The Smash Lab: What is it?

[Niko_K]

Wasn't it stated back when staling was first looked into that grab range also becomes stale? This would mean that the speed of DDD's grab nor the knockback of the character being grabbed is altered.

How come this only applies to Mario, Luigi, and Samus? I'm guessing their body structures. It seems that where DDD grabs these characters, is the farthest point possible.

So maybe the game registers grab range as a completely different variable....

If this is true, the stale que ends up looking like this.

(1 is just a random variable)

1.dthrow dmg -1
2.grab range -1
3.dthrow dmg -1
4.grab range - 1
5.dthrow dmg - 1
6.grab range - 1
7.dthrow dmg -1
8.grab range -1
9.dthrow dmg -1
10.grab range -1

So when you go for this 6th grab, you're grab range will be too short to reach thus breaking the chain.

Though if we add in two jabs, you can never reach a point where your grab has its range staled this far.

1 dthrow
2 jab
3 jab
4 grab range
5 dthrow
6 jab
7 jab
8 grab range
9 dthrow
10 jab

1 jab
2 grab range
3 dthrow

If you continue this pattern it's quite obvious that it is impossible for 5 grabs to be in the stale que.

Though I could be completely wrong, since it seems to change the angle the character is throw at too. Which would mean the angle a character is sent at becomes lower and lower as it stales?

 

[Ryuker]

About the angle I gues that is determined by a calculation of the knockback of the move, damage and the place it occupy's in the list of attacks used and the class of the character . ( got now idea how they did that I'm still a n00b at programming ) But it somehow results in a lower y increase on it's movement on the Y axis. Maybe they flip or something.

It seems to me that the knockback on this throw actually increases based on the amount of times it is done consecutively. That it works on only a few is determined by the hitbox areas. The grab and body hitboxes simply don't overlap after 5 throws ( cause the char is send too far).

@samurai panda yeah I think this would apply to all chars in someway then. Otherwise it could be that they tried to atleast prevent something as obvious as this during development.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

No Panda. I'll explain it again.

As you know, the dthrow has a set knockback. It will always send the opponent at the same spot (therefore making any CG completely inescapable). The only thing that changes when the dthrow is stale is the angle of the thrown character. It will be lower and thus making a buffered regrab impossible (because the opponent falls to low ). This does indeed disallow the infinite CG, unless Dedede jabs at least once. The CG however will be unaffected, since the angle doesn't matter but only the distance the opponent is knocked back.

In a nutshell: The angle affects the infinite, the knockback the CG. The knockback is unaffected by staleness since it's set. The angle however will still slightly change.

 

[Adapt]

the overall knockback is the same, just the angle at which it sends you seems to change over time

I have to concede the point. After getting home and testing, I found my theory is not valid.

DDD's dthrow has no knockback growth rate, and the knockback is unaffected by stale move degeneration. It's a constant 2447 MPH for mario no matter how many times I throw bowser before hand. (the game records the highest knockback and bowser gets knocked back less than mario)
I wish I had FadedImage's stale moves data...

There definitely is a change in knockback angle as the move becomes stale. I am now looking into whether there is a change in knockback angle for all stale moves.

 

[Woozle]

What about theory and statistics involving the community?

Or are those too theoretical?

I guess my question is this a chemistry lab or an economics lab?

 

[Collective of Bears]

Does this only affect D3 or all characters?

I'll do some experimenting with Falco tonight to see if the principle is the same.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I'll do some experimenting with Falco tonight to see if the principle is the same.

No it's not. Falco's dthrow doesn't have set knockback

 

[Blad01]

I would just say that this is a very good idea. ^^

Every point is good (lol at the name "DLX Hit Cancel" ).

 

[kr3wman]

I would just say that this is a very good idea. ^^

Every point is good (lol at the name "DLX Hit Cancel" ).

Best english from a french from france player I've ever seen.

You deserve a cake for that.

