Unfortunately, Dr. Mario is probably the worst character in the game

[StarLight42]

Sakurai doesn't know how to balance advantages and disadvantages and it pisses me off.


His ****ing attack power DOES NOTHING to compensate for his ABYSMAL recovery. He's basically just Little Mac without all the power.


Damn, I was really hyped when I first saw him in the leak. He was my awesome main in Melee. But here? He sucks. There's nothing I can do about it either

and no more patches, so unfortunately, he will probably stay terrible forever

 

[zmancb7]

I think this depends on how you play and what you want to accomplish with this game.

I play purely with friends and for glory mode in this game and I don't struggle with Doc that much to make me think he's the worst.

Offline, my main competition includes my less-smash experienced brother, a tournament level street fighter player and my smash mentor, and a bunch of casual smashers. So far, all have beaten me and been beaten by my Doc. I don't claim to be good at all but I certainly don't think he's the worst.

As for Glory mode, I do have trouble, I tell myself it's lag but really, I don't have all my skills honed in yet and some character match ups are tough. I gone back and forth with some decent players though and I think Doc is a viable option in this game.

I've always liked Mario in pretty much every game ever and Dr. Mario in Melee was my right-hand man, after Falco. Keep practicing the tech, feel free to add me too if you ever want to play. I'm always interested in seeing other people's play styles but NO ONE online plays him and I've yet to find someone on YouTube decent enough to watch.

 

[Kisatamura]

First off,

Second, I'm pretty sure that his recovery isn't as bad as Little Mac, or how most people imagine it. Look at the video thread to see how people recover with Doc. Pretty much anybody who isn't Little Mac that has been launched to the top blastzones at the edges of the stage can recover.

Third, even if he was the worst character (Which I'm pretty sure isn't since he doesn't have problems KOing or racking up damage by pills or combos) don't let this stop you from playing as Doc. Every character in this game is viable to an extent. I've played against 'top tier' characters in FG and at Tourneys repeatedly, and I haven't been mollywhopped. My point is that Doc can still win, and go back-forth like the above poster said. Outside of Dr. Tornado shenanigans, Doc doesn't have a game-changing mechanic like Diddy and his bananas but that doesn't mean all is lost. Besides, Doc's UpB out of shield is something that no other character has access to (Well except for Marth/Lucina and Meta Knight, but those kill later than Doc's).

Also, I play online. If you need to practice you can add my Nintendo ID so that we can do some dittos. Dr. Mario is somewhat under represented, but there's little tricks that most players won't know that Doc can do.

 

[Dobbston]

Dr. Mario can make to the other side under Battlefield without customizations, his recovery is not that bad.

 

[louie g]

Eh, bad or not, I still find him really enjoyable to use. He's a character that gets straight to the point, bash them skulls in with satisfying, screen-shaking punches,

He doesn't really have any gimmicks, or exaggerated weaknesses (I think his recovery is much more bearable than little mac's imo), and for that I can just jump in and play as him without too much complexity!

 

[A-money2121]

I wouldn't agree that Doctor Mario is the worst character in the game (in my opinion, that title goes to Little Mac... Sorry ..) Of course, I do admit that his recovery is not very good, but overall he does have some pretty powerful attacks overall. He has some nice aerials, like forward, back, and down aerial. Of course, he doesn't have much combo potential like his counterpart Mario, but he can be a character that someone could master someday.

 

[Meek Moths]

its always difficult to tell who is the actual worst character. that is because there is no worst character! yes, soemone has to be at the bottom of the tier list, but that does not mean its the worst charcter.

however, dr. mario is, along with other like olimar and swordfighter, one of the characters who are very noticeably worse than the top tier threats. and there is no denying to that.

 

[Kisatamura]

Maybe against Sheik and probably ZSS in my opinion. While Diddy is good I think some of Docs stuff like his pills and aerials result in the Diddy matchup being easier than it should be, though it's still in Diddy's favor. Playing against Sheik just requires massive outplaying.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Bad? Yes. Worst in the game? No. He's likely bottom 10-15 but I don't see him in the bottom 5. He's not an incredibly strong character and he's only really held back by the stupidest run speed decision I have ever encountered in Smash.

