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The State of Brawl in Japan: 3rd Update 14/02/10

CaliburChamp

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The japanese play no different than the rest of the world. If they come up with a tier list right away, its not going to be accurate. The only thing that is different, is that they play the game with different rules, more stages are banned, which can help certain characters do much better, if all the stages are the same.
 

adumbrodeus

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The japanese play no different than the rest of the world. If they come up with a tier list right away, its not going to be accurate. The only thing that is different, is that they play the game with different rules, more stages are banned, which can help certain characters do much better, if all the stages are the same.
I disagree, culture plays a huge role in a variety of ways.


1. What characters are played. Perfect example, Sonic is a great deal more popular in the US then in Japan, so US players put the time and effort into creating a viable lower mid-tier metagame for him. The Japanese don't like him, therefore lack the dedication.

2. What skills are concentrated on, in japan there seems to be an emphasis on execution owing to a culture that emphasizes perfection (note japanese suicide rates and note the reasons). Americans tend to not have that skill but make up for it with better abilities to read opponents and utilize this.



Honestly, number 2 is probably most important for C tier and up, ICs for example, are our ICs better or is their anti-IC metagame better? For the first, the lesser emphasis on reading your opponents makes a grab more difficult. On the other hand, impeccible spacing and SDI make it harder to get the grab. My opinion is that spacing is the major reason, but this could be interpreted in a variety of ways.
 

Zankoku

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2. What skills are concentrated on, in japan there seems to be an emphasis on execution owing to a culture that emphasizes perfection (note japanese suicide rates and note the reasons). Americans tend to not have that skill but make up for it with better abilities to read opponents and utilize this.
Search "yamada niceplay" on Youtube.
 

CaliburChamp

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I disagree, culture plays a huge role in a variety of ways.


1. What characters are played. Perfect example, Sonic is a great deal more popular in the US then in Japan, so US players put the time and effort into creating a viable lower mid-tier metagame for him. The Japanese don't like him, therefore lack the dedication.

2. What skills are concentrated on, in japan there seems to be an emphasis on execution owing to a culture that emphasizes perfection (note japanese suicide rates and note the reasons). Americans tend to not have that skill but make up for it with better abilities to read opponents and utilize this.



Honestly, number 2 is probably most important for C tier and up, ICs for example, are our ICs better or is their anti-IC metagame better? For the first, the lesser emphasis on reading your opponents makes a grab more difficult. On the other hand, impeccible spacing and SDI make it harder to get the grab. My opinion is that spacing is the major reason, but this could be interpreted in a variety of ways.
Sounds like stereo typing to me. American's have the same amount of skill as the Japanese players or maybe even better. In japanese culture they put a lot of effort into working and schooling over there, therefore, they do not have enough time to play brawl. American's don't have as much time demanding school schedules and work schedules, for the most part. That's why the american's are more polished in playing this game.
 

Attila_

The artist formerly known as 'shmot'
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Sounds like stereo typing to me. American's have the same amount of skill as the Japanese players or maybe even better. In japanese culture they put a lot of effort into working and schooling over there, therefore, they do not have enough time to play brawl. American's don't have as much time demanding school schedules and work schedules, for the most part. That's why the american's are more polished in playing this game.
dont make assumptions based on stereotypes, please. most of the players i know either dont work or study, or do very little of either. and thats factual.
 

culexus・wau

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How do they Play Luc and DK in Japan?

I kinda wondered how they play Luc overseas and why DK was so low there :>
 

CT Chia

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Very interesting OP. I'd love to see some up to date videos of them. Can you ask them what they think of my Waluigi project? :) (threads in the workshop)
 

-Ran

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How about this? Ask them [The Japanese players] to create a play list on youtube of their 'Best of' matches. We could do the same and have a cultural exchange. What we really need is someone that is bilingual to arbitrate this. Also, if Japan would host a national tournament with a large enough pot, I'm sure that at least some of our most talented smashers would go.

PS: If both players have bad spacing, the winning player appears to have the best. >>
 

phi1ny3

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How do they Play Luc and DK in Japan?

I kinda wondered how they play Luc overseas and why DK was so low there :>
I've seen some of them (learned how to type Lucario in japanese to do this lol)
They're okay, kinda bland though. I kind of think they need more mixup power, but you know, Lucario's lucario.

