Face124
Smash Ace
I would say that you should just go ahead and put Mmac in it straight away. I see him posting loads of new discoveries, cg's, infinites and other **** everywhere. and man, those yoshi pictures a bloody good 
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The Smash Lab: What is it?
- Thread starter SamuraiPanda
- Start date
- Status
M.K
Level 55
Sorry to hear about your computer
They tend to cop-out right when something important happens.Sounds good to me, no rush, SP.
Rhubarbo
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2007
- Messages
- 2,035
Hey guys, I think I can contribute to this, even though it may not be significant. I have devised a definition for a term that is considered to be somewhat ambiguous amongst Smashers. This term is non-other than "mindgames".
My definition for mindgames is as follows: A mindgame is a maneuver executed by a player in a manner to provoke the foe to perform an action that would result in them being damaged. A mindgame is not a technique that is considered part of the standard meta game (unless utilized to the extent where it does), and it is intended to deceive the foe.
My definition for mindgames is as follows: A mindgame is a maneuver executed by a player in a manner to provoke the foe to perform an action that would result in them being damaged. A mindgame is not a technique that is considered part of the standard meta game (unless utilized to the extent where it does), and it is intended to deceive the foe.
PK-ow!
Smash Lord
Mindgames are turning prediction into manipulation.
The first addition to your game after you've got the technical ability is you have to predict moves. This gives you frames in which you can act, because your reaction time to what you see is not zero, whereas you could just assume what you're going to see, act, and lose no frames at all. Moreover, prediction is necessary to combat the slightest of move abuse or tactical bias. Without it, you're playing like the CPU - only able to pick 'good' moves out of a vacuum, with every possibility treated as equally likely (indeed, even the CPU has some mechanisms that stand in for awareness of what its opponent is prone to do).
Every Human does some prediction; some become better.
Mindgames are moving this ability to the next level: Using your know-how of dealing with what the enemy will do, you create know-that of what the other player would do. You form explicit knowledge of what your opponent's behaviour is like, and in real time, create a plan to exploit it. When you pick an action you want to see from your enemy, put in the preconditions on your end, and in fact succeed in manipulating that response out of the foe, that is a mindgame.
It could consist in figuring out how the opponent is trying to predict you, but not necessarily. You could exploit an opponent's failure to predict, certainly - just find one tactic they don't answer and spam it. In this case, the sole precondition on your end is "You use the move." The manipulated response? They "jump into the ****." Over and over again.
Mindgames are so enthralling because the step where the plan is formed takes a monumental leap of cognitive power. Every day we turn explicit knowledge into implicit know-how. Going the other way is extraordinarily rare. Doing it in real time - under pressure, with the rigours of a platform fighter* draining your attention? It takes a masterstroke to do it. That's why they're always impressive.
This Smash lab sounds great. I love trying to explain game mechanics. Also naming them - nomenclature is serious business. This should be a goal for me. *glee*
I have a question. How do people get frame data?
*lol SSB's not a platform fighter
The first addition to your game after you've got the technical ability is you have to predict moves. This gives you frames in which you can act, because your reaction time to what you see is not zero, whereas you could just assume what you're going to see, act, and lose no frames at all. Moreover, prediction is necessary to combat the slightest of move abuse or tactical bias. Without it, you're playing like the CPU - only able to pick 'good' moves out of a vacuum, with every possibility treated as equally likely (indeed, even the CPU has some mechanisms that stand in for awareness of what its opponent is prone to do).
Every Human does some prediction; some become better.
Mindgames are moving this ability to the next level: Using your know-how of dealing with what the enemy will do, you create know-that of what the other player would do. You form explicit knowledge of what your opponent's behaviour is like, and in real time, create a plan to exploit it. When you pick an action you want to see from your enemy, put in the preconditions on your end, and in fact succeed in manipulating that response out of the foe, that is a mindgame.
It could consist in figuring out how the opponent is trying to predict you, but not necessarily. You could exploit an opponent's failure to predict, certainly - just find one tactic they don't answer and spam it. In this case, the sole precondition on your end is "You use the move." The manipulated response? They "jump into the ****." Over and over again.
Mindgames are so enthralling because the step where the plan is formed takes a monumental leap of cognitive power. Every day we turn explicit knowledge into implicit know-how. Going the other way is extraordinarily rare. Doing it in real time - under pressure, with the rigours of a platform fighter* draining your attention? It takes a masterstroke to do it. That's why they're always impressive.
