Toon Link General Information Discussion Thread

[Theodrassil]

i personally never learnt any ATs in brawl since i only played it casually, and can still manage IZACs on here, so previous exp definatly isnt a big deal with being able to do them here too

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Considering what has happened over the past few days, I believe this is appropriate and full of symbolism. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gttXeZxeVE8
Let's see who can figure out why XD.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Just dropping this here:

I actually wondered for a bit why they used the cel-shaded incarnation of Link and especially Zelda in particular in an advert that wasn't related to Smash Bros. I then came around to an out-there theory that them using Toon Link and Toon Zelda randomly in that advert could be foreshadowing the future use in advertising a new cel-shaded LoZ game. Or it could be me looking too much into things.

 

[Malkasaur]

So, I'm looking at what TInk can do. He can cancel his DAir's landing lag and he's got toss canceling. Seems pretty good so far.

 

[Oniric Spriter]

I actually wondered for a bit why they used the cel-shaded incarnation of Link and especially Zelda in particular in an advert that wasn't related to Smash Bros. I then came around to an out-there theory that them using Toon Link and Toon Zelda randomly in that advert could be foreshadowing the future use in advertising a new cel-shaded LoZ game. Or it could be me looking too much into things.

I hope it's the former.

 

[ChikoLad]

I actually wondered for a bit why they used the cel-shaded incarnation of Link and especially Zelda in particular in an advert that wasn't related to Smash Bros. I then came around to an out-there theory that them using Toon Link and Toon Zelda randomly in that advert could be foreshadowing the future use in advertising a new cel-shaded LoZ game. Or it could be me looking too much into things.

I'm pretty sure they did it simply because they fit the cutesy tone of the trailer much better than the realistic Link and Zelda.

Samus being thrown in there was just a wildcard, though.

 

[Curious Villager]

I actually wondered for a bit why they used the cel-shaded incarnation of Link and especially Zelda in particular in an advert that wasn't related to Smash Bros. I then came around to an out-there theory that them using Toon Link and Toon Zelda randomly in that advert could be foreshadowing the future use in advertising a new cel-shaded LoZ game. Or it could be me looking too much into things.

It was probably to fit the bright and colourful atmosphere that advert had going on as Toon Link and Toon Zelda are probably the most colourful Link and Zelda in the series. But I guess they could have probably also gone for the A Link Between Worlds designs too as that game was probably a bit more relevant for the 3DS generation. Then again, I heard the Toon designs are just the more popular designs in Japan. Just my two cents I guess. Eitherway, it was nice to see them in the adverts though imo.

 

[Lobos]

I can't play aggressive with TL anymore......just spam and win lol

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

I was wondering if I could bring to everyone's attention another way to do the bomb fake out. All I can say is that it works in brawl so I presume it works in smash 4, though it wouldn't hurt to have someone confirm it for me.

Everyone is currently aware of two ways of doing it.

Variation 1: pull bomb, jump backwards, throw bomb backwards in direction you are moving at around the peak of your jump, instantly catch the bomb with an aerial. (then obviously cancel the lag of the aerial with a bomb throw; I won't bother saying this for the others)
Cons: in a real match, people will figure out fairly quickly what to expect when they see you jumping backwards towards them with a bomb, so yeah, it's a bit telegraphed atm.

Variation 2: pull bomb, dash in any direction, JC throw the bomb forwards, dash forwards asap, jump and catch the bomb with an aerial.
Cons: it must be started from a decent way away and it's not all that easy to find that space all the time.

I believe that this next variation covers the weaknesses of the two above, and used in conjunction with each other, they will all become less predictable and make this tech far more viable.

Variation 3: pull bomb, jump forwards, throw bomb forwards just before you land, dash forwards as soon as you can, jump and catch bomb with aerial.
With this, now it doesn't matter if you're jumping backwards or forwards. It also means that you don't have to wait till you land and wait for the JC throw forwards in order to dash forward and catch the bomb, which also cuts down on the space required. I'd imagine that there will be some spamming variation i.e. approaching arrow/boomerang that will leave just enough time to throw the bomb forward before you land that will work into this nicely.

If you already knew then good job. I hadn't seen anyone doing it in any vids and the primary goal here is to make this knowledge common place. Every Toon needs to know this.
I believe that utilising all three variations when they are appropriate (i.e. not forcing them) will greatly increase the unpredictability and viability of this tech sequence in actual matches.

 

[Mota]

@ Fox Is Openly Deceptive why you so sexy and smart...

It works!
Did it on Fair, Nair, and Dair. But couldn't connect with RAR Bair, needs more testing.

Jump forward > bomb throw (around the middle of the short hop) > dash attack is also really easy.

