The Unofficial Offical MLG Ruleset Discussion

[Kitamerby]

Most terrible ruleset I have ever seen.

I love how Team Attack is apparently off. :V

Also, on the subject of wiimotes, this needed reposting.

So none of you know who I am, but let me try to explain why wiimotes should be allowed (mind you I have worked with Bluetooth technology as an intern).

First off to explain how the wiimote bluetooth works: When you sync (or as i will refer to it pair) your wiimote to your wii it pairs by the method most commonly refereed to as "just works". This is because no pin or numeric comparison is required. It simply "just works" by the wii sending a Radio Frequency (RF) signal for a specific response (the response only a wiimote can make with the sync button) think of hitting that button as a long string of numbers in response to the wii asking you a complex math equation. The just works pairing of devices (wii and wiimote) is typically referred to as one of the more secure ways to bluetooth pair.

Having a secure pair is a good thing, but that is not necessarily vital. Many things can cause interference with the RF waves exchanged between the two devices (the wii and wiimote), and this is MLGs main concern.

First off I will give an example in retort to them saying there is not enough "bluetooth channels" which let me tell you do not exist.

Airports, business offices, and city streets have very similar environments as to MLG: lots of people in one place with cell phones in their pockets. And let me say this for an added bonus: a larger percentage of people on in those areas have bluetooth enabled and are using it to chat on their phones. Whether they are in a car, walking down the street, sitting in a lobby with a bluetooth mouse at the airport, or answering thousands of calls. Those people actually have the bluetooth enabled and are emitting RF waves. The people in the stands at the MLG events will not be using it nearly to such an extent...if at all.

Alright so if that is not enough to convince someone that interference will be minimal let me continue.

Bluetooth is run on a 2.4ghz band meaning anything running at that frequency could potentially cause interference which could include any of the following (this list is not all inclusive):

-Microwave ovens
-2.4 GHz or 5 GHz phones (these would be your house phones that are wireless and have a charging dock)
-Metal objects (will vibrate and send the RF band from the bluetooth in radical ways)
-Wireless speakers (would have to be running at 2.4ghz frequency)
-802.11 WIFI (but this is not much of a problem due to it using a different technique for accepting signals than bluetooth)
-Other Bluetooth devices and other 2.4ghz operating devices

I do not expect any "house phones" to be within a reasonable distance to cause interference so that is nil, metal objects I am assuming will not be placed between the player and the wii so that is also nil, even if wireless speakers are present they will probably be placed on walls and not causing noticeable interference, 802.11 wifi should cause no troubles as stated, and I do not expect many people will be using bluetooth devices (with it enabled) while watching the players.

So that was the list of possible inteferences, and most of them do not seem very likely to cause problems. If that is not enough to reconsider the wiimote. Let this last bit of knowledge help aid in your decision.

Bluetooth is divided into 3 classes of strength (1 being the strongest and 3 being the weakest).

So with the Wii probably being about 4-5 feet in front of the potential wiimote player very severe interference would have to take place in that distance to cause any sorts of problems...maybe if you placed 2 microwaves (right between the user and the wii) turned on you could get no signal. But that is not practical so let me go back to reality. The wiimote is classified as a class 1 bluetooth device...that is a ridiculously strong signal (I will admit I was shocked when I found that out). Class 1 devices are 10 times stronger than class 2 (class 2 is used by cellphones) and 100 times stronger than class 3.

So basically the only thing that is going to interfere with the bluetooth signals is microwaves or you get about 30 people standing between the player and the tv also with wiimotes pressing buttons at about 200 actions per minute.



sorry everyone for the SUPER LOOOOOONG post, I just wanted to help clarify a topic that I happen to know about. *note* I will not be attending the mlg event and I do not use a wiimote, also the stages and some of the rules look pretty lame.

To everyone that goes I hope you have a pleasant experience.

Best Regards,

ZTA

 

[adumbrodeus]

That and... is DDD REALLY the biggest issue in the metagame atm?


He's a B tier character, viable but I'd be a lot more worried about A-S.

First I believe you need to understand why these characters like these stages. Second I also think you need to understand how these characters go about when it comes to CP. With the way we normally strike stages there is no way a Wario main such as myself will be able ot wind up on Final D same with bans unless I totally have a brain or I'm play against MK in which case that stage doesn't have to be banned. Also a projectile users benefit from flat stages because it makes it easier from them to camp so Pit Tlink link all prefer final D. What match ups does FD screw besides wario v d3 ?