 

[Ryuker]

No it's not. Falco's dthrow doesn't have set knockback

What makes you so sure this move does then? It could be that it has a increase in knockback but before 5 throws the chars simple don't travell far enough.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

What makes you so sure this move does then? It could be that it has a increase in knockback but before 5 throws the chars simple don't travell far enough.

D3s CG only works because of the set knockback. But Falco's depends on % and thus has not set knockback

 

[kr3wman]

What makes you so sure this move does then? It could be that it has a increase in knockback but before 5 throws the chars simple don't travell far enough.

Dedede's D-throw has a set knockback because even at 300% it won't kill.

durrrrh.

 

[Mmac]

I can conform that Dthrow has set distance on all characters. I was focusing on Distance moreso than Staling because Everyone was doing it, and I was thinking that I can get a better answer about how Dedede's Dthrow works by figuring out the distance and mechanics of the Dthrow. Here's what I got testing with Stage Buider Blocks for distance, and double checking on Final Destination just incase they didn't get caught by the blocks.

Bowser:
- 1/2 Block on all stales

DK:
- 3/4 Block on all stales

Mario:
1st 2 Stales: 1 1/4 Blocks
Rest: 1 1/8 Blocks

Luigi:
1st Stale: 1 1/2 Blocks
Rest: 1 3/8 Blocks

Samus:
First Stale: 1 1/8 Blocks
Rest: 1 Block exact

The distance is where they landed on the Dthrow, not how much they slided due the traction and angle of the launch. I can confirm that the only thing that gets staled from the Dthrow, is the launch angle. After the first or second throw, it becomes practically 0 degrees. Because the Knockback is set, it never changes no matter how much it's stalled. Don't be confused by how the more staled the throw is, the less distance they are sent back, because that's also due to the launch angle. They just land quicker

Anyways, because the knockback is set, the speed never changes. To explain this best, Take a piece of paper and draw a 10 CM line about 20 Degrees upwards. This represents The Dthrow at it's first few stales. Now draw a Line, Same Distance, 0 Degrees (Completely Flat) Even if you don't draw it out, you can probably see in your mind that the Line at 0 Degrees spends less time in the Grab Range than the one at 20 Degrees. This is why Dedede can't regrab after the stale, because they just shoot out too fast out of the grab reach from the set knockback. That's pretty much there is too it. It's all about the angle.

I don't know if it will effect the other Chaingrabs, but I agree that those should require some testing also. I swear Yoshi can break out after the 3rd or 4th throw.

Edit: I like the 9 Stale Theory, but my research does not follow it through (Unless I'm wrong >_>). However what I am thinking is, Could the Grab ITSELF Registered as a "Staled Attack"?

 

[Adapt]

Yep, It does have set knockback, I tested it with every character.

Bowser and DK have the least knockback and they have large hurtboxes, which is why they are affected by the standing infinite.

I'm still working on Mario/Samus/Luigi.

djbrowny is definitely onto something when he talks about the knockback angle.

 

[pensfan728]

Ok crazy idea here. What if DDD's infinite was found during testing(but not on DK and Bowser) and Sakurai just decided to add that if there are 5 DDD d-throws in the stale move queue, it wouldn't be infinite anymore? We know that he lacks foresight(tripping) so he might not have realized throwing in a pummel would keep 5 throws from staying in the queue.

 

[Niko_K]

I can conform that Dthrow has set distance on all characters. I was focusing on Distance moreso than Staling because Everyone was doing it, and I was thinking that I can get a better answer about how Dedede's Dthrow works by figuring out the distance and mechanics of the Dthrow. Here's what I got testing with Stage Buider Blocks for distance, and double checking on Final Destination just incase they didn't get caught by the blocks.

