My bad.
My point still stands -- everyone who thinks Bush shouldn't have made it in, look to the Democrats for not finding anyone better to vote for. The last two elections we had where Bush won were both lesser of two evils.
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Tips vs MetaKnight
- Thread starter Mew2King
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My point still stands -- everyone who thinks Bush shouldn't have made it in, look to the Democrats for not finding anyone better to vote for. The last two elections we had where Bush won were both lesser of two evils.
It shouldn't have been so close that that mattered.
Daimonster
Smash Journeyman
Bush made it through 2 elections...kinda broken. Bush and MK...pretty on topic imo.
brinboy789
Smash Champion
yoshi i have no idea, but its agreed on by both boards. i think it has something to do with grabs. snake is neutral. there are threads on both boards and the majority (around 90%) of people think that theyre neutral except for a select few who obviously want MK banned and is saying that MK obviously has advantage. DK would be neutral except for tornado ****.
Deception
Smash Ace
DK is pretty neutral against MK IMO, maybe he might have an advantage if you can counter the Tornado well enough. Would fastfalling a nair or bair go through the tornado?
DK is not neutral so don't bring him up.
Yoshi can chain MK to very high percentages with grab release chain. Then he can Usmash him for the KO. The problem is Yoshi's grab is slow. MK has no lag. So unless MK makes a mistake he's not getting grabbed. The reason it is neutral on both boards is because MK players want you to think MK is not broken and Yoshi boards want to think Yoshi doesn't suck.
Snake is still under debate by top players. I'm not a Snake player in the least. I can't comment.
Master Raven
Smash Master
Yoshi doesn't suck.
Daimonster
Smash Journeyman
This, gives me enough evidence that you should quit posting in this thread. You have no understanding of the MK vs Yoshi matchup if these are your claims. They are completely false.
Let's get back on the topic of why MK is taking over all tournaments at the highest level of play. I sincerely do not believe it is because he is popular.
Dwiguitar
Smash Rookie
I sincerely believe this is just M2K's way of saying "please don't ban MK, here have some tips from and you surely will able to beat him."
But let's face the real truth. Anyone in the whole wide world could have posted this same thread and would definitely get about 10 replies before drowning in the (well earned) avalanche of complaints people have about metaknight. In a real situation, most of those tips are as usefull as Bowser's infinite jump. Most metaknights foolish enough to act as predictably as M2K suggested will now read this and stop the practice... in other words you just made thousands of MK's significantly harder to beat, congratulations.
Those tips do not erase the fact that around 70% of the roster has NO way of beating a metaknight, simply because they don't have moves fast enough to punish any lag you suggested. Here's a list of moves fast enough to punish a "laggy"metaknight:
Wolf's down smash
Rob's Down smash and ftilt
Marths up b and possibly down smash
Fox's up smash
Kirby's running up smash (on tornado end)
Snake's f-tilt
Peach's ftilt (sometimes fails)
G&W's turtle (cause shield or dodge it will hit anyway if you fast fall for the landing hit)
Anything else is too slow if metaknight shields or dodges, test it yourself.
What good is it to have a weakspot if almost none of the cast can exploit it?
I say your arguments are a load of garbage when applied to the entire cast. On snake? Hell yeah you can own a metaknight using tht advice. On everyone else? Bull-youknowtherest.
Have a nice day.
But let's face the real truth. Anyone in the whole wide world could have posted this same thread and would definitely get about 10 replies before drowning in the (well earned) avalanche of complaints people have about metaknight. In a real situation, most of those tips are as usefull as Bowser's infinite jump. Most metaknights foolish enough to act as predictably as M2K suggested will now read this and stop the practice... in other words you just made thousands of MK's significantly harder to beat, congratulations.