Let's get back at hand to the CP abilities of the three characters in question. All of the would prefer final D so that their ground game/ laser game is harder for your opponent to run away from. Note harder for your opponent to run away from. Secondly there isn't one decent IC any that wants to CP SV or BF against anyone especially against snake or MK when all that will help is you'll get plat formed camped. Same goes for falco or Diddy they go for they Settle for SV bF becuase Final D gets banned against them. Care to tell me what match up Falco Diddy or IC wants to take to BF or SV. They don't want to take those characters there it's just the stage that most emulates Final D and allows them to be close to their stage. No Character in the game is at a disadvantage playing of BF or SV.

Lol pretty much anyone playing against marth or MK for the former, and MK almost makes the latter banworthy.

Honestly, your perceptions of what counts as a "disadvantage" and what counts as "utilization of a character's natural abilities" is inconsistent.

A lot of us realized this recently, and our interpretation of "starter" (not neutral, because there is no such thing) is more based around evening MUs for the first round.

Some characters simply do a ****load better on flat unchanging stages, and that's a stage specific advantage, by having starters that aren't that, the advantage is lessoned.

Alright let's play your CP game. I'm d3 I strike LC SV and ps1. What will your next 4 strikes be ? It doesn't matter no matter what stage we go to i'll have the advantage on. Especially if you're a Character I can CG and plzzzzzzzzzzzzz don't say YI because d3 will just camp under the platform.

Doesn't help everyone unfortunately.

No it doesn't make sense at all. Those stages are neutrals it does not give Diddy Kong any added advantage by playing on that stage. There aren't any walk offs walls or harzard. The ceiling isn't really low to allow for d3 utilt to kill at like 100. Also in your scenario why is only one stage being striked at a time? That's not how it's going to work at MLG.

See above.

You can only strike so many stages and there aren't enough stages to strike for me to be able to play against d3 on a neutral playing field. If I can only strike 3 stages My strikes will have to be Delfinio Final D and Castle Seigie. Thus leaving the d3 player to be able to strike down until the only 2 stages that are left favor him in the match up that being YI and Halberd. Final D may be my worst stage as a Wario main but YI also sucks for Wario then coupled that with being against d3. Yeah that's stupid. Even if we were to flip the stage strikes so that i'd have 4 and d3 had three. D3 first three strikes would be LC, SV, and ps1. Then my four strikes would be the same as the ones I mentioned before but it would include halberd. So I'm still getting CP'd and not playing on a neutral game one thanks MLG for ****ing me and anyone that's gets CG by d3. Also liked to thank the BBR for allowing this to happen you guys have a great grasp on the way these things work. Normally I at least like to go out before I get ****ed. Pikachu can also walk of CG ppl on these stages.

And DDD is such a massive threat in the current metagame...

So going to SV game 1 is bad thing now? I don't get it LoL since when is going to a neutral bad? Being forced to go to halberd delfinio or Castle Seige is a lot worse. But whatever at least there's no wall infinites or chances for people to walked off CG on those stages. Ah man **** that SV putting me at such a disadvantage oh my goodness what am I ever too do =/.

DeDeDe isn't a bad match up to begin with because noramlly you can strike his good stages and start on a neutral one. However, the increased amount of stages that a d3 would CP against you that can now be used against you in game 1 instanly swings the match up in his favor. Why wouldn't you strike Delfinio or SV when there's walk offs and walls on delfinio ?

There is NO SUCH THING AS A NEUTRAL!

Honestly SV's general flat environment helps him a ****load more then castle siege ever will.


It's a matter of polarization, which stages in general results in more polarized MUs? I'll give you a hint, it's not Castle Seige.

 

[clowsui]

all this argument goes back to one thing we've known for FOREVER:

the strength of a character in the metagame depends HIGHLY on the stage list available

the whole reason falco's strength increased by a fair margin was PRECISELY because we decreased the list of starters from 9 or 7 to 5 and in some regions even 3.

the whole reason ICs' strength increased by a fair margin was PRECISELY because in the regions with the highest number of top players + large tournaments (EC/WC), their stage lists had 3 (WC) or 5 (EC) neutrals

the whole reason why DDD's strength decreased by a fair margin was because he lost to option to strike to CS/DP/HL (to a certain extent). now he only has at most FD/SV

the whole reason why diddy kong's strength increased by a fair margin is because on the EC/WC (more EC since they have a lot of DDKs, South too probably), they run stage lists where Diddy Kong has 3 solid options, sometimes the only starters available being those options (WC w/ SV/FD/BF)

the only reason why ppl are complaining is because the list does not reflect the metagame that they desire. in my opinion, at this point in time this ruleset is where the metagame actually SHOULD be, LOTS of starters but a smaller list of CPs. while i don't understand the logic of having Green Greens without Japes, it's MLG's tournament sooo whatever.

 

[Zankoku]

So going to SV game 1 is bad thing now? I don't get it LoL since when is going to a neutral bad? Being forced to go to halberd delfinio or Castle Seige is a lot worse. But whatever at least there's no wall infinites or chances for people to walked off CG on those stages. Ah man **** that SV putting me at such a disadvantage oh my goodness what am I ever too do =/.

