Time Travelers - Town wins! Time travel mechanics rarely used!

[ranmaru]

Ok, tell me in order, who you would wagon. Best wagon to least wagon from the left.

[Grey, Zen, PLSD]

 

[Reyth]

That's the exact order so far but I'm giving EACH of them time to collect themselves.

 

[ranmaru]

Ok, thank you.

Now, about the SK null tell. Why did you find it to be a town tell?

 

[Reyth]

Gut.........

 

[ranmaru]

Gut? This is the first time I have seen you say this.

Do you think he could do the same as scum?

 

[Reyth]

It is remotely possible but since I believe he thought that he actually had been replaced that it wasn't a scum ploy.

 

[Reyth]

You do raise an excellent point about Grey actively lurking though. Thank you for clarifying that it my mind.

 

[ranmaru]

That was the first time I have seen him ask for replacement lolz. I have pressured him even worse than that in PF and he didn't ask for replacement. Plus I don't know why he would abandon his hydra so easily.

Huh? You forgot about that? What made you forget?

Btw, this was the post relating to July's gut playstyle - (From MD)

Both are important.

Logic is really a lot stronger then most of the people in this thread give it credit for. I've had many games recently where logical scumhunting catches me any number of scum. It dosn't matter that "scum can use logic" like Gurgi said, that's irrelevent; logical scumhunting dosn't mean you're trying to catch people doing illogical things, it means you're trying to logically figure out what scum would be doing and if certain actions are scummy or not. The biggest weakness of logic is that you often end up attacking really bad players who are playing totally opposed to the town win condition but are actually town. That being said, if you lynch scum half the time and horribly anti-town townies the other half of the time, you're helping the town win.

Gut is also strong. People usually have a good sense of when people are bull****ing and stuff, and when people are acting "not like themselves". It's best when you have a good meta read on someone. That being said, gut has several major weaknesses of it's own. Gut players usually have a hell of a lot of trouble getting accurate reads of of logical scumhunters, often thinking that they're scum. Gut players also will tend to read people they like as town and people they don't like as scum, or people with playstyles like theirs as town and people with different playstyles as scum, at least until they get used to that person's playstyle.

They're both key, though, mostly because information in a mafia game is so thin most of the time. If you sometimes can make a logical case for someone being town or scum, and sometimes can get a gut read off of someone, you still are going to have a null read on a lot of people. You need to use both of them.

 

[Reyth]

It wasn't that I forgot it was that he wasn't classified as that in my head. It helps to me understand where my level of suspicion is on him.

 

[ranmaru]

What exactly was he classified in your head before that then?

 

[Reyth]

As somebody that hadn't completed their thoughts but so far had appeared town.

 

[ranmaru]

I don't see where he has ever appeared town. Can you quote a post that made you think that?

 

[Reyth]

Right! That's the problem -- even though he had appeared town he didn't provide the full reads and voting patterns to back that up. So in a way he is active lurking in a subtle way.

 

[ranmaru]

Err... What time period did he appear town to you? Can you quote a few posts that seemed town to you even though they didn't have 'evidence' and explain why? :D

 

[Reyth]

I look at his whole posting history and I see someone overall that is scum hunting; querying players, testing reactions and stirring things up. His playstyle is like Fate's.

 

[Reyth]

Well he basically left off saying: Ok my top reads are Zen, PLSD and KK. Get me half a wagon and I'll lynch KK.

That was weak but never came back after that.

 

[Reyth]

So he is def active lurking. If it doesn't change over the next 24 hours, I am joining that wagon, simply because apart from the two other lurkers, I don't have anyone I feel comfortable in voting.

 

[ranmaru]

Can you quote a few posts though? I want to see your vision from your POV. Give me a few specific posts plz. He hasn't posted much so I'm sure you can remember the specifics.

His playstyle isn't exactly like Fate's. Half, but he actually scumhunts instead of yelling policy lynch all the time, he actually pushes for lynches. Here he has not done so.

 

[July]

Well, you're not going to get that attention from me. As I said, I largely leave the reading of Ryker to others.

Gray made a comment to Swiss that he was comfortable in the place that he was in. Do you remember this post? What did you think of it at the time and what do you think of it in reference to what I've quoted from you above?

Kk fair enough, I do remember you saying once before that you leave reading Ryker to others.

I didn't remember that post specifically, so I went back and looked it up:

Additionally, I'd like to leave a note for Swiss and Kuz/Laundry. I like my position in this game right now. Please refrain from commenting on this post if you're one of those three people. It's just an interesting tidbit I thought you guys might enjoy.