If you're calling him worst in the game I'm going to call that player deficiency. His flaws prevent him from leaving low/bottom tiers right now, however. But worst in the game? Lol, no.

And no he is not basically Little Mac without all of the power what the **** kind of comparison is that? For one he has Mario's ground and to an extent, air game. Comparing him to Little Mac is absolutely the silliest thing I've read about this character to date.

He is Mario with more damage and a better combo game but this is OVERCOMPENSATED by a lack of movement speed on either front to really make it super effective. If he had a running speed close to or parallel to Luigi I guarantee he would be out of bottom 10 immediately. Either that or if they juiced up his damage into literal god levels (10% on Utilt and Uair respectively would probably make him significantly stronger as well) and give him Melee B-Throw strength (2nd strongest B-Throw in Melee, only weaker than Ness!)

 

[LuCypha X]

I think with just 2 or 3 little changes (more killpower [melee Bthrow, melee fair], more hitstun on dthrow and less knockback [like diddy?], dmg buff, eventually a bit faster) he would be a very good character. Currently he's not but surely not the worst. With the second worst recovery in the game it's just fair to give him more options to kill his opponents.

 

[Capt. Tin]

First off,

Second, I'm pretty sure that his recovery isn't as bad as Little Mac, or how most people imagine it. Look at the video thread to see how people recover with Doc. Pretty much anybody who isn't Little Mac that has been launched to the top blastzones at the edges of the stage can recover.

Third, even if he was the worst character (Which I'm pretty sure isn't since he doesn't have problems KOing or racking up damage by pills or combos) don't let this stop you from playing as Doc. Every character in this game is viable to an extent. I've played against 'top tier' characters in FG and at Tourneys repeatedly, and I haven't been mollywhopped. My point is that Doc can still win, and go back-forth like the above poster said. Outside of Dr. Tornado shenanigans, Doc doesn't have a game-changing mechanic like Diddy and his bananas but that doesn't mean all is lost. Besides, Doc's UpB out of shield is something that no other character has access to (Well except for Marth/Lucina and Meta Knight, but those kill later than Doc's).

Also, I play online. If you need to practice you can add my Nintendo ID so that we can do some dittos. Dr. Mario is somewhat under represented, but there's little tricks that most players won't know that Doc can do.

I think the problem most people who pick up Doc do is they play him like SSB4 Mario and try doing Mario like things which ends up working poorly for them. I mained Doc in Melee and he feels relatively the same if I play him like I did in Melee.

 

[Will_]

Mid tier I feel. He doesn't overpower his opponent for free in the neutral game but has ways to get in. And when he gets in, doc lays down a lot of damage and then follows it up with many accessible ko moves. Poor recovery offsets this. It's pretty bad compared to most of the cast. Very gimpable and has to win 50/50 guesses to get back against certain characters.

 

[KeeblerGuy]

He is mid tier at best. Doc has a lot of tools that make his onstage presence very threatening. Pills for zoning, Dr. Tornado for punishing, dthrow and dtilt combos, great kill options, and great OOS options. His recovery is awful in a sense that if he takes a hit from any attack that has minor launch power after using tornado and double jump, he is as good as dead. It is frustrating and it actually turned me away from Doc at first. His horrible MUs are with DeDeDe, Falco, and pretty much anyone who has extended air time. But, Doc dominates anyone who has no zoning tools such as Captain Falcon, Donkey Kong, etc. He is a very niche character with obvious positives and negatives, which us why he is my main.

 

[Kisatamura]

Dedede to me is somewhat of an arguable even matchup: even though he has the range and air mobility, Dedede has to avoid Doc's pills and Doc has faster attack movement. It's kind of like a slower, heavier Marth. Falco though is a tough matchup.

Mid tier or low tier or Doc tier, I don't think tiers at this point of the game's life matter, especially since at least every character in this game has won at tourneys to prove at every character is at least viable. Doc unfortunately doesn't have as much of a player base as say, Mario so most of his playstyle/tricks is either unknown to most, or is somewhat limited to this board. Try using pills against the average FG player and they'll most likely get hit by the pills.