It's even easier to do when your back is turned like Variation 1.
Back turned > SH bomb throw forward > Land > SH nair/fair/dair > bomb land/throw cancel

So there's a nice mixup for the bomb fake out, to fake em out even more. Fakeception.

Why did I never see this stuff from Toon Link mains in Brawl?

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Thanks for confirming it for me Mota.

Why did I never see this stuff from Toon Link mains in Brawl?

It's quite simple really. In brawl there was less incentive to use aerials while holding bombs because you couldn't cancel lag, so already there is going to be less point to doing aerials with bombs. Then, if you wanted to do aerials holding bombs in brawl you had ZAC (not to mention that z-dropping bombs on the ground was much easier), so there was no real point to this method of catching the bomb (competitively speaking) when there were better alternatives. One reason why they were better alternatives was because in brawl the bomb would hurt you if it hit them and you were too close, so the idea of staying within the blast radius of your bomb while tossing it towards them all for the sake of catching it again, just wasn't worth it and was only likely to get yourself blown up. SSB4 on the other hand, well this game seems to be made for this tech. This tech alone puts Toon above regular link because he can't do it with those beefy arms of his (at least this was the case in brawl).

 

[Mota]

Sounds about right. The change to bombs not hurting Toon Link is the greatest change of all time

I've seen decent attention and discussion on Link on the boards, not so much Toon Link though. Link has improved from his Brawl version (which isn't saying much), but I believe he won't rise above mid tier. Too many rush down in your face characters for Link's poorer mobility, and projectile game to handle.

So long as we don't have a Brawl MK level Match up in the high tier characters, Toon Link has some potential!

Thirsty for some high level tournament Toon Link results and vids.

When are you going to get the game FIOD?

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

When are you going to get the game FIOD?

See, I did't own a 3ds or a Wii-U. It made no sense for me to buy two new consoles in the span of a few months to play two games which were arguably the same, and so I had to choose. It wasn't a hard choice. I'm waiting for the Wii-U version.
Blasphemy I'm sure.

 

[Hyro]

Wow iZAC works nice. I didn't test it out that much since it seems pretty difficult but that's good news for when the wii u version comes out. We can dash to catch our bombs too??? Reminds me of the period in brawl where we kept coming up with new things. iBomb would be of no use since air dodges are laggy. We basically have it though since were invincible to our bombs upon contact with the opponent. I gotta try out this new stuff.

 

[lijero13ss]

As far as the BFO goes, i have been practicing using it and the JC bomb throw in real battles. So far the JC bomb throw seems to work fine, but i have had difficulty following up with the nair/fair. You have to be pretty close in order to perform that follow up, so that's just more practice for me.

For BFO, i found that if i first throw the bomb backwards a couple times, they tend to roll backwards/shield. Then when i change it up by BFO (i tend to follow with dair for some reason), they seem to be surprised by it and shield from the dair, then when the bomb is throw, i am already close and follow with nair/fair

ALl in all, the latter is a bit harder to pull off. However, with practice it can be viable, especially with the 3rd variation @ Fox Is Openly Deceptive mentioned.

 

[Unkown Hero]

Hey guys. I found at two different ways to still use Toon link's dair viably.

1) If you opponent miss the sweetspot ledge and goes past but can't land on the stage, after their moves is done, use Toon Link's dair to hit them downwards before they can grab the ledge

or

2) Only on slope edge stages. Just before the grab the ledge from below, if you use Toon Link's dair, his sword will go through the stage will still having a few frames of active before he pulls it out of the ground. This one is hard to hit but more satisfying

 

[Mota]

See, I did't own a 3ds or a Wii-U. It made no sense for me to buy two new consoles in the span of a few months to play two games which were arguably the same, and so I had to choose. It wasn't a hard choice. I'm waiting for the Wii-U version.
Blasphemy I'm sure.

Ahh I'm the opposite. I had a 3ds but no Wii-u.

Oh so tempted to get the Wii-u though. Gamecube control is calling me.
However I can't justify getting one, not all that interested in Nintendo games outside of Smash. Games I would get: Mario Kart 8, Hyrule Warriors (Dynasty Warriors <3) uhh that's it.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

I was battling my friend earlier, Toon Link vs. Peach. I went back to my old strategies in Brawl - camp like crazy. Bomb, Boomerang, Bow & Arrow mixups left and right and played as absolutely annoying as possible. Peach has gotten much better range on fair and bair, and it's enough to out-prioritize Toon Link's blade. I never get in the air with Peach unless I can bait an air dodge or get her off of Boomerang hitstun. I could get him to like 150% damage, but Peach is durable. Meanwhile, if she gets her hands on me, it takes a DSmash, bair, FThrow, and a fair to finish me off just past 110%. She overpowers Toon Link and beats his range, so I am almost NEVER close to Peach because of that. Especially since my friend has played me for years and knows my tricks, so he knows how to bait and punish me.

