"The Triforce of Knowledge" Ganon's Match-Up Guide: Character Review, Kirby.

[Xiahou Dun]

I can't even pretend to give half a crap about a number Koskinator, especially within a few posts of the beginning of the discussion. How about we actually discuss the matchup itself? The number is a product of the matchup discussion NOT the matchup discussion itself.

As for the other guy. I can't be bothered to talk about Sonic's recovery. So I just copied the post of some other guy I saw a few minutes ago talking about it.

Sonic's recovery isn't just his UpB.

The thing is, Sonic can recover from virtually anywhere, has a very irregular recovery pattern, invincibility frames, a Uair thats nigh impossible to outprioritize with a huge hitbox above and to the sides of it, and can attack out of his recovery. He can recover from the the side, above, or below extremely safely. The two arguable weaknesses are that he doesn't sweetspot the ledge, which isnt even really a weakness with his huge vertical gain, and the fact that Uair gives him a tiny verticaly boost as well. The thind about Sonics recovery is that you actually need know how to use it well to not get pwned.

Unlike many chars, Sonic doesn't have to recover in the same pattern all the time(usually diagonaly towards stage). He can choose to spinshot back to stage for a quick horizontal recover, he can use SideB which covers a huge horizontal distance, and doesnt even waste his second jump, allowing him to go under most every competitive stage. He can wall jump too. I personaly choose to usually recover from below, as I believe its safest. Now you may say that Sonic can be grab gimped, but that won't happen if you're smart enough to use Uair as you recover. Its hitbox is too disjointed to allow you to be grabbed. If you get grab gimped, its your fault. If he's wasted his second jump and is at risk of being edgehogged, Sonic can footstool jump. If he just cant reach the edge after using his second jump, a rare thing indeed, he can use homing attack to recover.

Not to mention he has virtually perfect momentum cancelling for surviving KOs by using a SideB/DownB after an fair.

/end Recovery rant =P

Ganon can certainly kill Sonic, he's got truckloads of power. But you're not going to gimp him. Of course it's "Possible" but it will rarely ever happen. And almost never between good players, it's definately a low enough chance to not be worth mentioning in a matchup discussion. Sonic's recovery just plain isn't vulnerasble at all.

 

[Chis]

I always wanted to ask this. Are the ratios in the OP correct? 10:90, 30:70, 35:75, Do that many of the cast own Gannondorf that much?

 

[Koskinator]

Sonic cant kill a good Ganon until like, 190%. Retreating thunderstorms are going to **** spin dash approaches. Everytime you AC dair or airdodge to the ground, its a free flame choke dtilt. Sonic isn't hard, you just have to play smart and patiently, something all ganon mains are accustomed to.

 

[stRIP]

I always wanted to ask this. Are the ratios in the OP correct? 10:90, 30:70, 35:75, Do that many of the cast own Gannondorf that much?

....FFFFFFUUUUUUUU-

Yes ganon actually has a ton of bad matchups..

 

[Xiahou Dun]

Sonic cant kill a good Ganon until like, 190%.

Hells to the yes. Ganon is hard to kill. Don't forget gimping though. It's not the be all and end all of the matchup but Ganon is among the easier to gimp people and Sonic is a god gimper. But yes a large amount of the time it's going to be hard to kill Ganon

spin dash approaches.

lololololololololol. Let's move on...

Everytime you AC dair or airdodge to the ground, its a free flame choke dtilt.

Very true. AC Dair should only be used to run away from Ganon here. Airdodge to the ground from what. When would a Sonic be doing that?

 

[Squirrely]

The chart on the first page needs to be cleaned and updated. Lots of blank spaces to be filled and several numbers there that I'm not sure one. Wario, Kirby and Luigi should all be harder than listed I think. Though I don't think we've discussed Wario yet.

Back to Sonic, and I've already given my two cents as per custom within the first couple posts of a discussion beginning, but I still feel it's a fairly even match-up.
Kind of sad since if Sonic doesn't have a big advantage over Ganon, who the hell does he have an advantage over and how. Anyways.

Ganon is never going to grab Sonic. But this doesn't matter since Ganon should never be concentrating on trying to grab anyone anyways. Sonic will be grabbing Ganon whenever Ganon is not stomping or u-air-ing. This can be a problem if grabbed near an edge, obviously (don't ever get grabbed near the edge by any of the cast, this is a given), since Ganon has a recovery deadzone and is easily gimped. Using the spring to gimp doesn't work very well since it just knocks the target a tin bit off to the side and slightly up, as I recall anyways. The thing to watch out for is when Sonic comes out to get you himself. U-air can get him out of your face but sometimes, if hits trade, Ganon is gimped anyways. Just try to use good judgment on dodging and attacking with appropriate moves and spacing for an optimal outcome.
I've already said not to try gimping Sonic since his recovery more than makes up for any distance gimped. Kill him. Stomp smash and tilt if he's off the edge.