DeDeDe isn't a bad match up to begin with because noramlly you can strike his good stages and start on a neutral one. However, the increased amount of stages that a d3 would CP against you that can now be used against you in game 1 instanly swings the match up in his favor. Why wouldn't you strike Delfinio or SV when there's walk offs and walls on delfinio ?

According to you, SV is the only stage you'd both be actually willing to play on. This is funny to me.

I don't see how these stages are "neutral" if you strike the same one every time. Practically everyone will strike FD against IC's, Dedede, Falco, or Diddy, so how is that stage more neutral than YI? You'll probably strike FD against any character than can grab release you, so how is this stage neutral when you refuse to play on it against a good part of the cast? Your region's reduction of starter stages down to three isn't necessarily a terrible idea, but the belief that FD is more fair than the other stages you took out to get there is hilarious considering how often it actually gets played on first round.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

That and... is DDD REALLY the biggest issue in the metagame atm?

He's a B tier character, viable but I'd be a lot more worried about A-S.

I'm glad all the d3 players no longer play phew what a relief I mean his tier status really proves your point =/.

Lol pretty much anyone playing against marth or MK for the former, and MK almost makes the latter banworthy.

Honestly, your perceptions of what counts as a "disadvantage" and what counts as "utilization of a character's natural abilities" is inconsistent.

A lot of us realized this recently, and our interpretation of "starter" (not neutral, because there is no such thing) is more based around evening MUs for the first round.

Some characters simply do a ****load better on flat unchanging stages, and that's a stage specific advantage, by having starters that aren't that, the advantage is lessoned.

I don't see how it my points are incosistent at all. Care to go into more detail. I don't your logic at all. There's a big dfifference from having to go to Castle Seige as a starter as opposed to having to Battlefield. The inherent flaw in your argument and all praxis argument and MLG decision is that no character is truely being CP by going to SV BF or Finald with the exception Wario on Final D. Guess what Characters out perform other charaters no matter what the stage is. OMG all characters in this game aren't equal holy ****. While marth's best stage maybe Battlefield that doesn't mean that he won't lose on that stage and it doesn't put another character at a disadvantage because Marth decide to go BF. What puts the character at a disadvantage is the nature of the character or Marth just being superior to a character in that regrad. So instead of me getting CG for 20 damage maybe have a follow up of a dtilt ftilt or GR depending on who my character is I know how have the potential of getting walked off or CP'd. Let's not forget that these stages that have been added are also good for snake and MK more so Halberd and Delfino than CS but I hope you understand my point and where I'm getting at.

Doesn't help everyone unfortunately.

See above.

It doesn't hurt everyone either. I don't see how stages that gives possibilties of walks and wall infinites should even be considered as a starter.

And DDD is such a massive threat in the current metagame...


There is NO SUCH THING AS A NEUTRAL!

Honestly SV's general flat environment helps him a ****load more then castle siege ever will.

SV more helpful to d3 than CS i'm all ears for this explanation. Let's see a huge tournament like this I wonder what d3 mains will be there Atmosk, lain, and co18 most likely will be there. I'm pretty ****ing **** that's a massive threat on the metagame. But whatever I guess. Let's also not forget the pikachu mains who will possible be there Anther, esam, pika pika, Z and who ever the hell else mains pika where they can just walk off CG certain characters.

It's a matter of polarization, which stages in general results in more polarized MUs? I'll give you a hint, it's not Castle Seige.

I'm not even going to guess.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

According to you, SV is the only stage you'd both be actually willing to play on. This is funny to me.

I don't see how these stages are "neutral" if you strike the same one every time. Practically everyone will strike FD against IC's, Dedede, Falco, or Diddy, so how is that stage more neutral than YI? You'll probably strike FD against any character than can grab release you, so how is this stage neutral when you refuse to play on it against a good part of the cast? Your region's reduction of starter stages down to three isn't necessarily a terrible idea, but the belief that FD is more fair than the other stages you took out to get there is hilarious considering how often it actually gets played on first round.

One my region uses five starters.

Secondly it's just the nature of my character as to why I strike Final D. It's not because the stage in general is bad but because of the GR sheningans why should I give my opponent a free way to rack damage or give them a free kill set up ? That's just illogical. I've said this before FD is a starter that CP's wario and i feel as though I've been CP whenever I play friendlies and we go t Final D.

Starters I'd be willing to go to are BF SV and LC since that's the fifth starter in my area. I just say SV because I don't see how SV can be disadvantageous for anyone. I'd rather ban delfinio against d3 then Final D TBH. It is the lesser of two evils IMO. It's like get CG to gr or get walked of CG and still get GR.

