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The SBR official stance on Metaknight.

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Sinz

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Actually, originally the senate was constructed to be chosen by the state governments, and not by popular vote. This way they wouldn’t have to have the worry of re-election on their minds in making decisions, in an attempt to make them untouchable and to try to keep them objective. This was to protect the upper level of the social pyramid. This way the tyrranny of the majority was kept in check. However this was changed in 1913.

The only problem with this and the SBR is that there is no house of representatives. But, in this vote they gave us one. The house was supposed to represent the people, but its voting power wasn’t as strong as the senates.

The SBR is doing just fine.
 

M@v

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I NEVER saw this coming O_o. Anyway, meh. I didnt really care either way what happened. Guess I'll still second mk. Sorry Peach :(
 

Genome Squirrel

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are you ever going to make the sbr meta discussion readable by the public?
i'm just curious what points were made by high level players.
 

Kewkky

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are you ever going to make the sbr meta discussion readable by the public?
i'm just curious what points were made by high level players.
I'd like this to happen, too. Whichever was the biggest discussion (and the most recent), make it public without altering any posts, so we can see what was their arguments. I'd much rather read from the people who know, than from the people who do and don't.

The SBR is doing just fine.
I agree. They even used the same voting system as has been used for a number of situations, a number of times before. The fact that we lost fair and square doesn't mean that they cheated in any way, it just means that the majority of the votes that counted voted towards the health of the community AS A GAME WITH NO BANNED CHARACTERS because MetaKnight is beatable, and has supporting evidence to back it up.

Pro-ban side was more about speculation and warning of things to come, and they made sense to me, so I went from anti-ban to pro-ban.
 

Amazing Ampharos

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Well, I guess the next time we have a close presidential race, we should just keep the old president in office until the people come to a significant enough majority to justify going through the bother of the transfer of power...

Look, 55% isn't much, but it's still a majority, and it's been consistent the whole time. The only reason Meta isn't banned right now is because the SBR is made up of self-appointed, self-elected individuals. They don't reflect the COMMUNITY at all, just the top players, and as many people have pointed out, apparently only the opinions of the top players matter in this community. The SBR is a good idea, but it isn't set up to take the community into account at all, and that's the flaw, evident in how Meta won this last decision.

The SBR held their private poll before the public one. They decided before hand the math for how the public poll would effect the private poll. In order for the community poll to have made ANY difference in the SBR's decision, the public pro-ban % needed to be 66%, a minimum difference of 11% from ALL previous polls. There was NO WAY anyone in there thought that would actually happen; they KNEW that Meta wouldn't be banned. There was no way for them NOT to; the math wasn't in the pro-ban's favor. This setup is JUST LIKE the Electoral College in politics: set up expressly so that popular opinion has less of an effect on the outcome.

Basically: Meta got saved by a bunch of elite individuals that really only think that their top-level of play matters, while forgetting that all of the people Meta actually screws on a daily basis... pay for their plane tickets, hotel rooms, and pot money. I can't agree with that... and that's why I'm happy that Xyro's keeping Meta banned here in Texas.
This is more analogous to passing a constitutional amendment than selecting a president. We aren't deciding on a person to be in charge; we're deciding on a proposition to a fundamental change in the rules. That requires a 2/3 supermajority, as well it should.

The electoral college isn't designed like that at all by the way. The purpose of the electoral college is twofold. The first purpose is to make small states arbitrarily more significant than they would otherwise be. The second purpose is to guarantee a conclusion of presidential elections by a certain date. The way it sometimes causes the election winner and the popular vote winner to be different is a shame really, but it's not a corrupt process or a process designed to produce rigged outcomes, as anyone with a cursory knowledge of American history, specifically early American history when this system was designed, could easily tell you. In fact, when this happens, it is actually just fulfilling the first purpose most of the time. And, before you go and claim the first purpose is inherently bad, do consider that the United States is in many ways a collection of states and not a single unit (basic federalism at work). Small states are effectively disenfranchised in a raw popular system; their meager populations are just swamped by the populations of the large states. If the system does not favor them arbitrarily to some degree (like we do with the Senate and the electoral college), they have little incentive to be a part of the country, especially in the modern world where they are extremely unlikely to be militarily attacked regardless. Also, the winner take all system of the electoral college encourages campaigning in only a few states which seems bad at first, but consider how much less expensive that makes elections. Already elections are ridiculously swayed by the amount of money politicians can raise (amounts that are truly obscene and totally out of reach of normal people or even any but the most powerful of politicians or the richest of the rich), and it's an obvious waste of resources to spend them on deciding on leadership anyway. A system that keeps this spending to a minimum is one I can only view as a positive.