Those tips do not erase the fact that around 70% of the roster has NO way of beating a metaknight, simply because they don't have moves fast enough to punish any lag you suggested. Here's a list of moves fast enough to punish a "laggy"metaknight:
Wolf's down smash
Rob's Down smash and ftilt
Marths up b and possibly down smash
Fox's up smash
Kirby's running up smash (on tornado end)
Snake's f-tilt
Peach's ftilt (sometimes fails)
G&W's turtle (cause shield or dodge it will hit anyway if you fast fall for the landing hit)
Anything else is too slow if metaknight shields or dodges, test it yourself.
What good is it to have a weakspot if almost none of the cast can exploit it?
I say your arguments are a load of garbage when applied to the entire cast. On snake? Hell yeah you can own a metaknight using tht advice. On everyone else? Bull-youknowtherest.
Have a nice day.
_Phloat_
Smash Champion
Not agreeing with this or disagreeing, but the turtle is no longer safe on MK..
The SL eats it.
Ayaz18
Smash Champion
call me scrubish, but when using Falcon against MK all I want is 80% then wait for the opportunity for a well spaced Dsmash or Fsmash, because I like to think of MK like a timer, for ever second he's alive you gain 1 % damage. So by nature I like to kill him quickly before I get any damage and BEFORE i get ***** by a shuttle loop or Dsmash.
hotgarbage
Smash Lord
Are you talking about how if you stop the tornado at a specific height you get no lag upon landing?
Yeah, it takes 7 frames to drop your shield. I'll get the info on the dsmash later- was too lazy todayHm, he does. I need to re-test that then. It's been a good while so maybe I've forgotten. While I'm at it I think I'll get the frames for his dsmash just for kicks.
Emblem Lord
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BUM it really doesn't matter if you decide not tell people.
You underestimate humans.
Fighting games are broken by humans all the time and this game will be no different. Everyone will find out what you know sooner or later so it doesn't matter.
Either way MK is going to be banned at this point.
TOO many people want him gone.
You underestimate humans.
Fighting games are broken by humans all the time and this game will be no different. Everyone will find out what you know sooner or later so it doesn't matter.
Either way MK is going to be banned at this point.
TOO many people want him gone.
∫unk
Smash Master
Of course their win percentage will go down, but they're still going to win.
The question wasn't what will happen to pro MK's win %, it was will they still win with other characters.
The answer is yes, they are probably better than you no matter who they play or who you play.
They will have to work harder now for their wins, which means they will screw up more and lose here and there, but they will all still be very very good.
Bnzaaa
Smash Ace
Yoshi's pivot grab is pretty quick I think.
Any attack can clash with the glide attack. Or you can powershield it if you see it coming. You won't suffer from as much shield stun and you can punish Meta Knight that way.
Bowser can chain Meta Knight across the stage. What do you guys think of that matchup?
Any attack can clash with the glide attack. Or you can powershield it if you see it coming. You won't suffer from as much shield stun and you can punish Meta Knight that way.
Bowser can chain Meta Knight across the stage. What do you guys think of that matchup?
Marth can punish a laggy Meta Knight with side b. Everyone should know how to deal with Game and Watch's turtle by now right?
Kazydai
Smash Apprentice
I find it funny that Sakurai's own character is God-Tier, and his friend Hideo Kojima's character is second to that. That's very funny. Very interesting. And they're not just good, they're completely broken beyond all reason.
Wow...
Wow...
Emblem Lord
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It's not funny.
It's pretty obvious.
I mean why wouldn't you make sure that you and your homies characters are the best?
It's pretty obvious.
I mean why wouldn't you make sure that you and your homies characters are the best?
Turbo Ether
Smash Master
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It was completely deliberate.
Sakurai: "Let's take all the best qualities a character can possibly have, that make sense, and give them to this character".
Emblem Lord
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Have you seen Snake's tilts?
Either Sakurai really loves his friends or he doesn't have eyes, because that crap is just inexcusable.
Either Sakurai really loves his friends or he doesn't have eyes, because that crap is just inexcusable.
Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
For those who have not seen the actual range on Snake's tilts.
lol.
lol.