At the time I remember still being frustrated that he only addressed Swiss and his concerns, and that it wasn't surprising that he also left this note to Kuz/Laundry because I know he's hydra'd with them before. Honestly I was confused as to why he liked his position in this game at this point. Usually when Ryker expresses satisfaction in a game, at least when I've played with him, it's because he thinks he has found scum and he takes a lot of pride in his scumhunting skills. Here he had yet to do any scumhunting, the most notable thing he had done was "help" Nich and start that whole situation.

In reference to what you've quoted from me above, this quote would mean that what he has done since then by staying in the shadows has been very deliberate to maintain that position that he was comfortable with. It means that he's also comfortable with not scumhunting this game which definitely fits his play so far.

This is fair and was what I thought and argued in favour of for a chunk of the thread. Did you see what I was talking about with a scumslip re: 155 and Reyth's explanation around 377?

Yes, I did see Nich's 155 and Reyth's take on it in his catch-up post, and T-Block and I had a discussion about this because it is where I questioned my read on Nich as just bad town and considered the possibility that he is scum. That post is still scummy and I still think it is a legit point, but taking everything into account, I still don't think that the scum motivation is there but there were attempts to scumhunt, and I'm giving that precedence when it comes to my read on him.

Also while I was looking up quotes I found these. The first being DeGrey's reasoning for not voting Vanderzant (KK):

1.) I don't know his hydra name.
2.) I haven't talked to Raziek at all yet and this isn't either Radical Fiction or Aggressive Mediation.

Super no there. Your push is weak. If that analysis post, which I had no issue with, is your only reason for voting them, then you need to step back and realize there are better places for your pressure. If you have more, then enlighten me because it's all I've seen.

How about this? If you get half the votes necessary to lynch on KK, I will vote him.

QFT.

Though I don't particularly care that they're waiting on getting their heads together which is what took me so long to start (I eventually gave up). Laundry is supposed to be back today, IIRC.

DeGrey has a lot of excuses for not voting that really don't add up. The first one he says that he doesn't want to vote without speaking to Raziek first, but in the second one he seems perfectly willing to put his vote on KK if he gets halfway to a lynch, and I don't think he discussed that with Raziek before he posted. Finally in the last one he says he's given up on waiting to get together with his other head so he has no reason not to be acting on his own scum reads and getting into the discussions here instead of hanging in the background.

 

[Reyth]

I can post my notes and point out where he is obviously scum hunting. Plus I agreed with his view on Nich.

 

[ranmaru]

Yes do that quickly. Yes pinpoint everywhere you have seen him appear town and explain why.

 

[Reyth]

Its an overall read based on his actions overall.

He is definitely active lurking though. That has been clarified in my mind.

 

[ranmaru]

Yes please post it. Just post it in

Spoiler

tags. If it's long. Or quote tags.

 

[Reyth]

Degrey -- Queries Swiss on Nich. Says Nich is VI. Should we policy lynch or just hope for
vig? Could be obv-newb-scum?. #220 Swiss town, T-Block prob-town, Nich VI-town or scum,
Nabe probtown. Says prefers to read Swiss as town as a resource. Query's Nich on his level
of play. Asks T-Block who he would investigate if he was a cop. Asks if I am analytical or
gut. Asks Nabe if he would go to lylo with himself. Tells Ran to hold himself in the town
category; will look scummy trying to get a scum read on him (??). Says PLSD must be scum
because T-Block and Swiss are town. Ran prob scum, tells T-Block to investigate Ran. Says
himself and T-Block probably won't be around late game to read Ran. Says Nich is prob scum
and town liability if not. Says will 100% lynch scum with nabe and not even reach lylo.
Says he would prefer to have Ran vigged; he is trying desperately to be lynched. Says cannot
determine Ran's alignment without making him look scummy regardless. Says he will get a scum
read on Swiss when reads diverge; until then Swiss is town. Tries to help Nich not to be an
easy mislynch; gives basic townie advice. Says T-Block analysis of post #142 makes Nich look
very bad.//Says Nich as VT or unproveable PR is a mislynch(??). Says T-Block is moving the
town forward and KK is not. Queries Swiss on SK. Top scum are KK, Zen and PLSD. Will lynch
KK or PLSD if there are enough votes. Agrees that PLSD is not conf-town.

 

[Reyth]

We can discuss the green things. All of them add up as someone who is scum hunting to me. But overall he is active lurking and needs to fix that.

 

[ranmaru]

You liked the green?

Can you explain to me how each thing in green is PRO TOWN?