Lastly, you are basically advocating mob rule where the majority rules all as far as I can tell. This is an extremely bad idea since the majority loves to take rights from unpopular minorities, be swayed by propaganda, and generally make stupid, impulsive decisions (notice how radically opinion polls on political issues can shift). Of course we don't want rule by "enlightened" elites who are just as likely interested in maintaining their own power as ensuring the best for everyone, but we definitely do need leadership isolated to some extent from public opinion. In government the solution is called a "republic" or "representative democracy". Smashboards has a SBR which, while there are many issues with it we could doubtless complain (and are not worth getting into here), isn't fundamentally a terrible concept and either way is definitely better than total regional disconnect on rulesets (the "anarchy" solution, used by most fighting games with less complex rules situations) or by popular whim dictating policy. Do consider that smashboards users as a whole are basically an elite compared to smash players as a whole; there's a reason we don't have free for alls with items on the Temple at our tournaments despite that being the most popular way to play.

Also, honestly, Meta Knight being banned by the SBR would have caused such a ridiculous amount of damage to the community. I'm sure it would satisfy many of you Texas people (though not all of you seeing as there are clearly Texans who voted against the ban), but consider that many tournaments in regions such as Atlantic North and the Midwest would simply refuse to adapt such a ban. This direction leaves some of you guys upset no doubt, but the status quo of the Meta Knight banned tournaments being an obscure minority with the ability to just blanket claim that those tournaments don't matter is sustainable. The political situation would become more or less hopeless to manage with Meta Knight banned by the SBR...

Also, I'm extremely doubtful that non-top players are hurt by Meta Knight being allowed. If he destroys mid-level play, then all the Meta Knights in my region must really suck because that doesn't happen here at all (they don't suck, by the way). There's just no evidence for this claim.
 

fkacyan

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Good.

Now maybe the community can move on and get some useful debate and discussion going, like in the STAGE DISCUSSION FORUM, not that I feel that we need to come to a more concrete consensus about many stages or anything.
 

Hylian

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Fun Fact: Texas only has 1 notable MK player and that is Dojo. He still places top 3 at MK banned tournaments with characters he hardly plays.

The majority of texas is also anti-ban. I believe only 1 or 2 out of our 15 ranked players are pro ban.

People associate texas wanting mk banned..but really it's just a few people.
 

Jack Kieser

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First of all, the electoral college is TOTALLY designed to disenfranchise the popular vote; that was one of it's uses, along with what you stated. The reason, of course, was that in the origin years of the Union, the populous couldn't be trusted with the election of a leader: too many people were un- or misinformed due to a lack of easily obtainable information, and the Founding Fathers knew that.

Secondly, mob rule is rarely a good thing. I certainly don't think that mob rule is the way to go in ANY system, and a democracy is no different (unless the mob is a easily manageable number, in which case it really isn't a mob). I just don't like how little the populous really matters here. Again, the "vote" we all participated in was rigged from the start: we were participating in an exercise that was known from the beginning not to matter (or at least, that the margin of chance that it WOULD matter was slim-to-none). Illusion of choice is no choice at all.

BTW, even though I'm for a Meta ban, I'm in no was disillusioned enough to think that his non-banning will kill the community or anything. I realize it can sound like that, but the implications of HOW the decision was reached just doesn't sit well with me. Personally, I rarely run into the problem: I run tournaments, not play in them (and for good reason, too). I can't deny, though, that he wrecks the competitive nature of the game at low- and mid-levels of play; as a TO, it's REALLY HARD to keep the game going and keep player morale up when MK is knocking everyone out. I'm not using THAT as a reason for a ban, because I really think a ban should be based on game data... but I really think that losing MK doesn't hurt the top-level of play as much as keeping him can hurt the lower levels of play. Politics is a cop-out argument; the only reason MK isn't banned here is because our TO's have balls, and I don't think (from what I've heard and read) that the TO's in most other states have the balls to complain about a Meta ban to the point to where they'd cause "unrest in the community" or something. They'd roll over and do what the SBR ruleset says just like they always do.
 