Bowser:
- 1/2 Block on all stales

DK:
- 3/4 Block on all stales

Mario:
1st 2 Stales: 1 1/4 Blocks
Rest: 1 1/8 Blocks

Luigi:
1st Stale: 1 1/2 Blocks
Rest: 1 3/8 Blocks

Samus:
First Stale: 1 1/8 Blocks
Rest: 1 Block exact

The distance is where they landed on the Dthrow, not how much they slided due the traction and angle of the launch. I can confirm that the only thing that gets staled from the Dthrow, is the launch angle. After the first or second throw, it becomes practically 0 degrees. Because the Knockback is set, it never changes no matter how much it's stalled. Don't be confused by how the more staled the throw is, the less distance they are sent back, because that's also due to the launch angle. They just land quicker

Anyways, because the knockback is set, the speed never changes. To explain this best, Take a piece of paper and draw a 10 CM line about 20 Degrees upwards. This represents The Dthrow at it's first few stales. Now draw a Line, Same Distance, 0 Degrees (Completely Flat) Even if you don't draw it out, you can probably see in your mind that the Line at 0 Degrees spends less time in the Grab Range than the one at 20 Degrees. This is why Dedede can't regrab after the stale, because they just shoot out too fast out of the grab reach from the set knockback. That's pretty much there is too it. It's all about the angle.

I don't know if it will effect the other Chaingrabs, but I agree that those should require some testing also. I swear Yoshi can break out after the 3rd or 4th throw.

Edit: I like the 9 Stale Theory, but my research does not follow it through (Unless I'm wrong >_>). However what I am thinking is, Could the Grab ITSELF Registered as a "Staled Attack"?

This brings me back to my theory I posted back on
page 3.
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=5835303&postcount=41

I believe that due to the grab range becoming stale, it is marked as its own stale variable in the stale cue. Thus the 6th grab has too short of range to reach.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I'd highly recommend you guys to read what djbrowny + me wrote about it

 

[Mmac]

This brings me back to my theory I posted back on
page 3.
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=5835303&postcount=41

I believe that due to the grab range becoming stale, it is marked as its own stale variable in the stale cue. Thus the 6th grab has too short of range to reach.

Ah, I just didn't understand that "Grab Range" Part. However I don't believe his range gets reduced if it gets stale. That is, IF it gets stale.

I should look into this some more

I'd highly recommend you guys to read what djbrowny + me wrote about it

I didn't even see that. I just went straight to the last page after reading SP's post.

I guess that answers that question. However we still need to figure out if the Grab itself does take up a slot in the Stale Que

 

[crewster]

I think it is Sakuri's attempt at "Balancing" the game. He just simply didn't know about the other two charecters who DDD can Infinite D-throw.
That's my explination for it and I am sticking to it (for now).

Also: Will the public be able to read the Smash Lab, or will it be secretive?

 

[Ryuker]

Dedede's D-throw has a set knockback because even at 300% it won't kill.

durrrrh.

Ah ok sorry I phrased it wrong I meant there is a possibility it doesn't have a constant knockback. So it could just be it has a set starting knockback then resets after x amount of moves. That it doesn't listen to percentage is obvious.

 

[pensfan728]

I think it is Sakuri's attempt at "Balancing" the game. He just simply didn't know about the other two charecters who DDD can Infinite D-throw.
That's my explination for it and I am sticking to it (for now).

Also: Will the public be able to read the Smash Lab, or will it be secretive?

I just said that. Look, we have a two-person consensus! I must be right.

Spoiler

/joke

 

[LegionBrawler]

Donkey Kong and Bowser are both HUGE compared to luigi/mario/samus making them easier to grab and mario/samus/luigis animation when they are sat on stays longer when they pop forward. This makes their hitbox smaller on an already small character... Also I've noticed the animation gets longer the staler the move is thus making them have to keep the move fresh by throwing in some punches. That is the reason why.

That or luigi/samus/mario tuck their chest in there animation and his arm goes right through/inbetween them missing the hitboxes...