 

[Reyth]

In general, he is majorly stirring up the pot and generating reads and reactions. His playstyle is like Fate's and I see an attempt (though ugly for sure) to garner reactions and thus reads.

 

[Reyth]

Like he hit you up like 3 times to try and get a reaction from you.

 

[Reyth]

To me this means he has trouble reading you and has a higher level concern about your slot.

 

[ranmaru]

I didn't ask for a general explanation here. I asked for a POINT BY POINT explanation of each thing. Each line in green, separate it, and explain how/why it is pro-town. Not just 'reactions'.

 

[Reyth]

You got MY point by point. Deal with what I've given you because that is how I read him and I stand by it.

 

[ranmaru]

In general, he is majorly stirring up the pot and generating reads and reactions. His playstyle is like Fate's and I see an attempt (though ugly for sure) to garner reactions and thus reads.

This is point by point?

 

[Reyth]

However now is the time for him to produce useable content or I will finally vote him.

 

[Reyth]

Ya, we can discuss any of the green things if you want.

 

[Reyth]

See if you are trying to read him through "pro-town" content you won't find it. That's not his style (just like Fate). But also like Fate, if you look beneath the surface, you see what he is actually getting at. The problem here is that he hasn't ultimately produced anything useful as a product of his queries and such; like an explanation on KK for instance. This brings him into the active-lurking catgeory.

 

[ranmaru]

Queries Swiss on Nich. Says Nich is VI. Should we policy lynch or just hope for
vig? Could be obv-newb-scum?.

Stating a possibility, asking Swiss thoughts on Nich, doesn’t actually judge any of nich’s actions. Is this protown?

Says prefers to read Swiss as town as a resource

Not scumhunting here. Anyone can say that. Is this pro-town?

Asks T-Block who he would investigate if he was a cop. Asks if I am analytical or
gut. Asks Nabe if he would go to lylo with himself. Tells Ran to hold himself in the town
category; will look scummy trying to get a scum read on him (??). Says PLSD must be scum
because T-Block and Swiss are town. Ran prob scum, tells T-Block to investigate Ran.

Rolefishing. Don’t know why he asked that. Lylo =/= scumhunting. Telling me to just hope he is town =/= Pro-town. Uses POE on PLSD, not scumhunting. Anyone can say that. Is this all pro-town?

Says Nich is prob scum
and town liability if not.

Not scumhunting, just stating a possibility that Nich is prob scum as a reason to lynch him. Is this pro-town?

Says he will get a scum
read on Swiss when reads diverge; until then Swiss is town

Leaving the option open of Swissscum when he gets the opportunity to, IE 'when his reads diverge'. Is this pro-town?

Agrees that PLSD is not conf-town.

Is this pro-town?

 

[Reyth]

Stating a possibility, asking Swiss thoughts on Nich, doesn’t actually judge any of nich’s actions. Is this protown?

He has judged Nich's actions and correctly. He is genuinely describing his frustration with Nich and how Nich's bad play is harmful to town. I agree with him and share his frustration. Town sentiments.

Not scumhunting here. Anyone can say that. Is this pro-town?

Check the quote below that where he clairifies. And his idea here is SPOT ON +town. He clearly states he will be watching Swiss for read-vote divergence. That is EXACTLY how a pro-town player approaches it (one of any skill).

Rolefishing. Don’t know why he asked that. Lylo =/= scumhunting. Telling me to just hope he is town =/= Pro-town. Uses POE on PLSD, not scumhunting. Anyone can say that. Is this all pro-town?

It is a horrifically ugly way to get reactions on the various slots. He is scum hunting with each of those questions. The fact you cannot see it is why it works.

Not scumhunting, just stating a possibility that Nich is prob scum as a reason to lynch him. Is this pro-town?

Properly stating the situation as a threat to town which bad play is because bad play is never NK'ed and is mislynched in LYLO.

Leaving the option open of Swissscum when he gets the opportunity to, IE 'when his reads diverge'. Is this pro-town?

Yup and explained above.

Is this pro-town?

Yup because the idea was ludicrous in the first place.

 

[ranmaru]

1. So he states it is anti-town. But he also said Nich was prob scum, this is not pro-town. It's fencesitting.
2. He basically states IGMEOU to his town read. Useless.
3. He isn't getting reactions, and it is not pro-town. Tell me if this could be done with scum motivation.
4. He's mentioning it D1, that shouldn't be a concern, he should be looking for scum not being worried that Nich might be scum.
5. No it isn't. Check #2.
6. This is wifom. >_<

 

[ranmaru]

Tblock, reads on Jpg, Grey, and Reyth again?

 

[ranmaru]

And he leaves. Nice.