Hylian

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First of all, the electoral college is TOTALLY designed to disenfranchise the popular vote; that was one of it's uses, along with what you stated. The reason, of course, was that in the origin years of the Union, the populous couldn't be trusted with the election of a leader: too many people were un- or misinformed due to a lack of easily obtainable information, and the Founding Fathers knew that.

Secondly, mob rule is rarely a good thing. I certainly don't think that mob rule is the way to go in ANY system, and a democracy is no different (unless the mob is a easily manageable number, in which case it really isn't a mob). I just don't like how little the populous really matters here. Again, the "vote" we all participated in was rigged from the start: we were participating in an exercise that was known from the beginning not to matter (or at least, that the margin of chance that it WOULD matter was slim-to-none). Illusion of choice is no choice at all.

BTW, even though I'm for a Meta ban, I'm in no was disillusioned enough to think that his non-banning will kill the community or anything. I realize it can sound like that, but the implications of HOW the decision was reached just doesn't sit well with me. Personally, I rarely run into the problem: I run tournaments, not play in them (and for good reason, too). I can't deny, though, that he wrecks the competitive nature of the game at low- and mid-levels of play; as a TO, it's REALLY HARD to keep the game going and keep player morale up when MK is knocking everyone out. I'm not using THAT as a reason for a ban, because I really think a ban should be based on game data... but I really think that losing MK doesn't hurt the top-level of play as much as keeping him can hurt the lower levels of play. Politics is a cop-out argument; the only reason MK isn't banned here is because our TO's have balls, and I don't think (from what I've heard and read) that the TO's in most other states have the balls to complain about a Meta ban to the point to where they'd cause "unrest in the community" or something. They'd roll over and do what the SBR ruleset says just like they always do.
What are you speaking from? It can't be experience, because Texas only has 1 good MK player and he happens to be the best in the state. All the other MK's here get wrecked.

Think about if we had banned him. Would you be posting all of this even though our process was the same?
 

Suspect

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Pax and infinity's mk do not get *****.

now i dont know if infinity still plays or not so...>_>
 

Dojo

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Whatever Hylian, I'm not even good.

Also, Sean doesn't play MK anymore. And Pax doesn't do very well from my memory...
 

Zankoku

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How can you be sexy and not good at the same time? It is impossible.
 

Hylian

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Pax and infinity's mk do not get *****.

now i dont know if infinity still plays or not so...>_>
Who has Pax beaten..ever? Infinity does better with kirby/wario then he does with MK now. He tried playing MK against Kprime at FS6 I think it was and lost and got 33rd. The only MK you see touching money in texas is Dojo, and he gets money even without MK, as he proved at Hobo17.

Whatever Hylian, I'm not even good.
People don't know how much you suck! It's so stupid how you win by relying on MK. :laugh:
 

fkacyan

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They'd roll over and do what the SBR ruleset says just like they always do.
So, like, does NJ not exist or something?

I don't think we've gone along with a fair amount of what the SBR has dictated (Stage lists in particular) for a long time. I think the same goes for many other micro-communities.

The SBR isn't viewed with as much respect as you seem to think it's garnered.
 

Kinzer

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People associate texas wanting mk banned..but really it's just a few people.
I think people are mistaking the entire state of TX for Xyro.

...Unless you know of any other TO/tourneys in a scheduled basis that have MK banned as a standard?
 

Jack Kieser

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What are you speaking from? It can't be experience, because Texas only has 1 good MK player and he happens to be the best in the state. All the other MK's here get wrecked.

Think about if we had banned him. Would you be posting all of this even though our process was the same?
All the other MK's in low- and mid-level play? Sure, they get wrecked by the end of the bracket, but they're also the ones doing all the damage; 2 or 3 high-level MKs don't knock out a majority of a bracket. Hell, 2-3 high-level players period can't do that. As a TO, high-level play doesn't concern me in this argument because high-level play doesn't pay for my venue or my supplies or anything else we need to run a tournament. High-level play is JUST FINE without MK; there are plenty of characters that can play at high levels. Lower levels, however, are damaged by MK's existence, no matter the capacity, even if it's just morale by this point.