Ran Iji's idea is a good one, maybe we could use Samurai Panda/Innocent Road as ambassadors or something lol.
 
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Very interesting OP. I'd love to see some up to date videos of them. Can you ask them what they think of my Waluigi project? :) (threads in the workshop)
That does bring up an interesting point. Are there actually any major brawl hack projects going on overseas anywhere, or are they all local stuff. A few twix here and there. Without access to a major database like SWF, I would think that any brawl projects like that are actually rather small. And typically held within a local community instead of open access like here in SWF.
 

phi1ny3

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tbh good Japanese Lucarios are hard to come by, they're usually stupidly predictable, but I'd need guidance on "who's the best" lucario, since I've only had my pool of japanese youtube videos to see from.
smot, would you happen to know who's regarded as the best Lucario there? Because the best videos I've found are more of this caliber:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bt9HCq10V30&translated=1
which imho if this is the best, they need to exploit fair and nair more.
 

Nixernator

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Have you played any ZSS's over there Attila?
I'm actually totally interested with japanese ZSS's, I can sense crazy comboes possibly. Also can you explain the spacing/use of Fox's Nair in Japan a bit more?
Cheers mate.
 

Attila_

The artist formerly known as 'shmot'
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How do they Play Luc and DK in Japan?

I kinda wondered how they play Luc overseas and why DK was so low there :>
sorry, i havent seen either. ill keep my eyes peeled. although im pretty sure dk struggles with both camp foxes and pits, so it might explain why he's so low.

Very interesting OP. I'd love to see some up to date videos of them. Can you ask them what they think of my Waluigi project? :) (threads in the workshop)
i havent even seen texture hacks here, so i doubt any real use of them. although i will ask.

How about this? Ask them [The Japanese players] to create a play list on youtube of their 'Best of' matches. We could do the same and have a cultural exchange. What we really need is someone that is bilingual to arbitrate this. Also, if Japan would host a national tournament with a large enough pot, I'm sure that at least some of our most talented smashers would go.

PS: If both players have bad spacing, the winning player appears to have the best. >>
fantastic idea. that being said, they already know most of our best players (m2k, ally, lain, etc) and have seen how they play. but i will make the proposition.

That does bring up an interesting point. Are there actually any major brawl hack projects going on overseas anywhere, or are they all local stuff. A few twix here and there. Without access to a major database like SWF, I would think that any brawl projects like that are actually rather small. And typically held within a local community instead of open access like here in SWF.
as i said to cs, there doesnt seem to be.

Have you played any ZSS's over there Attila?
I'm actually totally interested with japanese ZSS's, I can sense crazy comboes possibly. Also can you explain the spacing/use of Fox's Nair in Japan a bit more?
Cheers mate.
foxes nair goes for ages (punish spotdodges and airdodges), cancels very quickly, has very little knockback (sourspot), comes out in 4 frames and has decent hitstun. it links combos and strings mainly when ff, cause you can follow with a grab or whatever and try it again. things like that.

i saw one zss, but i didnt think too much of him. i won fairly easily despite really not knowing the mu. ill try and find you a good one.
 

adumbrodeus

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Sounds like stereo typing to me. American's have the same amount of skill as the Japanese players or maybe even better. In japanese culture they put a lot of effort into working and schooling over there, therefore, they do not have enough time to play brawl. American's don't have as much time demanding school schedules and work schedules, for the most part. That's why the american's are more polished in playing this game.
This is taking cultural truisms and applying it to people's attitudes. Stereotypes develop from those truisms, so it's more cultural psychology then anything else.
 

#HBC | ZoZo

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Agree with the list, except for peach and zss (higher) :<

and ic and pika and diddy and pit is a tad lower : O


this list sux : D
 

Ledger_Damayn

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Yeah because Flashy definitely means more efficient.
Watch his videos, he doesn't do it just to be flashy, he applies them when they are useful. But regardless, I was mainly just continuing with this sentiment because people are spewing their guts about how "flashy" Japanese players are and I have really yet to see it.
 

adumbrodeus

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Watch his videos, he doesn't do it just to be flashy, he applies them when they are useful. But regardless, I was mainly just continuing with this sentiment because people are spewing their guts about how "flashy" Japanese players are and I have really yet to see it.
The thing is, just because you apply flashy techs efficiently doesn't mean there aren't people who apply basic techs more efficiently and therefore is better.


