[WA] Perth Smash Thread

[Marteh]

FREE FOR ALL!

Seriously that's what this is becoming, all over the fact of two little twerps dressed as ******'s.
I can honestly see both side's to the argument on the chain grab, and I'll be first to admit it annoyed me when Glenn got it out on me. I'm putting it like this, if one infinite CG is legal, why can't others be. To me that'd be the same as enforcing a rule where only Zamus can throw her armor and the opposition cannot pick it up, it's pretty lame IMO.
Basically if one CG is legal, all should be, although really I'd prefer that didn't happen, but that's the only way it's fair.

As for swordsaints comment. Basically your saying were restricted to Metaknight or Snake if we wish to be any good, which to me is pretty stupid. Corpse wins our tournaments since he is purely the better player and knows how to use Toon Link. Think about it like this, if in the finals of an American tournament a Sonic beat a Metaknight. Does that make the Metaknight player bad? No, it just means the Sonic player is a better player.
The Australia vs America crew battles, in the last round it was a Wario vs a Snake. According to your logic the Snake should of won due to tier placement, yet the Wario absolutely trounced him. And why? Because the Wario despite being a lower tier was a better player. To me a game of all metaknights and snakes is a game I don't wish to play.

 

[swordsaint]

playing differently according to a match-up is skill

if you can do that the icies deserve to win

Marteh: do your research before you speak

wario has the advantage over snake 6:4

Edit: sorry that sounded arrogant, didn't mean to

 

[Richard7]

Yeah I agree, being pigeonholed (I like that term ) into playing in a certain way or playing certain characters is super lame. It sucks for Wario, he's pigeonholed into avoiding grabs against basically every character. Makes me want to quit him, among other reasons too.

 

[swordsaint]

you guys aren't competitive enough

this is a competitive scene, and being pigeonholed (get ***** ) in to adopting certain rules because certain players don't like certain styles or can't play to a certain standard is a poor effort guys

obviously your rules don't affect me, but hey, I like debating

have fun by being competitive, and playing your own way, but don't say "change the rules so my way of playing has a chance of winning"

simply said...get better.

 

[Mic_128]

I'm putting it like this, if one infinite CG is legal, why can't others be.

AFAIK, (and I could be wrong, I generally don't look up how to do infinites) but all other infinite chain grabs all end at the edge of the stage, but the IC one doesn't require any forward movement to do (I think D3 might have a standing one on a couple maybe?)

If an infinite ends because of running out of room on the stage, imo that's fine, as it's not "Oh shi- there goes a stock" when grabbed once.

 

[Richard7]

As for swordsaints comment. Basically your saying were restricted to Metaknight or Snake if we wish to be any good, which to me is pretty stupid. To me a game of all metaknights and snakes is a game I don't wish to play.

Everyone's forgetting about Falco.

 

[Marteh]

In all honest I never do think before I speak, thus don't research. I only concern myself with matchups that concern me, Snake v Wario doesn't. So guess you win there.

Mic- I really don't consider infinite's that can run out of room as infinite since it's not really 0-death as such
Ric - Screw Falco, everyone knows the ground is where it's at

 

[Jupz]

The ice climbers infinites can be easily distinguished from other characters infinites. Ability does in fact matter, because as you said yourself otherwise anyone could pick them up and start infiniting. Lets distinguish it from some already banned infinites. Dedede's infinite is far easier to pull off, and is impossible to avoid due to his massive grab range. Marths infinite on lucas and ness is also incredibly easy for anyone to counterpick Marth to do. Its not really making an exception because the IC's infinite is in a different class. Also it is a much larger part of their metagame then D3s or Marths who still function fine without it. Banning it is effectively like banning the IC's, which as swordsaint said you may as well ban every character above them on the tier list.


Nice point about turning off newer visitors, we could introduce a soft ban on using IC's against newer players, I know I would never use them against a new player unless they were already proficient in the game. I would always put the development of the scene here above winning a match or two, but banning the IC's CG would have no effect on more people coming in and may deter more hardcore gamers.