On stage, is a patience test for Ganon and Sonic. I know I'm like the 30th person to point it out, but there's a reason for it. Ganon can not throw out laggy moves or he WILL get punished for it. Not punished hard, but those punishments add up. Stomping is your friend. It will get Sonic in kill percentages in no time. I'd almost avoid choking all together. It's just difficult to land. Obviously use it if you see a chance, but don't throw them out and assume he'll run into it or something. Sonics are often pro at baiting themselves. Focus on avoiding grabs and shielding those spin attacks. Be aware that the spin attacks can cancel into a myriad of other moves and try to familiarize yourself with what turns into what under what circumstances. I think most of Ganon's attacks clank with spin dash (notable exceptions being stomp, f-smash and aerial down-b) which is annoying when Ganon's moves are so slow. I recommend just waiting until the spin attack things are done before punishing. You can take like 4 times as many attacks as Sonic before rolling over and you probably will. But you should be able to get your licks in too.

In summary, as Ganon, play it smart and don't get frustrated about being hit 10 times before you can do anything. You can make it up in no time if you know when to hit. They'll be just as frustrated when you double stomp -> f-smash off the edge -> kill or otherwise hurt. Be very aware of what could be coming your way when you get knocked off the stage. It could save your life.

This match-up is often quite close in my experience. Possibly 45:55 (Sonic) or 50:50 (my gut instinct).

 

[Xiahou Dun]

Focus on avoiding grabs and shielding those spin attacks. Be aware that the spin attacks can cancel into a myriad of other moves and try to familiarize yourself with what turns into what under what circumstances. I think most of Ganon's attacks clank with spin dash (notable exceptions being stomp, f-smash and aerial down-b) which is annoying when Ganon's moves are so slow. I recommend just waiting until the spin attack things are done before punishing.

Don't get too comfortable with shielding every spin attack it works for a lot of spin variations but they can cancel into grabs too.

 

[Squirrely]

I'm pretty sure I mentioned it in my first contributive post:

I think Sonic can cancel their spin dash into a grab if they jump into you and you're shielding, so make sure to drop the shield if they're blooping in from above while in spin dash mode and punish with an aerial, preferably with u-air.

I was just trying not to repeat myself too much.

 

[Xiahou Dun]

I'm pretty sure I mentioned it in my first contributive post:

Well then it's good you know already. Just had to point it out as you were giving advice with a sort of "Always shield spin-dashes" tone.

 

[Kinzer]

Hmm...

...Looks like I'm too late to join in on the shindig, but I can say this.

It's 50:50 because Ganon can make our faces die, but Sonic is so fast he can get in and out of Ganon's lair in a split second.

So if you can't see an annology in there, I mean just play patiently and learn the plasytyle of the individiual Sonic player (We don't have one person yet who has completely mastered Sonic in that aspect... though we try to come close), and you should do fine.

 

[Chis]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=190510&page=155

I'll stick to 60:40.

 

[Tenki]

Against Sonic, Choke>Dtilt and Choke>iDA are guaranteed, as is Dair>Usmash at 0%. Keep your DA fresh so you can kill Sonic at 90% from a choke. Besides that, I don't have enough experience in the matchup to contribute.

I think 90% is pushing it. I'm pretty sure I've eaten a few fresh DA's before and lived up to like, 110%s.

Does that include DI towards Ganon and F-air to break momentum? I'm pretty sure I live longer than that ._.; I'll test it in a few mins or so and get back to you guys on that.

It's no worse than 50:50.

I think so too.

I think Sonic can spring out of dair > u-smash.

------

I just dont see how Ganon is supposed to get a hit in. Sonic can cancel any of his approaches @ any time. Provoking an attack to punish shouldn't be too hard.

No, he can't.

Can Sonic cancel a missed F-air? ;o

Sonic can cancel any of his spindash approaches, if we're to really call them approaches in the first place, since we almost always only use spindash to bait stuff or punish lag (reaction/ending/starting/internet lag).

>__>

Spring FROM underneath Ganon when he does his shorthop dair... see what happens

that is funny, i'll admit, lol.

-------

Basically, here you have two punishment characters who are constantly baiting each other into moves.

