The Unity Ruleset: Discussion

[ぱみゅ]

If you just lowered the LGL, you can just lower the infinite limit.
Having it at 300% is pretty much like allowing 80 Ledgegrabs.

 

[John12346]

ESAM, your first and third criteria for nerfing ledgegrabbing tactics can also be applied to infinites, imo...

 

[WindMajor]

You guys have to remember that this ISN'T the most competitive ruleset! The BBR tried that before and got laughed at. The BBRRC is making a ruleset that is fair and appealing to everybody (in the US) so that we can have one ruleset going so that we are, as the title of the ruleset infers, unified. It is unfortunate when people in a certain region play on certain stages, then go to a tournament in a different region and have a different set of rules (LGLs and stages mostly) so the BBRRC is trying to unify everybody to use the same list. It isn't like we made this and this is it forever. There will be updates.

I think I understand where you're getting at.

Basically, the point of the BBRRC isn't to try to make the most competitively sound ruleset, it's to create a ruleset that can appeal to the largest amount of people. Making a standardized ruleset that appeals to a large amount of players helps because it attracts more players to tournaments, which will then make community look larger and more unified than it does with a standard ruleset that only appeals to a small sub-set of people. Having a large, unified, and tight-knit community makes the Smash community look more appealing to the media and sponsors, and through that, it will help grow the community by spreading the word of competitive Smash to new players, as well as having sponsors that can provide support with creating an overall better tournament experience.

If I'm not mistaken, this is where the Smash Ambassador program comes in, right? They are the individuals who are going to reach out and sell this to sponsors and the media. I would like to be corrected if I'm wrong.

Anyways, the members of the BBRRC acknowledge that it is important to create a competitively sound ruleset, but at the same time, they want to create a ruleset that looks pretty for others who want to support the game and the community. This is where the whole sacrifice thing comes in, in which both sides are going to have to budge a bit to satisfy a greater goal. Using LGLs as an example, a competitively sound ruleset would be a ruleset that didn't include LGLs, but a ruleset without LGLs is not appealing to a large crowd of people, which will effectively turn them off for that tournament, so the guys in the BBRRC will have to bump heads to look for middle ground.



Did I get that right, ESAM?

 

[xDD-Master]

Using LGLs as an example, a competitively sound ruleset would be a ruleset that didn't include LGLs

Woot o,o?

 

[WindMajor]

Well yeah, the LGL is a flimsy rule, but we use it because it's generally received well, and it's easy to enforce.

 

[sunshade]

There is a difference between a few +4 MUs and everybody being a +4 MU. If MK's ledgegrabs weren't limited, he would probably be banned (This was never a discussion, this is my personal opinion, don't apply it to all of the BBRRC). If something is THAT degenerative to the metagame (MK solidly winning every MU) he would be banned. Why do you think CGs past 300% are banned? It makes it so that one grab =/= game. ICs could theoretically end up just grab releasing and dash grabbing with the other, then b-throwing at the edge.

Anyway, we nerf ledgegrabs because 1. The community IN GENERAL despises ledgecamping to a really high degree (IE Will vs RB), 2. It CAN be a problem in the metagame when it comes to Metaknight, and 3. It is more entertaining to watch for sponsors if somebody doesn't have a 17% lead and runs to the ledge and stays there for the whole match.

You guys have to remember that this ISN'T the most competitive ruleset! The BBR tried that before and got laughed at. The BBRRC is making a ruleset that is fair and appealing to everybody (in the US) so that we can have one ruleset going so that we are, as the title of the ruleset infers, unified. It is unfortunate when people in a certain region play on certain stages, then go to a tournament in a different region and have a different set of rules (LGLs and stages mostly) so the BBRRC is trying to unify everybody to use the same list. It isn't like we made this and this is it forever. There will be updates.

If what twinkie said is how you (or the BBRRC) feel then I understand but your reasons given for why infinites are different than planking are false as both reasons 1 and 3 apply to infinites and reason 2 is only justification for a metaknight specific LGL.

 

[xDD-Master]

Well yeah, the LGL is a flimsy rule, but we use it because it's generally received well, and it's easy to enforce.