Tldr Doc's a solid character, essentially fitting his character archetype (well-balanced, easy to use, etc) though not overly strong. He was considered Mid-high or mid compared to the high tiers of Melee, and Shroomed did well with him. He'll most likely be like that in this game unless he's terribly outclassed in everything like Mario was in Brawl. And to my knowledge, both Marios aren't like that in this game.

 

[Sonicjamareiz]

no not even close. To be really honest there really isn't any "terrible" characters in this game I consider Doc like little mac strong on stage gimpable off stage but what GOOD player would allow that to happen?

 

[warionumbah2]

Low mid and I'm being generous. He's got a huge weakness against those with range(mainly swords) such as Marth,Lucina and Shulk. Same goes for Mario but of course he has his speed to back him up but Doc doesn't. Due to Doc not being represented at all he's usually placed in low tiers, he's viable but don't expect to beat the top tiers with him just cause every low tier isn't totally crap like Brawl and Melee doesn't mean you can always tough it out.

Maybe when the Mario bandwagon calms down maybe Doc will be in tournaments, he and Mario have a amazing frames on their attacks.

 

[Wii Twerk Trainer]

Yup he's the worst.

 

[Doctor_Mario]

I would call him pretty bad, but not the worst. The only thing that holds me back from giving him an "OK" rating is that he's not that ahead of power compared to Mario (It should be at least little mac strength, this is a slow character we're talking about) and his recovery is absolute ****. And he's not that speedy.

Otherwise, he's a perfectly balanced character.

 

[A-money2121]

its always difficult to tell who is the actual worst character. that is because there is no worst character! yes, soemone has to be at the bottom of the tier list, but that does not mean its the worst charcter.

however, dr. mario is, along with other like olimar and swordfighter, one of the characters who are very noticeably worse than the top tier threats. and there is no denying to that.

Oh come on, Olimar isn't THAT bad. I main him back in Brawl and he was great. Of course, having him nerfed in this game was a bum, however, his aerials and grab are still great. His Smash attacks have good range too. Of course, Brawl Olimar is better. But I wouldn't consider him the bottom of the barrel. I tend to beat a good amount of people with Olimar, as a matter of fact. In my opinion, he is kinda up there in MY tier list.

 

[Meek Moths]

Oh come on, Olimar isn't THAT bad. I main him back in Brawl and he was great. Of course, having him nerfed in this game was a bum, however, his aerials and grab are still great. His Smash attacks have good range too. Of course, Brawl Olimar is better. But I wouldn't consider him the bottom of the barrel. I tend to beat a good amount of people with Olimar, as a matter of fact. In my opinion, he is kinda up there in MY tier list.

exactly what im talking about. no character is the worst but sadly olimar ranks pretty low and your personal opinion will never sadly affect this. no one's ever will, it's just a fact

 

[Doctor_Mario]

Actually I change my mind, Dr. Mario is probably the worst character in Smash Bros 4 right now. Let me give you some reasons:

• He's not even that strong, he's a little improved from Mario but the slow speed just kills him.
• I can compare him to Ness in Melee. You can try all you want with him but you will get ****ed over. Try placing a really good Sheik/Rosalina/ZZS player vs a really good Dr. Mario player. You know who's going to win. He has limitations that prevent him from doing any real combos and sht.
  
• He lacks any good matchup. Even the incredibly slow characters will ruin him. Take DeDeDe or Ganondorf for example.
• He's slow. His power improvement isn't even worth it.
  
• He has a ****ty recovery and a smaller jump than Mario's.
• He's so easy to combo if you're good with ZZS/Sheik/Rosalina etc.
• The cape.

I main Dr. Mario and I will continue to main him, but these are my reasons why he's such a **** character.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I believe that calling Dr. Mario the worst is incredibly misinformed and generally focuses on his negative traits in a vacuum. Most reasons provided involve recovery and speed, and while I agree those are what put him in the low tiers for me, I see a few significant things holding him out of the bottom.