Sonic's not completely safe, and Ganondorf can pull punishment for sloppy moves. On the flip side, Ganondorf's not completely laggy, and he can and will land hits. Sonic's aerial mobility (weaving in and out) isn't the greatest, so there are the openings that Ganon can take advantage of.

 

[Ussi]

Basically, here you have two punishment characters who are constantly baiting each other into moves.

brawl is baiting and punishing and CGs/infinites in its entirety.

 

[Koskinator]

This matchup ALMOST might even be 55:45 in Ganons favour because we can flame choke out of anything to do with spin dash.

 

[stRIP]

This matchup ALMOST might even be 55:45 in Ganons favour because we can flame choke out of anything to do with spin dash.

ADVANTAGEZ0RSS

i came.

 

[JayBee]

Sonic can appraoch Ganon easier, but any form of predictability will get hammered for massive damage. And Ganon has sweet setups as well. Sonic can control the ground against him well anyways.

Spin dashes as an appraoch aren't safe agaisnt anyone (with out massive fakes to soften them up) but ganon has an answer to nearly every option sonic has in that stance, and there isn't muc sonic can do. However, the moment sonic abandons his spins and uses his run, the ball game changes, because he can defend and counter much easily. And needless to say, If gannon is knocked off the stage against a sonic, it should be lights out for him, while Ganon can't do much in the edgegaurding department by comparison. And if he's down a stock, the threat of Ganoncides are negated.

the best way i beilve for ganon to fight sonic is to try to slowly advance with aerials and the threat of murder choke. A good ganon has sick combos, and once a sonic sees that, he'll have no choice but to be careful. But once a sonic gets in on a ganon... by god, if he avoids dair and spots the airdodges there isn't much Ganon can do but DI and hope he gets out.

Sonic vs Ganon: 55:45

If sonic gets in, the match becomes alot easier, but getting it is risky, and getting daired in any situation is demoralizing. lol

Ganon for steak tier. lol

 

[Xiahou Dun]

I think 90% is pushing it. I'm pretty sure I've eaten a few fresh DA's before and lived up to like, 110%s.

Aye I survived one at "Whatever percentage I would have be for a fresh Dash Attack to leave me at 127%" either they tested with no DI or maybe Dash Attack has some Luigi's Nair style Sweetspot if you hit with the very start of the hitbox after a Flame Choke I was unaware of which is massively powerful. :/

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Aye I survived one at "Whatever percentage I would have be for a fresh Dash Attack to leave me at 127%" either they tested with no DI or maybe Dash Attack has some Luigi's Nair style Sweetspot if you hit with the very start of the hitbox after a Flame Choke I was unaware of which is massively powerful. :/

No, there's a sweetspot in dash attack. Though, there's basically none (or not) in iDA out of gerudo, meaning that the flame choke to dash attack combo is always sweetspotted.

 

[Tenki]

No, there's a sweetspot in dash attack. Though, there's basically none (or not) in iDA out of gerudo, meaning that the flame choke to dash attack combo is always sweetspotted.

I've tested it without DI (CPU on control, no input) and Sonic definitely doesn't die until a fresh flame choke is landed at 98%.

The iDA that kills Sonic hits him at 107% and leaves him at 122% when he star KO's.

ok?

And the sweetspot dash attack that guarantees a death on Sonic despite F-air momentum slowing is 133%.


oh, and this was tested on Smashville's main platform.

>_>


---------------

either way, flamechoke > iDA is a really trivial thing to have to talk about.

You're far better off doing some player-based tech-prediction and nailing an F-air in the face instead.


It kills alot earlier >__>

 

[Ant1]

Sonic cant kill a good Ganon until like, 190%. Retreating thunderstorms are going to **** spin dash approaches. Everytime you AC dair or airdodge to the ground, its a free flame choke dtilt. Sonic isn't hard, you just have to play smart and patiently, something all ganon mains are accustomed to.

Hello all i am Djbrowny's brother, first time posting here.I have a fair bit of experience with Ganon and tourny's in general so im no noob despite my join date. Ok enough about me.

From experience Sonic can kill Ganon at a lot lower percentages then u said, with b-air, u-air and f-smash. When i play Ganon vs my brother's sonic i don't think i've ever gotten to 190%.
Now on this matchup i would say it is in sonic's favour due to lot's of experience vs him, but it's close. Around 55-45. Stage doesn't matter a lot imo. Sonic on Frigate orpheon ***** Ganon, but u just ban that stage and he loses his stage advantage.

