phi1ny3
Not the Mama
The truth is tho, you really should use jab after dthrow whether infinite or not when you can anyways, because since kill DI isn't an issue (for obvious reasons), and getting the most out of your grab is always good.
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The Smash Lab: What is it?
- Thread starter SamuraiPanda
- Start date
- Status
Zylar
Smash Ace
Okay, this is all good and all, since you guys seem to have figured this whole thing out with time, unless I missed some questions.
So how are you guys gonna apply this knowledge? I mean, now what are you gonna do?
So how are you guys gonna apply this knowledge? I mean, now what are you gonna do?
Mmac
Smash Lord
I would really preferred that the the SRG Would start taking in members as soon as possible. The faster it opens, the faster we can actually get working on stuff.
SCOTU
Smash Hero
what next? get into the SRL and research EVEN MORE AWESOME STUFF!
Panda's got irl **** that's > you
Mmac
Smash Lord
....... What?
Browny
Smash Hater
it means stop being impatient
I also like your use of 'we' lol...
I also like your use of 'we' lol...
Mmac
Smash Lord
But I wants Research NAO!!! >_<
.... Fine I'll wait
.... Fine I'll wait
Sharky
Smash Master
pssh, you do your own research all the time, anyway, Mmac. Just do that some more. =P
Ice Climbers P and N
Smash Lord
I'm so into this, but the wording, so harsh.
MuBa
Smash Lord
Well I've finally found the reason why some of the characters "fall" rather than get "stunned" when down-thrown by Dedede.
According to the new hitstun modifier hack we received, what we've noticed after raising the hitstun, everyone ended up falling straight down, nullifying Dedede's chain grab altogether.
So the lighter characters that fall off actually have a higher stun time than the heavier ones.
Dedede's chaingrab relies on the stun that every character possesses. And it seems like Mario, Luigi, Bowser, Samus, and Donkey Kong have that awkard hitstun time that enables Dedede to do an infinite on them. But to maintain the infinite he needs the D-throw to not be fully stale or else it won't work.
According to the new hitstun modifier hack we received, what we've noticed after raising the hitstun, everyone ended up falling straight down, nullifying Dedede's chain grab altogether.
So the lighter characters that fall off actually have a higher stun time than the heavier ones.
Dedede's chaingrab relies on the stun that every character possesses. And it seems like Mario, Luigi, Bowser, Samus, and Donkey Kong have that awkard hitstun time that enables Dedede to do an infinite on them. But to maintain the infinite he needs the D-throw to not be fully stale or else it won't work.
Wafles
Smash Lord
I don't think game mods should be a part of official Smash Lab discussion. But at least we'll finally get some organization down for this whole mash of a game we've got right now.
MuBa
Smash Lord
Of course it should be. The Brawl+ project has gotten very far and it's progressing very well.
But thanks to the hitstun hack, I can safely say that it's the hitstun that actually affects Dedede's ability to chaingrab. Characters that fall have higher hitstun, and with that note they end up having a fall animation. And with characters that have lower hitstun, they don't fall but rather slide.
Adapt
Smash Lord
That's very interesting. Thanks for that. I was trying to figure out why that was happening after a certain knockback speed (~2560 MPH)
Hitstun is the deal. I already knew that lighter characters suffer more than heavies to hitstun. This was designed so they wouldn't be completely screwed over by combos.
M.K
Level 55
As MuBa pointed out, it is imperative that the Brawl + community be implemented into the Smash Lab. Not only could they establish themselves as a serious deviation of the norm, but they would be able to aid the regular Brawl research by means of "mechanic manipulation", or in other words, determine conclusions based on the manipulation of certain factors in the game (such as hitstun, IASA frames, Directional Air Dodge, etc.).
I hope I explained it well...
SCOTU
Smash Hero
hell, i want the hackers in there just so they make a play it frame by frame, or really slow down code lol. Make my job easier.