Also you've conceived me move Final D ban final D to limit the projectiles whores from having their natural advantage. Allow ps1 as a starter. Then make that the offical stage list. Alright BBR time to change the official stage list rules.

Starters
BF
SV
LC
ps1
YI

But seriously I hope that the BBR doesn't decide to make the mLG rules the standard for tournies afterwards. But then again I doubt Jersey would adopt these rules anyways.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Nice to see that the CPs are actually Counter Picks, not sissy "It slightly upsets a few select characters" picks.

I also really like the set up for neutrals. Curious to see how it ends up when put into practice.

However, Team Attack better be On. Otherwise we'll see crazy stuff like D3s CGing characters towards an Ike Fsmash with no fear of being hit themselves.

 

[OverLade]

If the stages suck, let's just show MLG why when orlando rolls around.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Nice to see that the CPs are actually Counter Picks, not sissy "It slightly upsets a few select characters" picks.

I also really like the set up for neutrals. Curious to see how it ends up when put into practice.

However, Team Attack better be On. Otherwise we'll see crazy stuff like D3s CGing characters towards an Ike Fsmash with no fear of being hit themselves.

Why would we see an Ike in teams again? oh wait we won't I got ya.

 

[Zankoku]

Also you've conceived me move Final D ban final D to limit the projectiles whores from having their natural advantage. Allow ps1 as a starter. Then make that the offical stage list. Alright BBR time to change the official stage list rules.

Starters
BF
SV
LC
ps1
YI

This is actually our five stage list recommendation : D : D (we have three, five, seven, and nine stage variants)

 

[adumbrodeus]

I'm glad all the d3 players no longer play phew what a relief I mean his tier status really proves your point =/.

I'm saying that DDD getting a boost in this ruleset isn't a bad thing. Sucks for character's that don't like him, but it gives us a more diverse enviroment.

I don't see how it my points are incosistent at all. Care to go into more detail. I don't your logic at all. There's a big dfifference from having to go to Castle Seige as a starter as opposed to having to Battlefield. The inherent flaw in your argument and all praxis argument and MLG decision is that no character is truely being CP by going to SV BF or Finald with the exception Wario on Final D. Guess what Characters out perform other charaters no matter what the stage is. OMG all characters in this game aren't equal holy ****. While marth's best stage maybe Battlefield that doesn't mean that he won't lose on that stage and it doesn't put another character at a disadvantage because Marth decide to go BF. What puts the character at a disadvantage is the nature of the character or Marth just being superior to a character in that regrad. So instead of me getting CG for 20 damage maybe have a follow up of a dtilt ftilt or GR depending on who my character is I know how have the potential of getting walked off or CP'd. Let's not forget that these stages that have been added are also good for snake and MK more so Halberd and Delfino than CS but I hope you understand my point and where I'm getting at.

What I mean is that you're drawing an arbitrary line between which is which, if they do well on starter it's "utilization of natural character abilities" if they do well on non-starters, it's "the stage is ****" and you seem to define starters by "characters that should do well" doing well.


For the "marth does better then them" section, that's true of literally every character on literally every stage. Period.

Your line of "what counts as BS" is seemingly arbitrary and seems to be based on "what helps my character".


I take the position, that every MU advantage is equal to every MU advantage that's a similar degree, no matter what the reason.

It doesn't hurt everyone either. I don't see how stages that gives possibilties of walks and wall infinites should even be considered as a starter.

Because they're very situational.

SV more helpful to d3 than CS i'm all ears for this explanation. Let's see a huge tournament like this I wonder what d3 mains will be there Atmosk, lain, and co18 most likely will be there. I'm pretty ****ing **** that's a massive threat on the metagame. But whatever I guess. Let's also not forget the pikachu mains who will possible be there Anther, esam, pika pika, Z and who ever the hell else mains pika where they can just walk off CG certain characters.

Flat stage, he can easily zone you with ftilt and limit your movements via waddle-dees. The transformations (as in the "between stages" section) are his biggest advantage and easy to wait out, there's way too much room in the second transformation to consider walk-offs viable, and the third is FD but smaller, with better ledges, and smaller hurts him.

I'm not even going to guess.

Out of the current starters, it's probably FD, with an honorable mention to "MK auto-wins" aka SV.

 

[hotgarbage]

You guys should check out AZ's response to the criticism before you post:

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=9896452&postcount=973


Anyways I guess I'll post my thoughts even though my thoughts don't matter b/c I'm a nobody LOL

Marth infinites on mother boys and Dedede's infinites banned
I don't agree with banning these because they really have no effect on the metagame (aka they aren't close to being broken). Despite that I could see a rational for MLG doing so. MLG is a business, and as such they need their games to be entertaining and "marketable". I could see them arguing that these "gay" things get in the way of that or something along those lines, which would be understandable I guess. My biggest concern with these rules are not their existence however, but the fact that they're incomplete:

- As Shaya pointed out they didn't address the PT infinite on ness/lucas. They like PT more than Marth??
- ZSS infinite on ROB. Poor ROB
- Various 0-deaths on Fox. Not an infinite sure, but they result in the exact same thing.... where do you draw the line?
- Various grab-release infinites on Wario. Another one that isn't addressed. ...Oh dear. There isn't a rule against stalling here. So according to this ruleset you could legally pick Yoshi and grab release Wario the whole match.
- Ice Climber's cast-wide infinites. Another case of "where do you draw the line?" I suppose.

