The Smash Lab: What is it?

[Levitas]

I find it interesting that hitlag seems to be a function of move affinity and damage rather than a property of the move used itself.

 

[DRaGZ]

I was under the assumption that since hitstun also decreases as moves get stale, you have to "unstale" the move itself to get back the necessary amount of hitstun frames for the standing d-throw to work. Also, I think that your hitbox (at least for grabbing) is larger when you're in hitstun for some characters because of the pose them make.

Bowser and DK seem to be large enough so that the grab animation doesn't have to travel as far to grab them, but for the other three the slight amount of lag gives them just enough room to move.

 

[Ulevo]

I'm pretty sure I've figured it out.

Decay seems to extend the IASA Frames of moves.

I originally brought up this hypothesis when I was compiling a list for Marths FThrow/DThrow to FSmash combos on each character. While testing, I started to notice that character weight had an effect on how long it takes for a character to throw another, and how quickly they can react after the throw was executed. If I were to perform a FThrow to FSmash on Jiggs, I would never tip because Marth would react too fast for Jiggs to be sent far enough for the proper spacing to tip. If I threw Bowser, it would noticeably be much longer during the process of the throw, as well as how long it took after the throw to react.

That led to my assumption that certain aspects of Brawl can have different effects on the frame rates on attacks. I went and tested to make sure that Dedede's DThrow did not extend or shorten a characters distance after throw after decay set in, as well that damage percent had no effect. The only thing that made sense was the ability to react after the throw, and it made me think back to Marths throw with heavier characters versus lighter characters.

Anyway. For this test, I used Bowser and King Dedede.

Grab Bowser with King Dedede when moves are fresh, and do a DThrow. Upon the DThrow, spam Standard A. If you notice, Bowser will get hit prior to him landing fairly easily. Now, if you were to DThrow him, let him settle his landing after the throw, and then use Standard A, you would still hit him. This displays that Bowser is in proper range to be hit with the Standard A regardless of percent.

Now, after decaying DThrow, try the same attempt. You will notice that King Dedede cannot hit Bowser immediately after the DThrow, regardless if you buffer the attack or not. Because there is no error involved for Shield, we can conclude that it is not mistiming. We know Bowser goes the same distance each throw regardless of percent. Bowsers animation also does not change during the throw regardless of percent or decay.

This can only indicate that decay is effecting King Dedede's ability to react after a certain move has been executed. I assume this holds true for all moves and characters, although I do not have frame rate equipment to prove such theories.

Try for yourselves. I am 99% positive this is the reason. It's decays effect on IASA Frames.

Also, my assumption on why it is so tight to do a regrab with Samus or a Jab follow up with Bowser is both a combination of there animations, the size of their hurt box, and because they are both heavy characters. During DThrow without decay, Dedede has just enough time to perform these moves, despite the effect of character weight on the move. However, after decay, it is just enough to extend the IASA Frame rate to a point where Dedede simply cannot react in time.

Reposting from the other topic.

 

[Thinkaman]

I took some stillshots of two DDDs d-throwing two Marios, one above the other on Shadow Moses, with one being fresh and one being stale. The stale-throw Mario is indeed thrown at a higher trajectory; his feet are slightly higher off the ground than the other.

 

[Kirk]

@Ulevo

I am more than certain that the IASA frame does not change as Dthrow stales. In only gets offset by 1 frame.

I've tested stale vs. non-stale Dthrows on multiple characters(heavyweight, middleweight, lightweight, characters that can be infinited, characters that can be, etc.) and my results have been consistent each and every time.

I tested the IASA frame of DDD's Dthrow separately first to make sure I had correct values and accurate data before I did my Dthrow testing. The IASA frame is technically in the same place, but when put side by side, you can see there is a 1 frame difference. This is due to the 1 less frame of hitlag DDD experiences when Dthrow is staled.

If anything, DDD technically is able to act QUICKER in a Stale Dthrow rather than a Non-Stale Dthrow, again because of that 1 less frame of hitlag.

If you haven't seen it, This video clearly demonstrates this.

In what you described in your testing, I believe Bowser didn't get hit by the follow-up attack is because of the way your opponent gets "thrown" faster in a Stale Dthrow. Your opponent has that 1 frame advantage on you in the Stale Dthrow.

I only respond because I'm pretty sure the IASA frame doesn't change, let alone extends itself with stale moves.

