Tier List Speculation

[Infil]

That tier list aside, I really can't see how Snake is anything less than, like, top of A tier, that character is so good

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

For all his kit, Snake actually has a fairly tough time with swords.

I'm actually pretty sad that Sethlon v/s Rolex never happened at Apex. Or an Ally/Rolex rematch.

 

[Burnsy]

I think Peach could be right. One of the things I like about Nausicaa's lists are that they seem to be created thoughtfully, and based 100% on his own opinions, rather than just taking what is popular opinion and making adjustments from there based on things he disagrees with.

I'm am curious about which matchups you think Luigi wins and loses, Nausicaa.

Also while I think that Snake has a lot of matchups that he wins or at least goes even on, it also seems like there are a decent number of characters who would excel at getting in his face and make it difficult for him to get his setup/onstage game started. I wouldn't put him in top 10, more like top 15.

 

[Infil]

Snake isn't automatically in trouble when he's being pressured, though. Up B out of shield can lead to a sticky, and if he is able to make someone shield something, a lot of his aerials do tons of pressure to the shield. Not to mention, Snake's grab game is way up there. Basically, if you leave Snake alone it's bad news, but if you're pressuring him and you leave an opening, I think it can be just as bad. Snake is also super mobile for a character with his options.

I suppose his one weakness that you'll have to exploit is his recovery, which is just average and predictable from certain angles. Maybe he struggles against gimp characters if they can get him off the stage. But I basically can't imagine Snake outright loses to more than a very small number of characters, and even then it's probably just barely.

 

[Burnsy]

I am aware that up-b is a good way to deal with pressure, but its just one move. Its not so good that it will be applicable to all situations where he is under pressure. That's why its good to have several options like that, they come in handy in different situations and against different pressure.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Yeah, there isn't really a single move that's extremely good and applicable to a mind-boggling variety of situations, such as anti-pressure, gimps and combos.

I'm pretty sure a move like that doesn't exist.

Oh wait

 

[The_NZA]

Yeah, there isn't really a single move that's extremely good and applicable to a mind-boggling variety of situations, such as anti-pressure, gimps and combos.

I'm pretty sure a move like that doesn't exist.

Oh wait

we talin bout peach's dsmash?

 

[Deleted member]

peach's dsmash is my favorite combo

 

[Bleck]

He's talking about bananas, obviously.

 

[Mr_Sweet]

I dunno guys. Vist DID win S@X last week. That is pure proof that luigi is atleast upper mid amirite ;c

 

[Daftatt]

I dunno guys. Vist DID win S@X last week. That is pure proof that luigi is atleast upper mid amirite ;c

I thought that chudat won? Or maybe that was the week prior.

Yeah, there isn't really a single move that's extremely good and applicable to a mind-boggling variety of situations, such as anti-pressure, gimps and combos.

I'm pretty sure a move like that doesn't exist.

Oh wait

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I was talking about DDD's crouch.

What did you think?

 

[Soft Serve]

Funny is ye who think not shall a list thy see feel silly, cometh!


3.0 series

S - Completely Viable (Can win a tournament alone, with only a few hurdles)

Lucas
Wolf
Luigi
Yoshi
Pikachu
Peach
Metaknight

A - Viable (Can win a tournament alone, but with more than a few hurdles)

Zero Suit Samus
Sonic
Pit
Wario
Kirby
Fox
Diddy Kong
Mario
Sheilda

B - Functional Viability (Can win a tournament alone, though possibly with many hurdles)
Captain Falcon
Mewtwo
Snake
Falco
Toon Link
Ivysaur
Marth
Link
Lucario
Ike
Donkey Kong
Sheik
Roy
Samus

C/B - Viably Functional (Probably won't win a tournament alone, but it's still possible since they're good enough to go far until their quirks come into play. Minor tweaks could do well for some, but nothing major, while some are perfect in this tier without changes due to their polarizing nature.)

Game & Watch
ROB
Jigglypuff
Charizard
Bowser
Ganondorf
Ness
Zelda
Olimar
Squirtle

F (permanent Ivan Ooze Tier)
Ice Climbers (2 hammers make a whole)

I thought you were having life johns and were just going to lurk for like a year? Best use of your 1000th post btw.

 

[Mr_Sweet]

If you don't have olimar in S tier you obviously are garbage lol #rekt

 

[DMG]

Nausicca has Luigi with God Tier MU's, and basically 0-deathing a lot of the cast even with good DI. You're basically assumed to be perfectly spacing, pivot tilting, and approaching with Luigi under his evaluation.