I imagine that I'm missing some as well. The whole thing is just messy/unsatisfactory.

Universal 35 ledge-grab limit
So I'm using Peach against Falco. I get a few good reads at the beginning of his stock and pile on some great damage. I now have a notable percent lead. Despite this he phantasms to the other end of the stage and starts to campcampcampcamp. Well... considering how much damage he can pile on if I lose the guessing game I'd rather not risk breaking through his camping again, so in an effort to push him out of his advantageous position I grab the ledge and plank. Once he gets in range I'll probably get back on stage and engage him again.... after all I'd rather not risk him being competent and spiking me out of my up-b.

...But wait, he's not approaching me.... wtf??

OH YEAH LOL

LGL. HE DOESN'T HAVE TOO. HAPPY DAY.


Silly example aside I don't like universal ledge grab limits. I'm not using MK, my grabbing the ledge is not broken, but I'm being punished for using this basic game mechanic regardless. Strict universal LGLs are a bad rule. They alter the very way the game is played and artificially alter the metagame in the process. It's a shame the SBR-B was so late to address these really. Because of their commonality this aspect of our metagame is very underdeveloped, and our metagame in general is warped.



No anti-scrooging rule
Curious that they hit plaking so hard but didn't address this in the least. This might lead to some really stupid matches, we'll see!

No Wiichuck
Completely understandable. What isn't understandable is the fact that this wasn't announced till AFTER people had bought their passes . EDIT: after reading =ZtA='s post I'm not sure if this is reasonable

Higher seeded team choosing controller ports first in teams
This is silly, and is obviously less fair than the system traditionally used.

No Dave's stupid rule/Team Attack On
SWEET MERCY PLEASE FIX THIS.

Stages
I really like 9 starters personally. Norfair and Green Greens I don't know about, but I don't think it'll be that big a deal. We'll see!



So yeah. Ranting aside it's important to note that despite these qualms this ruleset is still completely competitive (...assuming they fix the team attack thing). This isn't a complete joke like evo. I'm still really looking forward to... well, watching the livestream .

Bottom line: I expect this showing to be a success. And I expect the lessons learned from Brawl's first MLG appearance to be noted and improvements implemented for Columbus. I can understand MLG wanting to take a more experimental approach here. That said it's a pity that this process wasn't made less painful and more heed wasn't given to the community recommendations.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

This is actually our five stage list recommendation : D : D (we have three, five, seven, and nine stage variants)

Really? I didn't see that.

I'm saying that DDD getting a boost in this ruleset isn't a bad thing. Sucks for character's that don't like him, but it gives us a more diverse enviroment.

Giving d3 a boost makes just about every character that get's cG by him unviable except for snake now it becomes even harder to beat d3. Now if we couple that we the fact that he can legimately CP you game 1 go dur dur dur game 2 and game 3 have another CP option open is silly. The notion of MK even being able to go halberd or delfinio game one is silly to say the least.

What I mean is that you're drawing an arbitrary line between which is which, if they do well on starter it's "utilization of natural character abilities" if they do well on non-starters, it's "the stage is ****" and you seem to define starters by "characters that should do well" doing well.

That's not true it just so happens that walks off ***** characters that get CG by d3 or pikachu tp an extent.

For the "marth does better then them" section, that's true of literally every character on literally every stage. Period.

Your line of "what counts as BS" is seemingly arbitrary and seems to be based on "what helps my character".

I'm not the only person playing a character that gets CG by d3. I'm pretty sure none of the DK mains are too thrilled to see the inclusion of some of these CP's as starters. BUt hell I guess your retort is going to be DK is mid tier what impact does he have on the metagame =/.

I take the position, that every MU advantage is equal to every MU advantage that's a similar degree, no matter what the reason.

That's a silly stance to take. It's like d3 can CG like 80% of the cast so if you get grabbed during or before a Stage transformation of CS you can get killed. This turns into a Zero death. Same with get grabbed against a wall. Please don't retort with don't get grabbed. So not only will d3 CG but he has a zero death on me or can infinite me against a wall. i can get CG and still win the d3 match up. I can get GR into usmash bair whatever and still win. However, when it comes to get walked off or getting infinited against walls it becomes a bit riidiculous especially if we're considering these stages as starters. Basically what MLG will turn into is if you do or don't get CG by d3. If you don't you'll instantly more viable then any character that gets CG that's not snake. Now we have to look at your match ups against MK Snake falco diddy kong IC. So a lot of matches will go to time. A lot of characters will just get walked off CG. It's really simple to see how MLG will turn out.

