Wario's Matchups - Free discussion!

[Strong Badam]

Wario probably beats Zelda tbh. He can dair bounce on dins and do some other things. His Uair KOs at really early percents too and Bite combos into it if you read their DI.

 

[CyberZixx]

So dair on din's is actually a good idea? Gonna try that out. I did find up air real good vs her but I have issue landing the sweetspot, that bite tip will come in handy.

 

[MagnesD3]

Wario probably beats Zelda tbh. He can dair bounce on dins and do some other things. His Uair KOs at really early percents too and Bite combos into it if you read their DI.

Ill try this, because im getting decimated in the matchup..

 

[\Apples]

Ivysaur is hell.

Just noticed nobody replied to this. I wanna spark up some more discussion here on our main potato man.

Crouch slide armor is great, gets through razor leaf, dtilt, ftilt, jab, fair and bair. Grab will beat it though so when they start grabbing, you've gotta be on point with your reaction time and jump before you crouch slide. There's a certain range in which I use the crouch slide though, too close and they get you during start up, too far and they can react too easily, look for the balance, it's a slightly different range for each character you're facing and against some, crouch slide just isn't really an option for approach. However, it is always an option for mobility. I use it to get away sometimes when I'm uncomfortable, almost like Falcon Kick. I'll sneak underneath and go behind them as they're falling down on me with an aerial if they're cornering me to the ledge and it usually works pretty well.

I've noticed her uair kind of just beats Wario's dair and that really sucks. I grab against her more than I normally do and I don't bite often because it's scary to come down on her from above no matter what. It's rare to find an opening from above her, which is really really disheartening because Wario really wants to come in from above. He doesn't approach from the front because his dash dance sucks, he baits in the air and Ivy puts a lot of pressure on the air. This makes me really want to play this matchup more because the only things I can think of that are reliable are dthrow and side B off the stage for edgeguarding. Gonna look into this more, what are your thoughts?

 

[0RLY]

I play against Ivy more than any other character. Against razor leaf, in decreasing order of distance, jump, SB through it, shield. When jumping, i try to either give myself a platform to wave land on and look for a bair opening. If blocked, it usually pushes far away enough to prevent punish, unless you're behind her. Then you will eat a bair oos. Grounded SB plows through razor leaf but the aerial version won't, including jumping or falling from the grounded version. When shielding razor leaf, I will immediately side step as soon as ivy gets close to me (which is usually right when razor leaf finishes passing through me) to avoid the incoming grab or aerial. Punish accordingly.

To edgeguard, take the ledge. Especially if ivy is recovering low. SB on stage to off stage will usually threaten ivy to just uair siren, before they dj to up b. If they are sufficiently high enough, you can SB to jump which is pretty unavoidable. In most cases, just take the ledge. When ivy reels in, a uair will cover whether ivy choose to drift back or forward. On a hard read on a drift back, a ledge hop bair will secure the ko. On a hard read drift forward, a ledgehop fair to uair at low percent or single sweetspotted uair is the best you can do. If ivy has been predictably recovering low, run off the stage and get in ivy's face with a ff fair or dj nair depending on position. Ivy often throws razor leaf at ledge height so this is a good answer when taking the ledge isn't going well.

On no or bad di, you can cg ivy with bite so mixup your throw directions! You can't really approach, just punish razor leaf. I find it better to attack the front of Ivy's shield with stuff like fhff fair into grab because Ivy has a slow grab and a fast bair.

Ivy wins the crouch cancel wars between your dtilts because as you get pushed further away, your dtilt fails to reach while Ivy will get the sweetspot and get a free usmash. Instead, if you get caught dtilting a crouching Ivy, perform a dacus. It will either suck Ivy in or put Ivy on the ground, while you move out of get-up attack range.

I get most of my kills with SB through razor leaf or offstage and sweetspot ledge hop uairs when Ivy reels herself in from up-b. Until her b-up is fixed, Yoshi's Story is your best counter pick. If it gets banned, I find Norfair to be pretty good. You can get very fast uair KOs near the top platform and the offstage platforms protect you from Ivy seed bombs and uair meteors. I personally ban Wario Ware, Yoshi's Island Brawl, and Smashville. Ivy can camp really well underneath WW's platforms. The same goes for the other 2 stages, except there's stuff Ivy can hit to charge solar beam.

