[WA] Perth Smash Thread

[Bsrk_]

Infinites should be banned regardless_ IC is fine but the infinite CG is bannable in my eyes, much like D3's infinites etc_

Playing gay just gets you disliked, payed out, de - scened or beat up and i will have no qualms stopping anyone from entering a tourney if i feel they are going to spoil everybody elses enjoyment_

We are slowly demoralizing Sam enough to defeat him_

 

[Alzi]

Sam is actually good at the dam game so i don't care if he always wins. I guess ice climbers are ok although the don't get grabbed part when i try and do that it makes me look like i am spacing and camping alot while using toon link against ice climbers.

My mistake last tourney was i kept approaching and not spacing properly. But i have improved that so next tourney i should do well.

If i could ban certain characters then i would ban alot lol.

 

[Marteh]

Well last tournament the infinang CG on Ness/Lucas was banned since it's a 0-kill. I agree with Bob, any CG's which are infinant should be banned.

 

[Hobobloke]

It's hard to not get grabbed Jupz as one trip can lead to a grab, goodbye stock. The only reason the IC's infinites aren't banned according to the SBR is because you can counterpick to avoid it though i disagree with this logic. First match with double blind character selection IC's win on a neutral, then sure you get to CP but even if you win they get the next CP and can just take you to FD.

 

[Alzi]

How bout make a rule were if you play ice climbers you are not allowed to play on a neutral. :D

Although then theres lylat cruise and some other stages like pokemon stadium.

 

[Jupz]

IDC if the D3 infinites are banned, its near impossible to avoid his infinites with his grab range. but the ice climbers is tiny. And Marths on Lucas ness idc either. But cmon, the ice climbers infinites? The point is, even with their infinites, there still only in A tier. the different infinites are easily distinguished. its even debatable if D3's infinites should be banned.

We've only had one tourney with Vlade using the Ice Climbers a lot, and he still didn't win. He got the same position he would have gotten if he had used Falco throughout the tourney as he has proven before.

That was ONE tourney. People should be getting better at avoiding grabs. I can understand for bowser trav, thats one of his worst matchups, but you second G&W and he does fine against the Ice climbers, with a small advantage.

Infiniting with the Ice Climbers isn't "playing gay", although in my mind I think everything should be allowed and I would be just fine with versing ice climbers infinites. even more then that; I actually LOVE versing extremely defensive MK's, ice climbers, olimars, falcos and other supposedly "gay" characters. I love the thought that goes into playing against them. Anyway back to my original point, the ice climbers infinite chaingrabs aren't "playing gay", thats how the ice climbers are meant to be played. they would be low tier without them. IT IS A NECESSARY ABILITY FOR THE CHARACTER TO REMAIN TOURNEY VIABLE, unlike other ones which I said I wouldn't mind if were banned, eg. d3s, marths

it is also much harder to pull off and requres months of practice (at least it did for me).

alzi, thats like banning neutrals for olimar or pikachu. I don't think you understand, the ice climbers aren't the best character in the game and don't need special rules. banning the infinites is like reducing olimar to one pikmin for the whole match. even with the infinites, they still aren't S tier.

banning the ice climbers infinites after ONE TOURNEY is taking the easy way out, and im glad Vlade will never ban them for any of his tourneys. learn to fight them.

we all want to have a larger scene, this isn't the way to go about it and will definately discourage out of state visitors.

 

[Alzi]

I don't mind what happens to them. I don't care if i loose against ice climbers because of their chain grabs i just hate them.

I can do well against them actually if i space correctly. Bob makes me lol with his comments when some people are brawling though and using characters like ice climbers or how sam is winning always in a ffa.

 

[Jupz]

look deeper then the surface. the ice climbers chaingrabs are just a tool. same as Mks tornado. same as snakes grenades. same as pikas neutral b. same as samus Zair.

people just view them as "gay" because they can't do anything while being infinited.

sorry if I came off as a little harsh, im just fairly frustrated because I spent months learning the IC's infinites now people are talking about banning them

 

[Ghnaschnakoff]

IMO IC's chain grab just takes too long to learna and anyone that is able to pull them off should. Even though at the last tourney I was knocked into loser's in first round because of an IC player, it is rage worthy the things they can do. But there is one simple way to avoid the chain grab. Once you're grabbed yell at the top of your lungs ***** and hope they are childish enough to laugh and mess up their concentration.