 

[crewster]

I think it's got something to do with the hit-box. Bowser and DK are big, so are easy to grab. Luigi, Mario and Samus are smaller (Samus is thin), aren't as easy to grab and so the move stales.

As to what stales, I think is the grab, it jst loses it's acuracy and range over time and therefore we get a stale grab.

 

[Adapt]

I took a bit of a broader view of the whole thing. The chaingrab itself has a definite trend. The trick is to find out why Mario, Luigi and Samus are different from the rest of the cast.

It isn't because of fall speed or weight as you will soon see. The second column is the knockback of the Dthrow on the character.

ICGD (Infinite Chain Grab with no Decay)

Character weight is the only deciding factor for whether a character can be chaingrabbed or not. The knockback follows the weight exactly until you get to characters that cannot be chained. The reason these character cannot be chained is because they fall to the ground after every throw. Since these characters in effect fall, we must introduce fall speed into the equation. That is why Fox and Sheik get thrown so fast compared to other characters of similar weight.


I suggest that we start to look at how the throw animation is different between:

Samus and Ganondorf/Yoshi
Mario/Luigi and Pit/Sonic/Ivysaur

to find out why they can be infinited.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Weight and fall speed taken from here:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=162546

 

[Kirk]

I suggest that we start to look at how the throw animation is different between:

Samus and Ganondorf/Yoshi
Mario/Luigi and Pit/Sonic/Ivysaur

to find out why they can be infinited.

My thoughts:

Samus' 'getting thrown' animation has her foot sticking out slightly in front of her, which basically makes her hurtbox in range for DDD to grab again. Ganondorf I know has his body more vertical...and no part of his body sticks out as far.

As for Mario/Luigi, they both kind of are leaning forward(head towards DDD) when they are thrown. This is probable cause for the regrab. As for the others you listed, their bodies are again positioned more vertically, so no part of their hurtbox is in range for a standing regrab.

Basically I think it has to do with your opponent's hurtboxes and what orientation they are in when they get thrown. It seems to make sense that way.

I could be wrong on this, so if someone could check this that would be great (no Wii at the moment and I'm about to leave for a tourney xD ).

 

[M.K]

My thoughts:

Samus' 'getting thrown' animation has her foot sticking out slightly in front of her, which basically makes her hurtbox in range for DDD to grab again. Ganondorf I know has his body more vertical...and no part of his body sticks out as far.

As for Mario/Luigi, they both kind of are leaning forward(head towards DDD) when they are thrown. This is probable cause for the regrab. As for the others you listed, their bodies are again positioned more vertically, so no part of their hurtbox is in range for a standing regrab.

Basically I think it has to do with your opponent's hurtboxes and what orientation they are in when they get thrown. It seems to make sense that way.

I could be wrong on this, so if someone could check this that would be great (no Wii at the moment and I'm about to leave for a tourney xD ).

Your argument makes perfect sense.
The characters that can be Standing Infinited are just the unfortunate few who Dedede is able to reach again after a Down Throw. This is because the character either has very low trajectory to "push" themselves away from DDD or they have a certain body part with a grab-able feature that DDD is permitted to grab once again.
Decaying the Down Throw, however, changes the trajectory of the characters that COULD be standing infinited.
I believe that the characters who are standing infinited are just barely inside King Dedede's grab range with non-decayed. It doesn't really matter because DDD will grab them anyways, but once the move is decayed, it gives just the tiniest little push outside DDD's grab range, thus ending the possibility of a Standing Infinite unless you "Un-Decay" the move.

 

[Ref]

Basically what the first two people above me said while I was getting pictures to prove my point:

First example Samus:

She has here foot sticking way out there. This is what is grabbed when doing the infinite

The characters who similar according to Adapt:

Ganondorf keeps all his hurt boxes in by having an almost funny animation. His cape is not a hurt box by the way

Yoshi has his feet out too but not as far as Samus... If yoshi were slightly taller it would cost him dearly...


Second Mario/Luigi both have the same animation:

As much as I would like to say it is their nose it is most likely their hand...

Characters that are similar:

Pit looks like his hand could possibility be grabbed, his hand not having a hurt box could be factor or the grab reaches in the gap between his hand and foot or head and foot.

Ivysaur is self explanatory, he keeping a pretty consistent hurt box with no part more stuck out than the other from the front ...

It seems the tip of sonic's spikes are un-grab-able...


Dedede is approximately in the same frame when all these were taken...

 

[Adapt]

Thanks for that.