- Megavitamins are actually a very good projectile. No, really, despite the lag they are very diverse and let you do neat stuff and force approaches in various ways thanks to their extra bouncy properties. SH Megavitamin covers different options than a full hopped pill.
- His combo game is stellar but not Mario's, HOWEVER his strings are more damaging as a whole. The damage trade off overall isn't super worth it but it is notably better than Mario's.
- He has more kill moves in his kit, and while this seems small and it would be small, the way move staling works in this game makes this very important. Unlike Mario who usually wants a fresh USmash ready for a kill, Doc has a bunch of options. FSmash, no matter how it's spaced, kills at very low %s compared to Mario's (I believe 10% earlier which is actually REALLY good). DSmash is also stronger (kind of negligible but whatever), and Up+B adds to his kit of very diverse kill options. Up+B OoS being a kill move is also unbelievably amazing and nobody mentioning it makes me upset. You do realize that no other Up+B OoS can kill as reliably as Doc's barring Luigi's sweetspot, right? Factoring in rage Doc's Up+B turns into an atomic reactor.
- Frame data. His slow movement doesn't always let him optimally squeeze this stuff out, but it's there. When the enemy is in Dr. Mario's world (i.e. disadvantage or up close where you want them) they have to deal with Mario's strong startup frames but with slightly more damage.
- His MU with Dedede is hardly that bad, even Ganondorf isn't bad. Both of them I believe he does either equal or better than Mario on-stage because of megavitamins. Megavitamins reflect gordos and are, again, great for diverse options and D3 is a big fat target. He can inhale them but that makes him lag in place which is an entertaining punish to go for. Ganon has it even worse vs. Megavitamins, you'd think "Man Wizard's Dropkick" but the vitamins bounce at a nasty angle where Ganon can't reliably run under them when thrown properly, and Wizard's Dropkick will run into them as its trajectory is much more suited for straightforward projectile.
- Doc's cape can instantly ledgesnap AND reflect a projectile at the same time. Incredibly useful. It also has more applications on-stage if you're jumping and make a good read.
- Doc Tornado is an incredibly good move. Its priority is absolutely absurd. M@v, from his experience with Dabuz, believes that Doc Nado effectively shuts down a lot of Olimar's options. I've seen it beat Zard's Up+B from BELOW Doc. IDK what's up with it but we need to utilize it more.

There's so much more I could talk about but nothing tells me he's the worst in the game. Do I think he's below average? Probably. Highest I'd put him is like, 34-38, lowest would be 40-42 overall. It's easy to think he's unviable but I really don't agree with that logic and I think this is a result of really aggressive early metagame. Doc can't really DO aggressive play so maybe once it evens out we'll get a more solid perspective on this. Don't get me wrong, I don't disagree with the notion of him being below average, but I really don't think worst in the game either. I also blame this on the fact that a lot of people have come to the crossroads that having not great MUs vs. the top tiers makes you immediately awful. I don't think he has a single unwinnable MU in this game (maybe there's one but I'm not really feeling that way atm).

Wall of Medicine over.

 

[HeroMystic]

- Doc Tornado is an incredibly good move. Its priority is absolutely absurd. M@v, from his experience with Dabuz, believes that Doc Nado effectively shuts down a lot of Olimar's options. I've seen it beat Zard's Up+B from BELOW Doc. IDK what's up with it but we need to utilize it more.

If it's anything like Luigi's Cyclone, you can probably do some amazing stuff with it.

Has anyone tried to edgeguard with it?

 

[TTTTTsd]

If it's anything like Luigi's Cyclone, you can probably do some amazing stuff with it.

Has anyone tried to edgeguard with it?

I want to implement that into my game because no matter how you dice it, it's actually a strong move offstage. It can kill at 125-140% range I believe, and with nerfed SDI it connects really reliably. You can follow DI with it thanks to mashing the only risk is falling after you net the kill but if you're safe enough you could probably ACTUALLY do this.