I don't know what your definition of competitive is, but if you are serious with that, I guess, your competitively sounding ruleset wouldn't include anything other then settings and set format x'D

 

[sunshade]

I don't know what your definition of competitive is, but if you are serious with that, I guess, your competitively sounding ruleset wouldn't include anything other then settings and set format x'D

In a competitive environment the general precedent set by essentially every game other than smash, or pokemon, is that you do not ban something less its absolutely broken.

A ledge grab limit makes the statement that ledge play is universally broken and that any character using ledge play as a tactic is going to be preforming a broken action. This is obviously false in all cases except a few (those few almost exclusively being metaknight centric).

Considering however that metaknight's planking is the only broken planking out there and planking is no different than any other tactic at a fundamental level, the logical choice is to ban him for his unbeatable zoning on the ledge or (if banning is not an option) create a metaknight specific ledge grab limit.

 

[xDD-Master]

Yeah, I know, but he said:

Using LGLs as an example, a competitively sound ruleset would be a ruleset that didn't include LGLs

Well yeah, the LGL is a flimsy rule, but we use it because it's generally received well, and it's easy to enforce.

He refered to the LGL itself, not to LGL on every other character.
Thats why I was asking about --->HIS<--- understanding of the word competitive.

 

[WindMajor]

Oh, well competitive to me is about competition. If something competitive, that means that there is a lot of competition involved. If something isn't competitive, that means that there is no competition. When I refer to the LGLs not being competitively sound, I refer to the fact that I think the rule is severely flawed, and that it's not suitable for competition. You can still compete with the rule enforced, which means that the game is still competitive with the rule in place, but if a match ever meets with the flaws of this rule, then the game becomes unfair.

 

[Yikarur]

LGL is necessary so that the game is playable on a competitive level.
LGL is the best idea to nerf a game destroying tactic like that.
I'm happy that the LGL is enforced almost everywhere

 

[sunshade]

LGL is necessary so that the game is playable on a competitive level.
LGL is the best idea to nerf a game destroying tactic like that.
I'm happy that the LGL is enforced almost everywhere

No its not.
Planking is not game destroying, metaknight planking is.
I will admit it makes the game more fun to watch, so I guess I agree.

 

[Yikarur]

if everyone decides to plank with whatever character (except the character is really garbage) the result would be close to the same. Only MKs Planking is BROKEN, but the influence of other characters planking is way too extreme to keep it in.
This "only ban whats broken" mentality is really garbage and not applicable to a game which's purpose it is to have fun without competition. "I want everyone to feel like a winner ~Sakurai"

we could allow items with this mentality. There are A LOT items that aren't broken and Items allowed would increase the overall depth of the game, but we still exclude them for obvious reasons.

 

[Tesh]

Wtf @ ESAM's reasoning. You guys have a universal LGL because its no fun to watch ledge camping? Do you think it would be fun to watch YOU grab a Fox player 3 times and win a game? Is it fun to watch M2K spam tornado and beat Ally on Brinstar? How about DDD vs Bowser? Fun to watch? If you guys want sponsors to have a fun time watching the game under your ruleset, you have a long way to go.

As for the community in general hating ledge camping, the community in general also hates metaknight. Can we ban him too based solely on that? Ignoring that point for a moment, the community hates MK/GnW/Pit ledge camping generally. Never seen a player complain about how Ganondorf gayed them on the ledge or how a Snake player grabbed the ledge 20 times in a row.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Twinkie, you are right in your explanation.

@Tesh

I agree that it isn't the most entertaining, but remember...infinites affect all of...90 MUs total (including ICs/Diddy). Planking affects way more than that (35 with MK, 25 for pit/G&W, and like 7 for basically everybody else sans a few people). If there was no LGL, we would see MANY more Will vs RB scenarios. One that went under the radar was me vs Hylian. I got a lead and went to the ledge immediately. I won with like 5 minutes left becuase he had to come off the level and I edgeguarded him. I could've easily timed him out, I got hit all of 5 times, and I did it in multiple friendlies vs him (He couldn't really touch me).

If we draw the line at "OK, MK, Pikachu, Pit, G&W, DK, and Jigglypuff have a LGL of 35" who is to say that one other character can't do it? It is way too subjective, and it is much easier to just have a blanket statement with one exception since MK is clearly better than everybody else at planking.