I assumed it would be the that the throw animations kept their hurtbox out of the way, but I'm not near my Wii right now to check.

 

[crewster]

My thoughts:
... I'm about to leave for a tourney xD ).

Your argument...move.

Basically...taken

But DK's foot sticks out.

Also: For Mario Luigi and Samus the grab grabs them with very little space between his grab and (Enter character name here)'s face. Wheras for Bowser the hand is far away from his face and for DK the hand is going through his face and it looks like DDD is grabing his neck of his tie. I think this has something to do with why the infinite stalls

 

[pyrotek7x7]

It looks like the problem has been solved pretty well, with no specific person holding the entire answer first. >_<

 

[Levitas]

which is probably how most conundrums will work in the smash lab once things get going.

 

[M.K]

But DK's foot sticks out.

Also: For Mario Luigi and Samus the grab grabs them with very little space between his grab and (Enter character name here)'s face. Wheras for Bowser the hand is far away from his face and for DK the hand is going through his face and it looks like DDD is grabing his neck of his tie. I think this has something to do with why the infinite stalls

Dk's Foot might stick out, but there is no "grab" box on his foot.
It's like trying to catch a basketball by clenching your fist as it is thrown at you.
You might touch it, and it might be really close to you, but you can't get a firm grasp on it.

EDIT: To SamuraiPanda, I think only admitting one person to the Smash Lab at a time is sort of flawed because multiple people have contributed to this topic in many ways.
I would suggest admitting 3-4 at a time, depending on those who contributed to the winning/correct argument.

 

[Flamingo777]

Personally, in my trials and efforts, I believe it is because of a hitbox lag that happens on some characters but not others. The hitbox-lagging characters get infi-grabbed, while the others who have regular hitboxes do not.

 

[Ref]

But DK's foot sticks out.

Also: For Mario Luigi and Samus the grab grabs them with very little space between his grab and (Enter character name here)'s face. Wheras for Bowser the hand is far away from his face and for DK the hand is going through his face and it looks like DDD is grabing his neck of his tie. I think this has something to do with why the infinite stalls

DK gets infinite chained too... Bowser gets in a super long chain grab.... Which might as well be infinite... So I don't get what you are trying to say with that first statement.... If anything that first statement proved the people who I proved right with pictures even have more proof...

And for DK it looks like he is just released in Dedede's grab range and Dedede just grabbed him... Or his hand if you want to get that whole stuck out hurt box thing...

Or even better lets say his foot since you brought up that his foot sticks out....

As for Bowser his position and slide distance also allows dedede to slightly walk and grab him...

 

[Adapt]

which is probably how most conundrums will work in the smash lab once things get going.

It's best to have a group with different viewpoints while working on problems like this. I can't imagine the Lab working any other way.

EDIT: To SamuraiPanda, I think only admitting one person to the Smash Lab at a time is sort of flawed because multiple people have contributed to this topic in many ways.
I would suggest admitting 3-4 at a time, depending on those who contributed to the winning/correct argument.

He is just awarding the first person. After this contest is decided he will start letting people in by invites and applications. Prolly the first couple of people who enter are gonna be the ones who contributed a lot to this topic.

I imagine 4-5 people will be let in after a short time.

 

[M.K]

DK gets infinite chained too... Bowser gets in a super long chain grab.... Which might as well be infinite... So I don't get what you are trying to say with that first statement.... If anything that first statement proved the people who I proved right with pictures even have more proof...

And for DK it looks like he is just released in Dedede's grab range and Dedede just grabbed him... Or his hand if you want to get that whole stuck out hurt box thing...

Or even better lets say his foot since you brought up that his foot sticks out....

As for Bowser his position and slide distance also allows dedede to slightly walk and grab him...

Only Samus, Mario, and Luigi must be "refreshed" because they eventually have the ability to escape.
I guess I did read wrong against DK, for some reason, I was thinking of Sonic. O_o
We can't deny that alot of the characters in the game are able to be chained by Dedede, but to what extent and of what magnitude on the gameplay it has, we have yet to find out.
We can always determine which characters can and can not be chaingrabbed, but these three particular characters are....just hopeless against someone who can do this consistently. On the King Dedede boards, the match-ups for Samus, Mario, and Luigi are all 90-10 in Dedede's favor.
Refreshing the move is just one tiny extra step in just....destroying these characters.
Bowser is able to be chain-grabbed, yes, but we are trying to deal with a standing infinite.
Every extra move that Dedede has to make is another oppurtunity for error (or tripping). This inifinite is almost guaranteed for someone who knows the timing and someone who can effectively trap the opponent be refreshing with a Grab Attack.