Anyway, next tourney...
1. Practice Ness a **** load
2. Beat people with him and make them cry
3. ???
4. Profit (literally)

 

[Hobobloke]

Before I start I don't want to get inot a fight with someone over this I'm just refting my points. It's also funny that I was joking to begin with

IDC if the D3 infinites are banned, its near impossible to avoid his infinites with his grab range. but the ice climbers is tiny. And Marths on Lucas ness idc either. But cmon, the ice climbers infinites? The point is, even with their infinites, there still only in A tier. the different infinites are easily distinguished. its even debatable if D3's infinites should be banned.

One of the reasons they are only in A ier is because MK shuts them down so badly, also in no way whatsoever should D3's infinites ever be allowed.

We've only had one tourney with Vlade using the Ice Climbers a lot, and he still didn't win. He got the same position he would have gotten if he had used Falco throughout the tourney as he has proven before.

It's not about how well Vlade placed with his IC's (besides Bob made him feel bad for using them anyway ) but more about how they detract from the game itsel and it's competitive aspect.

That was ONE tourney. People should be getting better at avoiding grabs. I can understand for bowser trav, thats one of his worst matchups, but you second G&W and he does fine against the Ice climbers, with a small advantage.

I in no way am debating for the ban for personal gain, G&W does well against them as you said, I'm completely unbiased here you should never let personal feelings interfere anyway.

Infiniting with the Ice Climbers isn't "playing gay", although in my mind I think everything should be allowed and I would be just fine with versing ice climbers infinites. even more then that; I actually LOVE versing extremely defensive MK's, ice climbers, olimars, falcos and other supposedly "gay" characters. I love the thought that goes into playing against them. Anyway back to my original point, the ice climbers infinite chaingrabs aren't "playing gay", thats how the ice climbers are meant to be played. they would be low tier without them. IT IS A NECESSARY ABILITY FOR THE CHARACTER TO REMAIN TOURNEY VIABLE, unlike other ones which I said I wouldn't mind if were banned, eg. d3s, marths

It doesn't matter if it's necessary for them to be tourney viable, we ban things so the game can be determined by player skill a much as possible, IDC is banned because otherwise it would be who can hit first then stall, planking is banned for the same reason and we ban infinites for the same reason they detract from the value of player skill in the match, sure it might take a while to learn but it if a mid level player mastered the IC's infiinites it wouldn't matter if they were terrible at all other aspects as grabbing 3 tims is all they need to do to win, and would easily beat other players of the same skil and perhaps slightly higher players.

it is also much harder to pull off and requres months of practice (at least it did for me).

banning the ice climbers infinites after ONE TOURNEY is taking the easy way out, and im glad Vlade will never ban them for any of his tourneys. learn to fight them.

Degree of difficulty should never be a factor in deciding if something should be banned., we aren't taking the easy way out either, we're trying to make the game more fair the easy way out would be to air camp the whole match with MK.

We don't really have a problem here so I don't mind either way but thats just my opinion.

 

[Alzi]

Thats why you don't learn to play ice climbers jupz.

But Ghnasch has put throw a nice point how it took them long to learn how to do the grabs therfore they should be able to use them. Also we will have a ness ditto next tourney since earthbound is awesome so we must celebrate this by having a ditto.

Even if Vlade didn't use ice climbers he still would of came what he came last tourney. He told me he only uses them for fun though. I have to admit pulling of some grabs and cool things with them is very fun to do.

Most people have a second main they use i don't know if i should consider a second main i might and use him in doubles.