Because they're very situational.


Flat stage, he can easily zone you with ftilt and limit your movements via waddle-dees. The transformations (as in the "between stages" section) are his biggest advantage and easy to wait out, there's way too much room in the second transformation to consider walk-offs viable, and the third is FD but smaller, with better ledges, and smaller hurts him.


Out of the current starters, it's probably FD, with an honorable mention to "MK auto-wins" aka SV.

You do realize that he doesn't have to grab you during the transformation in order to walk you off he can grab you before it and continue it through the transformation.

 

[clowsui]

could you please make a post that summarizes your points with decent grammar? i feel compelled to make a response to you but i literally cannot make it past your first few sentences because of the strange random capitalizations + random exclusions of words.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

could you please make a post that summarizes your points with decent grammar? i feel compelled to make a response to you but i literally cannot make it past your first few sentences because of the strange random capitalizations + random exclusions of words.

I don't know what you mean how come other people are able to respond but you can't ?

 

[OverLade]

Giving d3 a boost makes just about every character that get's cG by him unviable except for snake now it becomes even harder to beat d3.

Agreed. We all have 20 days to figure out who counters D3 on green greens...

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Universal 35 ledge-grab limit
So I'm using Peach against Falco. I get a few good reads at the beginning of his stock and pile on some great damage. I now have a notable percent lead. Despite this he phantasms to the other end of the stage and starts to campcampcampcamp. Well... considering how much damage he can pile on if I lose the guessing game I'd rather not risk breaking through his camping again, so in an effort to push him out of his advantageous position I grab the ledge and plank. Once he gets in range I'll probably get back on stage and engage him again.... after all I'd rather not risk him being competent and spiking me out of my up-b.

...But wait, he's not approaching me.... wtf??

OH YEAH LOL

LGL. HE DOESN'T HAVE TOO. HAPPY DAY.


Silly example aside I don't like universal ledge grab limits. I'm not using MK, my grabbing the ledge is not broken, but I'm being punished for using this basic game mechanic regardless. Strict universal LGLs are a bad rule. They alter the very way the game is played and artificially alter the metagame in the process. It's a shame the SBR-B was so late to address these really. Because of their commonality this aspect of our metagame is very underdeveloped, and our metagame in general is warped.

You could just power shield all the lasers instead. Mike haze did it while approaching while DEHF was just standing on the floor mashing B.


Also to all the stupid people talking about team attack, The original rules posted were for 1v1 they updated it with 2v2 a little while ago.

http://www.mlgpro.com/pro-circuit/2010/

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Why would we see an Ike in teams again? oh wait we won't I got ya.

You sir, are a joke.

Despite the fact that several Ikes are going to this, and the fact Ike does better in doubles then in singles, with Team Attack off there is a VERY large incentive to use Ike in doubles.

"Oh hey, let me just knock this here one guy off stage, grab/cg his buddy while he's busy recovering, and you smash his face in for a very early KO, k?"

I mean, you have to be really, really stupid to not see this happening with Team Attack Off, or something equally gay. What if it's not Ike's Fsmash, but Snake's Utilt? His partner doesn't have to worry at all about being hit by it. Or D3's Fsmash. Or Marth's Shield Breaker. Or Wario's Waft. Or DK's Punch? Or Ness's PK Flash? Or Lucas's Usmash? Or Falcon Punch? Get the picture yet?

EDIT: Oh good. Now my example is more about a theoretical problem then a actual problem. Yays.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I don't know what you mean how come other people are able to respond but you can't ?

Not gonna lie, it's a little torturous.

Agreed. We all have 20 days to figure out who counters D3 on green greens...

G&W?


I think people overrate DDD on Green Greens in general though, snap the bottom blocks and he barely has a chaingrab (they don't regen till the blocks above respawn), the stage somewhat negates his good recovery, and the quarters are too close for ftilt to be an effective threat.

 

[Turbo Ether]

Guys, DDD is obviously gonna **** this **** this tournament, specifically because of the ruleset! This is unacceptable and the rules must be changed ASAP, FFS!

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Not gonna lie, it's a little torturous.



G&W?


I think people overrate DDD on Green Greens in general though, snap the bottom blocks and he barely has a chaingrab (they don't regen till the blocks above respawn), the stage somewhat negates his good recovery, and the quarters are too close for ftilt to be an effective threat.

Wouldn't you have to do that to all the blocks? So now instead of worrying about the your opponent you must go out of your way to destroy the bottom block. I see that makes sense. Care to explain why the d3 player is allowing this to be done ?

