Weekly Move Discussion [Week 20~ Up Smash]

[Takumaru]

I don't think so. But that's what grab hits are for.

 

[TigerWoods]

Actually i think so... jabbing the pillars of Luigi's Mansion should un-decay your moves

 

[P.O.P.]

honestly, peach bomber is pretty much only good for recovery, team battle, and if u r like 100% sure if it will hit! otherwise the move itself is pretty janky due to its low priority!

 

[whitshadw8]

Peach bomber can be good if you can judge the distance between yourself and the ledge so that you'll end up grabbing the edge once the move is over. It's a nice tech move i guess, but as with all moves, shouldn't be used enough for the opponent to predict it.

 

[MusicalMike]

Peach Bomber is too good, she's got some flubber on that dress.

 

[EdreesesPieces]

Yes if you peach bomb pillars in luigi's and castle siege and such you refresh your other moves. It's amazing in luigi's because its not really punishable if you are hitting the pillar with it so even in the heat of battle you can decide to refresh your moves, hehe.

 

[JuniorMints]

Peach Bomber is one of her better beefed up move from melee. Its a bit faster, and longer and has considerable knockback. You can also chain well with it using a glide toss> side b. but you would have to be pretty close in the initial toss [due to the turnip knockback] to land it with minimal punishment.

 

[Airgemini]

Once again I'm very sorry for the delay.

Anyways, this week is Peach's standard Jab, but you can discuss the second jab too I guess.

This move is awesome! It's super fast and has decent range. I absolutely love it when an opponent sheilds and autocanceled Fair and then you Jab.

I also do Jab> Dsmash sometimes..

Thats not anything too helpful but thats all I can think of right now, I'll add on later..

 

[Morrigan]

Something about the Bomber I forgot to say, after you hit someone/something with it while holding a turnip (or any other item) you can perform an aerial without dropping it.

 

[BurtonEarny]

jab is maybe the most used move I use followed by down b and air. The first jab comes out frame 2!!! As airgemini said its great for using after an autcancelled attack or a glide toss and can set up a grab quite nicely.

 

[deepseadiva]

I honestly think this is the one move I really need to start spamming WAY more often. It's her fastest move, decent knockback on the second hit, long range, cute damage - it's awesome.

I wonder if I could win a match by simply darting in and out and throwing jabs out.

 

[TigerWoods]

Pointing out the Obvious:

Pros
-Insane Priority for a Jab(clanks with various projectiles and moves)
-Fastest move in your aresenal
-Her arm extends for decent range
-Great for move refreshment
-Can set up for grabs/other followups(escapable however, but doubtfull your oponent will catch it the firs time)
-You slap your oponent. Humiliation Factor.

Cons
-Not the greatest range in the world
-The damage really isn't anything to party about
-Can't KO(duh.. untill 500 percent or something )

Side note: It's great for refreshing, getting your oponent off you, spacing, folow ups and interupting ceartain attacks. You can probably safely spam this often. Like the move's animation suggests, this move is more of a mild inconvenience(or a slap in the face.... literaly) than anything for your oponent to fear. Having said that, it is probably one of the most useful and spammed moves you will have. Nothing to rely on, but great to have at your disposal.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Jab owns. It comes out fast, is spammable to a certain extent, has some pretty crazy priority, is incredible at interrupting attacks. The 2nd jab get's people away from you. A truly brilliant move

 

[Villi]

Her jabs have good range and and speed, but they also extend her hitbox when she steps foward. Whiffing with a jab is pretty punishable, so it's not the best move to attempt to outrange someone with.

 

[exidid]

I don't think her jab extends her hurtbox, just moves it (that's actually a good thing).

I once ran into a situation where my opponent was behind me. My friend tried to grab me but my hurtbox was too far because I did the jab in the other direction. I'm not a houndred per cent sure about this though.

 

[tpyo]

I love to jab -> grab -> etc
One thing I was wondering though was whether or not the second jab counts as a separate move in that getting two slaps in will count as two hits on the stale move list.

 

[hotgarbage]

I love to jab -> grab -> etc
One thing I was wondering though was whether or not the second jab counts as a separate move in that getting two slaps in will count as two hits on the stale move list.