Razmakazi
Smash Champion
Lol xD it's funny everytime I see that. What I really hate about snake though is his weight. holy crap. ;xFor those who have not seen the actual range on Snake's tilts.
lol.
Metro Knight
Smash Ace
ty, I am going to quote your post for the Link vs. MK match up thread
Napilopez
Smash Lord
That is just ridiculous. When it comes to snake, I think Sakurai wanted to ensure he would be a decent character even though his gameplay was so drastically different from everyone else's. When it comes to MK, I think really all sakurai wanted to do was make him really quick...
Too quick.
Too quick.
LuigiKing
Smash Lord
M2K vs. Overswarm. Dun dun dun...
Seriously though, I appreciate this thread so much (especially coming from M2K), even if in the long run I still can't beat MKs. I doubt any pro MKs out there have any tips for a Luigi main do they? The matchup is absolutely rediculous, and the only kills I get are lucky jab -> UpB.... It is quite embarrassing. I am going to attempt to put this into practice though.
Seriously though, I appreciate this thread so much (especially coming from M2K), even if in the long run I still can't beat MKs. I doubt any pro MKs out there have any tips for a Luigi main do they? The matchup is absolutely rediculous, and the only kills I get are lucky jab -> UpB.... It is quite embarrassing. I am going to attempt to put this into practice though.
Here is something that may help:
Half of all the best Meta players should quit Meta and pick up a low or middle tier character, then use all of their knowledge about Meta, and win some tournaments with out using Meta themselves.
M2k( or anyone else) , you say Meta is not broken and shouldn't be banned, you gave us a thread with tips, lets see you take your own advice. Pick up Falcon, Ganon, Fox, or Sheik, advance their metagame, then show us how beatable high level Metaknights are with mid or low tier characters.
Id LOVE to see you take on DSF or DOJOs Metaknight with a mid or low tier character, in theory, Meta is not broken right? So if you take your own advice, you should be able to go toe to toe with the best Metaknights without having to use Metaknight yourself.
This applies to ANY high level Metaknight player, please, if you dont think he warrants a ban, please SHOW us, dont tell us. Meta is beatable? Go out and beat him!
Half of all the best Meta players should quit Meta and pick up a low or middle tier character, then use all of their knowledge about Meta, and win some tournaments with out using Meta themselves.
M2k( or anyone else) , you say Meta is not broken and shouldn't be banned, you gave us a thread with tips, lets see you take your own advice. Pick up Falcon, Ganon, Fox, or Sheik, advance their metagame, then show us how beatable high level Metaknights are with mid or low tier characters.
Id LOVE to see you take on DSF or DOJOs Metaknight with a mid or low tier character, in theory, Meta is not broken right? So if you take your own advice, you should be able to go toe to toe with the best Metaknights without having to use Metaknight yourself.
This applies to ANY high level Metaknight player, please, if you dont think he warrants a ban, please SHOW us, dont tell us. Meta is beatable? Go out and beat him!
That's pretty ridiculous. Let's pretend we were in the melee days and arguing that Sheik is just too good and needs to be banned. Would you argue:
"To any Shiek player, PROVE Sheik isn't broken. Go out and beat Sheik with Ness or Bowser or Yoshi!"
I would speculate not, and I bet that top Sheiks in melee won't be beating other top Sheiks using Ness, Bowser, or Yoshi. Why should they? They don't play those characters, and it's obvious that the top tier is going to do pretty well against the lower guys anyway (they are top for a reason after all).
The burden of proof is solidly on the side of those wanting to ban Meta Knight. It's your job to prove that he really is as bad as you say.
The whole culture is really sad at this point though; whatever happened to responding to a great challenge by trying to improve yourself? Even if Meta Knight were actually broken, this sort of posting is all wrong. We should be seeing floods of post about "How can I change my play to win against Meta Knight?" rather than floods of "Let's ban Meta Knight so I can win". Only after it becomes clear through real results that legitimate and extreme dedication to changing one's play to win over Meta Knight doesn't work would half of what you people are posting be reasonable. This thread's original post is of the right spirit, and it's disheartening that more people wouldn't appreciate it even if they don't need the tips. It's not just smash even; the Pokemon community seems to have led the charge on "don't change yourself; change the rules" which is, of course, to the ruin of us all.
