The Unity Ruleset: Discussion

[Zankoku]

Do you mean as in relationships with new people by future bridges? If not I don't understand...

Do we want to discard all possibility of Nintendo ever recognizing the competitive scene for the remainder of Brawl and for any future Smash iterations?

Making the LGL without properly testing the rule, making it global without properly testing or even knowing how that would work.

Any and all claims for objectionality>Subectionality. See: Stock, Timer.

The removal of items without proper testing.

The choice of stock without proper testing.

The removal of some stages without proper testing.

The use of a definition for stalling that does not serve any purpose, and therefore cannot serve its own. (Unless it has no purpose)

This enough?

So you picked a bunch of examples from Brawl alone? And, among it all, rules that do not require any modification of the original game whatsoever?

I'm not even going to address LGL, since if you're going to repeatedly ignore my stance on it I might as well ignore your repeated use of it as an example.

 

[Arcansi]

Do we want to discard all possibility of Nintendo ever recognizing the competitive scene for the remainder of Brawl and for any future Smash iterations?

You don't know how nintendo would react to this. At all. And you shouldn't assume you do. Unless you have logical proof that you failed to provide.

So you picked a bunch of examples from Brawl alone? And, among it all, rules that do not require any modification of the original game whatsoever?

EDIT: You thought I meant ALL competitive games. Sorry that was a bit vague. I only meant brawl.
Those would seem to be the only relevant things.

Are you saying you want examples that require hacking?

I'm not even going to address LGL, since if you're going to repeatedly ignore my stance on it I might as well ignore your repeated use of it as an example.

Your funny. You think you can ignore my argument because your 'stance' on it is illogical and opinionated.

My argument stands.

 

[AlphaZealot]

When the scene relies on people bringing their Wii's to tournaments, there is no way we can make hacks the competitive standard.

 

[Arcansi]

Many people have their wii hacked already, and I'm sure you could convince others to do so.

It would be doable. It would be difficult, but doable.

The statement it is impossible is false. 100%

 

[Zankoku]

Your funny. You think you can ignore my argument because your 'stance' on it is illogical and opinionated.

My argument stands.

I think I can ignore an argument made that justifies one wrong with another, yes. You can even improve on that by bringing up Meta Knight's ban so I can just outright Ignore-List you, thus eliminating me from discussion.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Actually, it is 100% false. I for one would never hack my wii, and it is used frequently at tournaments, so by default you cannot reach full-hack tournaments on a universal scale.

Even so, and ignoring stupid 'technicality' arguments, since TO's want to maximize the number Wii's they can get a tournament, they do not want to create a rule that would put restrictions on the equipment brought to tournaments. It would create an (unnecessary) barrier to entry in the tournament scene to require hacked Wiis. Really, this is obvious, so I'm not sure why we are even discussing it.

Picture a big circle of Wii's.
Picture a smaller circle of Wii's inside that circle.

Don't pretend a TO, or the community as a whole, would ever, should ever, or could ever even consider using the smaller circle on a large scale.

 

[CT Chia]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=313949

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Sometimes I post things slightly unreasonable.

Most of my posts are extremely constructed, your just prone to disliking them because I go against the status quo consistently and aggressively.

There is a reason your posts are against the status quo and everyone is disagreeing with you. No, don't bring up some ad populum bull**** because I'm not trying to say that your arguments are poor because everyone disagrees, I'm saying everyone disagrees because your arguments are poor.

 

[Ghostbone]

Actually, it is 100% false. I for one would never hack my wii, and it is used frequently at tournaments, so by default you cannot reach full-hack tournaments on a universal scale.

Even so, and ignoring stupid 'technicality' arguments, since TO's want to maximize the number Wii's they can get a tournament, they do not want to create a rule that would put restrictions on the equipment brought to tournaments. It would create an (unnecessary) barrier to entry in the tournament scene to require hacked Wiis. Really, this is obvious, so I'm not sure why we are even discussing it.

Picture a big circle of Wii's.
Picture a smaller circle of Wii's inside that circle.

Don't pretend a TO, or the community as a whole, would ever, should ever, or could ever even consider using the smaller circle on a large scale.

You don't need to hack your wii to play mods people......

You need an SD card, that's it.

 

[DeLux]

Sure, we could hack our Wii's or make a modded version of the game.

But then we really wouldn't be playing Brawl anymore and it would defeat the purpose of the URS being a SSBB regulating ruleset.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

How is it any different to putting in rules like the IDC ban?

 

[DeLux]

Because it's a rule that regulates a tactic. It doesn't remove it from the game. You can definitely perform IDC when it's banned. It would be illegal for obvious reasons. But it's still an option, albeit an illegal one.

A hacked/modded version is something else entirely

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I see no reason to draw that distinction in regards to competitive play.