He is just awarding the first person. After this contest is decided he will start letting people in by invites and applications. Prolly the first couple of people who enter are gonna be the ones who contributed a lot to this topic.

I imagine 4-5 people will be let in after a short time.

Oh, ok. That makes alot of sense!
So basically, the first person has the "honor" of being the first accepted member, and then Panda will choose the remaining members as he sees fit. Sounds good to me.

 

[Ref]

I merely stated what I needed to address the points said by crewster... I'm pretty sure the whole contest was won by Kirk... His explanation was proved with frame data and is pretty much flawless. I only brought up DK and Bowser to try to address the point that DK also sticks out his foot, mentioned by crewster... What I said has nothing to do with how the standing infinite works... Kirk already said how it worked.

Yes the grab does hurt the characters badly. I know all the information you stated. This grab was discovered a while ago. We know it makes the match up near impossible for these characters. There is no way to deal with it for it is inescapable. The purpose of this contest was to find out why stale moves affect it. Kirk already told us saying that a stale grab releases the opponent earlier due to less hit stun causing them to get away faster from the grab.

 

[M.K]

I merely stated what I needed to address the points said by crewster... I'm pretty sure the whole contest was won by Kirk... His explanation was proved with frame data and is pretty much flawless. I only brought up DK and Bowser to try to address the point that DK also sticks out his foot, mentioned by crewster... What I said has nothing to do with how the standing infinite works... Kirk already said how it worked.

Yes the grab does hurt the characters badly. I know all the information you stated. This grab was discovered a while ago. We know it makes the match up near impossible for these characters. There is no way to deal with it for it is inescapable. The purpose of this contest was to find out why stale moves affect it. Kirk already told us saying that a stale grab releases the opponent earlier due to less hit stun causing them to get away faster from the grab.

Yep, I think Kirk is dead on! His theory is exactly what is true.

 

[Pr0phetic]

Dedede's downthrow stales when he does the infinite grab. What becomes stale? The speed of the regrab? The distance it sends them? The range of the grab? As far as I know, this question remains unanswered to this day, so even I have no idea how this works.

The distance they are launch is increased, the range remains the same, and as far as i know the Re-Grab speed is constant.
It seems like he character properties on Mario/Luigi/Samus have something in common when they react to the stale grab, makign them actually go farther.
Ima crack this, i know it =P

[EDIT] After reviewng some stuff, i think the hurtbox of those characters retract further as D3's DThrow stales. Why you ask?, Well, after the throw stales, the animation of the release or freeze shortens, allowing for the chars hurtbox to move a little further, maybe even a minute distance. I'd need some Debug mode to test it fully (like in Melee.)

 

[Rockin]

I would like to say my opinon about this. sorry if this has been repeated. ><;;

Okay, first thing should be known. Samus, Luigi, and Mario have bad to poor traction (Luigi's being the worst). This means that whether you softly walk and come to a halt, they may slide a bit more forward then expected (or something similar to that nature)

I did several test. First being Olimar standing chaingrab Samus (with blue pikmins, being that they have the same grab range as Dedede) with dthrows. I was able to get up to around the 20s digits (keep in mind the hurt box showed around 9). Then I did the same with Mario and Luigi, as I was able to get around the teens. It proved that the grab range itself doesn't deminish, nor the ability to after 5 aginst these characters.

I looked at Dedede when he throws the CGers and while each of them is in the hurt box, they're actually sliding along the ground. This is why Luigi is far away after Dedede: because of his poor tractions, it's making him slide away from him farther.

Then I did another test. I was wolf and I made a customize stage with a straight row of block floors that was a total of 18. I used this stage for special brawl with 300% percent. I first used a non slippy character like Bowser as my opponent and Dthrowed him with Wolf. He slide up to 15 blocks. Then I did the same thing with Samus, Mario, and Luigi. Samus and Mario slide as far as 17 blocks while Luigi slid clean off the stage (fail lol)

Finally, I did another test with a chaingrabber. Lucario. I used him against Fox and chaingrabbed him with the uthrow. A notice of the different animation by Fox was at 15. After killing both of them, I did it again, thinking the Lucario's grab was refreshed, but it wasn't for some odd reason. when I CGed Fox again, the difference in animation of the hurt box was at -19-. 4 more throws then before. I thought this was pretty weird, so it couldn't be that the grab range or power changes even after you kill yourself with the CGer and CGee.