Sukai
Smash Champion
Long story short, the hacks in brawl can further research, by not only comparing the enhanced (or toned down) features to normal gameplay, but towards their own community in helping it grow and customize it to really suits its position as Brawl+, or even better, a true Melee 2.0.
There was something I noticed when playing with a friend.
My Fox vs his Ness.
Anyway, after an exchange of blows, I went for a forward smash, he went for a down tilt. The forward smash connected, but Fox was also hit by Ness, canceling his forward smash, but instantly afterward I moved into a basic combo.
Of course another base of study, but perhaps this may be grounds for looking into the frames of what could be the least amount of knockback given to a character and how they can react to it/respond to it.
If a visual example is needed, I have a replay of it.
This might be useful for exploiting some of the not-so-mighty attacks given by some characters, to help what attacks can/need to be used and when.
There was something I noticed when playing with a friend.
My Fox vs his Ness.
Anyway, after an exchange of blows, I went for a forward smash, he went for a down tilt. The forward smash connected, but Fox was also hit by Ness, canceling his forward smash, but instantly afterward I moved into a basic combo.
Of course another base of study, but perhaps this may be grounds for looking into the frames of what could be the least amount of knockback given to a character and how they can react to it/respond to it.
If a visual example is needed, I have a replay of it.
This might be useful for exploiting some of the not-so-mighty attacks given by some characters, to help what attacks can/need to be used and when.
Red Arremer
Smash Legend
As long as no Melee vs. Brawl discussion starts out in the Smash Lab, I'm all for having some of the hackers in the Lab.
I mean, I'm not part of it now (hopefully will be, though), but I think a serious project like the Smash Lab (much like the Backrooms) doesn't need any of these "Brawl sucks so much"-people. =P
MuBa
Smash Lord
If it weren't for the hitstun hack no one would have figured out Dedede's CG like I did. Also it would be better to try and NOT to make Brawl+ a Melee 2.0
We're trying to make a more exciting, fluid Brawl game that will HOPEFULLY catch the eyes of Melee and Brawlers and mean SOMETHING in the future.
Lol we're too busy thinking about what codes and variables are perfect for Brawl+ to even discuss such a childish issue.
But do at least try out Brawl+ to see what the unfinished version look like.
Red Arremer
Smash Legend
Sorry, I can't test out Brawl+. I maybe would, if I had the Homebrew Channel and all, but I don't, so meh.
SamuraiPanda
Smash Hero
- Joined
- May 22, 2006
- Messages
- 6,924
I'm still working on a list of people for the first wave, as well as our "mission statement"/plans of things to research. It'll take a bit longer, as I'm still pretty busy IRL as scotu pointed out.
In the meantime, I have another question about D3's CG that can keep this discussion rolling. There have been rumors on the wind that it is possible to SDI his CG to get out of it. Is it possible to SDI his downthrow at all? Of course, the obvious answer would be no, but if its possible then that could really change quite a bit.
In the meantime, I have another question about D3's CG that can keep this discussion rolling. There have been rumors on the wind that it is possible to SDI his CG to get out of it. Is it possible to SDI his downthrow at all? Of course, the obvious answer would be no, but if its possible then that could really change quite a bit.
Pr0phetic
Dodge the bullets!
No, definitely not out of his DThrow period. As for the CG, sadly it isn't =\ I never tapped a button so much in my life to be so helpless.
Oh, take your time man, its worth the wait for the sexy color.
[Edit] - Lag defeats D3s CG btw (Tv and WiFi)
Pr0phetic
Dodge the bullets!
I hope i see what you did there...
Smash DI.
Adapt
Smash Lord
Thanks for the update Panda
MuBa
Smash Lord
If Dedede's CG was Smash DIable then I'm sure people would have made a video about this by now. I've also tested this and I wasn't able to SDI out of his CG.
Red Arremer
Smash Legend
Yep, I tried it, as well. There's no chance in SDIng out of the Chaingrab.
kupo15
Smash Hero
Thats a great assumption about DDD's CG with hitstun. I wish I thought of that when I found that CGs no longer work with the new hitstun 2.0.