I managed to win, but barely. Even with all the damage I racked up on her, it took only a few hits from her to put me back into danger.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Could someone check something for me real quick?
You guys know about this right? http://smashboards.com/threads/air-...ccurs-prior-to-the-auto-cancel-window.373035/
Well I wanted to know if Toon's U-air still has that thing where if you use it just before you land (i.e. when you are almost touching the ground to the point that you'll land an instant later), the move doesn't appear to come out and it results in a lagless landing. In brawl, if you did it you'd see a flash of light which I always thought was nice. If Uair hasn't been changed it will probably be the move we'll want to land with to get lagless airdodges. If you watch the vid in the thread linked, Diddy does this with Dair.
If Uair has been changed in this regard, then it wouldn't hurt to see if any of our other aerials auto cancel before the move comes out.

 

[Mota]

I don't check the other boards so thanks for the info

It works!
Welp airdodge is still strong as ever with this tech.

Tested SH > instant Airdodge > Uair just before landing
Cancels the airdodge landing lag to lagless, so you can jab or shield straight away. However the window to do this is a couple frames just before you land, but very doable in terms of consistency with a little practice. As @ Fox Is Openly Deceptive mentioned you'll get the same white star flash as in Brawl.

Uair is definitely the most easiest to do this with, but for the sake of testing I tried it with dair, bair, fair, nair, zair.
Dair is a no brainer doesn't work. Dair lifts you up on startup.
Bair I got the bair landing lag animation no matter how close I tried.
Fair was same as bair.
I was able to get it with Nair, but it's more difficult to pull off then Uair imo.
Zair got the usual landing lag which makes sense.

I didn't test very long with most of them, so maybe fair and bair do work, but it would be still harder then Uair.

TL;DR Uair just as you land from an airdodge is the best option for cancelling airdodge landing lag.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

I am continually amazed at how similar Toon's underlying properties are in this game. Hooray for lagless airdodges.

Oh and thank god we still get the flash. That's the most important bit.

 

[Mota]

Without the flash what's the point..
I get the feeling a lot from Brawl was just ported over to Sm4sh

Seeing characters with all these awesome custom moves makes me sad about Toon Link's customs.
If Toon Link got Links kill move death bow that would've helped so much for our killing problem.

 

[Dr[?}]

What are some good options for the ledge game? I hardly even go for this. I'll just try and set up bombs

 

[Yackabean]

Arrows can disrupt a bunch of recoveries as usual, like Fox and falco's.
Running of with nair or fair is still a strong ledge guardin option too. Personally I don't run off much since toon link's up B has been nerfed and I'm not used to it yet still.

As for this throwing the bomb forwards and dashing to grab it. It works like a charm! Now I'm sure someone mentioned this the other week about recatching a bomb after it exploded on someone. But is this worth taking note of? It looks lethal as hell if you can explode a bomb on someone and just re catch a new one out of thin air! xD

 

[Mota]

Yeah I came across it while doing the BFO. At a certain window the bomb explodes dealing damage, yet you're able to still catch it. Problem is it only works at a very precise moment, so it's not reliable enough to pull on a moving enemy. It's hard enough to get consistently on a training dummy.

 

[Mota]

Roll Cancel Pivot Grab

Anyone know if we got something like this

Dat Zelda Grab Range

oh baby
http://gfycat.com/PleasantKaleidoscopicHippopotamus

 

[Unkown Hero]

Roll Cancel Pivot Grab

Anyone know if we got something like this

Dat Zelda Grab Range

oh baby
http://gfycat.com/PleasantKaleidoscopicHippopotamus

WHAT THE ****. That range is huge.

 

[Yackabean]

Tested it there, our range is fixed to the tether unfortunately. But it looks better than the consistent sliding pivot grab we alays have now.

 

[Mota]

I keep using Dthrow out of Brawl habit. Can't followup with squat.

Our best low percent throw now is uthrow? Go for an uair.
Back throw for kills.

 

[Rioru]

Hey, I think there's a big difference in some stage (I tested only final destination versions) concerning the JC Throw, in Arena Ferox I can easily slide, making the JC Throw -> Dash -> Catch with an aerial pretty easy but on Tortimer Island it seems like I barely slide. Am I the only one having this issue ?

Try to JC Throw upward then shield, in Tortimer Island the bomb will drop just above you, but in some other stage like Arena Ferox, it will drop slightly behind because of the slide you had.

