input problems. To do it for real, you would need to DJ, hold down but not quite straight down so that over a few frames the horizontal input combined over a few frames equals that of holding halfway for one frame. Then you'd have to roll the stick to straight down and Thunder (keep the stick how it was and you'll overshoot). Then you get to watch as your mighty Thunderbolt goes right past you.

Single Pika Cross Thunder.
Don't try this at home.
Seriously.

 

[Pikabunz]

QAL doesn't really work on Marth. =/

It will only work if you do these short single QA's, which is really hard to do.

 

[KayLo!]

Didn't you and Alby say to me in the chat, "just because it's hard to do doesn't mean it doesn't work"?

 

[Stealth Raptor]

burrrrrrrrrrrrrrned

i should really practice QAL, a sometimes spot a chance to do it to punish a landing but i havent done anything about it

 

[Syko_Lemming]

I find there are a lot more opportunities to start QAL's then most people realize. Anytime you Dthrow and you predict an airdodge, anytime you cross behind someone and they let their sheild down, anytime they have landing lag for any reason, those are all times you can start it.

Try approaching people backwards, lol. See what they do.

 

[Pikabunz]

Didn't you and Alby say to me in the chat, "just because it's hard to do doesn't mean it doesn't work"?

Yeah, but you also have to factor that Marth can SDI in any direction, easily messing up the QAL. Marth isn't just gonna stay still for you. You have to guess where he's gonna go, so it's not guaranteed. If it's not guaranteed then it doesn't really work to me. Like the uair > footstool chain, some consider it a 0-death, but your opponent can just di during the footstool ending the chain if you don't predict where they're gonna go. What I said that did work was the 0-death on Fox, because Fox can't do anything to avoid it. The only factor on this 0-death is the player themselves performing it. It doesn't require any reading or predicting. If you fail to do it, then it's your own fault.



QAL'ing in general doesn't work well on anyone, if the opponent is good. You'll probably get like 10% at most before they get out. I usually just QA once then charge an fsmash.

 

[The Truth!]

Wait now, I dont agree with that. I may have been saying this a lot lately but thats just laziness by most of us. In melee there were a ton of guaranteed CGs and combos that if you did not follow their DI they would not continue. Instead of saying they werent guaranteed, people learned to read and adapt combos to a persons DI. The options they have are still very limited.

Just because your opponent has a say in how you do it and making it more difficult doesnt mean its not guaranteed or not possible. If your opponent is good at making it difficutl that just means you have to get better at doing it.

Also the single QA's are much easier imo, its very rhythmetic