This Smash lab sounds great. I love trying to explain game mechanics. Also naming them - nomenclature is serious business. This should be a goal for me. *glee*
I have a question. How do people get frame data?
*lol SSB's not a platform fighter
Crow!
Smash Lord
Only partly on topic: does anyone know if hitstun applied to the attacker and the hitstun applied to the person hit are always equal in duration?
SamuraiPanda
Smash Hero
- Joined
- May 22, 2006
- Messages
- 6,924
Well, the contest winner was most definitely Kirk, congratulations! Your acceptance will be the first one I issue, but for now I'm going to create a draft of the first wave of entries before I begin sending acceptances, which could take a little bit given my schedule. Also, I'm definitely looking for more hackers to join the cause, as the Smash Lab would be incomplete without a strong hacking section as well.
Wouldn't M2K auto-fit the criteria for Smash Researcher?
lolz.
lolz.
Kirk
Smash Champion
Mmac
Smash Lord
Although my Angle Theory still holds true, just not the primary reason anymore....
*Awaits Draft*
Adapt
Smash Lord
Curse my not having the equipment to record frames... COngrats Kirk
When do you think other people will be allowed to start applying SP?
When do you think other people will be allowed to start applying SP?
Browny
Smash Hater
excuse me?
YOUR angle theory?
pffft. Read post #4, page 1 http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=205203
Blad01
Smash Lord
Ahah, great job Kirk ^^
I think that Adapt could be a good SL Member, seing his chart for spikes by example.
[EDIT : Hehe, some more work for you contestants : http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=205916. If you really like that]
I think that Adapt could be a good SL Member, seing his chart for spikes by example.
[EDIT : Hehe, some more work for you contestants : http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=205916. If you really like that
]
Terios the Hedgehog
Smash Hero
I'm too lazy to finish looking through the thread. =P
I always thought it was because hitstun decays with the damage and knockback letting them escape. Tenki mentioned that a while ago.
Is that how it works?
I always thought it was because hitstun decays with the damage and knockback letting them escape. Tenki mentioned that a while ago.
Is that how it works?
lain
Smash Master
Samurai Panda is gay
lain
Smash Master
teal name plz?
Terios the Hedgehog
Smash Hero
Somebody give this man a teal name.
I saw Kirk's post and kinda figured he would win, but I still wanted to hold some faith that mine was correct
congrats Kirk. ^^
congrats Kirk. ^^
M.K
Level 55
Just as a reminder to everyone:
Simply posting in this topic doesn't enter you into the running to become a Smash Researcher.
You must go to User CP ---> Group Memberships ----> Smash Researchers.
I just don't want anyone who truly deserves the title to be left out.
Congratulations to Kirk! I hope to be one of the first wave Researchers....
Simply posting in this topic doesn't enter you into the running to become a Smash Researcher.
You must go to User CP ---> Group Memberships ----> Smash Researchers.
I just don't want anyone who truly deserves the title to be left out.
Congratulations to Kirk! I hope to be one of the first wave Researchers....
Crow!
Smash Lord
Okay, a bit of research of my own:
Objective: Determine if freeze frames and/or hitstun are longer with decay.
Method:
Set damage ratio to 0.5, use Mario and Bowser.
Mario does uptaunt, stopwatch starts timing upon shrinking.
Mario does 10x utilt against Bowser. (Utilt can be buffered for effectively frame perfect input timing.)
Bowser SDs to reset damage.
Mario does uptaunt, 10x utilt as before (this time they're stale).
Save replay, do timing from there.
Compare timing.
Result: The two times were within a few hundreths of a second, probably a function of my operation of the stopwatch rather than the game. If either freeze frames or IASA slow down, it is by a very small amount indeed, as it should be repeated several times. Unfortunately, the repetition is less than 10: the last few attacks in the "fresh" test are indeed stale.
One possible explaination of this data is that IASA frames increase but freeze frames decrease or vice versa; to test this, look for IASA delay alone.
Objective: determine if IASA frames are being delayed.
Method:
Mario does up taunt, 10x utilt, timed, without hitting Bowser.
Mario hits Bowser 10x with utilt.
Mario does up taunt, 10x utilt, timed, without hitting Bowser.
Save replay, compare timing.
Result: Stale moves and normal moves had the total attacking time again come out to within a few hundreths of a second. If stale moves have longer or shorter IASA frames, it is by a very small amount indeed - I should have multiplied its duration by 10 here, so one frame difference would come out to 0.14 seconds, which I should have easily picked up. Instead, differences from one timing to another were consistently within 0.03 seconds.