To be on topic though, I found the advice on dealing with Shuttle Loop pretty decent. I hadn't examined the properties of it very thoroughly and was probably assuming it was more fatal than it actually is. How would a Mr. Game & Watch key work out as a straight above solution to Shuttle Loop? I did do the turtle vs grounded Shuttle Loop range test (yeah, grounded Shuttle Loop BARELY outranges it which means it probably outranges every aerial this side of Ike), but I'm curious just how fast that move actually is. Has Meta Knight's frame data been accumulated somewhere non-obvious (or just buried beyond the first few pages of his board)? I've only seen frame data for Mr. Game & Watch and Wolf lying around the boards despite how incredibly important it is in general.
Nic64
Smash Lord
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this is a good thing!
banning MK would not change the fact that those 70% of the roster are garbage in general, and will still get ***** hard by DDD and snake, along with 10 or so other characters. the game was badly designed, link and captain falcon aren't crawling up out of the garbage bin if MK goes away. to the characters that don't suck, yes, MK is punishable. and honestly it's more like half or maybe 60% of the roster IMO but that's semantics, point is, the bad characters aren't suddenly going to be tournament viable without MK. I'm not totally sure where I stand on a ban anymore, I might even be leaning towards it now, but this argument is just crap, bad characters are bad because they get owned by a large number of characters, a character with one counter is not bad at all.
Minwu
Smash Journeyman
I was not aware that MKs use thier full ftilt every time.
hahaha!
you will never win a pro tourney with characters like fox, shiek and so on, because they are crap!
show me a guy, who won with characters like pichu against ken, m2k and co in a melee tourney, hahaha!
maybe he can show, how to win a tourney without using meta, and this is possible, other players showed it
but you wont win with chars like low/mid tiers against gaws, snakes, robs, pikachus, falcos, ddds and so on!
1048576
Smash Master
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In melee, good fox's eventually beat sheik.
In brawl, we need to see some good snakes eventually beat metaknight. That hasn't happened. If M2K wins because he is good, not because Metaknight is good, then he needs to prove it by winning with any other character.
In brawl, we need to see some good snakes eventually beat metaknight. That hasn't happened. If M2K wins because he is good, not because Metaknight is good, then he needs to prove it by winning with any other character.
BrawlLover
Smash Champion
might as well ban brawl
Master Raven
Smash Master
Are you actually skeptical of M2K's skill because he uses MK?
And for the record he has won with DDD before.
BrawlLover
Smash Champion
snake is amazing.
Too extreme.
A more realistic challenge would be for M2K to pick up Snake and beat all of the high end MK's (DSF, Dojo, Azen) with Snake.
Mew2King
King of the Mews
My Snake 2-0d Chillin's MK in tourney, 2 stock mid % and 1 stock low %, this was at Critical Hit 4, which was the last recent major MD/VA tourney. The match is at least even or snake has the advantage. I have also done BETTER vs azens lucario , dsfs snake, fortes mk, most of Florida, among many other people using DDD rather than MK. I'm really mad that right after I put tons of hours into MK (my favorite character, back when people were whining about Snake) suddenly overswarm and chillin decide to tell everyone he should be banned, and now people are just using those as excuses instead of trying to get better. Take greg for instance, who doesn't even use MK, and having MK banned would only make it easier for him, being a Snake main, he is extremely against MK being banned because he knows it would be ********. Afro Thunder and HRNut feel the same too (2 top FL players) and Seibrik feels DDD could be the best in the game. Azen also says's it's dumb. There is no reason for me to have to prove anything; I have already proved lots, but people overlook it.
memphischains
Smash hhkj'
people just need to deal
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