It is much harder to do the same thing for infinites. What is an infinite? One that you can do forever? D3s small step CG isn't an infinite since he can only do it to the end of the stage. Pikachu's D-throw CGs aren't an infinite since they end around death %. Marth/Charizard GR CGing ness/lucas aren't infinite since you end up going to the ledge.

So please, get your head out of your *** and look at what we have to do.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Okay, so long as you know that it isn't the most competitive ruleset, then I'm fine. I do hope that the starter stage list does get increased, however, especially before CoT5 in June.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

there should be side event with the japanese ruleset

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Yeah, you Pit mains would love that.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

what? because you we main pit? where'd you get that idea?

 

[John12346]

ESAM, the point Tesh was trying to make is that a sponsor probably wouldn't want to see

Ledgedrop -> Uair -> Thunder(or w/e Pika's planking tactic is)

for a whole match probably as much as they wouldn't want to see

Dthrow -> Dthrow -> Dthrow -> Dthrow -> Dthrow -> Dthrow -> Dthrow -> Dthrow -> Dthrow -> Dthrow -> Dthrow -> Dthrow -> Usmash(or however Pika finishes off his CG on Fox)

for three lives straight.

 

[ErikG]

Honestly, the chaingrab is more pleasurable to watch than planking. With planking, your general goal is to avoid conflict or allow your opponent to put themselves in a terrible position. With chain-grabbing, there is interaction between characters that lead to the chain-grab.

 

[etecoon]

you need a lead to plank, there WAS interaction between characters that lead to the planking

 

[BSP]

ESAM, the point Tesh was trying to make is that a sponsor probably wouldn't want to see

Ledgedrop -> Uair -> Thunder(or w/e Pika's planking tactic is)

for a whole match probably as much as they wouldn't want to see

Dthrow -> Dthrow -> Dthrow -> Dthrow -> Dthrow -> Dthrow -> Dthrow -> Dthrow -> Dthrow -> Dthrow -> Dthrow -> Dthrow -> Usmash(or however Pika finishes off his CG on Fox)

for three lives straight.

I wouldn't mind the CG personally, and at least it's much faster than 8 minutes on the ledge

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

they are both gay, just one is done onstage and the other is done on the ledge. however, not getting grabbed by pika is totally plausible in spacie MUs not to mention you can still make a comeback after the cg is done (referance dehf beating kprime at MLG with falco). however, you can't stop someone from going to a ledge. hell im a pit main, but im glad that there is a universal lgl. without it, i would need practically no skill to win against over half the cast easy and would probably drop brawl due to it being incredibly boring to play money or not. however with an lgl the game is actually fun to play and while even though infinites and extended CGs are gay, in the end they are completely avoidable and thus not as broken as most people make them out to be. but that's all just my opinion.

 

[Alphicans]

I don't think DEHF played Esam in MLG, but I could be wrong... Although I am fairly sure it was Kprime.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

oh did i put esam? let me edit that. i always mix up the pika names my bad

 

[Rockstar]

Meta-Knight for bottom tier anyone? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlqxHPLenP0

 

[DeLux]

Has there been discussion on the coaching rule yet?

 

[Orion*]

I love the new fad of argument on SWF

"it's subjective"

I don't see the problem with subjective things though lmao

 

[Life]

Meta-Knight for bottom tier anyone? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlqxHPLenP0

0_o

MY MK is better than that and I'm the guy named InferiorityComplex. o_0

I love the new fad of argument on SWF

"it's subjective"

I don't see the problem with subjective things though lmao

Usually the problem stems from the fact that claiming subjectivity allows you to choose an objectively worse option without any real way to argue back.

 

[Tesh]

Pretty sure once sponsors start to understand the game a little, they won't find metaknight so interesting to watch either. Are you building the game for the players or for the sponsors? Because the only reason anyone wants sponsors is....for the players. Do you really want to lock yourself into a ruleset like this? Once you get sponsors with this ruleset, they aren't just going to change it away from what they originally liked.

I just think "do it to get sponsors" is a horrible arguement. You guys should be making a good ruleset for the community, not trying to appeal to people that might one day be interested. If its worth liking, someone will like it.

And whats with this "practicality" argument the BBRRC keeps throwing around? You guys ARE practicality. All of the major TOs are in your organization and anything you toss out will be tried a few times because anyone puts in actual effort to act against you.