 

[Marteh]

Dayum Alzi you beat me to the idea of Ness ditto.
I relook at this and yes I find infinants very unfair but there are ways around it, use projectiles and don't get close. I'm sure everyone has a character who can use projectiles.
The main reason I'm against it is suddenly everyone wants to play them, which is annoying but what can you do? I guess if we go to ban IC's infinant we should stop Falco's/Snakes spamming and camping against certain characters since it's a major advantage. Or Diddy's bananas since they're unfair.
So I say for now we leave it unbanned unless it becomes that everyone uses it, then action should be taken.

- Woo Woo Woo! You know it!

 

[Hobobloke]

Woo Woo Woo! You know it!

No. Just no.

 

[Mic_128]

look deeper then the surface. the ice climbers chaingrabs are just a tool. same as Mks tornado. same as snakes grenades. same as pikas neutral b. same as samus Zair.

people just view them as "gay" because they can't do anything while being infinited.

that's like allowing a shotgun in a sword fight because they're both "weapons"

 

[Jupz]

Before I start I don't want to get inot a fight with someone over this I'm just refting my points. It's also funny that I was joking to begin with


One of the reasons they are only in A ier is because MK shuts them down so badly, also in no way whatsoever should D3's infinites ever be allowed.


Click him^^


It's not about how well Vlade placed with his IC's (besides Bob made him feel bad for using them anyway ) but more about how they detract from the game itsel and it's competitive aspect.

I understand your opinion, but I personally feel that it adds to the metagame. I know not many people here share my view though. The ice climbers have a tiny grab range, so it is very possible to avoid getting grabbed if you space well. Second, the ice climbers are horrible without the grab, so if you avoid the grab you should win.

I in no way am debating for the ban for personal gain, G&W does well against them as you said, I'm completely unbiased here you should never let personal feelings interfere anyway.

I didn't mean to accuse you of anything man, I just thought I'd let you know that some characters are better at avoiding grabs then others (Bowser and DDD are horrible when compared to MK and Wario, for example). Also know I'm not doing this for personal gain as well (maybe just a little because I spent a fair while learning them ), I still main and use all my other characters and chances are I won't be using IC's much this next tourney anyway until I'm more confident with them I just want everyone to have more options.

It doesn't matter if it's necessary for them to be tourney viable, we ban things so the game can be determined by player skill a much as possible, IDC is banned because otherwise it would be who can hit first then stall, planking is banned for the same reason and we ban infinites for the same reason they detract from the value of player skill in the match, sure it might take a while to learn but it if a mid level player mastered the IC's infiinites it wouldn't matter if they were terrible at all other aspects as grabbing 3 tims is all they need to do to win, and would easily beat other players of the same skil and perhaps slightly higher players.

You are comparing the infinites to things much worse then it. The IDC was banned because it allows MK to get out of ANY situation and position himself anywhere on the stage, reseting ANY situation where he is at the disadvantage. Planking allows MK to basically WIN the match as soon as he takes the lead. Far worse things then the infinite, which will only take off ONE stock if done correctly (much harder to do in a tournament setting then on training mode), and can only be done out of a grab. The ice climbers, if seperated, can be easily gimped aswell, allowing you to bait grabs.

Degree of difficulty should never be a factor in deciding if something should be banned., we aren't taking the easy way out either, we're trying to make the game more fair the easy way out would be to air camp the whole match with MK.

I would be fine if everyone air camped all day ^_^, but I don't do it because others don't like it (If you verse me feel free to air camp )
But again, air camping is a tactic, not an ability, and can be done as soon as MK gets the lead. IC's can't just hop onto the ledge and plank when they get the lead.
The game is perfectly balanced as it is even with the IC's. Not taking the easy way out would be learning how to beat them. There are more broken things still in the game then IC's chaingrab.

We don't really have a problem here so I don't mind either way but thats just my opinion.

<3 all you guys

My message is in the green

Anyone for MK dittos this tourney? I loooove them sooo much lol

Also I don't understand why Mic? The ice climbers infinites aren't that gamebreaking compared to the other things I listed.

