The State of Brawl in Japan: 3rd Update 14/02/10

[rathy Aro]

For those who wanted to see a Japanese Zelda:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2BPSq1x-n8

I think the other vids on this guy's channel give REALLY good insight into the japanese metagame. Instead of guessing look at these vids. The vid itself is stupid though. =P

TBH I really don't like it when people group Sheik & Zelda together considering most Sheik players don't touch Zelda and she really in no way makes Sheik any better.

Edit: Hai Drenin!

What? I thought most sheiks use zelda if needed. its not like we transform into zelda every stock, but at least once a set is pretty normal. Even you admitted to using Zelda. >.>

I do think that that tier placement belongs to sheik mostly and not zelda. There's not really much holding the two from the spot especially when they clearly have no good IC rep there. There's a whole region/country.... without good ICs, it could bring a sheik main to tears. =')

Sheik should be keeping fox down on their tier list. o.O They clearly have good sheik rep and no one ***** sheik (aside from ICs). Certainly not marth. I see that matchup as even and I think most sheik mains would give a slight advatage to marth or agree with me.

 

[Flayl]

...What?

I'm talking about America, and I was joking. Get that stick out of your ***, man.

You completely missed the point. Good job.

edit: I'll even explain it to you: You could qualify Masashi's style as "gay", meaning playing gay isn't an American only thing.

 

[Kaffei]

... You just confused the hell out of me. What you just quoted was me saying that all I saw Masashi doing in every video I watched was plank plank plank.

Compare his playstyle to Sagemoon (American Pit), for instance, who uses circle arrows, wing refreshes, and wingdashing all over the place, i.e., flashy stuff.

Yeah because Flashy definitely means more efficient.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

You completely missed the point. Good job.

edit: I'll even explain it to you: You could qualify Masashi's style as "gay", meaning playing gay isn't an American only thing.

And where did I say that no Japanese players could ever play gay ever?

 

[Syde7]

Lol, just watched some Masashi vids, wow, so much planking. He doesn't even do any of Pit's arrow or wing techs. America has much better Pits than that imo.

May have already been addressed, if so- my apologies.

Rampant use of AT's does not automatically equal "better". What is effective is what counts. When I see vids of his pit (Masashi) I see an efficient Pit with very little "wasted" in terms of movements. In essence, he is utilizing the FUNDAMENTALS of the character vastly better than most US Pits I've seen.

I'm no Pit main (or even player), but am speaking from purely an analytical point of view.

 

[rathy Aro]

Just to make it perfectly clear:
http://www.youtube.com/user/wadastin#g/u

Might have some useful info about the japanese metagame.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

No way Jiggs is the worst character in the game. And Japan obviously has no good Sonic players. Get Malcolm over there.

 

[demonictoonlink]

Their list is wrong.
/thread

 

[-Mars-]

I think the other vids on this guy's channel give REALLY good insight into the japanese metagame. Instead of guessing look at these vids. The vid itself is stupid though. =P

What? I thought most sheiks use zelda if needed. its not like we transform into zelda every stock, but at least once a set is pretty normal. Even you admitted to using Zelda. >.>

I do think that that tier placement belongs to sheik mostly and not zelda. There's not really much holding the two from the spot especially when they clearly have no good IC rep there. There's a whole region/country.... without good ICs, it could bring a sheik main to tears. =')

Sheik should be keeping fox down on their tier list. o.O They clearly have good sheik rep and no one ***** sheik (aside from ICs). Certainly not marth. I see that matchup as even and I think most sheik mains would give a slight advatage to marth or agree with me.

I use Zelda because I enjoy playing her. Yet whenever I transform in a serious match it almost always results in me being camped to death and half of my stock eaten away before I can land a KO move. It's matchup dependent but a lot of the time I don't transform because I feel far more comfortable racking up damage and killing at very high percentages than I do putting myself at risk trying to land one of Zelda's KO moves.

I still play Zelda though I was just bringing up the fact that MOST Sheik mains don't use Zelda at all so to categorize them as one character is flawed reasoning.
I was referring to those considered top Sheiks such as Light who don't use Zelda at all.

Marth-Sheik is 45-55 imo.