And btw sonic never recovers low, what moves does ganon have the send him low lol. F-tilt does slightly but it's not like ganon can jump very far/high to d-air him.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Hello all i am Djbrowny's brother, first time posting here.I have a fair bit of experience with Ganon and tourny's in general so im no noob despite my join date. Ok enough about me.

From experience Sonic can kill Ganon at a lot lower percentages then u said, with b-air, u-air and f-smash. When i play Ganon vs my brother's sonic i don't think i've ever gotten to 190%.
Now on this matchup i would say it is in sonic's favour due to lot's of experience vs him, but it's close. Around 55-45. Stage doesn't matter a lot imo. Sonic on Frigate orpheon ***** Ganon, but u just ban that stage and he loses his stage advantage.

And btw sonic never recovers low, what moves does ganon have the send him low lol. F-tilt does slightly but it's not like ganon can jump very far/high to d-air him.

Ganon averagely lives near his 140%s against Sonic, 190% was way to much to declare Kosk.

 

[Tenki]

Sonic can recover low, out of choice. lol

Also, I was messing around and barely pulled this off in training mode, with just me and two controllers -

Ganon Up-B > Sonic buffered U-air (first hit) > Ganon up-B > Sonic buffered U-air (first hit) > ... repeat.

XD

 

[Kinzer]

I find it ironic how Kojin said "ball game" when we run, yet we aren't IN a ball.

...I'm sorry, I'm really bored when I join too late to help discuss matchups unless a person is being persistant about something that to me might seem off...

... I can at least welcome ant onto Smashboards... meee...

... Yeah, PLEASE give me something to do here guys. >.>

 

[A2ZOMG]

You gotta show me how you do this matchup Kosk, because I just hate Sonic so much.

With Ganondorf, it can be annoyingly difficult to punish some of Sonic's stuff consistently. Well, if you call a Homing Attack, U-air. And U-air a lot when he jumps around and it will protect you from his air game as long as you call him right.

But seriously, **** hedgehog is so hard to chase down. And he can punish and gimp you . You're one of the few characters he's actually able to edgeguard decently because you're so slow offstage. <_<

At least you do survive pretty long if you DI well. I guess one of the saving graces for me is the fact I sometimes live past 200% against Sonic if I can avoid his F-smash.

Seriously though Kosk...tell me what you do against a good Sonic that doesn't randomly run into SH-D-airs and charged F-smashes. Yeah, a lot of Sonics inexperienced in the matchup seem to do that. <_<

 

[Ant1]

Well one thing u can do is when sonic spin dash's u, shield it then immediately go for a b-air, i can get my brother a lot with those. All i can say is don't do any laggy moves like f-tilt, sonic will just shield grab u out of it. I go for a fair bit of f-air with ganon and they tend to pay off most of the time.
Don't approach sonic with a dash attack! He will always know it's coming even if it's the standing dash attack thing, it's so predictable and leads into grabs and whatnot. Yet i do it all the time

 

[Orange_Soda_Man]

I have a hard time responding to a Usmash > Ftilt control game from Gannon. I can't spinshot over it, there's a strict timing on the powershield > grab because of how lagless Usmash seems to be and how quick Ftilt comes out.

Then again, camping in a matchup with no projectiles seems kinda' lol.

Well one thing u can do is when sonic spin dash's u

why is he spin dashing? Whenever I play against a ganon, if I were to SDR I'd eat their Dsmash.

Or I'd SDR > SDJ > HA. But I get punished for doing that from time to time with powershield > Uair/Fair.

 

[Koskinator]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oe3XZAbBWP0&feature=channel_page

Thats what I do in that matchup.

 

[Browny]

Holy is a really bad example of a Sonic. He plays like people did back in early brawl with almost no grabs, spindash as his only approach, no asc/spinshot/sideb cancels and doesnt bait anything, he just runs in and gets owned over and over again. That video is worth nothing for this matchup discussion.

 

[JayBee]

@koskinatooooooooor

lol that was a bad sonic. that's failsause on a plate of fake steak. if you lost to him then i would have banned you from brawl. he doesn't run much. that's auto fail for sonic. he's proof that there are still sonics that dont go on smashboards.com...

I'm not great at wifi, but if you want, you can play me. win or loss, you should be able to see what a sonic is supposed to do. i like your ganon though. what do you say?

 

[Ray_Kalm]

@koskinatooooooooor

lol that was a bad sonic. that's failsause on a plate of fake steak. if you lost to him then i would have banned you from brawl. he doesn't run much. that's auto fail for sonic. he's proof that there are still sonics that dont go on smashboards.com...