Snakes grenades force you to air camp the whole match anyway, same with Falcos lasers. They create a massive advantage by forcing the opponent to approach. Sure, the Ice Climbers have a decent camping ability, but they are worse at punishing approaches because of Nana. And look who is needed for CG's? Nana

Btw gnasch my maths specialist teacher wants to know if we have any friends from other schools that are doing maths specialist and he wants to know how much stuff you guys are using you calculators for? Cause we never use them were wondering what other schools are doing.

 

[Corpsecreate]

IC Infinite = OP
Calculators in Maths = Always being used and is as necessary as the air we breathe.

 

[Jupz]

What does OP mean? Also lol corpse

 

[Marteh]

What does OP mean? Also lol corpse

Overrated Penguins
or
Over powered. Can't remember which

 

[ichigo601]

banning ic's infinite is silly. They take so long to learn, trust me ive seen glenn learn them. Hes awesome at them now but it took months. You shouldnt take all that hard work and time put into learning them away from someone.

Also even the best ice climbers in the world, i.e lain and meep cant always pull of the chain grabs. Look them up on you tube. Yes if you get grabbed a lot of the time you will loose a stock but they do drop the chain grabs quite often, thats just how difficult it is to pull of, even for the best.

Most people just say ban ice climbers infinite because they dont know how to play against them. People neared to learn that rather then just banning ice climbers infinite you need to learn how to play agaisnt them.

When glenn first learnt the inifinites i hated it because i kept loosing 100% of the time until i realized playing agaisnt ice climbers was like playing agaisnt any other character and i had to change my sratergy. Now when i play agaisnt him i win probably 40% of the time and he is absolutly amazing at desyning them and pulling of the infinites.

Also ice climbers have one of the worst grabs in the game the reach is terrible. If ice climbers where as broken as everyone says and their infinites should be banned why arent ice climbers at the top of the tier list, tournamnt rankings and why arent meep and lain winning every single tournament they enter? Because people have learnt that ice climbers are just like any other character and have learnt how to play against them and win.

Its been said a million times before but i will say it again you just need to learn how to not get grabbed. Honestly if you cant then you deserve to get *****

 

[ichigo601]

double post sorry lol

 

[Hobobloke]

Debates pretty muh done your a bit late, also they arent high tier or winning tournaments is because the abundances of MK's and less so Snakes. I've said it before degree of difficulty should never be a factor in deciding if something should be banned.

 

[ichigo601]

lol yea i know was a bit late dont really check forums much, but i would just hate to see IC infinate banned so i had to post lol. I think their the most misunderstood character in the game. IC vs MK is a 50:50 according to metaknight board match ups i think they actually are one of the better characters agaisnt MK, specially after watching lain agaisnt M2K. But yea they do get ***** by snake lol. Anyway i dont really mind i just hope it doesnt get banned

 

[Bsrk_]

It doesn't matter if it's necessary for them to be tourney viable, we ban things so the game can be determined by player skill a much as possible, IDC is banned because otherwise it would be who can hit first then stall, planking is banned for the same reason and we ban infinites for the same reason they detract from the value of player skill in the match, sure it might take a while to learn but it if a mid level player mastered the IC's infiinites it wouldn't matter if they were terrible at all other aspects as grabbing 3 times is all they need to do to win, and would easily beat other players of the same skill and perhaps slightly higher players.

Just to re-iterate my comments before_ This post sums it up fairly accurately_ I stand by my comments because if we allowed ALL infinites to be used in game then what would stop you from just getting frustrated and picking up a character who can infinite_?