About having to plank and space; you should be spacing anyway, the IC's just makes it a bigger risk if you screw up; however if you seperate them, its basically a stock against the IC's anyway, you can gimp nana easy then its just Popo which is also easy. Seperating them happens about as much as the infinite, more or less depending on character, which allows for easy ways to kill them at low percentages, similar to the infinite itself. As swordsaint said, if you allow us to get the grab, why should we not be allowed to infinite? Ice Climbers have one of the shortest grab ranges next to ganon, and they slide whenever you hit there shield so you would have to horribly space an attack to get grabbed. And all you need to do is hit them once to seperate them, and have a good chance of taking a stock.

About planking - there are characters that can deal with the IC's without planking and that can put them on the defensive themselves; IE snake, toon link, rob. counterpick one of them. you don't have to play gay to win against them using those characters. basically the same against someone like MK, except theres NOONE you can counterpick that gives you the advantage; with snake, maybe one or two characters, tops.

Also, how can you not see how tier list placing affects everything? If the IC's infinites truly were broken, wouldn't they be first? Placing only 11th shows its not broken and is perfectly beatable without having to resort to such tactics. MK, DDD, and other characters force people to counterpick all the time.

Also, whats wrong with using it if you know how to use it? If you've spent the time to learn it, you should be entitled to use it. If it breaks the game, why aren't IC's in first place on the tier list?

you guys aren't competitive enough

this is a competitive scene, and being pigeonholed (get ***** ) in to adopting certain rules because certain players don't like certain styles or can't play to a certain standard is a poor effort guys

obviously your rules don't affect me, but hey, I like debating

have fun by being competitive, and playing your own way, but don't say "change the rules so my way of playing has a chance of winning"

simply said...get better

this post is sooooo true. i feel as though people are playing simply to catch up and have a merry old time; sure this is good and fun, but wheres the competive spirit? we wonder why were so far behind? no-one is trying hard to improve, and when a chance comes up like beating the IC's infinites, we shove it away.

 

[Hobobloke]

It's an infinite if it requires no movemnt otherwise it's just a CG, or in IC's case they can just turn around and not worry about room thus being an infinite. If one is illegal all should be, IC's do not deserve speial treatment "oh look at poor us it's all we have".

Jupz people are trying to improve, I know for a fact that alzi practices among others.

 

[swordsaint]

the best ice climbers in the world "lain" placed 8th at genesis

he didn't win because the other 7 players were better

so just ban lain from perth
/jk post over

jupz i think i love you, you're good with the explaining and stuff

 

[Jupz]

you guys aren't competitive enough

this is a competitive scene, and being pigeonholed (get ***** ) in to adopting certain rules because certain players don't like certain styles or can't play to a certain standard is a poor effort guys

obviously your rules don't affect me, but hey, I like debating

have fun by being competitive, and playing your own way, but don't say "change the rules so my way of playing has a chance of winning"

simply said...get better.

the best ice climbers in the world "lain" placed 8th at genesis

he didn't win because the other 7 players were better

so just ban lain from perth
/jk post over

jupz i think i love you, you're good with the explaining and stuff

i was gonna say the same thing, your excellent at explaining

also mic trav is right if it goes off the stage its a CG not an infinite.

also trav the infinites are easily distinguished read my long post

 

[Hobobloke]

I read every post in this thread fully, sure it's harder to pull off but the fact remains it's an infinite just like DDD's and it should NOT be treated differently.

 

[swordsaint]

or vice versa and dedede infinite should not be treated differently, therefore unban it

 

[Jupz]

Vlade was actually talking to me a few weeks back before he left saying he was thinking about unbanning it at his next tourney. to make the scene more competitive.

Oh well then I guess it just comes down to opinion. I think the two infinites can be easily distinguished, you don't

 

[Marteh]

I was actually just thinking. When Vlade gets back he has a lot of reading to do heh.
Poor poor guy.

Edit: On a diff note I think next tournament texture hacks should be banned during tournament matches, they're fun for mess arounds. But as Bob, Graeme, and myself know they can ruin a game. The invisible phazon both me and mic had ruined 2 tournament matches.