 

[\Apples]

That's good stuff. I'd like to add that I think crouch slide is great when used intelligently. The armor can get through Razor Leaf, Ftilt and all of Ivy's non-sweetspot vine attacks. Just be careful because if you get behind her, her Bair is gonna be her first reaction. You can usually turn around and grab her though at least, or Fsmash or Dsmash quickly.

If you do get through Razor Leaf though, there's a chance Ivy is expecting you to slide through if you have been doing it often. The little burst of speed on the crouch slide just as it's coming out might be able to get in before the vines actually come out if your reaction to it is timed properly.

 

[Vi¢e]

Just started playing Project M, it's super fun!
How do you all feel about the Marth matchup? I feel that the character is just too good at juggling Wario, anything I can do to somehow avoid geting juggled to death?

 

[DMG]

Wario has trouble with Marth. In that area, there's not much to do besides maybe tricky airdodges or saving your DJ until key moments you may be able to break out (as opposed to spamming jump all the time while getting hit and possibly losing it). He doesn't cover below him very immediately or with any range to get out of juggles, so it will be a challenge.

 

[\Apples]

I could see Marth being one of Wario's hardest matchups at top level, actually.

 

[DMG]

Marth is pretty rough, and it doesn't help that Wario's sort of average for getting out of bad spots. Tech options don't feel that good, no really strong combo breaker/no reliable Dair to challenge juggles, etc

Shield pushback also makes Marth a bit safer than he would normally be on shield. It's very hard for Wario to punish him OOS when stuff like Dtilt even at the middle of the sword probably won't be shield grab range, or when Nair/Fair OOS will take awhile to travel to him. You're continually stuck in a disadvantaged neutral, with less range/disjoint, and without the ground speed or mobility you would like at as counter balance for having a rough time in the air.

 

[Vi¢e]

Any way to approach him reliably? I usually have to wait until he does something laggy, or when I'm lucky enough to catch him with bite so I can follow up with a dtilt or something.

 

[\Apples]

The thing is Marth beats everything Wario has, they never really trade at all. Marth is super disjointed and Wario is not at all. Marth also controls the air against Wario incredibly well. If the Marth is a reactive player, it's seriously one of the hardest matchups in Project: M that I've experienced. If the Marth is less reactive and more of an intuitive player, Wario may be able to squeeze out the win.

Wario's tech options, spot dodge, air dodge and roll are all hellllla slow and it's super easy to keep momentum over him if you gain it. In the Marth matchup, Wario has such an incredibly hard time gaining momentum on Marth that most of the matchup ends up consisting of Wario being chased all over the stage because Marth can space perfectly such that Wario has very few (if not zero) reliable punishes on him. Once the Marth understands those scenarios, the matchup is simple: don't ever put yourself in those scenarios and Wario can't touch you.

 

[Strong Badam]

FWIW I don't have much trouble against Marth. Anecdotally, my really young Wario was going ~even with Sethlon's Marth in friendlies at LTC (though he won the majority of them, they were all last stock). I can only assume that my Wario's gotten a lot better since then. Might just be that I'm great at that match-up in general.

 

[\Apples]

FWIW I don't have much trouble against Marth. Anecdotally, my really young Wario was going ~even with Sethlon's Marth in friendlies at LTC (though he won the majority of them, they were all last stock). I can only assume that my Wario's gotten a lot better since then. Might just be that I'm great at that match-up in general.

Do you have any conscious knowledge on that matchup or is your performance all intuitive? I mean, my Wario does great against 90% of Marths, honestly. But good Marths are a-whole-nother story, I can't touch them. At least that's how it was, it's been a little while since I've played against a good Marth so I may be better at the matchup now than I think I am. So I'm not really sure how to gauge my skill in that matchup because I lack a strong reference point. Care to share your insight for those struggling?

 

[Strong Badam]

Fighting Marth is all about micro-management of both spacing and timing. He has the range advantage most of the time but none of his attacks actually linger, so you need to have quick reaction time and move in the very instant that you're able to to punish him properly. DACUS and Bite are your friend in neutral against Marth IMO. Nair OoS too. Doing the standard rising FH Fair and hope they run into you doesn't really work against Marth because he doesn't have to get that far into you to hit you.