The fact is that infinites ARE banned because it takes one grab or move to basically cost you a stock_ You may as well throw away your controller and wait until the match is over_

You shouldn't be pigeonholed into choosing a certain character or being forced to camp purely to avoid a characters infinite_ It's not enjoyable to play against characters with infinites allowed and its less enjoyable to watch_ This game is meant to be competitive, enjoyable and fair_ Infinites are not fair because they guarantee you a kill once you are able to activate that infinite regardless of skill difficulty_ I basically look at it as cheating because the other player has no way at all of escaping said infinite_

IC is perfectly fine with their chain grab, i have no problems against that, but the infinite CG is completely unnecessary and i do not feel that it completely destroys their playstyle by not being able to use it_

The same situation arose with MK once he was seen as being the most powerful character ingame_ A majority of players where starting to choose him as their main and this became a large issue in the Brawl scene, leading to soft bans in particular states/ countries_ The issue is that the scene becomes completely boring and unenjoyable if everyone is forced to play as or against the same few characters purely because they are regarded as OP or have infinites_

I don't care how hard it may be to land an infinite but if that's all you have to rely on to win then you are pathetic in my eyes and have no real 'skill' if you feel you cannot defeat an opponent without it_ This scene is about it's community and the enjoyment of versing each other competitively_ Infinites do not allow for completely competitive gameplay and detract from the overall enjoyment people have at tournaments_

Vlade realised that people were not happy about the IC infinites and chose to play other characters that allowed for more competitiveness_ For this i respect him for because he put his community before himself_ Everybody else should think about this too before you completely commit to arguing about keeping a completely unfair move such as infinites in tournaments_

 

[Richard7]

Vlade realised that people were not happy about the IC infinites and chose to play other characters that allowed for more competitiveness_ For this i respect him for because he put his community before himself_ Everybody else should think about this too before you completely commit to arguing about keeping a completely unfair move such as infinites in tournaments_

No disrespect to him, but he still went MK/Falco. Falco is so unapproachable.

 

[Jono!]

Shouldnt we just ban IC infinites until like 50%? Theres good points on both sides but regardless of how long it takes to learn an infinite is still an infinite is it not?

 

[Jupz]

Wow glenn uses IC's too? Sweet :D

I'm not sure you understand Bob, and I don't know how many times I have to say this, but even with their infinites the Ice Climbers ARE STILL ONLY A TIER. they suck without the infinites. It is like banning the IC's because no-one will use them without the infinites. Which is excatly like banning EVERY character above them on the tier list.

Then it does actually come to down to how easy it is to pick up and abuse. the ice climbers infinites are the opposite to this. they are the hardest thing I have attempted to learn besides falcos phantasm cancel. if you want to pick them up and abuse them.... go ahead and try to learn them in a few days? if they were that easy to abuse, why isn't the american smash scene dominated with IC's?? either they know how to deal with them or they are too hard to learn, neither of which is a problem. its far easier to deal with the IC's and beat them then it is to use them. banning them is simply taking the easy way out instead of learning to fight them.

the next point is they can be counterpicked by characters and stages. they have disadvantages. MK has no disadvantages, either stage or character (i strongly disagree with the MK ban aswell, but thats a topic for another day).

we are BEHIND other places in our metagame, not ahead. america was at our position in the metagame ages ago, and they got around the problem. THIS SHOWS THAT AS OUR METAGAME PROGRESSES, WE HAVE THE ABILITY TO DEAL WITH THE INFINITES.

I'm dissapointed that we have to have this discussion. allowing the IC's infinites leads to a far more healthy community, rather then effectively banning a character that isn't even top tier.

every time I say infinite in this topic I mean the IC's infinites. I am not fussed about D3's and marths infintes. vlade said a few months back on msn he was thinking of unbanning d3s infinite for his next tourney.

 

[Alzi]

Glenn owned me with ice climbers in a friendly. lol.

I guess what ever is in the game you should be allowed to do. Next tourney i am actually going to play my hardest and use my brain wisley while in matches.

Just the one problem with Ice climbers and Falco's chain grab is that you space like your life depended on it and you get them to about 50% then they just need to grab you to take you up to there level of %.

 

[Richard7]

rather then effectively banning a character that isn't even top tier.

The tier list isn't accurate enough for that to be a issue.

MK has no disadvantages

O.o?

 

[Jupz]

That may be your opinion Ric, but keep in mind the SBR is far more educated then any of us and therefore is the most accurate we can get at this time.