I think it would be a great idea to make some of the top working brawl+ ppl in the smash lab esp to discuss things about making brawl+ better since we have been doing extensive testing with it.
And I agree, brawl+ should not be melee 2.0 which means no wavedashing as much as some ppl want it in. Its quite different and overpowered in brawl from my testing anyways...
I think it would be a great idea to make some of the top working brawl+ ppl in the smash lab esp to discuss things about making brawl+ better since we have been doing extensive testing with it.
And I agree, brawl+ should not be melee 2.0 which means no wavedashing as much as some ppl want it in. Its quite different and overpowered in brawl from my testing anyways...
Mmac
Smash Lord
I wonder though if people tried ALL Directions and not just backwards (Can't test right now, by myself at the moment)? However it seems right now that you can't DI because of the set knockback, so it has the properties of something similar such as an Air Grab Break
Red Arremer
Smash Legend
That's exactly what I tried. Due to the set knockback it doesn't really matter in which direction the DI is going. I'd show you videos or image, however, I don't have the proper equipment (yet) to do so.
Though I haven't tried to DI down, now that I think of.
Pr0phetic
Dodge the bullets!
If you try all directions, its still the same. best would probably be down and back(SW), but eh, nothing.
SCOTU
Smash Hero
The waft is a hit which cannot be SDI'd. I have confirmed this through frame by frame viewing of an attempt that should've generated several SDIs. I'd say that if you could SDI it, up would be the way best to escape the cg, but it doesn't really matter.
You should still be able to normal DI the dthrow, but with such small knockback, I imagine the difference isn't very noticable.
I also think it would be neat to find a way to measure knockback angle more accurately, then we could start to examine the total effect of DI on knockback angle.
I also think it would be neat to find a way to measure knockback angle more accurately, then we could start to examine the total effect of DI on knockback angle.
Red Arremer
Smash Legend
I've tried it with all 5 chaingrab victims into all directions now. SDI doesn't work, or, if it works, the change is so minimal that it doesn't change anything at all for the victim, resulting in them not being able to escape the chaingrab anyway. Stale throw doesn't matter, as well.
SCOTU
Smash Hero
you can capture a still frame and measure the angle
M.K
Level 55
It is not possible to SDI out of the chain grab in any direction because King Dedede's grab range is so great that the amount of SDI you would have to work into establishment could not be performed within the time that King Dedede could grab you again.
In other words, the grab would have to be longer and more drawn out for you to have any chance of escaping.
This is why you can escape an inexperienced chain-thrower, because you have the time to smash OUT of the grab range.
Mmac
Smash Lord
My theory is that because Dthrow has no Knockback Growth, it voids the DI Values of the receiver. I don't know if it's a straight value (KBG = DI), or some sort of multiplier (KBG x Something = DI), but my point is, without Knockback Growth, there is no way to DI It.
The best example is an Aerial Grab Break. It has set knockback and isn't determine by Percent. This is something I have been focusing on for months, and I already proved that there is no way you can DI a Aerial Grab Break until the stun
is finished. I wouldn't be surprised if Dedede's is the same case because his Dthrow has the exact same values.
Edit: Oh, it was about CG's, not Infinites
Red Arremer
Smash Legend
That's because Dedede's Down Throw has set knockback. No matter how much % the throwee has, the knockback always is the same - that's the reason why there's an Infinite for Dedede anyway.
Even though Mario, Luigi and Samus all are only barely grabbed, they still cannot SDI out of Dedede's range - no matter in which direction they go (which I tried myself).
Since it's the "*ss waft" which does the knockback, not Dedede's butt himself, as we already found out, this is why there's only 1 frame difference. If the actual throw, not the "waft" would do the knockback, the hitstun would - if I concluded correctly - only be this 1 frame shorter and Luigi, Mario and Samus could get out of Dedede's grab range, thus nulling the chaingrab for those three.
Mmac
Smash Lord
...... You didn't even read my entire post.... did you?
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