If everybody have this issue, it means there's other differences in stages between final destination versions beside the ledge. There's some stage where you won't be able to do some ATs or it'll be harder on them. (I can't do the JC Throw + Catch on Tortimer Island but I can do it 95% of the time on Arena Ferox)

 

[DoodleDuck97]

Hi guys so I have one simple question anyone else hate Toon Link's new Down air you know how it doesn't bounce off people instead it drags them done with you ?

 

[Scamper52596]

Hi guys so I have one simple question anyone else hate Toon Link's new Down air you know how it doesn't bounce off people instead it drags them done with you ?

I actually love Toon Link's new Dair. It has more knock back, so I've been able to K.O. with it way more than I ever did in Brawl. You might not like it if you used to spike opponents with it, but if you missed you would SD, so I never really dared to Dair anyway. No pun intended.

 

[Yackabean]

I miss the old pogo-sticking. It was much safer on shields too. The spikes stil there but requires a stupid set up that anyone can predict.

 

[Mota]

Can no longer drop a bomb and dair the ground to bomb slide anymore.

No wind properties on dair? What's the point of life

 

[Unkown Hero]

Can no longer drop a bomb and dair the ground to bomb slide anymore.

No wind properties on dair? What's the point of life

There is actually wind properties on opponents, just not bombs. Shame thou.

 

[Yackabean]

Can confirm Bomb DACUS returns. (Up smash with Bomb)
DACUS is possible on the 3DS but it's not as effective and is insanely difficult to pull the timing off on a 3DS.
In order to even perform a DACUS you have to do the following:
Dash > A > Up + Grab
Some characters like DK and Robin have a small DACUS from doing it on a normal 3DS. Hopefully on GC controller they'll all have much longer slides!

On the note of Bomb DACUS though, currently it's almost frame perfect. When you grab the bomb with the dash attack, pulling off the up-smash is near impossible. I can only do it on Training mode on 1/4 speed. It's cool that it returns though.

 

[Mota]

Can confirm Bomb DACUS returns. (Up smash with Bomb)

Noice. I didn't know this was in Brawl. Any cool uses for it? Does it slide further then our hyphen smash?

Considering what has happened over the past few days, I believe this is appropriate and full of symbolism. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gttXeZxeVE8
Let's see who can figure out why XD.

You never told us what you meant
Does it symbolise the spread of ebola at the time? Grabbing with a bomb?

The 2% nerf to the first hit of Nair is irking me more than it should lol.
Overall with the additional projectile damage nerfs it feels longer and harder to rack up damage. I'll hit with 3 different moves and it'll barely rack up 15%. Toon Link has always been about a lot of little hits, but it feels like a lot more work now. Esp when Lil Mac evens it out with 2 hits after you've spent a good minute running around throwing paper clips. Not rewarding. May need to pick up a secondary like DK for my big hit needs.

 

[Unkown Hero]

?
The 2% nerf to the first hit of Nair is irking me more than it should lol.
Overall with the additional projectile damage nerfs it feels longer and harder to rack up damage. I'll hit with 3 different moves and it'll barely rack up 15%. Toon Link has always been about a lot of little hits, but it feels like a lot more work now. Esp when Lil Mac evens it out with 2 hits after you've spent a good minute running around throwing paper clips. Not rewarding. May need to pick up a secondary like DK for my big hit needs.

Really? I get up to the mid % easy with Toon Link, it's just trying to land a KO move is my problem, though I have the smae problem with all the characters I play (but a little less with Lil mac for so reason)

 

[theamazinhazen]

Hey guys, not sure if this is the right forum to post in, but I'm pretty new to the competitive scene and am trying to work on Toon Link. I'm getting ok with him, but I'm looking for a guide to help me master using him competitively. I was hoping someone could point me in the right direction. Thanks!

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

So my favourite new AT just got better.
What's one of your biggest problems with the Bomb Lag Cancel? I don't know about you, but I've always been frustrated by the fact that you can only throw the bomb forwards. UNTIL NOW!
I just read something very interesting on the Peach boards.
"I assume this to be known, but since I haven't found anyone talking about it, you can actually choose the direction you want to throw the turnip by inputting the direction + A just before you press down B to cancel whatever you're doing.
This also opens up the possibility of smash throwing the turnip, since down B by itself just throws it normally. Nothing huge but more options are always welcome."
"The timing is kind of strict. Try sliding your fingers from A to B and see if it helps."
This is a big deal. I'd help test and confirm that Toon can do this too, but as you know I'm unable to. I'd imagine that it will be super easy with a c-stick as well, but in any case, this is the kind of thing that I would gladly change my control scheme around for to make it easier to perform. With a bomb in our hand, we can do anything.