Doc Tornado is a really good move and I think we should stop relegating it to recovery. Even people who don't main Dr. Mario (Zero, for instance) talked about how good this move was as far as priority and power is. Multihit moves have been buffed offensively and this is like, picture perfect evidence.

 

[Meek Moths]

Wall of Medicine over.

sorry dude i know you like the character but you have to compare him to others and when you do that you can clearly see he is in the top worst 10 chars, probably even top 5 worst

 

[TTTTTsd]

sorry dude i know you like the character but you have to compare him to others and when you do that you can clearly see he is in the top worst 10 chars, probably even top 5 worst

Most of the people saying this haven't given me anything to work with besides "Well his recovery is bad" and "he runs slow" and while I understand those are problems, when I have at least 3 or more other positive points to reinforce the character and then some that are all very valid and have not generally been contested, I begin to question this placement.

I'm not opposed to thinking he's bottom 10, the range I gave was at highest low mid and at worst, bottom 10. I don't know where he sits and making such a big claim before this game's first Apex even and calling it definitive seems audacious to me.

I chalk it down to low player base (really in retrospect he doesn't have a lot of active players for him) and under-representation. That and a lot of people early on tried to go at him like Mario and, well....

 

[Meek Moths]

i like doc way more than normal mario but it seems nintendo clearly made mario superior because he's the star of the franchise ._.

 

[TTTTTsd]

i like doc way more than normal mario but it seems nintendo clearly made mario superior because he's the star of the franchise ._.

I would never say Dr. Mario > Mario, that's objectively false. Mario has a more diverse kit and very good options compared to Doc (Mario's MU spread is much cleaner and well organized compared to Doc's), but I think Doc has his own traits that let him do his own thing...reasonably ok, I suppose?

I could be youthful, inexperienced and wrong, but I don't think of him as one of the worst in the game. But I do rank him below Mario and below average as a whole.

 

[Doctor_Mario]

i like doc way more than normal mario but it seems nintendo clearly made mario superior because he's the star of the franchise ._.

Or because he kicked tons of ass in Melee.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I will leave it on this note, Dr. Mario can NOT be mained solo. That's not a good idea. Carry a bunch of secondaries that can plug up his weak spots. I have a diverse pool of secondaries, those being Luigi, Falco, and Captain Falcon, who all cover very different niches and applications. With all these in mind I can effectively switch if Dr. Mario can't' take me to the gold, and I am more than ok with this (I also run Ganon but that's just for funsieeees)

Oh and Doc is probably better in doubles IMO. I think he has more application there than in singles overall and his D-Throw is a lot better for cooperative efforts and combos. But hey, IDK!

 

[HeroMystic]

Doc is a tad better than Mario in Melee. Mario is clearly superior in this game but Doc definitely isn't top 5 worst.

 

[Meek Moths]

I would never say Dr. Mario > Mario

i said i like doc more than mario, not that mario is better

i actually stated that mario is way better than doc in this game

 

[TTTTTsd]

Oh I'm well aware of that lol. He's way more fun IMO but it's unfortunate that he got the short end this time. Unless Sakurai is all like "Yeah we lied about no new patches" and Doc gets uberbuffed when Mewtwo comes out LOL.

That's really the last chance at him being any better as a character! (Although I'm enjoying him as is)

 

[Kisatamura]

If it's anything like Luigi's Cyclone, you can probably do some amazing stuff with it.

Has anyone tried to edgeguard with it?

It works against airdodges, and really well against characters with teleports trying to ledge snap. It doesn't gimp but it'll stop the opponent from trying to ledge snap.

 

[Yong Dekonk]

Everyone who said Dr. Mario isn't the worst gave examples of his options and strengths. However, they didn't give an example of a character that is worse than Doc. I love Doc but he is probably the worst.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Everyone who said Dr. Mario isn't the worst gave examples of his options and strengths. However, they didn't give an example of a character that is worse than Doc. I love Doc but he is probably the worst.

Probably worse? This one's easy.