"Its just not practical to remove Brinstar from the stagelist"

*BBRRC (dozens of the best TOs) removes Brinstar from stagelist*

Done like Dinner.

 

[xDD-Master]

Best ruleset is the one that's best for the community.

Sponsors and happy players = good for the community
Planking = uninteresting for sponsors = unhappy players = bad for the community

The difference between infinites and planking is easy:
planking - defensive
infinites - offensive

People sure dislike extreme defensive tactics, while they support an offensive playstyle.
Defensive tactics are boring to watch, while offensive aren't.

You can do something to not get infinited.
You can't do anything to not get planked.

(Don't say: Get the lead. You could get the lead, and he will plank you anyway until 7:30, then he starts fighting... even worse if you fight against a pit )

 

[Tesh]

Planking with Pit is far less gay and far less defensive than doing an infinite with DDD. You can fight a planking pit. You can read him, you can still PLAY. He is just using his options to minimize risk while still attacking you. Thats exactly what infinites do. They minimize the risk of getting countered to 0 while still attacking their opponent.

Getting the lead back from metaknight or pit while they are planking is much more likely to getting out of DDDs infinite.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

my pit, got the plank you see?
your char, got to come get me.
my pit, tricky as hell,
your pit, on the ledge like a girl
my pit, gay and campy.
your pit, dumb and spammy
my pit, is fun onstage.
your pit's, why lgls are made
*chorus*
come on we got to let the world know,
that our pit's, aint just fo sho.
we gonna shoot spam camp and hey
p.s, we play pit's that plank!

(yes this is indeed a parody of the song MY DI CK)

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Wow.

How old are you, seriously? >_>

 

[xDD-Master]

Planking with Pit is far less gay and far less defensive than doing an infinite with DDD. You can fight a planking pit. You can read him, you can still PLAY. He is just using his options to minimize risk while still attacking you. Thats exactly what infinites do. They minimize the risk of getting countered to 0 while still attacking their opponent.

Getting the lead back from metaknight or pit while they are planking is much more likely to getting out of DDDs infinite.

The situation you described is a somewhat wrong comparison. You can't compare Planking & Infiniting. But you can compare planking with grabbing. Planking actually is the action / the cause. What happens when you try to fight against it?: You probably get gimped.
Grabbing is the action / the cause, when you get grabbed: You probably get infinited.

The correct comparison must be: "Beeing in an infinite AFTER fighting getting grabbed" is the same like "doing an up-b but can't get back on stage / edge AFTER fighting planking"

While infinites indeed minimize the risk of getting countered to 0, successful gimps do this as well.

And now think back about planking & grabbing.

Planking - Defensive -> YOU have to do something to stop someone from planking
Grabbing - Offensive -> Your oppenant has to grab you (!) YOU need to stop him from doing so

Throwing out grabs gives your oppenant openings, which can be exploided.

Going out to stop someone planking, just leads in you beeing at a very high risk / very low reward situation, while it is a very low risk situation for the other.

To avoid getting grabbed you need to be careful, indeed, but it's not the same like "you have to go into a high risk situation".

I hope it's understandable, English still isn't my first language :/
I somehow feel so bad discussing in English
(Eeeh, I forgot that I wanted to stop discussing in this thread ... xD well stupid boringness )

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Just like to point out that 50% of the time when Dedede grabs, it's defensive.

Same with Olimar, they generally retreat and cover their backs with a pivot grab.

The other 50% is, of course, punishing a mistake with a dash grab.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

I wish other BBRRC members were here to back me up instead of me having to do this by myself ;_; I don't know everybody's reasons...

The main thing in my opinion is that it is easier to limit planking than it is to limit infinites, because the line for LGLs is the number, yet the line for infinites are...one infinite over the other.

 

[Yikarur]

the Problem with planking is the re-gain of invinciblity over and over again while being close to unattackable inbetween without getting in the most horrible position in the game. (and even then it's hard to succeed)
@xDD good job wasting your time with that post.
I would refuse to argue with people that throw off that bad kind of comparison and seem to not understand the difference. and if you explain the difference they argue even more or call it double standard or whatever.
it's pointless mostly

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Yikarur, you have shown time and time again that you don't understand the concept of comparison. Don't try and make it seem like the players pointing out double standards are in the wrong just because of your twisted view.