Snake Upb is more than good enough for 95% of things. He still has WD OOS, shield grab, decent roll away, hell sometimes you can just pull a grenade and it's good enough.

 

[zman804]

Yeah, there isn't really a single move that's extremely good and applicable to a mind-boggling variety of situations, such as anti-pressure, gimps and combos.

I'm pretty sure a move like that doesn't exist.

Oh wait

At least there's not a move that does all that and reflects projectiles.

 

[Tech-Nelium the Shark]

Is there any consensus on who the least good characters are in PM? I feel like no characters are bad, but some characters have some really good tools compared to some just ok ones other characters have.

 

[Ali Baba 177]

Is there any consensus on who the least good characters are in PM? I feel like no characters are bad, but some characters have some really good tools compared to some just ok ones other characters have.

Most people put olimar at the bottom,, I think he is better than that but he also has terrible tournament results.

 

[DMG]

D3
Olimar
Ganon

These are the three most consistent people listed in recent times. Sonic is sometimes thrown around in that, but is less agreed upon.

In my view, there are characters better than that threshold, who could still use some love. G^W, TL, Puff, and secretly ROB could use little itty bitty buffs of fluffy love. Nothing too much though.

I leave out Zelda because she doesn't need buffs or nerfs. She needs a new path of prosperity. Like the best way to sum up any talks about Zelda, is that you know something is wrong when 95% of the answers you get to questions are "Sorta, but not really"

I'll give you a few examples:

"Hey is Zelda good at approaching?" - Sorta, but not really
"Hey is Zelda good at recovering?" - Sorta, but not really
"Hey is Zelda good at killing?" - Sorta, but not really
"Hey is Zelda good at edgeguarding?" - ^
"Hey is Zelda good at projectile camping?" - ^^
"Hey is Zelda good at escaping combos?" - SO ON AND SO FORTH


Change her. Plz. Plz

 

[Deleted member]

the best way to fix zelda is to nerf fox upsmash and nayru's at the same time.

 

[jtm94]

I really want Zelda to be changed, but I am also really afraid of what they'll make her into.

A lot of the changes that have been discussed are mostly as nerfs, and that will absolutely ruin her as she already isn't good. She has bad approaches, is forced to make extensive use of dins because of this. She also has a few moves to escape combos, keeping the opponents at a distance, and she doesn't capitalize off of it. She just resets the neutral and is forced to place dins and be reactive all over again, it can be a painful cycle for either side. I would give up Nayru's Love or some of the Din's fire if she could gain better movement or offensive options that aren't just dash attack, I really like the idea of a single Din's fire that can be placed for longer than they can be now, but it comes out faster, isn't as strong, and allows her to use it offensively instead of just for defensive zoning or traps.

It just sucks that after Zhime and Ryoko put so much time into developing her character, she is being changed.

I think the way to go about major character changes is to discuss them with the people who actually play the game instead of making arbitrary changes and creating a completely unstable character. for nothing. I believe in the judgement of the backroom, but this is also a game for the people who play it, and I think outside input should be heeded a little more than it sometimes is.

 

[DMG]

Zelda changes and ideas, of any type or quality, are usually met with big resistance from Zelda players.

"You don't play her!"

"She's fun for us, idk why you call her anti fun!"

"I liek Din's"

Hell, I could throw out the idea of buffing jab, and some Zelda guy SOMEWHERE will throw a hissy fit that I don't see her as the perfect design she apparently is. We are trying to help out with the character (for both sides), and no other character gets this strong of a "Well you don't play x so why should I listen?" response.

I can't say that it's easy to face down major changes to your character, especially if you main her and have grown fond of decent things she does and has now. But for the love of God, I am trying to play Smash here. Same with Link: that's a little bundle of absolute Joy. Captain Boomerang, Ahoy!

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Yeah that boomerang is so much worse than a fast-firing land cancel-able projectile that can't even be clanked and effectively shuts down whole characters. *eyeroll*

Projectile camping has been a thing since Merleh and if you think Link's zoning and pressure game is in any way comparable to Big Bird's sheer douchebaggery you need a quick sanity check. With every character that can fire something, you'll always have players that'll press the shoot button as fast as they possibly can, fortunately with most characters it's not their absolute best option. It's definitely not in Link's best interest to keep tossing out rangs like an Australian beach shop owner who mixed up his salt shaker and cocaine bowl.