----------------- CONCLUSION---------------------------

I believe that a rare few of characters have a maximum amount of grabs they can do to a character. When you look in Adapt's list and look between Samus and Luigi, there should've been more characters who could be ICGed or ICGDed. On Mario, Luigi, and Samus, Dedede has 5. For Lucario on Fox, he has 15 + 4 extra. There could have been some favorism towards Mario, Luigi, and Samus, but I doubt that...>>

It could also be possible that after the 5th throw, Dedede could actually GAIN a knockback point or two, which in reference to Samus, Mario's, and Luigi's traction. This is possibly to discourage the multi use of this while also restricting its abusivness.. Remember, all of Dedede's CG victims are sliding on the floor, despite the look of the CG's animation. Proof of this is by Dtilting Luigi, Samus, and Mario. After a fresh Dtilt, none of them can be grabbed. But as to say DK, he actually can because he's not sliding.

I hope this information has proved some usefulness... >>

 

[M.K]

@Rockin, moves only refresh with the user dies, not the victim. Otherwise, good correlation between the traction and the chain grab. ^^

This sort of conversation and discovery really attracts me. I seriously would love to be a Smash Researcher, but the first spot will go to someone else. I hope to be one of the "first wave" researchers.
=D

 

[Rockin]

@Rockin, moves only refresh with the user dies, not the victim. Otherwise, good correlation between the traction and the chain grab. ^^

This sort of conversation and discovery really attracts me. I seriously would love to be a Smash Researcher, but the first spot will go to someone else. I hope to be one of the "first wave" researchers.
=D

That's what I mean. Even when Lucario died (I had to kill off Fox to refresh the percentage as well), Lucario went an extra 4 grabs before the animation changed. It just seemed like characters were meant to have a certain limit of grabs against certain characters.

 

[FadedImage]

I'm gonna hafta agree with the hurtbox theory about why stale moves only affects Luigi/Mario/Samus. I was thinking that it might have to do with horizontal aerial speed, but Luigi ranks almost worst on that list, whereas Samus is close to the middle. (list).

Food for thought: Why does removing the ground under Dedede and Wolf suddenly allow them to be regrabbed? Is it the animation of them gliding across the ground better than them in the air?

I don't have a capture card or anything, but I'd like to see some screens of Wolf/Dedede d-thrown on and off stage.

 

[Kirk]

Nice pictures Ref! That really shows it well. :D

/superlateresponse

 

[crewster]

For Mario Luigi and Samus the grab grabs them with very little space between his grab and (Enter character name here)'s face. Wheras for Bowser the hand is far away from his face and for DK the hand is going through his face and it looks like DDD is grabing his neck of his tie. I think this has something to do with why the infinite stalls

I took some stillshots of two DDDs d-throwing two Marios, one above the other on Shadow Moses, with one being fresh and one being stale. The stale-throw Mario is indeed thrown at a higher trajectory; his feet are slightly higher off the ground than the other.

That's it. As the move is used on characters who get grabed close to their body the throw gradualy has a higher trajectory until it is out of range and there is a stale move. As to why only those 5 characters can be infinited it's because of their hurt box's.

Also: I can't see the sub forum called the smash lab.

 

[Ref]

Nice pictures Ref! That really shows it well. :D

/superlateresponse

Took me a while to get them... Mainly the pausing in the right frame and uploading process made it so long. Glad it helped though.

 

[Mmac]

Aren't we done yet? We pretty much went over every aspect of Dedede's Infinite already, and figured out what stalls in his Dthrow. Now we're just going into universal stuff

 

[NeoZero]

Samurai can't do anything about this right now, since his computers fried (or at least, that's what I heard). Just wait a few more days and he should have a new one.

Of course, I could be completely wrong on that.

 

[Mmac]

Ah, I didn't know that his Computer was down

 

[IDK]

----------------- CONCLUSION---------------------------

I believe that a rare few of characters have a maximum amount of grabs they can do to a character. When you look in Adapt's list and look between Samus and Luigi, there should've been more characters who could be ICGed or ICGDed. On Mario, Luigi, and Samus, Dedede has 5. For Lucario on Fox, he has 15 + 4 extra. There could have been some favorism towards Mario, Luigi, and Samus, but I doubt that...>>

It could also be possible that after the 5th throw, Dedede could actually GAIN a knockback point or two, which in reference to Samus, Mario's, and Luigi's traction. This is possibly to discourage the multi use of this while also restricting its abusivness.. Remember, all of Dedede's CG victims are sliding on the floor, despite the look of the CG's animation. Proof of this is by Dtilting Luigi, Samus, and Mario. After a fresh Dtilt, none of them can be grabbed. But as to say DK, he actually can because he's not sliding.