 

[Zankoku]

There are two ways Japan has been known to build a tier list:

1. Build a matchup chart and add the points up, or

2. Ask the top players for their collective opinions on characters, in order, and add up the numbers.

Pretty obvious that tournament results would play a factor in either case, but I don't think they've ever based a tier list completely on results.

 

[Attila_]

Weeaboo detected

Also i remember kel saying thins like CGs are banned so ICs are low

no infinites are currently banned in any mainstream tournies in japan. including ics cgs, d3 infinites (samus, dk, etc).

So, I have to ask, where is their smashboards equivilent? Basically their largest competative smash site.

http://smacom.so-netsns.jp

although its more like a smash myspace website; you make friends, look at their bulletins, and respond. not an open forum like smashboards. this mean no sbr equivalent, no official tier list or mu figures. everything is spoken about between groups of friends. no the best way to do things, but we gotta live with it.

and you need a japanese phone email address (that can receive mail) so no one outside japan can join. gg.

What are their Match-up Threads like? Any unbelievable matchups?

as stated, they dont have any. any particular mus you want opinions on, ill ask.

A smasher you know creator that tier list? 0_o that doesn't sound very good..

like i said, they dont have an overarching tier list. this one was agreed upon by a group of 5 or 6 smashers all in japan's top 30. there would be a few other lists in circulation, but they are mostly similar (the big differences are still the big differences).

Speaking just between the diff in American vs Ausi: at Genesis Ausi got totaled in crew battles. I watched Vyse's Diddy a lot and he was roughly 6 months behind where the US top Diddy's were at.

please note that australia's one, two and three were not present at the said crew battle. and that was a long time ago anyway...

I doubt it, because the Japanese don't seem to really have any techniques that we don't. Also, the Australian community is on SWF so they know pretty much every technique that the American community does.

yeah things like this... they didnt know samus or captain falcon had infinites on rob... and there is stuff that works the other way round. not necessarily infinites or similar, but tactics and playstyles (i saw a wolf doing some crazy stuff on the ledge that ive never even see JJ do...).

It's silly to attempt to compare the U.S.' metagame to Japan's. Until some of their top players come over here, or vice versa, we can only speculate. Speculation gets us nowhere.

I'd like more details about is this, personally:

Am I wrong to say that the top American players aren't doing this to a great extent?

The OP's comments about Japanese players' "perfect spacing" is an assertion that can't be substantiated right now. A statement about their ability to SDI perhaps could be backed up.

I'm not trying to compare each nations' players to one another. <_<
I'm just here to learn.

havent seen mikehaze anywhere near consistently ds out of tornado, nor m2k consistently sdi upward in blizzard and counter with a dair, making the move very dangerous to use.

You have no idea how rampant Pikachu is running about.

i actually havent seen any yet. doesnt change the fact that fox can take on the top tiers, while he seriously struggles to deal with marth, who actually is everywhere...

 

[Zankoku]

yeah things like this... they didnt know samus or captain falcon had infinites on rob... and there is stuff that works the other way round. not necessarily infinites or similar, but tactics and playstyles (i saw a wolf doing some crazy stuff on the ledge that ive never even see JJ do...).

Wait, what? As far as I know, the infinite on ROB was discovered by InnocentRoads, of Tokyo, Japan.

 

[PhantomX]

You don't know anything, you're from Michigan.

 

[Attila_]

Wait, what? As far as I know, the infinite on ROB was discovered by InnocentRoads, of Tokyo, Japan.

i mentioned it to the guys, and none of them knew it. and they all live and play in tokyo. they knew about the zss one, though.

 

[Zankoku]

Oh, thought you said ZSS in that post, my bad. : P

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Has there even been a single international brawl tournament that has had people outside of NA and Europe getting together? Particurlaly between NA and Japan?

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

You don't know anything, you're from Michigan.

Bro if I was goin' to pound4 I'd $30 MM you for sayin' dat.

The fact that pika is not popular over there like over here, means that their tier lists is no better than ours. Both countries have flawed lists since not every character is represented enough to show off the peak level of their metagame (at least not in tourneys).

 

[Silent Beast]

and you need a japanese phone email address (that can receive mail) so no one outside japan can join. gg.