Rang is fine.

 

[Cassio]

Alright, I knew I wasnt crazy. Sorry for the drastic change of subject.

his upthrow kbg/bkb/dmg/trajectory was ported directly from melee

I got a chance to mess around and play both games side by side today. Pikas uthrow at 0% sends fox three pika lengths upwards in PM, and its only two in melee. For Marth, he would fly just above the first platform of BF, now he goes above the high one. I did these tests on Yoshis Story too. Im not sure why it turns out different, and I know it might not seem like much, but it does really mess with the flow of the character.

Also playing around more and directly comparing the games side by side, I feel like the issue with edge guarding between melee and brawl is something to do more with uair specifically and not PM or other character mechanics. Gonna mess with them again sometime until I can get a better idea.

 

[The_Altrox]

I think it's time to give a projectile, because dammit, I want to camp too!
Or, give him 's sing. The song of DEATH will bring the king of evil to the top tier.

 

[jtm94]

The biggest complaints about Zelda are that she changes gameplay mechanics and can't be played against unless you go really MU specific, whereas most characters share fundamental. Basically if you play against her as you would any other character you will run into much difficulty, but who's to say that Peach, Jigglypuff, Ice Climbers, or Snake don't do this? There are MUs like Diddy where you are at a legitimate disadvantage if you don't know how to do AGT item throw shenanigans because of how effective bananas are if you don't have an anti-item game.

I am willing to accept Zelda changes by all means as long as they are backed by some kind of reason other than, "We feel this is too good so we took it away because we thought it was a good idea at the time." It's just a weird idea to Zelda players that she is as bad as she is, but she gets as much hate as she does. Enough to warrant major changes even from the PMBR. She just needs better options besides kick or dins fire. Din's fire is a bad move, it is slow, relies on the opponent to fall into it, and is just a pain even though it isn't that good. At the same time it can be an amazing move enabling combos that shouldn't exist, but they're all zelda has and gives her something to do in neutral. It would be nice to have a move that is decent overall and CAN be used offensively or defensively with no obvious benefit to one specifically.

It's just a drag that Zelda is so polarized to benefit from other players making mistakes, that when other players don't make mistakes the MU instantly becomes unwinnable if they can play around dins. She can't make openings or get in there, and Nayru's doesn't count off of teleport because Nayru's resets the neutral game entirely unless you get a lucky tech read off of it, or actually did manage to jump in and landcancel it without getting hit away.

ALSO__________
Link is really good, I try to play against him and I cannot find a way to counter play him besides capitalizing on player mistakes, and this is with me using any character. His recovery is god-like, and incredibly hard to gimp. He can't be approached easily throw the wall of bombs/boomerangs, and his grab/shield grab will stuff everything else.

 

[Jacob29]

The range I get grabbed at by Links hookshot as Bowser...

 

[MagnesD3]

I think it's time to give a projectile, because dammit, I want to camp too!
Or, give him 's sing. The song of DEATH will bring the king of evil to the top tier.

I actually do think giving ganon a slow projectile instead of warlock punch would be good for him actually.

 

[Jacob29]

I actually do think giving ganon a slow projectile instead of warlock punch would be good for him actually.

Give him the light ball attack he sends out.

It bounce back if hit by a sword.

Genius.

 

[Kaeldiar]

ZELDA STUFF YAY!
Other people's thoughts

Spoiler

I leave out Zelda because she doesn't need buffs or nerfs. She needs a new path of prosperity. Like the best way to sum up any talks about Zelda, is that you know something is wrong when 95% of the answers you get to questions are "Sorta, but not really"

I'll give you a few examples:

"Hey is Zelda good at approaching?" - Sorta, but not really
"Hey is Zelda good at recovering?" - Sorta, but not really
"Hey is Zelda good at killing?" - Sorta, but not really
"Hey is Zelda good at edgeguarding?" - ^
"Hey is Zelda good at projectile camping?" - ^^
"Hey is Zelda good at escaping combos?" - SO ON AND SO FORTH


Change her. Plz. Plz

The biggest complaints about Zelda are that she changes gameplay mechanics and can't be played against unless you go really MU specific, whereas most characters share fundamental. Basically if you play against her as you would any other character you will run into much difficulty, but who's to say that Peach, Jigglypuff, Ice Climbers, or Snake don't do this? There are MUs like Diddy where you are at a legitimate disadvantage if you don't know how to do AGT item throw shenanigans because of how effective bananas are if you don't have an anti-item game.