And you're right, I probably wouldn't be posting all of this, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't be thinking it. Honestly, the MK ban discussion is the ONLY TIME anything of this scale is ever going to come up; if we HAD banned him, I wouldn't NEED to post anything unless something else caused a problem of this scale.
 

'V'

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I don't think we've gone along with a fair amount of what the SBR has dictated (Stage lists in particular) for a long time. I think the same goes for many other micro-communities.
Louisiana's always followed the SBR rulesets with the exception of ONE Meta-banned tourney which ended up with Lee Martin winning anyway, and he was our only Meta Knight at the time.

I plan on changing that soon though if I ever run a Brawl tourney.
 

Sinz

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I think people are mistaking the entire state of TX for Xyro.

...Unless you know of any other TO/tourneys in a scheduled basis that have MK banned as a standard?
Every tournament in New Mexico
 

AlphaZealot

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Wow...

Smash and politics...

I do admit it is an interesting dynamic in this community that most (or nearly all) other gaming communities lack. However, I'd like to point out that the rules and games played in, lets say MLG, are decided by a very small number of people (we are talking less then 10, probably less than 5). Or, lets say you want to get into a traditional fighting game: the game you choose and the rules you play are basically whatever EVO decides to have for that year. There are a couple independent scenes aside from this (Soul Caliber, Tekken and Guilty Gear are probably the largest) but for the most part it holds true.

Also I never bought the low-mid level play arguments. A low level Diddy should beat a low level MK. As should a mid level Diddy. MK doesn't get the advantage until high/top level, and even then its slight.

Dang it, this is looking like a debate. lol.

The SBR is, like all things in Smash since this community started, a continually refined and evolving organization/institution/room/whatever.

Nothing the SBR says though has any real merit unless the TO's choose to follow what is "recommended". Recommended. Not dictated.
 

Hylian

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All the other MK's in low- and mid-level play? Sure, they get wrecked by the end of the bracket, but they're also the ones doing all the damage; 2 or 3 high-level MKs don't knock out a majority of a bracket. Hell, 2-3 high-level players period can't do that. As a TO, high-level play doesn't concern me in this argument because high-level play doesn't pay for my venue or my supplies or anything else we need to run a tournament.

And you're right, I probably wouldn't be posting all of this, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't be thinking it. Honestly, the MK ban discussion is the ONLY TIME anything of this scale is ever going to come up; if we HAD banned him, I wouldn't NEED to post anything unless something else caused a problem of this scale.
If you are only going to post about how things were done then you shouldn't be so biased. You can't expect people to listen when your reasonings are purely selfish. You are really exaggerating things or just straight up lying. There are not many MK players here at all. Dojo is the only one that places. At Fs6 there was only 1 MK in the top like 25, you had to go to 33rd place to find infinitys MK, it's not MK knocking everyone out it's a variety of characters and MK is not making people quit here.

In fact at Hobo18 LeeMartin witched to anti-ban because he said the game was to "gay" when MK was banned. Probably because everyone here starts playing Diddy.

You have no evidence to back up your claims, and baseless claims will get you nowhere in a debate.
 

Jski

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Well still as things stand MK the main one to beat and to be viable you cant be bad vs MK. May be if MK had a really bad mach up or some one had an indefinite on him it would be better. But sadly there is nothing like that in this game. What this may end up doing is get new ppl in to the game and make them think they are good but once they come to a real game they will lose. Its a great way to keep the money flowing to these torments i guess.
 

Spelt

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i love how this thread has been turned into an mk based debate.
 

fkacyan

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Well still as things stand MK the main one to beat and to be viable you cant be bad vs MK. May be if MK had a really bad mach up or some one had an indefinite on him it would be better. But sadly there is nothing like that in this game. What this may end up doing is get new ppl in to the game and make them think they are good but once they come to a real game they will lose. Its a great way to keep the money flowing to these torments i guess.
Look at any other competitive fighter and there is always a character, or a small subset, yours has to be able to beat to be viable. Always.
 