Read what I wrote after, don't cut bits out. "MK has no disadvantages, either stage or character" he has no matchup disadvantages and does fine at every stage, I didn't say there was absolutely no disadvantages

Alzi has got this right. Because we have to use our brains a little more while playing, people are talking about banning the infinites. Its the wrong way to develop as a community. But alzi IC's infinites is better then falcos chaingrab

 

[Hobobloke]

Jupz i adressed some of your points previously adn will quote your long post later when I can be bothered

Alzi it should not be allowed if it's in the game. Items, IDC etc.

As for the SBR they are knowledgeable but they aren't the gods of all that is Brawl besides theres only 1 of them whos knowledgeable about our scene and he is in favour of the IC's ban, our beloved Mic

 

[Shaya]

Glenn owned me with ice climbers in a friendly. lol.

I guess what ever is in the game you should be allowed to do. Next tourney i am actually going to play my hardest and use my brain wisley while in matches.

Just the one problem with Ice climbers and Falco's chain grab is that you space like your life depended on it and you get them to about 50% then they just need to grab you to take you up to there level of %.

Thing with Falco is that at higher level play, with better spacing (some; not all) characters literally force Falco to stop racking up damage through lasers/jabs etc.
Look at SK92 vs M2K at genesis. For Meta Knight it is very easy to apply damage and pressure whilst completely spacing away from the grab, whilst grabs do occur, it is not a staple part of high level play against MK, relying it on gets you severely damaged, even stocks lost.

Honestly, I'm not too sure about Toon Link (if that's who you still main); with retreating air dodges into zairs; boomerang infront covering a return, and a bomb in hand, I'd say it's extremely difficult for a Falco to grab you. To top it off, as Toon Link you can explode 3 or 4 bombs and suddenly not be suspectable to the grab (up to 30%ish).

Any questions or videos you have, I'm glad to help with.

Oh and about ICs infinites...
They have enough hard-ish match ups
including ROB, Snake, Toon Link, IKE!!! yeah..

Remember: Spacing is your friend.

 

[Ghnaschnakoff]

@ Jupz. Umm well lately we haven't used it much but that's only because we have to learn how to simplify trig identities. But with other stuff it's really only for figuring out impossible things that you can't do in your head like finding the roots of some random *** quadratic with big scary numbers and drawing crazy polar graphs.

also @ Jupz, we're not behind america in terms of metagame advancement, we're at the same place as them. We follow the americans so we can only be behind them if they're not posting something vitally important. Japan on the other hand is behind in the metagame because they don't follow the americans. It may seem that they're further in the metagame but only because they have more people like Sam to show off said metagame.

With the IC's arguement, I now refuse to watch IC games from america because they either end extremely fast which means that the person they're playing doesn't know how to play aginst IC or they're the full 8 minutes long which is full of camping and planking. So I guess if that's what takes to beat IC, planking and running away without provoking stalling, it's what should be done.

 

[Jupz]

Ok thanks gnasch cause we never use our calculators.

Also shaya knows what hes talking about.

ill edit this post in 15 mins when i get up to my mums house for more points.

 

[Mic_128]

also @ Jupz, we're not behind america in terms of metagame advancement, we're at the same place as them. We follow the americans so we can only be behind them if they're not posting something vitally important. Japan on the other hand is behind in the metagame because they don't follow the americans.

Just because they didnt take the same path as the US doesn't mena they're going the wrong way.

 

[Marteh]

Arguable Japan could be ahead of our metagame for not following America, who knows?
IC's infinite are a pain, yet there's way around them, I beat Glenn when he was playing IC's in a friendly, with Marth. Hence there was no projectile spams, kind of proves they're not to much of a threat.

And now my point. Let's all stop arguing over the Ice Climbers and plan our next tournament, our scene is lacking!

 

[Mic_128]

Oh, and take the SBr tier list with a grain of salt. (For example, pretty clear TL's in the wrong spot )

 

[swordsaint]

A tier.
1. Meta Knight
2. Snake
3. Wario
4. Falco
5. Diddy Kong
6. King Dedede

B tier.
7. Marth
8. Mr. Game & Watch
9. Pikachu
10. Olimar
11. Ice Climbers

Ice Climbers are ranked 11th WITH their chain grab. And you guys are debating whether the 11th ranked character in the game as aspects worthy of a ban?