 

[Mmac]

Testing out the "Grab = Part of the Stale Que" Theory, I do not think it does. However what I did figure out is that the Stale Que is not 9 but rather 6-8 Slots. The decrease rate goes like this:

First Throw = 8%
2nd = 7%
3rd = 6%
4th = 5%
5th = 4%
6th = 4% again (Probably 3.8% or something)
7th = 3%
8th? = 3% again (Not sure, every throw after 3% goes up to 7%, making it actually 3.33% or something)

After that, it never goes any lower.

 

[kr3wman]

Testing out the "Grab = Part of the Stale Que" Theory, I do not think it does. However what I did figure out is that the Stale Que is not 9 but rather 6-8 Slots. The decrease rate goes like this:

First Throw = 8%
2nd = 7%
3rd = 6%
4th = 5%
5th = 4%
6th = 4% again (Probably 3.8% or something)
7th = 3%
8th? = 3% again (Not sure, every throw after 3% goes up to 7%, making it actually 3.33% or something)

After that, it never goes any lower.

The stale queue is 9 spots. The game just rounds the numbers up.

 

[Mmac]

The stale queue is 9 spots. The game just rounds the numbers up.

Yeah, but 3% NEVER gets to 6% on the next throw. It always goes to 7% on the next throw rounding it up.

It has to get below 3.25, but it NEVER gets below 3.25. I just have a hard time believing that It goes on for about 2-3 more throws, but drop so radically so little in percent during that last few throws. There's only a .25% Difference between 3 to 7 and 3 to 6.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Hopes Smash Lab is Read only for non members...just saying >.>

 

[Hype]

Hopes Smash Lab is Read only for non members...just saying >.>

I agree.

10

 

[Alopex]

Hmm... my findings indicate so far that it's not angle of release at all, but instead speed of release.

From what I've tested, the more stale the Dthrow is, the faster the character will be thrown. After 5 throws, the characters move too fast for Dedede to grab them in time. The speed at which they travel will of course not effect where they land, since the trajectory is fixed.

Frame data will be posted soon.

 

[Napilopez]

My extensive testing shows that Dedede just gets too tired and bored of grabbing people so much, and his favorite number is 5, so he just stops after 5 regrabs.

However, his boredom levels decrease when he pummels an opponent, D3 finds it entertaining enough to allow for another regrab.

The reason why he continues to regrab DK and Bowser however, is that they owe him food.

 

[Xiivi]

Character's DDD can standing infinite on stage without grab attacks: Donkey Kong, Bowser
Character's DDD can standing infinite on stage with grab attacks: Mario, Samus, Luigi
Character's DDD can standing infinite over the edge of the stage: DDD, Wolf

Now let's look at all the properties of these characters:
Character__: HAS_: HW_: VW_: VAS__: AA__
---
Bowser____: 3.30 : 1.70 : 1.60 : 0.91 : 1.101
Donkey Kong: 3.36 : 1.68 : 1.64 : 0.20 : 1.170
---
Samus_____: 2.97 : 1.62 : 1.49 : -.54 : 1.052
Mario______: 2.92 : 1.52 : 1.44 : 0.00 : 1.000
Luigi_______: 2.29 : 1.53 : 1.43 : -.32 : 0.789
---
King DeDeDe: 2.10 : 1.61 : 1.70 : 0.29 : 0.699
Wolf______ : 3.63 : 1.55 : 1.52 : 1.84 : 1.285
---
HAS = Horizontal Air Speed
HW = Horizontal Weight
VW = Vertical Weight
VAS = Vertical Air Speed
AA = Aerial Acceleration

Taking our knowledge of how stale-move negation works; the only things that change are hitstun, knockback, and damage. A point of note is that all decrease due to stale move negation. I believe some people look at the info given about DDD's chainthrow and assume that his downthrow has a special property in that it increases knockback. I do not believe this is the case; in fact I believe that it obeys the same properties as all moves when it comes to stale move negation, it's silly to think it would be any different.