I'm not great at wifi, but if you want, you can play me. win or loss, you should be able to see what a sonic is supposed to do. i like your ganon though. what do you say?

Do you mind if I take his place? Koskinator doesn't have his Wii at the moment.

 

[JayBee]

sure. when do you want to do it?

edit: found your youuuuuuuuuuutuuuuuuuube lol

 

[Ray_Kalm]

sure. when do you want to do it?

edit: found your youuuuuuuuuuutuuuuuuuube lol

Well, does 5:00pm Gmt -5 sound okay to you? That's the only time I'm available.

 

[JayBee]

lol what is that EST?

 

[Ray_Kalm]

lol what is that EST?

Actually, forget that. I'll be on brawl in about 30 minutes or less.

 

[JayBee]

much better idea. ill be waiting and your FC is on my wii already.

 

[Squirrely]

So how'd those games go...

 

[The BlackChrimson]

...Being a Sonic main, would it beironic that Ganon is my second?
I can't pull off all the tricks, but I like to think I'm not that bad. (Samus would've been my second had it not been that they reduced her launch poser and missle capability)
Simple over tossing and spike; basic combos and such. I like to end with a kamikazi style end to my matches (because it's epic).

Honstely, I think Sonic and Ganondorf are on a closer level than Sonic and Boswer; Ganon also has a greater advantage over Sonic/(Boweser) because of his sideB long reach of a grab; it can catch Sonic in mid-attack if done proporly (or porrly depending on which end of the pain shtick you're on).
Like Sonic, it all comes down to timing...

Anyway...
I'm curious too: How did those rounds go?

 

[Squirrely]

A little input on Samus:

Samus has pretty much complete control over Ganon if he gets knocked off the edge. A z-air or two is all it takes to keep him from getting back if knocked to medium or far range off-stage and when close to the stage, he is easily spiked/hogged or otherwise riddled with bombs/b-airs/n-airs.

Ganon can't do too much against a recovering Samus. I suggest a u-air gimp once they get within range of z-air grappling the stage followed by an edgehog for the incoming up-b. Their up-b is tricky to hog since it continuously hurts until it descends and it lingers at the top, kind of like ike's. It's also tricky to spike since it launches up so fast.

On stage Samus has an edge over Ganon is most aspects. Samus's f-air has fairly decent priority being fire, though it can be out-ranged with a good Ganon f-air. Not applicable if the Samus short-hops though, which is often. Speaking of short-hopping Samus, z-air will be the most annoying factoring in this fight on stage too. Once again, there's little Ganon can do except shield or dodge through it, either in the air or ground. Dash attack can also sneak under it if you're close enough to his Samus with it, otherwise you'll get punished. Missiles and charge shots can be annoying as well. Shield, spot dodge, you know the drill.

Once Ganon is within clobbering range of Samus, clobber and don't let up. The best place you want to keep Samus is right above you or above you and in front of you. Within u-smash, u-air and f-air range. D-tilt is pretty effective at getting her there as is a stomp if you can get one in. I find stomps a bit tricky to pull off since Samus can instantly up-b you out of a shield, and that just puts Ganon in a crap position. Also, watch out for Samus to do a falling u-air to up-b. Once you get caught in it, it's like 30% on Ganon, and that's never welcome. Try to smash out of up-b whenever you get caught in it. Choking leads to a garunteed jab on Samus.

Oh yeah, be very aware of Samus's grab. It's ranged to you should expect a grab to come out of every shielded attack where you can't be up-b'd. Spot dodge and punish, though it's easier said then done.

The thing to focus on in this fights is z-air. Always be aware of your options should it be in a position to hit you. Do that and the fight becomes much easier/winnable. It's not as hard a fight as I once thought it was. Maybe 30:70.

 

[Z1GMA]

30-70 are WAY to good odds for Ganon.

I'd go with 20-80 or 25-75...... 23-77 sounds perfect imo, but it's too picky. lol

 

[Player-3]

so i hear your discussing falcon....

heres the input your gonna get from 98% of the falcon boards:
BUT GANONS SO BIG, AND EASY TO KNEE!
60/40 falcons favor!

naw
ganons a ***** to fight..
dair ****s falcon over horribly,.....
falcon is heavy vertically, but since most of ganons kill moves are horizontal i believe hes ****ed in that sense...
the free uair on ganon from his upb for falcon doesnt help that much, its 13% with no knockback... and well be over 90% which is like... one hit from a kill for ganon anyways

and then theres Dtilt.

**** that move

50/50 ... someone else will explain falcons advantages im too lazy