Why we're at it, let's ban the ten other character above Ice Climbers and they're chain grabs.

If you're good enough to beat Ice Climbers anyway the chain grab means nothing. Learn this funny thing called "spacing". Ice Climbers grab range suck, and them getting a grab at all means they deserve the infinite.

Learn to fight them. Don't just ban something because you cbf learning to fight it.

@mic saying it's in the wrong spot...

We're in Australia, our metagame and our level of play is nothing compared to them. The tier list is reflective on the top level of play. Meaning, if a Toon Link is winning, you guys have a lot, A LOT of room for improvement. (NO offense intended, because it stands for ALL of Australia.)

 

[Jupz]

Hes perfectly fine where he is IMO. And let me make one more argument before I let this go.

Bob, you mention "what would stop you from just getting frustrated and picking up a character who can infinite_?"

what I really want answered is WHY?

if you were a frustrated scrub, who was tired of losing, why would you pick up the ice climbers when you could pick up... king dedede, wario, marth, pikachu, olimar, g&w, snake... or even Metaknight? all these characters are easier to learn and "abuse" (if you want to call it that, I just call it general use of the character) then the ice climbers, and are more effective when abused. why would you bother with months of learning the ice climbers chaingrabs and desynchs when you could be at a higher level with Metaknight or DDD or G&W within a week, and place better.

lets put ourselves into the mind of this imaginary, angry scrub. you're tired of losing. which character do you choose to main?

ice climbers are one choice. but WHY on earth would you choose the ice climbers, spend ages learning the chaingrab (which is only a small factor of the game, as you won't be getting that many grabs off) and desynching and stuff.

then take a look up a little, at DDD. he has a bigger reward for a MUCH smaller amount of effort. hes fairly easy and has a fairly low learning curve. he is easier to learn, and when this small amount of effort is applied, becomes a better character then the ice climbers after months of practice.

you then look right up to the top of the tier list. metaknight. metaknight has several abusive moves that do not have to be used out of a grab with a tiny range, he sees amazing quickness combined with being hard to punish.

which character do you choose? excatly, not the ice climbers.
(ok we can stop pretending were the scrub now)
now we've gotten over the fact that the ice climbers arent easy or effective when you try to pick them up and abuse them. anyone that still thinks otherwise, start using them now and we'll have an MM next tourney ^_^ the other main argument is that they "detract from the metagame".

first off, i would like to say they help the metagame because they have an even matchup with MK, helping the metagame and stopping his dominance.

but thats not my main point.

remember those whiny scrubs in the general discussion that always complain about people like pit and wolf? im sure we all thought (at least I did) those characters were broken at one point. at low levels of play, they "detract from the metagame". at low levels of play, they are unbeatable: there is simply no way past pits arrow spamming except to roll straight into one of his smashes, and wolfs smashes and laser are broken. there is no way past them.

look at the scrubs now. i laugh reading the posts they make and remember when I was like them. all it takes is a few weeks, and it is possible for pits arrow spamming and wolfs smash spamming to be combated. all it takes is a little thought.

look at the people over in america. they might laugh at us for wanting to ban the IC infinites, because we look like the players complaining over pit and wolf. they laugh because they see such simple ways around it as we do with the pit and wolf scenario.

let me use another analogy. lets assume our smash scene is in the 3rd dimension (ie. what we live in). the pit and wolf complainers are in the second dimension. after a few weeks they progress and come into the third dimension, seeing that in fact there are easy ways around the problem. assume the top players in the US are in the fourth dimension. what we see as a flat problem, they can see ways around. what the pit players see as a square, we see as a cube. what we see as a cube, the US players see as a tesserract (a 4 dimensional version of a cube ). they can see ways around the problem. this means that in a few weeks when we progress (not saying it will only take us a few weeks to get as good as the US players cause i know thats not true) we will see ways around them and think we were stupid for even thinking about banning them.