I think another misconception may be that DDD's downthrow has set knockback. If it did have set knockback, then the angle that each individual character was sent when thrown would not change and the rules of stale-move negation would not change. It may simply have knockback that scales so slowly it is not noteable (much like the cars on Onett, only to a higher degree). Thus the rules of stale-move negation apply to it despite having "set-knockback".

So, since we've established that stale-move negation applies to it, and applies to it in the same manner as it does with all moves, we know that knockback, hitstun, and damage all decrease (even if ever-so-slightly) as the move decays. Since the move decreases in knockback, the angle at which characters are launched will change accordingly. When knockback decreases, the velocity they are launched is altered, and based on their specific properties of HW, VW, HAS, VAS, and AA, the new angle is created.

Specifically, when Mario, Samus, and Luigi are launched at the angle that ends the infinite on them, they travel at an angle that moves them outside of DDD's grab range before he can regrab them. Whereas the angle change that Bowser and Bowser are launched at will never be enough for them to escape the infinite. For Wolf and DDD, the loss of ground allows the angle they are thrown at to be taken advantage of by DDD.

 

[Mmac]

Hmm... my findings indicate so far that it's not angle of release at all, but instead speed of release.

From what I've tested, the more stale the Dthrow is, the faster the character will be thrown. After 5 throws, the characters move too fast for Dedede to grab them in time. The speed at which they travel will of course not effect where they land, since the trajectory is fixed.

Frame data will be posted soon.

No, actually it does have to do with the Angle. It goes the same speed no matter what, but because the Launch Angle is lower, It appears to go faster. This simple Pic will explain things the best.

The higher angle is Dedede's Dthrow when it's not or barley staled. The Lower Angle at 0 Degrees is the Staled Dthrow. They're both the same distance, but because It's higher, It stays in the grab range (Represented by the gray line) longer.

 

[Niko_K]

Xiivi /thread

 

[Lord Viper]

How to grab them to an infinite?

DK - You wait 3-4 seconds then D-Grab him, immiedietly grab him before he hits the ground. You could also walk a little then grab him to make it seem like a infinite grab.

Bowser - After Bowser hits the ground, grab him again very fast and repeat when he hit's the ground. He can't be easily grabed to infinite like DK can, exactly when he hits the ground, you grab him or he will be too far to grab. Or you could walk a little after you grab him to make it look like an infinite grab.

Mario - You have to hit him twice, then when Mario get's a little airborne, grab him again then repeat, it's not easy to do this when he's at a low damage due to break out grabs, and you have to grab him before he gets too low when he's a little air born.

Luigi - You only need one hit then D-Grab on him to do the infinte grab, grab him before he lands, because he slides very far to do a repeat D-Grab.

Samus - Same as Luigi but a little easier because she don't slide like him, and she falls faster which makes it easy to make his grab to an infinte on her.


The speed of the regrab?

DK = 0.8 sec

Bowser = 1.1 sec

Mario = 0.9 sec "after jab"

Luigi = 0.7 sec "after jab"

Samus = 0.8 sec "after jab"


The distance it sends them?

DK = Short Range

Bowser = Medium/Short Range

Mario = Medium Range

Luigi = Long Range

Smaus = Medium/Short Range


The range of the grab?

DK = Very Close

Bowser = Close/Far

Mario = Close

Luigi = Far/Close

Samus = Close

Well at least I gave it a shot.... oh well I lost.

 

[Browny]

I think DJ's theory is interesting, and is most definitely the strongest theory thus far. I'm still not convinced that is exactly what happens, though.

Sif i have to do more work that took me hours to do >_< Sorry to be blunt, but how can you not be convinced? ive proved every single aspect relating to speed and range using frame data is constant while the only thing that is quite clearly changing is the angle at which is launches him? everyone else has seen this in their own sbsequent testing

Also Xivii I tought that stuff was obvious? thats the whole reason he cant CG floaty characters, their combination of airspeeds and weight are the determining factors

 

[Mmac]

The only thing that bothers me about Xiivi's Thesis is that Dedede's Dthrow REALLY DOES have Set Knockback. The distance the victim goes at 999% is the exact same as someone who is 0%. The knockback is never increased or diminished (If it would, then they would travel significantly shorter on stale), only the Launch Angle is diminished on stale.