 

[Richard7]

I was actually just thinking. When Vlade gets back he has a lot of reading to do heh.
Poor poor guy.

Edit: On a diff note I think next tournament texture hacks should be banned during tournament matches, they're fun for mess arounds. But as Bob, Graeme, and myself know they can ruin a game. The invisible phazon both me and mic had ruined 2 tournament matches.

I don't think he'll mind, he goes on smash boards A LOT.

And yes, I believe texture hacks should not be used in tournaments (sorry mic).

 

[swordsaint]

simply don't use stage textures

character teextures are fine

 

[Richard7]

simply don't use stage textures

character teextures are fine

Or that.

 

[Jupz]

I don't really mind about them.

 

[Marteh]

I know I mentioned banning them, I do enjoy them though, such as blonde Marth, and Harvest Moon Ness are fun. But then like on Mic's Wii theres no normal Sonic which does bug me.
Still I guess maybe character textures only and neutral colour cannot be changed?
Just going out there.

 

[ichigo601]

playing differently according to a match-up is skill

if you can do that the icies deserve to win

Marteh: do your research before you speak

wario has the advantage over snake 6:4

Edit: sorry that sounded arrogant, didn't mean to

you guys aren't competitive enough

this is a competitive scene, and being pigeonholed (get ***** ) in to adopting certain rules because certain players don't like certain styles or can't play to a certain standard is a poor effort guys

obviously your rules don't affect me, but hey, I like debating

have fun by being competitive, and playing your own way, but don't say "change the rules so my way of playing has a chance of winning"

simply said...get better.

i think both these pretty much sum up the whole debate, mainly the last one.

I understand exactly where your coming from Bob about the scene growing but i dont think keeping IC infinite would stop the growth, and if it did begin to affect the growth i think as Jupz said maybe it should become sort of an unspoken rule to not infinite scrubs to death lol

 

[Mic_128]

I know I mentioned banning them, I do enjoy them though, such as blonde Marth, and Harvest Moon Ness are fun. But then like on Mic's Wii theres no normal Sonic which does bug me.

Yeah ,I didn't mean for normal sonic to have still been there, was seeing what the texture was (saved some and they were just "sonic 1" and "sonic 2" so put one as default just to check. forgot to take it off.

and yeah, removed invisible phazon.

 

[lain]

At high levels of play, the way the bracket is set up can have a huge impact on who places where.

Atomsk (DDD) lost to Z (Pikachu) at GENESIS like first round. In a more general sense, snakes who meet DDD's in brackets will more often then not lose, things like that.

If I had met the diddy, the two falcos, or the THREE metaknights who placed above me, things would have been a little different.

 

[luke_atyeo]

what up lain, you should post in aus boards more often, we <3 you

 

[Bsrk_]

Heh i'm surprised we lured Lain over here with all this heated debate_

Well i think everybody has made their opinion heard and i am willing to leave it at a group decision (unless proven otherwise) as to what path we should take about IC infinite CG_ To re-confirm, this is the CG that requires no forward momentum in comparison to the standard CG which i don't think anybody has any issues with_

Jupz i think you are under the misconception that people in Perth are not wanting to take the scene seriously in terms of competitive play_ Although we do have fun and joke around, after speaking to many people in the scene i am well aware that people want to progress much further than they currently stand_ The issue some people have is a lack of human opponent to practice against, or lack of understanding in terms of character training_ People handle their brick walls differently but the general consensus is that everyone wants to progress_

I personally know that myself and Baconfingers practice regularly every thursday and have recently gotten Marteh involved because of his lack of human practice and his willingness to further his competitive game_ Everybody else has their set routines for practice and training and it has been showing_ Jupz and Alzi in particular have improved amazingly and i feel that the rest of the scene are getting to a level of equal skill to Sam_