 

[\Apples]

I have to agree. The windows are tight, but if your spacing and reaction time is on point you can make it happen. No guesswork in this matchup at high level, you've gotta fight reaction time vs reaction time and just keep your distance.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Not sure how practical/safe this is in an actual match, but, perhaps something to consider in the Jigglypuff matchup:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VN2hoBXmnig

 

[\Apples]

Haha, just like our boy. At the very least, it's practical when she misses a rest.

 

[SixSaw]

Roy feels MUCH more tolerable than Marth. Maybe it's the smaller range? Laggier attacks in general?

Also, anyone have any tips against Ness? There a couple really strong Ness' in my area and I just don't know what to do as Wario in this matchup. The ever-present threat of PK fire makes contesting his space on the ground for any extended period of time very risky, but Ness' fair/dash attack also beat out all of Wario's aerials. These two in combination make it really difficult to stay up in their face where Wario likes to be, since you have to constantly be respecting so much space. The only time I feel I can reliably get hits in are when the Ness player makes a big mistake and/or drastically over-commits to something, and keeping any momentum off of those hits is tough because of how fast Ness' fair/nair come out.

 

[G13_Flux]

have you seen roys ftilt? utilt? nair? side b? a lot of roys attacks actually have larger range and duration than the marth counterparts. if wario vs roy is more tolerable than marth, i feel like itd more be about the reward each yeilds at a range. roys tipped attacks are prime combo material. while most people would claim roy isnt a spacing character, and needs to be close to his opponent, i have found that to actually be the exact opposite, since roy gets a lot of set ups for strings by tipping attacks. likewise, wario, being quite hard to combo, might survive longer against roy compared to marth, since roy now might need to rely on getting closer with certain attacks. marth has fsmash, which on its own probably counts for 90 percent of the MU. since marth can space to get kills as opposed to combos, it will work more heavily against wario. roy typically has a much more varied combo game and a larger variety of ways in which he can kill the opponent; however, with a lack of ability to reliably combo into all of those finishers, its going to make it harder for him to land the final blow.

i dont have too much experience in the MU other than to know what i just stated, but i would imagine wario would still be kept fairly off balance through roys range. how do you wario players get past the spaced ftilts and fairs? roys a lot faster in the air than marth, and because of that ive always had good success at fending of approaches from wario as roy.

 

[mYzeALot]

What characters can wario reliably up throw into up air as a kill option?

 

[\Apples]

You might be able to get the spacies around like 130%+, but at that point, either of Wario's Side Throws should send them offstage far enough for an edgeguard which should equate to a kill anyways.

 

[mYzeALot]

I've seen videos of Wario doing that to characters other than fast fallers. Is that because the opponent just doesn't react quick enough to it?

 

[\Apples]

Maybe. That'd be my guess. Though, maybe you can Uthrow Uair with Wario and I just haven't been trying it because it feels like it just wouldn't work so I don't go for it ever.

 

[DMG]

Uthrow to Uair can work, but it's usually reserved for Spacies and Falcon. It's probably impossible on anyone relatively floaty, and maybe very strict on characters like DK Bowser D3

 

[\Apples]

The problem is that heavy fastfallers are the ones you can get to with Uair after the Uthrow, but they don't die cause they're heavy.

 

[arwildcats09]

Anybody have any problems with Luigi? I've played a few solid Luigi's and it seems that Luigi's nair has more priority than just about everything Wario does.

 

[mYzeALot]

I get some success against luigi spacing d-tilit, and bair, and trying to get in right after he uses an aerial. It i definitely a weird matchup.

 

[0RLY]

Can I get some general advice vs MK? I just can't get through his lagless disjointed aerials and his grab game. Sometimes it's a dash grab, but most of the time it's cc dtilt/ftilt.

 

[DMG]

CC his regular attacks at lower %, and hopefully don't get grabbed. Despite being outranged on the ground, and overall not being that mobile, it's much eaiser to punish stuff. Even a random DACUS on a whiffed attack. If you're in the air, you basically trade off a lot of defensive tools for the ability to punish whiffed aerial stuff easier. I dunno, it's relatively hard MU overall for Wario but being a "****" with CC and SDI near the ground is probably your best bet.