 

[Xiivi]

The only thing that bothers me about Xiivi's Thesis is that Dedede's Dthrow REALLY DOES have Set Knockback. The distance the victim goes at 999% is the exact same as someone who is 0%. The knockback is never increased or diminished (If it would, then they would travel significantly shorter on stale), only the Launch Angle is diminished on stale.

The angle is directly related to knockback. His knockback may be set horizontally, but it may not be VERTICALLY, resulting in the angle change.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

The angle is directly related to knockback. His knockback may be set horizontally, but it may not be VERTICALLY, resulting in the angle change.

Can't be true. That would almost guarantee a KO @ 999%...

 

[kr3wman]

DDD's throw has a set knockback.

Because if it wasn't than we probably wouldn't be discussing his chaingrab.

 

[Kirk]

I did a lot of testing, and along with what I read here, I would have to agree with most of what has been said. The grab range, speed, buffering, etc. are all the same between a stale and a non-stale grab/throw. There are, however, a few small differences that explain the regrab situation.

I made a video analysis comparing the two grabs. It'll give a visual representation as well as point out the differences using frame data.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xaPqbyjiMU8
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Summary (copied from Youtube description)

Video comparison of DDD infinite chain grab. Testing was used on Samus. Frame Data is listed here and throughout the video.

Summary:

-Both Grabs are started at the same time.

Frame 21: Both Throws Hit.

-Non-Stale Throw has 5 Frames of Hitstun.
-Stale Throw has 4 Frames of Hitstun.

-When the "P2" Marker comes out, this is what I use as an indicator that the opponent has been "thrown." It's a good landmark to use in this situation.

Frame 35: Stale Throw Opponent is "Thrown."

Frame 37: Non-Stale Throw Opponent is "Thrown."

Frame 46: Stale Dthrow IASA Frame, i.e. DDD can grab as early as this frame.

Frame 47: Non-Stale Dthrow IASA Frame, i.e. DDD can grab as early as this frame.

-The one frame difference is due to the extra frame of hitstun in the Non-Stale DThrow.

-Non-Stale Grab succeeds in regrabbing.
-Stale Grab fails in regrabbing.

Summary-Summary: One can see that in the Stale Grab/Throw, your opponent is let loose 2 frames earlier, as well as has a slight upward angle to their trajectory. This basically means your opponent gets out of range of the regrab faster when it is stale.

Note: At :26, it looks like there is a repeated frame in the bottom part of the video. This is true, however it skipped 1 frame before going to the repeat frame, therefore it is still in sync according to the timeline. This is a result of a minor error in the editing process. It doesn't change the facts one bit.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Summary of findings between stale and non-stale Dthrow:

Same:
-Grab hitbox.
-Grab range.
-Dthrow distance thrown.

Different:
-Dthrow Hitstun: Non-Stale has 5 frames of Hitstun, Stale has 4 frames.
-Dthrow IASA Frame: Non-Stale is on frame 47, while Stale is on frame 46. This is only due to the extra frame of Hitstun of the Non-Stale Dthrow.
-Time opponent is "thrown." The Stale Dthrow throws your opponent 2 frames faster. From what I can see, this is due to:
1: 1 less frame of Hitstun.
2: 1 less frame between the time your opponent starts visibly flashing and the time your opponent is thrown...compared to a Non-Stale Dthrow.

-The trajectory/angle your opponent is thrown. It's very slight, but it's there. Perhaps it has something to do with your opponent getting "thrown" a few frames faster?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think that about covers it...

 

[Xiivi]

I'm going to say Kirk wins this one. Nice.