 

[DeLux]

Inherently when we go from regulating to modding, we go from playing one game to playing a similar but distinctly different game.

Thus why on a semantic level, it's called a mod, for the modifications it entails. An IDC ban doesn't modify the mechanics of the game. A hack on tripping does.

I'm not sure how you can argue they are the same.

 

[Cassio]

While technically not the same some might argue the effect is, even if the severity of one is greater than the other.

 

[DeLux]

Right, but the point is, having a "ruleset" and "modding" things at the same time would be incoherent.

If you have to make a rule for it, you might as well mod it out if the competitive standard is a mod. The creation of the ruleset is indicative of the non-existence of the option of modding. Thus, modding defeats the purpose of the ruleset in its entirety.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

When we add a rule that takes away IDC, IDC is effectively not a part of the game anymore. We are playing Brawl - IDC

If we add a No Tripping hack, we are playing Brawl - Tripping.

 

[Ghostbone]

Yea but with mods we ought to try to balance the game the best we can (and end up with Balanced Brawl basically, or something similar).

The problem is we hold tournaments for Brawl...regulated Brawl but Brawl nonetheless .

 

[Arcansi]

There is a reason your posts are against the status quo and everyone is disagreeing with you. No, don't bring up some ad populum bull**** because I'm not trying to say that your arguments are poor because everyone disagrees, I'm saying everyone disagrees because your arguments are poor.

I would love to agree with you, except people do agree with me from time to time.

They just don't seem to stick around, or have really bad arguments. Most of mine are logically sound, refrenced by the fact that my thread is still up, past a close.

Right, but the point is, having a "ruleset" and "modding" things at the same time would be incoherent.

If you have to make a rule for it, you might as well mod it out if the competitive standard is a mod. The creation of the ruleset is indicative of the non-existence of the option of modding. Thus, modding defeats the purpose of the ruleset in its entirety.

So what your saying is...modding is competitively superior to a ruleset?

Yea but with mods we ought to try to balance the game the best we can (and end up with Balanced Brawl basically, or something similar).

The problem is we hold tournaments for Brawl...regulated Brawl but Brawl nonetheless .

Regulated Brawl != Brawl.

Just like a patch essentially means a different game, or a ruleset change.

 

[Zankoku]

lol, are you really defending your logic with the fact that I'm lenient? Short of obvious spam, it usually takes a lot for me to believe a thread should be locked. I've left several of Jebus' threads open, but that doesn't mean I agree with most or even any of his arguments, or that I even think his logic works.

Also, forgot to respond to this:

You don't know how nintendo would react to this. At all. And you shouldn't assume you do. Unless you have logical proof that you failed to provide.

I already noted that Nintendo's only acknowledgement towards Wii hacks has been to delete them with every firmware update. Use common sense here - if Nintendo has done nothing but try to deter people from hacking Wiis, can any reaction from them be expected to be positive if we for some reason attempted to shift hacked Brawl to the standard?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Arcansi: Hacked Wiis will never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever EVER be the standard equipment to bring. It's completely irrelevant what "logical arguments" you bring up: the fact in of itself that you are saying "Hey, we should make a hacked version the tournament standard" makes it illogical.

Do you really think MLG would have picked up Brawl if the standard was a hacked version? No, they wouldn't have. They wouldn't have been able to endorse it.

Do you really think you would have as many people playing as there are now if you made it so every Wii had to be hacked? The answer is no, we would have less people. Why? Tournaments would run even slower due to a lower number of Wiis. You would have claims that somebody's hack on their Wii is every so slightly different. People would refuse to bring a hacked version, forcing you to have both hacked and nonhacked versions if you wanted tournament to end at a half decent time. It would be a terrible situation. There would be less players, and slower tournaments.

It's not a "patch". Patches are made by the company that owns the game. Don't try to use semantics to make it sound better. Balanced Brawl is a nifty little project that is at best, an occasional little side event at small local tournaments, taking a back seat to the main event. Thats all hacked versions of Brawl will ever be.

Your "brilliant" topic about banning infinities/CGs/w/e isn't there because it's a good argument, it's up for the same reason the "MK is Banned" topic is up: forum management. All of the arguments about MK go to the MK topic, all of the scrubs who want to ban infinities and CGs go to your topic instead of making multiples of the same thing. It's a filter topic, nothing more.

Your ideas suck. Quit while you're not completely behind.

 

[Strong Badam]

As a Brawl modifier myself, it's truth that you can't expect people to bring modded Wii's to tournament. Tournaments have been fighting to have enough setups to keep a tournament running smoothly since like 2003, and requiring much more than "Have the game, unlock everything" is just begging to make the problem worse.

Moving on:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=13653060#post13653060
Can the URC address this issue? I think it's pretty relevant. Perhaps if Norfair & Meta Knight are unfair, so are Meteor Smashes?