I therefore conclude that IASA frames are not changed by stale moves, at least not in every case. Hit-related freeze frames, if they are any different, are different by a frame or two at most, at least for Mario's utilt. Thus from the attacker's side, the timing of inputs should not be changing by any more than a frame, if that - frame timing capable equipment would have to be used to determine that, or a more clever method would have to be devised.
Objective: Determine if freeze frames and/or hitstun are longer with decay.
Method:
Set damage ratio to 0.5, use Mario and Bowser.
Mario does uptaunt, stopwatch starts timing upon shrinking.
Mario does 10x utilt against Bowser. (Utilt can be buffered for effectively frame perfect input timing.)
Bowser SDs to reset damage.
Mario does uptaunt, 10x utilt as before (this time they're stale).
Save replay, do timing from there.
Compare timing.
Result: The two times were within a few hundreths of a second, probably a function of my operation of the stopwatch rather than the game. If either freeze frames or IASA slow down, it is by a very small amount indeed, as it should be repeated several times. Unfortunately, the repetition is less than 10: the last few attacks in the "fresh" test are indeed stale.
One possible explaination of this data is that IASA frames increase but freeze frames decrease or vice versa; to test this, look for IASA delay alone.
Objective: determine if IASA frames are being delayed.
Method:
Mario does up taunt, 10x utilt, timed, without hitting Bowser.
Mario hits Bowser 10x with utilt.
Mario does up taunt, 10x utilt, timed, without hitting Bowser.
Save replay, compare timing.
Result: Stale moves and normal moves had the total attacking time again come out to within a few hundreths of a second. If stale moves have longer or shorter IASA frames, it is by a very small amount indeed - I should have multiplied its duration by 10 here, so one frame difference would come out to 0.14 seconds, which I should have easily picked up. Instead, differences from one timing to another were consistently within 0.03 seconds.
I therefore conclude that IASA frames are not changed by stale moves, at least not in every case. Hit-related freeze frames, if they are any different, are different by a frame or two at most, at least for Mario's utilt. Thus from the attacker's side, the timing of inputs should not be changing by any more than a frame, if that - frame timing capable equipment would have to be used to determine that, or a more clever method would have to be devised.
lain
Smash Master
... what a cuban *******
Mmac
Smash Lord
.... Fine - _-
It's not Teal!Somebody give this man a teal name.
IT'S CYAN!
J4pu
Smash Champion
I have a question regarding the Smash Lab
How are you going to decide when a topic is ready to be viewed by everybody that isn't a part of the smashlab? Also where exactly will those threads be posted? Will they be stickied, will they be linked to in the "collection of useful threads" stickied thread in tactical?
How are you going to decide when a topic is ready to be viewed by everybody that isn't a part of the smashlab? Also where exactly will those threads be posted? Will they be stickied, will they be linked to in the "collection of useful threads" stickied thread in tactical?
Mmac
Smash Lord
It still holds true though, because the Path DOES change when staled. In my opinion, I think it's a combination of both
Kirk
Smash Champion
It's possible...
Basically, the main thing to look at is that opponents' hurtboxes get further away from DDD when Dthrow is stale.
We know that opponents get released 1 frame earlier, and that contributes to their hurtbox being more distanced from DDD. But does the slight change in trajectory play a factor as well? Maybe, maybe not. In the end, it's just too hard to really test and get a concrete answer. At least, I don't know of a reliable method.
LatexRhombus
Smash Journeyman
for dedede's infinite...its the distance it sends them that stalls...or at least id assume...being that ive stood on teh edge of corneria and backthrew a fox and watched as his percentage went up each time he went less far -_- id assume the other grab works the same. and if the characters hit with a different amount of force, the smaller ones end up in places wehre they cannot be instantly regrabbed as opposed to the larger dk where his exact location is negligible....
Is there any empirical proof, though? Kirk's video didn't superimpose Samus' path starting from the release of the throw, so all we have is naked eye observations, and that's not reliable, since Samus is at different parts of the path every frame, ergo she is in two different places. Your eye will play tricks on you in that situation.
This is why I suggested comparing trajectories off of a platform with a 2.0 damage ratio. Any differences will be amplified by the 2x multiplier and the lengthened falling path.