Yup! Each jab counts as a separate move. I need to start using jab more myself, considering it's speed, range(more than ftilt), and potential to undecay my lovely fair :3.

 

[TigerWoods]

unlike a multi hit move like a dsmash... a jab is an actual "combo"

 

[TimeSmash]

Yup! Each jab counts as a separate move. I need to start using jab more myself, considering it's speed, range(more than ftilt), and potential to undecay my lovely fair :3.

I absolutely love that fact! I sometimes find myself using Jab too much, but since it's such a fast move (a bit slow on cooldown, not terrible, though) I can usually end up okay. It's a nice way to stop approaches, when you suddenly slap someone like that. It's a bit random, but you still inflict damage and provide a little pressure on your opponent.

Has anyone experinced with Jab->Ftilt? I've done it a number of times, but my opponents may not have been DI'ing.

 

[TigerWoods]

I absolutely love that fact! I sometimes find myself using Jab too much, but since it's such a fast move (a bit slow on cooldown, not terrible, though) I can usually end up okay. It's a nice way to stop approaches, when you suddenly slap someone like that. It's a bit random, but you still inflict damage and provide a little pressure on your opponent.

Has anyone experinced with Jab->Ftilt? I've done it a number of times, but my opponents may not have been DI'ing.

It is entirely escapable.... but if you're not predicatable with it youll probably connect.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Jab can outprioritze Pit's arrows btw...I think.

OH! And I forgot to mention about Nair...it is crucial when fighting Samus if you can't powersheild/are off the ground because it outprioritizes all her missiles and her Charge Beam (redgardless of how much it is charged up)

 

[EdreesesPieces]

Make sure to jab waddle dee's and doo's. That helps undecay moves as well, and against DDD you're gonna want that forward air undecayed.

 

[Airgemini]

You guys can discuss the second jab as well if you wish.

 

[Airgemini]

Sometimes when I Jab an opponent really close to the ledge they fall pretty fast downward.
Anyone else experienced this?

 

[White-Peach]

Sometimes when I Jab an opponent really close to the ledge they fall pretty fast downward.
Anyone else experienced this?

Has never happened to me, sounds like DI (maybe some people still trying to crouch cancel )

For the thread: Sounds like people started to experiment with slaps after the frame data was released (and fixed and released and fixed and released ). Thats good, but you dont need someone else to tell you something is good for you to try it Experiment :|

The only thing I'd like to add is that, if you're good with controlling your spacing, you can throw slaps (single or double) to fill space after attacking where someone might think about grabbing or counterattacking. It protects you after you attack, and at the same time acts as a combo opener if the spacing/DI conditions are good.

And~ learn when you can slap to break approaches, mostly the spammed ones for each character. When your opponent's main approach is gimped and turned into a short combo for you, you get to camp until they try again (with the same thing [lol], or something they're not used to using and "weaker.") Its character specific, and not everyone will have a hole in their approach that lends itself to being slapped and interrupted (but most short-hoppers do )

yay slaps :D

 

[Villi]

Sometimes when I Jab an opponent really close to the ledge they fall pretty fast downward.
Anyone else experienced this?

Yeah, there was a thread on it in tactical discussion if you feel like searching. I think they eventually concluded that after getting jabbed and falling off stage near the ledge, the sweetspot pulls the character down toward it; however, since they're still in hitstun, they get pulled passed the ledge (unable to grab it) and continue downward until their hitstun wears off and they can act.

One time, I jab combo'd someone off the stage and footstooled them. That was awesome. It probably doesn't have anything to do with the jab off the ledge phenomenon, but it could. I can't figure out how I pulled it off. I probably had help with him trying to double jump or DIing oddly.

 

[Airgemini]

Any other thoughts on this move?

I know many of us have looked at this but I thought I'd just bring here incasde some didnt.

Credits to Niko and his frame data thread =)

Jab:
1st jab total: 19
1st jab hits on frame 2
1st jab shield hit lag: 6
1st jab shield stun: 5
1st jab advantage: -18
2nd jab hits on frame 9 (counting frame 1 as first frame of 1st jab)
Linking to 2nd jab advantage: -8 (opponent has 8 frames between shield stun and 2nd jab hit box)
Both jabs total: 29
2nd jab shield hit lag: 6
2nd jab shield stun: 7
2nd jab advantage: -19

 

[Airgemini]

This weeks move is Peach's Forward throw! I may shorten the lenght of this discussion to Thursday since I would like to get back to my old routine and since there's only so much you can say about a throw.