 

[ElDominio]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=13653060#post13653060

lolwat 10charmongers

 

[CT Chia]

We are live: http://www.twitch.tv/vvv_chibosempai

 

[AlphaZealot]

Meteor smashes as they existed in Melee do not exist in Brawl (or maybe they do? There is no way to know for sure since the "bonus" feature of Melee was removed for Brawl).

Regardless, in my entire time playing Brawl, I've never once felt any type of spike or "meteor smash" (just a 'special' type of spike in Melee that was actually worse than a normal spike, since it was 'meteor recoverable' and hence, could be recovered from before reglar hit lag finished ala regular spikes) in Brawl was a real issue that ever needed addressing.

 

[Arcansi]

lol, are you really defending your logic with the fact that I'm lenient? Short of obvious spam, it usually takes a lot for me to believe a thread should be locked. I've left several of Jebus' threads open, but that doesn't mean I agree with most or even any of his arguments, or that I even think his logic works.

If you don't think my logic works, argue it. Your already doing so, so yeah. I've also been told that my posts are overall constructive by 2 people already. This is well over enough for me.

I already noted that Nintendo's only acknowledgement towards Wii hacks has been to delete them with every firmware update. Use common sense here - if Nintendo has done nothing but try to deter people from hacking Wiis, can any reaction from them be expected to be positive if we for some reason attempted to shift hacked Brawl to the standard?

The hacks that allow people to mod brawl are also the ones that allow them to get games for free. How can you assume they wouldn't like hacked brawl if the real reason they kept removing hacks was because of the ability to get games illegally? This is a much better reason for them to do so, and hacking brawl isn't illegal.

Arcansi: Hacked Wiis will never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever EVER be the standard equipment to bring. It's completely irrelevant what "logical arguments" you bring up: the fact in of itself that you are saying "Hey, we should make a hacked version the tournament standard" makes it illogical.

How is it illogical? If the version is more competitive (garunteed) and reasonably doable (very arguable).

Do you really think MLG would have picked up Brawl if the standard was a hacked version? No, they wouldn't have. They wouldn't have been able to endorse it.

Why is this relevant?

Do you really think you would have as many people playing as there are now if you made it so every Wii had to be hacked? The answer is no, we would have less people. Why? Tournaments would run even slower due to a lower number of Wiis. You would have claims that somebody's hack on their Wii is every so slightly different. People would refuse to bring a hacked version, forcing you to have both hacked and nonhacked versions if you wanted tournament to end at a half decent time. It would be a terrible situation. There would be less players, and slower tournaments.

This is baseless speculation, except for the thing about less players. But this isn't relevant unless it's a large number.

It's not a "patch". Patches are made by the company that owns the game. Don't try to use semantics to make it sound better. Balanced Brawl is a nifty little project that is at best, an occasional little side event at small local tournaments, taking a back seat to the main event. Thats all hacked versions of Brawl will ever be.

You don't understand....essentially, we are the company that owns the game. We aren't playing brawl anymore, we're playing our own version.

Your "brilliant" topic about banning infinities/CGs/w/e isn't there because it's a good argument, it's up for the same reason the "MK is Banned" topic is up: forum management. All of the arguments about MK go to the MK topic, all of the scrubs who want to ban infinities and CGs go to your topic instead of making multiples of the same thing. It's a filter topic, nothing more.

Baseless Speculation.

Your ideas suck. Quit while you're not completely behind.

Why are you insulting me?

 

[Conviction]

Okay, stop right there....

"Why is this relevant?"

You can't be serious can you?

MLG

Major League Gaming.

In other words big publicity. Which means more people see smash. Which means more people will decide if they want to play or not. Which in turns makes the community grow. If one of the biggest (if not the biggest) gaming endorsers wouldn't rep us because we modded our game compared to not modding it like we've have had it, how do you NOT see this being relevant?

Stop being so individualistic, this about the community. MLG was great for community support and publicity. That's the relevancy.

Want to know why this is illogical?

Because any company with a sponsoring powers worth anything don't support mods that the original company, Nintendo is this case, won't support itself.

Got it memorized?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Buddy, we don't OWN Brawl at all. We own the RIGHT to play it. Learn how the EULA works in general. Also, Nintendo's EULA specifically states that any third party modification of the system(which includes putting third party stuff, A.K.A. our hacks) on the memory card is modifying what the actual use of it.

You're right that hacking in general isn't illegal, but hacking the NINTENDO Wii is. Whether or not they would attempt to catch us isn't the point.

The second we advertise hacked Wii's and a hacked game, Nintendo, who utterly hate Hacks, which is PROVEN by their updates which DISABLE HACKS, they have every right to shut down our events. Since they'll be well known, they can indeed do this.

Hacking was never an option as a standard. You have fun with your version, and we'll have fun playing the legal copy we payed for the right to play. Can we get Jack Kaiser or whatever his name is in here to explain the EULA?