It has taken longer than most states but you forget that for 6 months last year there were only 8 of us who were keeping the scene alive and this is what i attribute mostly to our lack of progression_ Now that the scene is picking up in size we have also seen an increase in growth and development_ You will still notice of the 8 people who held the scene together, at least 5 of us still remain in the top 8 respectively_

This is why i have been pushing for Smashfests in between regular tournaments to promote further growth and development to our scene_ Yes i do agree with you Jupz that we have the potential and need to push ourselves further and this will become more prevalent as our scene increases in size and tournament regularity_ Unfortunately we lack the numbers of the Eastern states in both size and available tournaments and i feel we do lack the variety of competition that we require_

Anyways sorry to babble off as i have a tendency to rant wildly_ Jupz i see your arguments and i value your discussion about this topic because these things need to be debated sometimes to make topics known, seen or heard_ Hopefully we can come to a community decision on the state of the IC infinite CG (not the standard CG) and leave this topic resolved until the need for further discussion_

Please anyone feel free to add their thoughts or input as well as suggestions on possible poll questions or community decisions to finalize this discussion_ My suggestions are simple questions in poll form such as;
"Do you feel that the IC infnite CG should be banned in the perth scene?"
"Do you feel that the IC infinite should be allowed in the perth scene?"
"Do you feel we should allow the IC infinite but regulate as to how often/ to what percentage it can be allowed?"
"Do you feel IC themselves should be banned in the perth scene?" (i lol'ed whilst writing)
"I like pie"

 

[Jupz]

OMG lain posted in this thread hai lain :D

LOL at the I like Pie question :D

Sorry if I came off that way Bob, I know you've had WAY more experience with the Perth scene then my meagre two tournaments, and I love the way people joke around and have fun, from what other aussies are writing when they went to america people were throwing their controllers against the wall and stuff, and I'm glad we got to have this debate without any flames being thrown like in the MK ban thread :|

I understand that there weren't many of you guys last year, and I love the idea of smashfests, and I really appreciate you trying to build up the scene

With the IC's debate, well we've both gone as far as we can go with our points and I guess all it boils down to now is personal opinion.

Although I don't see how the results of the poll will change anything, as you will probably ban them at all your tourneys and Vlade will probably allow them at all his no matter the results of the poll And as I said before, banning the infinite is like banning the IC's because they would be low tier without it, and noone will use them without the infinites

 

[Alzi]

Guys i've thought of a really good idea....

Next tourney we all use captain falcon. :D

About the texture hacks i hate the stage texture hacks but i don't mind the character texture hacks. Some textures look awful and ugly the only ones i really like are the toon link ones lol. I actually enjoy playing as fierce diety toon link and train toon link on Mic's wii it's so much fun.

Jupz i think we should start to throw our controllers at walls and stuff so we scare our opponent for the next round. Well if your controller is still alive that is lol.

"Do you feel that the IC infnite CG should be banned in the perth scene?"
It shouldn't but i just think it's really :/. If i were to change my play style then it would be simply space and spam bombs with toon link then that would make me look bad in that match.

Oh Bob thats nice to see you practicing since your shiek is really good and i did see a major boost in skill from last two tournaments when you were playing him in friendlies. I think i might of improved but i can't tell all i do is probally a few days in the week play friendlies online with other people i know of and many play a wide rage of characters which include:

Mario, luigi, bowser, zelda, shiek, toon link, wario, falco, metaknight, sonic and others so i do have decent exprience on the match-up since by playing them online i understand what each character is capable of doing. I should watch some other video's of all the characters playing and study it like it was homework but i don't have time for it

 

[Shaya]

I think the most appropriate course of action when it comes to texture hacks:

If one player is uncomfortable with the textures, remove the SD card; change character colors to another then back (if it matters) and restart the match.
People bringing wiis with custom stage or character textures that reduce visability on tourney legal stages should 'know better'.

P.S all for Game and Watch's Cyan color being switched as tourney standard; that ****s unfair on FD/Lylat.

 

[Hobobloke]

II love my cyan G&W, go away!

 

[Jupz]

The only stage hack I love is Mics Greens Greens one, but the rest I'd be happy to do without.