Kirk
Smash Champion
I just thought of a nifty way to show if there is indeed a difference in the trajectory of the path traveled by DDD's opponent after being Dthrow'd...at least in my mind I'm pretty sure it will work. :D
If I have time after work today, I'll get some footage and edit together a video and upload it.
If I have time after work today, I'll get some footage and edit together a video and upload it.
Congrats kirk but I still think my theory was good:
*hopes panda doesn't see this* I hope to be one of the first wave *hopes panda doesn't see this*
Kirk
Smash Champion
I'm not trying to say your theories are incorrect, I'm merely trying to prove if they are in fact true or not.
Theories are just that...theories...until they are proven right or wrong.
That's what I'm hoping to do with the whole "change in trajectory" business.
Theories are just that...theories...until they are proven right or wrong.
That's what I'm hoping to do with the whole "change in trajectory" business.
Work is boring and I want to go home... *cry*
D
Deleted member
Guest
DDD's CG is a true infinite on all 5 characters. The diminished throw only effects DDD before 50% when he isn't able to get a grab attack out. But once he can it's to death. Before that it's five standing grabs which lead into the chain grab or back throw which almost always adds up to 50 or so. You just can't start it directly from 0.
Cyan name plz.
Cyan name plz.
Kirk
Smash Champion
I don't care if it wasn't really needed, but I made a video comparing the trajectories of the opponents during the Stale and Non-Stale Dthrow.
Watch in High Quality for a better picture. :o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGBxjTVnofM
Copy/Paste from Youtube description:
--------------------------------------------------
This video concerns the discussion in this thread on smashboards: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=205203
A comparison of DDD's opponent's trajectory when DThrow'd (Stale and Non-Stale).
I overlapped the two clips, altered their transparency and positioned them at the same point in the timeline, i.e. both clips start exactly after hitlag ends (so there is no offset).
I used some color alterations to make the differences more visible. I hope it will suffice.
--The darker, more real looking image is the STALE Dthrow.
--The lighter clip is the NON-STALE Dthrow.
Conclusion: To me, it looks like they have the same trajectory. Mario and Luigi seem to rotate their heads out of the way sooner in the Stale Dthrow and that is what causes DDD to miss his regrab. This also supports my previous findings of the 1 frame advantage your opponent has in a Stale Dthrow.
I hope the quality doesn't suffer too much...
--------------------------------------------------
I had some time...so why not? >.>
Watch in High Quality for a better picture. :o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGBxjTVnofM
Copy/Paste from Youtube description:
--------------------------------------------------
This video concerns the discussion in this thread on smashboards: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=205203
A comparison of DDD's opponent's trajectory when DThrow'd (Stale and Non-Stale).
I overlapped the two clips, altered their transparency and positioned them at the same point in the timeline, i.e. both clips start exactly after hitlag ends (so there is no offset).
I used some color alterations to make the differences more visible. I hope it will suffice.
--The darker, more real looking image is the STALE Dthrow.
--The lighter clip is the NON-STALE Dthrow.
Conclusion: To me, it looks like they have the same trajectory. Mario and Luigi seem to rotate their heads out of the way sooner in the Stale Dthrow and that is what causes DDD to miss his regrab. This also supports my previous findings of the 1 frame advantage your opponent has in a Stale Dthrow.
I hope the quality doesn't suffer too much...
--------------------------------------------------
I had some time...so why not? >.>
This is pretty much the test that I wanted to see. So it's not angle, it's just stale hitlag and some kind of odd post-hitlag throw state.
I think if I had more time and the necessary equipment, I'd look into whether this affects other throws as well.
Mmac
Smash Lord
It's Amazing that one simple frame can cause so much difference
It's also amazing that it can cause so much illusion
It's also amazing that it can cause so much illusion
Browny
Smash Hater
1 frame was all it took for fox's shine to break melee
M.K
Level 55
I agree!
So, let me get this straight in my mind:
When Mario, Luigi, and Samus get infinite grabbed, they are barely being grabbed.
So barely.... that the slightest degradation of Dedede's down Throw would render them free from the infinite, forcing King Dedede to refresh the move in order to keep the infinite alive?
Finally, I have been looking for a thread for frame data on things such as DAC. (for all characters)
Glad it was finally put up. I'll be back to ask this question once we have established a good amount of researchers.
I originally wanted to be a researcher but I am terrible at doing it so I wont even apply.....
Glad it was finally put up. I'll be back to ask this question once we have established a good amount of researchers.
I originally wanted to be a researcher but I am terrible at doing it so I wont even apply.....
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