I hope this information has proved some usefulness... >>

if this were true, it would mean that it were purposely put into the game, which means sakurai expected there to be infinite CG's. he could have guessed that there probably would be...

also i remember a thread about sakurai saying something about who his favorite characters were. i'm not sure who they were, but mario, luigi, and samus... dont sound familiar.

i think i major part of this is OBVIOUSLY weight. they just have less knockback.

What really strikes my interest is something i read about D3 a long time ago. It was some weird word that was like WABBLGAFGH or something weird like that. it was some sort of half trip/ low angled, low knockback, weird animation, that struck little interest in me at the time. Now, i think it possibly could apply, due to the frequent discussion of how the throw-ee goes into specific animations, and from what we know about what D3's dthrow looks like when someone is thrown by it. If someone can find this thread, or knows what i'm talking about, please look into it.

 

[ph00tbag]

****, I only found out about this at the end of the day, yesterday, and only read it just now. I would have liked at least to help out. Kirk pretty much nailed it, though.

I think it's really odd, though, that the post-hitlag (throwlag?) animation for the throwee would be shorter as a result of decay. If it's not too much, trouble, Kirk, could you maybe check to see if a similar thing occurs for other throws? Maybe there's a special quality to throws related to hitstun that also decays.

IDK: I think you're thinking about HUARGH and WHARRGARBL states. I don't think it correlates all that directly, though. No character HUARGHs after DDD's dthrow. Some of them WHARRGARBLE at ground level, but most of them do it in the air. It seems to bear no relation to a character being ICG-able. For instance, Bowser WHARRGARBLs at ground level, but Samus doesn't. Interestingly, Ganondorf does.

I think it does correlate, though, as to whether a character can be CG'd at all or not. The idea is that all of the characters that can be CG'd only WHARRGARBLE, a state in which they cannot tech against the ground. Lighter characters are knocked father, and thus stay airborne long enough to enter a standard tumble (Maybe it should be called WAAAGH for the sake of consistency?), and a standard tumble can be teched.

This does still leave us with Luigi's oddness, although my suspicion is that he escapes the dash grab due to his low traction.

 

[Rockin]

also i remember a thread about sakurai saying something about who his favorite characters were. i'm not sure who they were, but mario, luigi, and samus... dont sound familiar.

It was Kirby, Meta, and Dedede

 

[Sharky]

he even voiced D3 so that makes sense lol

*support for kirk's bid for researcher*

 

[SamuraiPanda]

Okaaay, so after a long and hard struggle to get my computer to work (I went through 2 montherboards in the last week) I finally have it up and running. But I've unfortunately missed out on this thread, so I'm quite behind. I'll catch up over the course of today/tomorrow, and I'll hopefully start admissions soon.

 

[Shell]

Seems to me like Phantom Wings should have the honor of being the first Smash Lab member due to his ground breaking work on coding Melee air dodging, L/S-canceling, and increased hitstun.

But that's just me.

 

[MuBa]

Seems to me like Phantom Wings should have the honor of being the first Smash Lab member due to his ground breaking work on coding Melee air dodging, L/S-canceling, and increased hitstun.

But that's just me.

I would agree if it weren't the fact that he doesn't care that much about making Brawl+

Although I would definitely like to contribute a lot to the making of Brawl+ because I'm usually the first one to test out a lot of the new codes being made and give construct criticism as to what needs to be fixed.

Although I do see Jose Gallardo being in these boards more often than Phantom Wings.

But for one thing we definitely need a hacker that cares enough about changing mechanics of the Brawl to make it more competitive.

 

[kupo15]

Although I would definitely like to contribute a lot to the making of Brawl+ because I'm usually the first one to test out a lot of the new codes being made and give construct criticism as to what needs to be fixed.

Although I do see Jose Gallardo being in these boards more often than Phantom Wings.

But for one thing we definitely need a hacker that cares enough about changing mechanics of the Brawl to make it more competitive.

QFT Me too