Kewkky

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Well still as things stand MK the main one to beat and to be viable you cant be bad vs MK. May be if MK had a really bad mach up or some one had an indefinite on him it would be better. But sadly there is nothing like that in this game. What this may end up doing is get new ppl in to the game and make them think they are good but once they come to a real game they will lose. Its a great way to keep the money flowing to these torments i guess.
Seeing as you main ZSS...

... She has a grab-release infinite on MK. In stages like Delfino, if you manage to grab MK while you're on a walk-off part of the stage, it's a stock in your favor unless the MK is like at 130-140% (which he shouldn't be against ZSS).
 

shlike

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Who has Pax beaten..ever? Infinity does better with kirby/wario then he does with MK now. He tried playing MK against Kprime at FS6 I think it was and lost and got 33rd. The only MK you see touching money in texas is Dojo, and he gets money even without MK, as he proved at Hobo17.



People don't know how much you suck! It's so stupid how you win by relying on MK. :laugh:
Pax beat RoyR and Stiltz at battle of the border
 

Reizilla

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If you are only going to post about how things were done then you shouldn't be so biased. You can't expect people to listen when your reasonings are purely selfish. You are really exaggerating things or just straight up lying. There are not many MK players here at all. Dojo is the only one that places. At Fs6 there was only 1 MK in the top like 25, you had to go to 33rd place to find infinitys MK, it's not MK knocking everyone out it's a variety of characters and MK is not making people quit here.

In fact at Hobo18 LeeMartin witched to anti-ban because he said the game was to "gay" when MK was banned. Probably because everyone here starts playing Diddy.

You have no evidence to back up your claims, and baseless claims will get you nowhere in a debate.
Pax got 9th at FS6 and usually places around that area. Just pointing that out to you and whoever said he get's completely wrecked.
 

Jski

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Seeing as you main ZSS...

... She has a grab-release infinite on MK. In stages like Delfino, if you manage to grab MK while you're on a walk-off part of the stage, it's a stock in your favor unless the MK is like at 130-140% (which he shouldn't be against ZSS).
So why zss still so low on the tear list!? Any way i do not play competed i was just thinking more on the lines that MK is a diversity killer. The more ppl who play him the less we will see of ever one else. Also with online play MK is dam near imposable to beat from what i seen may be there should be a look at the idea of offline and online with this debate.
 

Broly

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vash just beat pax w/ wario. i hate to say it, but mk isnt ban worthy anymore. sure pax isnt a great mk like dojo, but he wrecks the valley w/ him. i dont like it that mk dominates everyone, has a advantage on everyone imo, and has so many utiities that ranks him broken. but i guess the game still needs to evolve.

EVERYONE THANK ALLY 4 THIS, HE SAVED MKS ***
 

Sinz

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So why zss still so low on the tear list!? Any way i do not play competed i was just thinking more on the lines that MK is a diversity killer. The more ppl who play him the less we will see of ever one else. Also with online play MK is dam near imposable to beat from what i seen may be there should be a look at the idea of offline and online with this debate.
Anyone else want to join me in a big solid. No.?
 

Teh Brettster

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I'm not sure if people realize that the debate will never go away.

"It's done! It's done!"

This poll is done, yeah.
But people are still going to be arguing all over the place.

Plus, a lot of people will bring up that half the SBR uses MK either as a main or safe counter. Too many people are going to claim that this vote was biased.

=\

It really never will end.
 

'V'

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So why zss still so low on the tear list!? Any way i do not play competed i was just thinking more on the lines that MK is a diversity killer. The more ppl who play him the less we will see of ever one else. Also with online play MK is dam near imposable to beat from what i seen may be there should be a look at the idea of offline and online with this debate.
Surprisingly enough, you see quite a lot of Snakes online.
 

fkacyan

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So why zss still so low on the tear list!? Any way i do not play competed i was just thinking more on the lines that MK is a diversity killer. The more ppl who play him the less we will see of ever one else. Also with online play MK is dam near imposable to beat from what i seen may be there should be a look at the idea of offline and online with this debate.

Get off of my main.

Also, I think none of the AiB Ladder winners have been MKs. Hell, I think the top few places haven't been MKs.
 
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