We are not saying hacks aren't cool, fun, or whatever. We're saying that your interpretation that they're legal is a pure lie. Especially with Nintendo. You have to realize that you do not have any right to do it, and you're choosing to void the warranty and break the law the second you put in the hack. You're putting third party software not approved by Nintendo in, which is what they deem illegal.

http://www.nintendo.com/consumer/systems/wii/en_na/privacyEULA.jsp Read it for yourself. BTW, you know why Datel has not made an official Wii Cheat Device? They can't. It's illegal for them to do so since it's putting third party software not approved by Nintendo. Unlike with the older systems, where it was allowed, they rewrote their EULA to eliminate this problem.

It doesn't matter whether you use the Smashstack method, directly hack the Wii, using a Wii Memory Card(also protected by the policy since you're putting third party software into the Wii by using this), or whatever. Not an option like you're making it.

 

[CT Chia]

Live Show uploaded http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_lMAiy7PJw

 

[Ghostbone]

Regulated Brawl != Brawl.

Just like a patch essentially means a different game, or a ruleset change.

No, having a ruleset is completely different from a 'patch' or a different game.

Meteor smashes as they existed in Melee do not exist in Brawl (or maybe they do? There is no way to know for sure since the "bonus" feature of Melee was removed for Brawl).

Regardless, in my entire time playing Brawl, I've never once felt any type of spike or "meteor smash" (just a 'special' type of spike in Melee that was actually worse than a normal spike, since it was 'meteor recoverable' and hence, could be recovered from before reglar hit lag finished ala regular spikes) in Brawl was a real issue that ever needed addressing.

Meteor smashes definitely exist in Brawl, a meteor smash is any move you can meteor cancel (which in Brawl is any move between the angles of 250 and 290 I believe? Someone correct me)
Spikes don't exist in Brawl, you're probably getting the terms confused.
A spike is a move you can't meteor cancel.

 

[Strong Badam]

Meteor smashes as they existed in Melee do not exist in Brawl (or maybe they do? There is no way to know for sure since the "bonus" feature of Melee was removed for Brawl).

Regardless, in my entire time playing Brawl, I've never once felt any type of spike or "meteor smash" (just a 'special' type of spike in Melee that was actually worse than a normal spike, since it was 'meteor recoverable' and hence, could be recovered from before reglar hit lag finished ala regular spikes) in Brawl was a real issue that ever needed addressing.

Meteor Cancel window in Brawl is 25 frames after exiting Hitlag. Since you can air-dodge before that, it's usually not noticed.
Brawl Meteors are specifically 230-310° btw.

 

[Ghostbone]

Oh ok 230-310
It's also worth mentioning some characters (Charizard, MK, Pit and Wolf iirc) must wait longer (Wolf is like 60 frames lol >.>), and some characters can wait less (ZSS, Ivysaur, Olimar)

 

[Strong Badam]

Oh wow. Looks like the attribute at 0x05C in the files is the meteor cancel window. Neat.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Meteor smashes as they existed in Melee do not exist in Brawl (or maybe they do? There is no way to know for sure since the "bonus" feature of Melee was removed for Brawl).

Regardless, in my entire time playing Brawl, I've never once felt any type of spike or "meteor smash" (just a 'special' type of spike in Melee that was actually worse than a normal spike, since it was 'meteor recoverable' and hence, could be recovered from before reglar hit lag finished ala regular spikes) in Brawl was a real issue that ever needed addressing.

He's trolling, even if Loxo isn't. The "If MK and Norfair are unfair" bit really should've given it away...

Why is this relevant?

I'm going to keep repeating this until people get it:

GNES WON $12,500 AT ONE. ****ING. TOURNAMENT!

That's more than most people make in 3 months! That's more than some people make in a ****ing year! That's a year of a ****ty part-time McJob! From winning one ****ing tournament! At the same time as Gnes was winning A BALL-SHATTERING $12,500, Brawl was getting at least some major exposure towards other gaming communities, a wonderful chance to make the community larger and stronger.

 

[infiniteV115]

Bold, italics AND underline
Like a boss

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Bold, italics AND underline
Like a boss

*****
you gonna complain about my formatting
imma remind you that Gnes won

12,500
****ING
Dollars
AT ONE TOURNAMENT



(Postng whily drink: it's a art)

 

[DMG]

WHILY DRINK

A/N ART

I WILL KEEP DOING THIS IF YOU KEEP POSTING

heuheheuheuheuhhhhuehuehuehueue

 

[DRDN]

If your going to post while drunk you should just go to the MI board it usually has a drunk or 2 in it

 

[infiniteV115]

Bold
Italics
Underline
Like a boss

Edit: Holy **** at this being post 10399
inb4>9000joke

 

[Zankoku]

Cut out the spam, please.