we also have the best player as a toon link here in perth who also uses snake if im not mistaken, and ric has an excellent rob. so we can counter them, as shaya said.

for the next tournament, I dont care about stages, but I think green greens and yoshis island melee should be unbanned. as an incentive, green greens is crap for IC's
why green greens should be a counterpick

though I will understand if you want it banned because I main dedede.

also YI melee, I am writing a massive write up and have done heaps of research on it, so I will post what I know later tonight or tomorrow.

edit: swordsaint hit what i was trying to say in my previous post. our two posts should have cleared up any misconceptions. NO PLACE IN THE WORLD has the IC's infinite banned.

 

[Jono!]

Were u high when u wrote this lol? Your saying **** that doesnt even make sense and personally your giving the US people too much credit,

 

[Bsrk_]

Jupz you know i have said that i don't mind Green Greens and Yoshi's Island being allowable but they will have the (D) rule to them_

That's fine about counterpicking stages and characters, i understand completely as i chose zelda against Vlade and nearly beat him in our second match by practically camping and planking, which in turn bores me with having to play like that just so i can avoid being infinited_ I can handle the standard CG but if someone gets the grab and knows the infinite then you know how it ends_

You explained that there are other characters that are easier to use than IC and more effective_ This is true, but think if a 'scrub' comes to a tournament and gets infinited by a competent IC player or CG to death, then some people quit the game on the basis they believe it's 'unbalanced or OP'_ Everybody has seen this happen on numerous occasions and could possibly reverse our scene growth and instead lead it back to the old days of 8 person tournament_

Is that what you want honestly_? I know those people who quit based on inexperience are missing out but i know that forcing players to pick up a character they may not want to play or being forced to plank and camp to win a match would gradually make our tournaments turn into a tier ***** fest_ TBH if everyone was forced to play a select top 5 characters in a game full of say 20 characters, i would quit because i don't see any variety in the game, let alone balance_

I understand perfectly well that the infinite can be avoided but it pigeonholes players into a playstyle or character selection which i see as being detrimental to our tournament growth_ I don't see how bringing the topic about people once thinking Pit and Wolf were OP because people should be aware from Melee days that Brawls metagame had not yet been fully developed or well into its development_

Every smart player understands perfectly well what having an infinite gives you and how quickly it can turn a match_ This is why other characters infinites were banned so i don't see why there should be an exception for one character because 'oh there not very high on the tier list, it's no big deal' or 'they have a short grab range so just camp or 'space' them'_ I think everybody is well aware of spacing, and as for the tier list, you're saying that if the IC were higher on the tier list then this suddenly becomes an issue we should look at_? Regardless of tier placing, issues should be addressed_

As for Swordsaints comment about Sams TL_ I don't think we have issues because somebody playing a TL better then everyone (including Vlades textbook Falco)_ Are you basically insisting that we should all pick up higher tier characters in an attempt to beat a player who is plainly better than most_? Sam is capable of picking up most characters to their most potential but chooses to play TL_ I don't think Perth is as good as we could potentially be in comparison to the eastern states or even USA, but i don't think judging us because of the highest placed ranks character choice_

We're also not looking to ban the CG of IC only the infinite CG_ I have stated this in every post and making comments like 'why don't you just ban every other characters CG as well' shows me that you haven't read our comments well_ We can be ****ed dealing with it but once an infinite has landed then its GG, you should not be pigeonholed into a character choice or playstyle because it's an 'effective' way of dealing with something that could easily just be banned and allow more variety_

An infinite will always be an infinite once proven, i don't see how tier list placing or learning difficulty could change that_ People learning it proves its not impossible or so ridiculously difficult that someone with supersonic reflexes can only pull it off_ This can be achieved through practice and once you have the skill you will use it unless regulations are put in place_ Unless proven otherwise i stand strongly by my point_ AND yes i did ****ing plank and space against Vlades IC but it was boring, lame and completely turned me off what i enjoy about this game as you should all know i love a challenge just as much as the rest of you_