- Mii Swordfighter (lol)
- Maybe Zelda
- Probably WFT because she can't hit anything that's a ****** and/or crouching. This is just opinion but, hey!
- I've heard things about Samus, dunno though, chalk this one as a maybe
- Charizard is looking rather likely although he's had some stuff. Still not positive about him though.
- Gonna go out on a limb and say Little Mac OUTSIDE OF ANY FINAL DESTINATION OR OMEGA STAGE. This character is seriously CP'd by the stage list and it doesn't help that he can be camped from an unreachable position in the Duck Hunt stage (He can't reach the top tree)

That's the few I'm confident in right now at this point in the early meta. Dunno if it's gonna get better or worse but I am absolutely positive Mii Swordfighter is so bad people forget about him.

 

[Doctor_Mario]

Probably worse? This one's easy.

- Mii Swordfighter (lol)
- Maybe Zelda
- Probably WFT because she can't hit anything that's a ****** and/or crouching. This is just opinion but, hey!
- I've heard things about Samus, dunno though, chalk this one as a maybe
- Charizard is looking rather likely although he's had some stuff. Still not positive about him though.

That's the few I'm confident in right now at this point in the early meta. Dunno if it's gonna get better or worse but I am absolutely positive Mii Swordfighter is so bad people forget about him.

All of those characters are not worse than Dr. Mario. Zelda and Charizard are quite good.
Mii Swordfighter depends on the custom moves.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I'm pretty sure the only legal sets for Miis are 1111, 2222, and 3333.

I'm also pretty sure none of those have much real synergy for Swordfighter. He's just bad. Like, bad bad.

Charizard I hear on and off about, dunno.

Go to the Zelda social thread, no really. You should, I'm pretty sure they could tell you Zelda is really really bad and give you a lot of info about why.

Little Mac can be CAMPED INFINITELY on the Duck Hunt stage. How the HELL is that not bad? He can't reach the top tree platform, at all. Anyone with a projectile can stall up there and he can't do anything. His already bad recovery was nerfed even further in the latest version of the game, even. The stagelist literally invalidates him COMPLETELY outside of niche FD counterpicks (his MU chart was ALREADY a counterpick related one to begin with). That is undeniably awful. The meta literally counterpicks him. The amount of perfect play he requires to be good is absolutely unreasonable (don't get knocked off ever? If he ever trades on anything he's dead) and couple that with a stagelist that goes against all of his strengths? Yeah.... he's basically a good character on FD that has okay MUs and then it all goes to **** when he ends up on one of the other stages.

Wii Fit has the least reliable hitboxes I have ever had to deal with in a Smash game. Having inconsistent hitboxes in a game like this is suicide, sadly. She's still not unviable though!

Even with the way Dr. Mario is, his hitboxes consistently work on opponents of all sizes, he can't be infinitely camped on a CP stage, his stagelist is not one stage long, and the tower of crap they did to Zelda just sucks.

There's only so much that I can blame on Dr. Mario as I've had lukewarm results, but I really do not see him as the worst in the game. I think before you go and say this about any character (keep in mind I never said any of the chars I believe Doc is better than were the worst, cause IDK!), this meta is still relatively young and we haven't even had our first Apex. Right now it favors incredibly aggressive play but things like this change. Undeveloped chars get explored, etc. etc. but I can't with good conscious say this character is the worst.

 

[HeroMystic]

Wii Fit Trainer is actually pretty decent. With Deep Breathing, F-tilt kills at 110%. Sun Salutation is basically Samus' charged shot and her recovery is really safe.

Probably a mid tier character but she definitely isn't worse than Doc.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Wii Fit Trainer is actually pretty decent. With Deep Breathing, F-tilt kills at 110%. Sun Salutation is basically Samus' charged shot and her recovery is really safe.

Probably a mid tier charater but she definitely isn't worse than Doc.

My big thing with her is that her hitboxes don't feel really SOLID and I feel like a lot of her options can be beaten by outright crouching especially vs. *******.

Again it's just my opinion and it might change but, I'm not feeling fit. Again though those are all valid conclusions to draw so I understand that much.

I'm wondering who you think Doc is better than, out of curiosity. ;3. Might as well get a roundtable perspective thing going on.