 

[clowsui]

Other people prefer to wade through that mess, I don't, but I'm also interested in this argument. If you can't present your points in a clear manner/choose not to by telling me to "suck it up" then whatever, lol

EDIT: Dude, destroying the bottom blocks on GG isn't hard. DDD can't cover the option of you destroying the blocks on the other side anyways. If anything the blocks actually force an approach. If DDD wants to abuse the CG on this stage then he has to take every measure possible to prevent the blocks from being destroyed, hence he has to approach you if you're on the other side of the "block wall". Fighting DDD on this stage is as simple as getting a lead and hopping to the other side, and laughing as DDD tries to approach you before you get back into a position that you can fight him in

 

[Nidtendofreak]

For people worried about Green Greens:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=243289&

@Legendary: Are you even trying anymore? Seriously, this is getting pathetic. It's not hard at all to quickly bust three blocks while being on the other side of the stage from D3. He's too slow to get over the blocks and stop you in time: aerial movement speed is too bad.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

You sir, are a joke.

Despite the fact that several Ikes are going to this, and the fact Ike does better in doubles then in singles, with Team Attack off there is a VERY large incentive to use Ike in doubles.

"Oh hey, let me just knock this here one guy off stage, grab/cg his buddy while he's busy recovering, and you smash his face in for a very early KO, k?"

I mean, you have to be really, really stupid to not see this happening with Team Attack Off, or something equally gay. What if it's not Ike's Fsmash, but Snake's Utilt? His partner doesn't have to worry at all about being hit by it. Or D3's Fsmash. Or Marth's Shield Breaker. Or Wario's Waft. Or DK's Punch? Or Ness's PK Flash? Or Lucas's Usmash? Or Falcon Punch? Get the picture yet?

EDIT: Oh good. Now my example is more about a theoretical problem then a actual problem. Yays.

I don't care if they we're a thousands ike mains attending. Ike is a bad character and you should feel bad for maining him.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Wouldn't you have to do that to all the blocks? So now instead of worrying about the your opponent you must go out of your way to destroy the bottom block. I see that makes sense. Care to explain why the d3 player is allowing this to be done ?

Because it's quick, and there are ways to do it which make it pretty much unpunishable, it's all situational obviously, but each situation offers it's own options.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I don't care if they we're a thousands ike mains attending. Ike is a bad character and you should feel bad for maining him.

Because that is a such a compelling counter point to the potential (and now no longer a threat) issue that was being discussed, complete with ignoring the other examples.

Serious question: Are you actually trying, or are you just trolling by this point? I'm leaning towards option two.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

For people worried about Green Greens:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=243289&

@Legendary: Are you even trying anymore? Seriously, this is getting pathetic. It's not hard at all to quickly bust three blocks while being on the other side of the stage from D3. He's too slow to get over the blocks and stop you in time: aerial movement speed is too bad.

It's funny how that proves his point but in the vid he dies at 112 to a ROB bair at the center of the stage =/. I'm convienced..... That's pretty funny Mr. Ike main which one of your moves in your moveset is fast enough to allow you get rid of those bottom block with out getting punished =/. If only you could duck and jab.

Because it's quick, and there are ways to do it which make it pretty much unpunishable, it's all situational obviously, but each situation offers it's own options.

So basically you can't think of a situation where you can just knock away three blocks.

Because that is a such a compelling counter point to the potential (and now no longer a threat) issue that was being discussed, complete with ignoring the other examples.

Serious question: Are you actually trying, or are you just trolling by this point? I'm leaning towards option two.

The ike thing was just a joke relax.

 

[adumbrodeus]

So basically you can't think of a situation where you can just knock away three blocks.

The opposite actually, jumping over them backwards and dtilting them is the first that came to mind with my character for the first second of the match, but I can think of so many situational ways to do it that it's pointless to list them all.

Works for more characters too.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

You know, AlmostLegendary, if you're SO worried about what DDD is going to do to you in this tournament with these rules, you could, you know, do what DDD's normally do. GET A SECONDARY. Stop johning; pick up MK/Oli/ICs/Falco/Pika. There are plenty of chars that really counter DDD.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Speaking of which, Green Greens renders Zelda's terrible recovery almost nill and with her kill power and DDD's lack of effective ftilt... Something to think about.

 

[OverLade]

G&W?


I think people overrate DDD on Green Greens in general though, snap the bottom blocks and he barely has a chaingrab (they don't regen till the blocks above respawn), the stage somewhat negates his good recovery, and the quarters are too close for ftilt to be an effective threat.

Agreed about GaW, but the infinite chaingrab isn't even the reason why Dedede is **** on Green Greens. It helps Dedede for the same reason it helps snake, and for the same reason it helps snake (low ceiling, platforms that can be camped under). The Infinite chaingrab is just an EXTRA GAY bonus tat he gets.