I know a lot of people have had issues with the whole Japanese email thing, but I was actually able to sign up using my school email address.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Wow, it's really a shame that we equate patriotism to stupidity.

But ignore this and go back on topic.

It is sad, but the pic displayed stupid patriotism, which DOES exist.

Or...they could just be THAT much better than we are. I mean...look at Starcraft's metagame...from my understanding, there's only a handful of regions good enough to compete with the best.

Very VERY unlikely, we're quite simply too large and have too many old melee players, we have to have at least a few good regions.

The picture and the fact that I knew Oni was from Europe gave it away. Plus, I swear nobody is that patriotic here.

I'M that patriotic, probably more, I just don't believe in stupid patriotism

no infinites are currently banned in any mainstream tournies in japan. including ics cgs, d3 infinites (samus, dk, etc).

Good.

http://smacom.so-netsns.jp

although its more like a smash myspace website; you make friends, look at their bulletins, and respond. not an open forum like smashboards. this mean no sbr equivalent, no official tier list or mu figures. everything is spoken about between groups of friends. no the best way to do things, but we gotta live with it.

and you need a japanese phone email address (that can receive mail) so no one outside japan can join. gg.

No way to get one in america, really?

havent seen mikehaze anywhere near consistently ds out of tornado, nor m2k consistently sdi upward in blizzard and counter with a dair, making the move very dangerous to use.

Ok, now that I know that it can be done, that's it I will SDI the tornado every time.

All I gotta worry about is the ftilt.

Same with Blizzard, I like.

 

[CRASHiC]

Why are some people denying the *possibility* that Japan might be better at Smash than us? I mean, other than MvC2 they whoop us, every day. Wong is the only one that can hang with them, and he can't even touch Diago. It happens people. Some countries are better at certain things. Its just how it develops.

 

[VietGeek]

I signed up to SMACOM a while ago...I'm quite sure you no longer need a Japanese cellular phone number to register.

Unless of course, it was changed again within this year (cell phone # requirement was gone starting July/August 2009).

 

[adumbrodeus]

Why are some people denying the *possibility* that Japan might be better at Smash than us? I mean, other than MvC2 they whoop us, every day. Wong is the only one that can hang with them, and he can't even touch Diago. It happens people. Some countries are better at certain things. Its just how it develops.

Not impossible, just unlikely.


We've got a lot more people, and our regions have a lot more contact between each other. It IS unlikely.


As for traditional fighters, obvious reason, they're all quite similar in a lot of respects. So, you develop an amazing community for one, the skills transfer easily.

 

[phi1ny3]

True, it's quite possible that the japanese are scoffing at our tier list for having sonic so high with the occassional person saying, "those americans have a sonic metagame like you wouldn't believe!"


I think it's more likely that we have things to learn from each other.

I feel that this holds very true. I've felt that there are merely more better repped characters in some places than others, which usually generates stronger interest in the metagame of said character (for those who don't believe this statement, go around the Link, Bowser, Jiggly, Zelda, etc. boards, and more often than not there's a lot of dead discussion). I can believe Pit could be better, but by the same coin I look at other characters on their list and think they could be better as well.

 

[LoganW]

Bro if I was goin' to pound4 I'd $30 MM you for sayin' dat.

The fact that pika is not popular over there like over here, means that their tier lists is no better than ours. Both countries have flawed lists since not every character is represented enough to show off the peak level of their metagame (at least not in tourneys).

no you wouldn't

 

[Palpi]

no you wouldn't

yeah he would lose 30$

 

[Attila_]

at least i havent met anyone who'd managed to sign up to the site without a japanese phone. it prompts you to enter a link into your phone that only a phone can access, and proceed that way to open your account. this is what ive heard from other people, and experienced myself. but like it said, its more like myspace than smashboards; its a place for catching up with other smashers, organizing meets, etc. most of the tier list or mu talk happens over msn/chat programs or in person.

 

[II Bolt II]

I'm willing to say that Americans are better than Japan simply because we don't fight with honor. We have evolved our game into the campiest of campiness just to make sure we get the win.. then again, who knows if they camp or not in tourney.. I for sure have never been to one. x_x

 

[Matador]

Ignorant Post of the Night: Beast Coast is better than Japan.