Remember, M2K>Silent Wolf.
 

Gamegenie222

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Nice read man only wish we can get their tier list more official like ours in the states and isn't Ganon suppose to be lower and Jiggs suppose to be higher?
 

Gamegenie222

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Nice read man only wish we can get their tier list more official like ours in the states and isn't Ganon suppose to be lower and Jiggs suppose to be higher?
I also want JP video's? the only one's i have seen is Masashi's Pit and he *****.
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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Japanese Lucario's are too predictable/aren't using moves correctly. Why would you throw out a Fair if your opponent was that far away from you?
 

napZzz

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whats funny to me is how everyone is calling the japanese flashy. I keep up with a youtube user ssbmania1 is his link to his channel I think who uploads japanese tourney matches and friendlies and i've always thought they were just as "gay" as american players if not worse lol. Noone really does anything flashy, they just play different and do different things and for some reason people are assuming that since its not our way its some sort of slashy playstyle.

If anything the japanese are more basic and do what it takes to win matches.

Anyone who disagrees probably hasn't kept up with or seen very videos of them lol
 

phi1ny3

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Japanese Lucario's are being overly flashy.
They approach when they could camp at higher percents, since AS at higher percents becomes an overall better projectile in terms of outcamping some characters and increasing in size, damage, and knockback.
They use mixups that are riskier, like trying to frame trap with dsmash.
I do have to admit that they use their full hop vertical zoning a lot more than their American counterparts, which is both good and bad.
They really like uair, which I think is because it gives the appearance of a dramatic height change in character before coming down with dair, which I guess helps in terms of "mindgames".

I think the characters that tend to play more "campy" there from what I've seen are Falco, Pit, and Fox, and even then, depends on how you view what's campy or not.
 

AlMoStLeGeNdArY

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whats funny to me is how everyone is calling the japanese flashy. I keep up with a youtube user ssbmania1 is his link to his channel I think who uploads japanese tourney matches and friendlies and i've always thought they were just as "gay" as american players if not worse lol. Noone really does anything flashy, they just play different and do different things and for some reason people are assuming that since its not our way its some sort of slashy playstyle.

If anything the japanese are more basic and do what it takes to win matches.

Anyone who disagrees probably hasn't kept up with or seen very videos of them lol
I wouldn't say that no one does anything flashy. I've seen disk play and he's pretty flashy maybe it was just because of his opponent being bad but he was doing things that just wouldn't work normally.
 

phi1ny3

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In other words this thread causes a lot of misunderstood generalizations about everyone, including this statement.
I iz magic.
 

Kinzer

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Anyway... Shmot, have you heard of a Sonic player named RATS over there?

I'm not going to make you give him an interview, but can you at least tell him that we (we being, I guess, Sonic players from USA or whatever) said "hi"?
 

Astartes

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Im am really confused why Ganon is at the top of F tier. everything he does is so easy to punish. also the whole fox thing confuses me. some of our players should head over there and see what is up. i would love if the smash community became a little more international.
 

Dominic

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Ice climbers placing on japan tier list makes me lol bad. If you are not MK, you are bound to get grabbed at least once if not twice in a game.
you don't understand swordgard

"Ice climbers... When you're as perfect as they are, you don't get grabbed. Perfect spacing and auto-cancelling, and you can slowly chip Nana away until there is only Popo left. They don't rate Ics very highly because they don't really have any grab setups, so they can really only get a grab if the opponent makes a mistake."
 

Ledger_Damayn

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you don't understand swordgard

"Ice climbers... When you're as perfect as they are, you don't get grabbed. Perfect spacing and auto-cancelling, and you can slowly chip Nana away until there is only Popo left. They don't rate Ics very highly because they don't really have any grab setups, so they can really only get a grab if the opponent makes a mistake."
I said it before, and I'll say it again. Being Asian is not a freaking superpower. There is no real reason why the top players in Japan should be head and shoulders above the top players in America. They evidently play differently. "Better" or "worse" don't make sense in this context since the metagames are so different, one clearly needs to play differently to win in that scene.

If they were really perfect, matches would time out every match because they would predict and perfect shield every possible approach. In reality, such things as traps and mindgames do exist, and there are several situations in which IC's have a very good chance of scoring a grab if played correctly.
 
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