You're looking at specific things. Theorycraft doesn't equal in game. Me and Mampam played on greengreens all night yesterday, and I don't need statistics to say that Green Greens is probably his best stage, vs characters that can be CGd and those that cant.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

Well getting stage meteored by those bombs is hella gay. Especially if they spawn in from the ceiling and they it you at weird angles LOL

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

You know, AlmostLegendary, if you're SO worried about what DDD is going to do to you in this tournament with these rules, you could, you know, do what DDD's normally do. GET A SECONDARY. Stop johning; pick up MK/Oli/ICs/Falco/Pika. There are plenty of chars that really counter DDD.

I do have a back up my back up is Zelda. I've tried all the characters you named but I don't like any of them. MK is really bad laughable bad it's not even funny. If I had to choice one of those characters it'd be Oli. Anyways that still becomes meaningless when all of them die at like 60 from a bair or like 80 from an utilt.

@Adum something like that could work if you where playing someone like Marth or Zelda or MK.

I just thought of something has anyone ever been shuttle looped on Green Greens? That doesn't seem like it would be fun at all.

Also I would like to point out that in the thread praxis made about how to fight on green greens he even says himself he wouldn't take Atomsk there LoL.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Agreed about GaW, but the infinite chaingrab isn't even the reason why Dedede is **** on Green Greens. It helps Dedede for the same reason it helps snake, and for the same reason it helps snake (low ceiling, platforms that can be camped under). The Infinite chaingrab is just an EXTRA GAY bonus tat he gets.

You're looking at specific things. Theorycraft doesn't equal in game. Me and Mampam played on greengreens all night yesterday, and I don't need statistics to say that Green Greens is probably his best stage, vs characters that can be CGd and those that cant.

Dude, I KNOW it's a bonus, I never pretended otherwise, and it IS a good DDD stage. I was merely responding to complaints about that specific issue because that's what people chose to bring up to disagree with me.


Again, powerful, but not banworthy.

 

[Judo777]

dont get me wrong i dont mind green greens and the block hitting is a good idea but there are a few problems with "hit the bottom blocks and ur done" idea. Firstly that requires there to not be a bomb in the bottom blocks or the whole thing will be destroyed if u attack em. Also if u knock out the bottom blocks.....D3 or any other character can just knock out the top blocks resetting the whole situation.

 

[Ripple]

there is no problem with the stages

you don't ban a stage because its too good for a very few amount of characters.

which makes me wonder why japes is not legal

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

dont get me wrong i dont mind green greens and the block hitting is a good idea but there are a few problems with "hit the bottom blocks and ur done" idea. Firstly that requires there to not be a bomb in the bottom blocks or the whole thing will be destroyed if u attack em. Also if u knock out the bottom blocks.....D3 or any other character can just knock out the top blocks resetting the whole situation.

This is true LoL. It'd be funny to see who can destroy the blocks first. I don't like the MLG rules and there stage choices are bad.

@ripple it's obvious a sesitmatic way of destroying DK's viability.

 

[fkacyan]

there is no problem.

you don't ban a stage because its too good for a very few amount of characters.

which makes me wonder why japes is not legal

If that character is essentially the only one capable of winning on that stage, of course you do. Otherwise that stage just detiorates "Who knows how to abuse the stage with <character> better?"

Falco's CG spike is a 0-death in the water against a lot of the cast, and if he times his spike he can hit you into a klaptrap. If he has a stock lead he can just follow your DI to the surface and spike you again.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

If that character is essentially the only one capable of winning on that stage, of course you do. Otherwise that stage just detiorates "Who knows how to abuse the stage with <character> better?"

Falco's CG spike is a 0-death in the water against a lot of the cast, and if he times his spike he can hit you into a klaptrap. If he has a stock lead he can just follow your DI to the surface and spike you again.

Zelda also has some shenningans on Japes.

 

[hotgarbage]

You could just power shield all the lasers instead. Mike haze did it while approaching while DEHF was just standing on the floor mashing B.

That's beside the point. Why can't I repeatedly grab the ledge as Peach? Because when MK does it it's too good? Oh hey that makes sense....

Addressing what you said though, yes I could powershield all the lasers.... if I wanted to mentally tax myself and be continually frame-disadvantaged. Forcing him to get close by camping the ledge would be a much better strategy... but I cannot utilize this optimal, non-broken strategy because of these intrusive LGLs.

Also to all the stupid people talking about team attack, The original rules posted were for 1v1 they updated it with 2v2 a little while ago.

Ah, good to see that they fixed that. I'll say though, calling people "stupid" for lacking the clairvoyance necessary to know that MLG had updated their ruleset is ....well, stupid .