Get a Dedede Claus one Mic :D

I don't mind about the character ones but leave meh green DDD alone

 

[Bsrk_]

Jupz i would never ban something unless it was a majority decision or SBR approved, so don't feel that i will change any tournament rules based on my personal opinions_

Thanks Alzi for your feedback_ :D You are always your worst critic so you will usually put your abilities down to keep pushing you to get better_ The main thing is that you are able to realize your strengths/ weaknesses and act/ develop upon them_ I think you do this well and it was more than challenging when i vsed you last tournament_

never knew about how some people reacted in the Genesis tournaments_ It's pretty childish to react that way but it must be fairly competitive_ I like our scene because people can socialize and jest around whilst still taking things serious and hopefully that isn't a turn off for some people who may feel we are not taking things competitively_

Nice avatar Shaya_ Daft Punk i believe_?

 

[Jupz]

Ah ok Bob, you're a nicer TO then me (if I ever host a tournament lol) .


Also can't wait to VS alzi again

 

[Hobobloke]

Shaya's avi is around the world I believe, anyway you know how I feel about the IC's. I'm bored someone hold a smashfest. . With the tourament are we going to book one fo maybe the 23rd?

 

[lain]

"Do you feel that the IC infnite CG should be banned in the perth scene?"

obligatorycopypasta

if IC's don't have the ability to kill from one grab, they will drop to low tier. In melee they could wavedash, actually had setups INTO grabs, and had far more killing power and edgegaruding ability. In Brawl, they have bad running speed, bad priority coupled with bad range, no setups into grabs, and have very little edgegaruding ability now.

You're making the character worthless by banning or limiting the grab.

 

[Hobobloke]

If one infinte is illegal all should be, IC's do not deserve speial treatment because "oh look at poor us it's all we have".

Answering with a quote.

 

[Mic_128]

obligatorycopypasta

if IC's don't have the ability to kill from one grab, they will drop to low tier. In melee they could wavedash, actually had setups INTO grabs, and had far more killing power and edgegaruding ability. In Brawl, they have bad running speed, bad priority coupled with bad range, no setups into grabs, and have very little edgegaruding ability now.

You're making the character worthless by banning or limiting the grab.

Or on the flip side, you're making a lot of other characters way worse because of allowing one technique on one character.

 

[Jono!]

Obviously banning the infinite which results in a 0-death kill is not banning the IC's and if that makes them low tier, BL THAR! You also say the only reason they pick up the IC's is because of the infinites. Is that not cheap and scrubbish-like? People will still use them because they have a good ground game and can still combo out of grabs.

EDIT: Alan u hardly play bowser or shiek. You play tl too fkin much imo

 

[Shaya]

Is that not cheap and scrubbish-like? People will still use them because they have a good ground game and can still combo out of grabs.

Actually cheap in just about every definition is the opposite of scrub. Banning something which doesnt break the game, or complaining about it IS the definition of scrub.

People will use the Ice Climbers and without chaingrabs. Chu Dat in the united states is attempting to prove that ICs can be viable without INFINITES; but I'm unaware of him not using any chain grab what so ever; he isn't winning tournaments with this self-restriction though.

Ice Climbers do not invalidate any characters from the game at all, whilst having an 'almost impossible to lose' match up with ganondorf, Ganon already loses to everyone...

I would doubt Vlade's ability with the ICs grab is as precise as people who STILL LOSE to other characters. You say infinites... Is he actually doing the dthrow to bthrow infinite from every grab? Or is he just chaingrabbing you to a ledge and attempting a spike or fsmash?

 

[Alzi]

Glenn did the chain grab to edge to spike and vlade does the back throw one. Vlade can do alot though i think.

Jono i ment i play against those characters not use them.

 

[Jupz]

I can do all the infinites and I think Vlade can too.

Also Lain and shaya, two incredibly knowledgeable people have said that it shouldn't be banned. They know more then us about the issue, and they know that the scene works better with the infinites unbanned from personal experience. Theres a reason the best players opinions count more then others.