I am willing to accept Zelda changes by all means as long as they are backed by some kind of reason other than, "We feel this is too good so we took it away because we thought it was a good idea at the time." It's just a weird idea to Zelda players that she is as bad as she is, but she gets as much hate as she does. Enough to warrant major changes even from the PMBR. She just needs better options besides kick or dins fire. Din's fire is a bad move, it is slow, relies on the opponent to fall into it, and is just a pain even though it isn't that good. At the same time it can be an amazing move enabling combos that shouldn't exist, but they're all zelda has and gives her something to do in neutral. It would be nice to have a move that is decent overall and CAN be used offensively or defensively with no obvious benefit to one specifically.

It's just a drag that Zelda is so polarized to benefit from other players making mistakes, that when other players don't make mistakes the MU instantly becomes unwinnable if they can play around dins. She can't make openings or get in there, and Nayru's doesn't count off of teleport because Nayru's resets the neutral game entirely unless you get a lucky tech read off of it, or actually did manage to jump in and landcancel it without getting hit away.

I've thought about Zelda changes a LOT, believe me. The problem is...I can't come up with anything that would REALLY help her without completely changing who she is as a character.

Why Zelda suffers: She is a tall character that is easy to hit. She is light and easily KO's. She is god awful slow. General lack of mobility. She only has a few reliable KO moves (Lightning Kick, d-smash, up and down tilt sorta), and the rest are either too slow, too weak, or too "small" (referring to hitboxes). While some of her moves are plenty strong and fast (up smash, f-smash), the hitboxes are awkwardly placed or just outright tiny.
Addendum: F-smash is actually alright as a kill move, but I have trouble landing it consistently

What Zelda excels at: One of the best recoveries in the game. Lightning Kick KOs at mid percentage. Lots of KO moves (even though they're hard to land)

What Zelda could possibly gain to make her better: BETTER MOBILITY. After a lot of analysis, I think that what she really needs is the ability to get in and use her moves. There isn't really anything wrong with her attacks, it's just that she can't use them. If you look at someone with her level of mobility, you come across people with giant swords, a hammer, or really big all-encompassing hitboxes (*cough*IkeD3Ganon*cough*). She doesn't have that.

I don't think her hitboxes need to be bigger, as it wouldn't fit the character. She needs MOBILITY. Give her better air speed and a second jump that actually makes her go somewhere. Zelda has one of the better punish games, but she can't use it if she can't create openings. Better jumps and more air speed might be all she needs. Giving her more ground speed would be awesome, too, but it doesn't make much sense with her character. We all know from OoT tower collapse that Zelda does not run well.


Unrelated

Spoiler

Yeah that boomerang is so much worse than a fast-firing land cancel-able projectile that can't even be clanked and effectively shuts down whole characters. *eyeroll*

Projectile camping has been a thing since Merleh and if you think Link's zoning and pressure game is in any way comparable to Big Bird's sheer douchebaggery you need a quick sanity check. With every character that can fire something, you'll always have players that'll press the shoot button as fast as they possibly can, fortunately with most characters it's not their absolute best option. It's definitely not in Link's best interest to keep tossing out rangs like an Australian beach shop owner who mixed up his salt shaker and cocaine bowl.

Rang is fine.

Nominating for best post

 

[Rizner]

Zelda changes and ideas, of any type or quality, are usually met with big resistance from Zelda players.

"You don't play her!"

"She's fun for us, idk why you call her anti fun!"

"I liek Din's"

Hell, I could throw out the idea of buffing jab, and some Zelda guy SOMEWHERE will throw a hissy fit that I don't see her as the perfect design she apparently is. We are trying to help out with the character (for both sides), and no other character gets this strong of a "Well you don't play x so why should I listen?" response.

I can't say that it's easy to face down major changes to your character, especially if you main her and have grown fond of decent things she does and has now. But for the love of God, I am trying to play Smash here. Same with Link: that's a little bundle of absolute Joy. Captain Boomerang, Ahoy!

I think a lot of this comes from the idea that they are changing her for one of three reasons:
1: She needs nerfs
2: She needs buffs, or
3: She is a different type if character who changes the progression of the game

The first two can be argued as most character change arguments. Those are the same as other characters under the microscope and theorycrafted. The third option is different, though. It shows what the pmbr is doing and making a goal towards. In my opinion (as a Zelda main to be fair) she shouldn't be drastically changed because I enjoy the character type and the success that they can create a new competitive character class. I don't enjoy playing as fox or falco as much because I dont like being super aggressive and always approaching or laser camping. If she is changed to be more offensive minded, there are other characters who do that. If more defensive, the same thing is there. But to change her completely loses character types and goes against what I have conidered pms idea (that all characters and char types should be preserved yet made viable) and instead goes more towards melee where only certain characters/types are good and fine to keep viable.
I am fine with small changes, but for large overhauls on characters that have been around for a while it seems late in the game.