<3's

QFT. We had Fox, Pit and Sheik/Zelda mains before it was what the cool kids were doing.

Edit @ Bolt: Nuuuuu!!! Your edit = my virtual demise

 

[Llumys]

omg fox is soo kawaiii~

 

[PhantomX]

I wouldn't turn down the MM, lol.

I just like to hate on Ankoku b/c it's fun.

 

[ScubaF_ingSteve]

I love wolf's spot over there, does anyone have the name of the best wolf player over there and maybe some videos?

 

[Attila_]

I'm willing to say that Americans are better than Japan simply because we don't fight with honor. We have evolved our game into the campiest of campiness just to make sure we get the win.. then again, who knows if they camp or not in tourney.. I for sure have never been to one. x_x

have you ever seen a japanese pit?

evidently not.

 

[Limeee]

2 questions

1. How is the doubles scene there?

2.How big are the tourneys?

and yes please get some vids :D

EDIT 3: wheres a good place to find japan videos? or a good youtube channel

 

[SothE700k]

I'm willing to say that Americans are better than Japan simply because we don't fight with honor. We have evolved our game into the campiest of campiness just to make sure we get the win.. then again, who knows if they camp or not in tourney.. I for sure have never been to one. x_x

They're worse than us sometimes.
Best Falco in Japan vs Best Snake in Japan. Entire set was full of 10 minute matches EACH. Why? For five minutes, they literally just stood on the opposite sides of the stages throwing grenades and shooting lasers at each other. Once one died because the laser/grenade was too strong and killed them, THAT'S when approaching started. Once the other died, return to the opposite sides of the stage and continue camping.

After watching a good amount of videos, I don't think Japan heard the news: R = Shield.

 

[-Mars-]

General Videos> Japanese Match Video Archive

People need to learn to use search functions.

 

[∫unk]

japanese does some things better and the US does some things better

whose better or not in this moment is irrelevant because there's huge room for improvement on both sides

 

[Attila_]

2 questions

1. How is the doubles scene there?

2.How big are the tourneys?

and yes please get some vids :D

EDIT 3: wheres a good place to find japan videos? or a good youtube channel

1. they dont care for doubles. at all. tourneys are really rare.

2. depends on the tourney. i havent been to any so far, because they barely run in tokyo, ive just been to house meets of 8 or so people. normal tourneys run upto a 100 people, although not too often.

 

[Jupz]

1. What do they feel about Pits matchups with the top tiers? (just in general )

2. What do they feel about Foxes matchups with the top tiers? (just in general )

3. How do they play these characters? (as in, playstyle, what moves are overused, etc)

4. How do they play wolf?

Thanks a lot shmot

 

[Attila_]

1. What do they feel about Pits matchups with the top tiers? (just in general )

2. What do they feel about Foxes matchups with the top tiers? (just in general )

3. How do they play these characters? (as in, playstyle, what moves are overused, etc)

4. How do they play wolf?

Thanks a lot shmot

1. All winnable matchups, but gw is pretty difficult. basically pit outcamps them all from the ledge. and approaches are met with ledge hop uair. although i havent met any pit players, so ill hold off this discussion for now.

2. pikachu/shiek are unwinnable, but both rarely make it through the first few round of a tournament, so they dont really have to be worried about too much. he has some issues with marth too, but its approximately 60:40-65:35, and can be won. mainly he has an advantage on snake, which is incredibly important in tournament play. outcamps, and combo like a beast at low percents.

3. pit i explained already; he camps like crazy. i am currently unaware of any ledge grab rules lower than 75 (which is freakin heaps) so he can get away with this. fox camps with sh laser, then normally approaches at low percents with nair to try and grab/continue a string. dair at higher percents to get the kill. nair is actually a really amazing move; from what ive seen, western foxes use dair way more than they should.

4. camp camp camp. hop around with lasers, until they come close, then push them away again with bair. thats the gist of it. super boring. although one guy did some crazy ledge cancelling stuff ive never seen before, but i got no video footage.

youre welcome.

 

[Ishiey]

does anyone have the name of the best wolf player over there and maybe some videos?

Thisthisthisthis. And stuff about those "weird ledge techs" that they do, among any other Wolf techs.

EDIT: Ninja'd