 

[\Apples]

I hate MK. I've always had trouble with him but I haven't had enough experience against him yet to figure him out. I've been thinking about it though. The guy is about Wario's size and has about the same range, but he's disjointed. He's also faster on the ground and his DD is way more threatening. It's fast, and hard to bait in the air with Wario's weaving. I play off pure reaction time in this MU because I can't get comfortable at all, I feel very trapped VS MK as Wario, I feel like the MU is really hard.

Edit: Wario still is better at spacing in the air, MK can use the ground to stay on him, and he can get into the air well but he's still weaker up there. Wario's Bair is an amazing spacing tool but you have to stay hella far from MK with it. That's the first thing, treat him like Falcon; as if he can just be near you at any moment. You want to keep MK near the ledge, try and force him off, and just N-air him from the ledge until he's dead. It's really simple and risky to try and apply that much pressure to a character who can outspace and outprioritize you really well, but it's kind of Wario's only option. Aggro. It's really really fundamental and I think that's just the best way to handle MK.

 

[Ace55]

What characters can wario reliably up throw into up air as a kill option?

So I was bored and interested in how well upthrow to upair really combos so I booted up training mode.

True combo from around 25%: Ganon, Marth, Sheik, ZSS, DK, Bowser, Lucario. Against DK and Ganon it's a true combo until around 90% aka death on most stages. Since Ganon and Sheik have the same fallspeed and throw knockback ignores weight this should mean we have a kill combo from a grab on Sheik. I didn't test everyone and I skipped the spacies, Falcon, Lucas and DDD because those were a given. But we are basically the new Fox.

It should be noted for the chars who it barely doesn't true combo (Pikachu, Mario, those kind of fallspeeds) that it's quick enough that they shouldn't even have time to jump away without getting their jump eaten. Same goes for the listed chars under 25%. I've been able to get it consistently vs everybody except super floaties (your Zeldas, Jiggses, Peaches). And the throw animation doesn't seem to be weight dependent which helps a lot with the timing.

As far as I know 3.0 upair has the same start up and upthrow is unchanged so this should still be accurate.

 

[arwildcats09]

Alright I have multiple matchups I'm having issues with so this is going to be a combined post.

First off, Falco. How in the world is Wario supposed to approach him/get through lasers? Dair/nair/shine/lasers absolutely kill me every time.

Next, Sonic. Sonic seems to run circles around me. Especially Sonic users who do nothing but spin dash all over the stage, I haven't been able to find an answer. Spin dash is low risk, high reward. Is there a way to combat it?

Finally, Bowser. Is there any solid approach to him? It seems like a grounded Up B takes priority over every one of Wario's attacks.

 

[SixSaw]

First off, Falco. How in the world is Wario supposed to approach him/get through lasers? Dair/nair/shine/lasers absolutely kill me every time.

Don't get hit by them. Stay close enough that he can't use them.

Next, Sonic. Sonic seems to run circles around me. Especially Sonic users who do nothing but spin dash all over the stage, I haven't been able to find an answer. Spin dash is low risk, high reward. Is there a way to combat it?

Nair/Shoulder Bash if you really want to let him know he sucks.

Finally, Bowser. Is there any solid approach to him? It seems like a grounded Up B takes priority over every one of Wario's attacks.

You don't attack Bowser during his Up B. What are you doing bro. Bait one of his laggy **** moves and punish him afterwards. That's what what Wario does.

 

[arwildcats09]

Hard to get through Falco's lasers if he's camping on one side of the stage.
Also, hard to bait Bowser if he's just camping on one side of the stage.

 

[DMG]

We lose to Falco and there's not much you can do about it, besides getting good at PSing

 

[mYzeALot]

What would be a good secondary to have for the falco matchup and maybe some other troubling matchups?

 

[DMG]

Good luck. You're trying to CP Falco. Let that sink in for a minute

 

[\Apples]

Falco sucks, powershielding is your best option. Get a grab tho and he should be dead, if you don't know what that means practice vs a lvl 1 Falco for a while.

Sonic, I'd Nair excessively for starters, but I don't know the MU at all so I can't say much.

Bowser is the worst character in the game. Grab him so he can't UP+B OOS and bait his ****ty laggy moves. HUGE Bite target here, Nair and Dair are amazing against Bowser, Dair offstage for early gimps. Bowser is crust.

 

[SixSaw]

The only MU Wario has that I could see justifying a CP is Marth. Wario may not do great vs Falco but he certainly doesn't have a harder time than Falcon.