Also Zelda shuts down a small amount of characters (ness comes to mind). I think those characters could often use small buffs to let them compete with her (like let nesss fair clank with fireballs or make ansorb box on his down b a little larger without also raising the hurtbox), or if zelda is decided too strong then slightly nerf her options. I just don't think it would be good for a overhaul on something viable

 

[BJN39]

Hell, I could throw out the idea of buffing jab, and some Zelda guy SOMEWHERE will throw a hissy fit that I don't see her as the perfect design she apparently is. We are trying to help out with the character (for both sides), and no other character gets this strong of a "Well you don't play x so why should I listen?" response.

I can't say that it's easy to face down major changes to your character, especially if you main her and have grown fond of decent things she does and has now. But for the love of God, I am trying to play Smash here. Same with Link: that's a little bundle of absolute Joy. Captain Boomerang, Ahoy!

You're kidding, right? Jab. Really?

And who says Smash Can't have defensive and unique characters? (Or so your post leads me to believe that's what you mean.)

I'm just upset that the pissing of the P:M community is gonna get an "fine" character changed AFTER 3.0. (And don't say you don't know that because a PMBR member let it slip in a chat.) So much for final version

"Oh we're just gonna do little balancing of found to be broken things after the full release." - PMBR members

Just letting the PMBR know they're making a BIG mistake for shutting out Zhime and Ryoko and nerfing Zelda, even though she's already "low-mid" at best in most people's minds.

 

[guedes the brawler]

I think it's cool that Zelda is different.

 

[MLGF]

When my friend doesn't L-Cancel, Wavedash, land hits, and only spams Nayru's love and wins (or gets close) to people inexperienced with the matchup, there's a problem.
The problem is that Zelda is technically shallow and has little depth in that field and relies almost entirely on predictions and reads. She slows the entire game down and is painfully dull to fight and the only character in the game that can be used without technical prowess of any kind.

She's just horrible and I'm sorry for Zelda mains, but she's not fun.

 

[Soft Serve]

Playing against zelda is fun... maybe its because i play diddy. Diddy zelda is like... diddy comes up with creativr item play to create openings in zeldas fire wall, then zelda adapts and changes the pattern or covers certain aproach options with anti airs at different timings, and diddy does new jank, player interaction. At first i hated zelda mus but i like them now

 

[GP&B]

You know Zelda has a significant flaw in her design when the strategy to beating her is to wait her out because her terrible mobility can't do anything about it.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Zelda is a purely anti-approach character without the ability to motivate opponents to approach her. Contrast this with Snake.

I want to say more, but I'll leave that for when I have less on my plate in terms of school. I just got off a waitlist into my uni's Game Design class and have a lot of administrative stuff to deal with. I will say before I leave: Why are we assuming Zelda is receiving nerfs, or that Zhime and Ryoko were completely shut out of the decision making process? What evidence do have for these statements? Genuine questions, guys, because we shouldn't be jumping to conclusions.

 

[Ace55]

When my friend doesn't L-Cancel, Wavedash, land hits, and only spams Nayru's love and wins (or gets close) to people inexperienced with the matchup, there's a problem.

Yeah, the problem is those other guys need to get better.

 

[Wrestlemania]

I don't know nothin bout nothin, but if they do make a drastically different Zelda why not make her a clone. Yeah, would take a **** ton of work, might not even be possible blah blah blah. If they made both New Zelda(Make her toon zelda or some ****) and still keep old Zelda, they can see how the new one does while still having the old one around for a bit. I mean this is all if they are making a new Zelda and putting in all that time and effort anyway. Then when they find/decide which one is going to stay Keelhaul the other *****.

Comparisons can be made, lines can be drawn, before we know it the entire community is being forced to pick a camp, old or new, chaos breaks out and before we know it anarchy arises!

 

[ELI-mination]

Here's a thought: People should learn matchups instead of these knee-jerk reactions calling things broken unjustifiably just because you lose a match or two to something you've never encountered before

OMG WHAT A CONCEPT