Anyways, I really really really wished they didnt nerf this move!!!! As you can see, in the early demos it still had its Melee power as seen multiple times in this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHGK3NTVTj0.

But now its still nice. Its one of the more common throws I see in matches.

 

[Morrigan]

I agree, they totally butchered the Fthrow...bummer.

But it's useful for edgeguarding and KOing right on the edge of small stages (Green Greens, etc).

Fthrow: edgeguard
Bthrow: damage
Dthrow: follow ups
Uthrow: sh¡t sux lololo

 

[Wrapitup]

I thought the Fthrow got nerfed bad. From SSBM a simple grab>grab attack>Fthrow can kill. But recently I played a team match with my friends, on smashvillie. And if i remeber correctly I kill a luigi with it at around 100%. Which IMO is great if you cant get a Fair or Fsmash.

 

[Villi]

Fthrow isn't too great of a move, but it's my favorite throw for absolutely no reason. It just works so well for my momentum. I'm starting to use dthrow and uthrow (which I think has mind game potential) much more instead of it.

From 0-20% just about every character will land on their feet after an fthrow, which means you can pseudo chain grab them up to that point with one or two more fthrows.

From around 22-30 ish percent, depending on how fast the character falls, they'll start falling on their backs (when's the last time you saw that happen?)after an fthrow. If they don't DI or DI wrong (toward you), you can catch them mid bounce/tech with a Peach Bomber or a short hopped fair. Peach Bomber isn't anything near unpunishable, though, so if they air dodge into a shield instead of teching or whatever you're going to be punished.

Follow up number 2 is more pseudo chain-grabness. Chase them with a shield dashed jab. Fthrow, shield dash jab-grab. This should get them as they bounce or at least before they can do a get up attack, but be quick about it.

Follow up 3 is a short hopped/auto-floated dair to floated dairs/aerials. I like this one because it gives you much more time to react to anything your opponent could possibly do after an fthrow.

I don't see any sense in using this move over the other throws at mid percentages unless there's some special situation you're in. At low percentages, there are some OK follow-ups which may or may not hurt to try. You'd have to get pretty lucky with some bad DI (away or down or down and away) to kill with this under 150% even near the edge.

 

[Airgemini]

One time I was on Delfino and I Fthrow'd a Fox while the stage was lowering to the next part of the stage around 112% or so, and he flew (literally) off the stage with high speed and died.

Pretty cool.

 

[Villi]

One time I was on Delfino and I Fthrow'd a Fox while the stage was lowering to the next part of the stage around 112% or so, and he flew (literally) off the stage with high speed and died.

Pretty cool.

If fox DI's down and away, it sends him at a nearly horizontal trajectory which is awesome compared to the normally cruddy 45* upward with low knockback.

 

[Airgemini]

If fox DI's down and away, it sends him at a nearly horizontal trajectory which is awesome compared to the normally cruddy 45* upward with low knockback.

Yeah, it was pretty ovious he was DIing down but it still looked cool .
Also, I love Jab> Fthrow. Two *****slaps ftw!

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Poor F Throw...it's such a shame Peach was forced to take that brick out of her glove

My only uses for it is to get someone away from me so I can start spacing myself or to get someone off the edge for edgeguarding purposes

It is very funny when someone DI's incorrectly and get's killed at around 120% though

 

[Morrigan]

Why not discuss throws as a whole?

 

[EdreesesPieces]

I just throw the direction that will send my opponent off the stage, unless I can combo or chain grab out of down throw. I'll up throw if someone is weak below them and I can pressure them from below. That pretty much summarizes Peach's entire throw game.

For down throw, I like to down throw, and they expecet up tilt so they air dodge, I charge an upsmash and it hits them. It's pretty nice. Charging f-smash works if you don't think they are at a killable percent.

 

[TigerWoods]

If you throw a turnip straight up you can throw your oponent into the turnip. Works for down throw too, but Uthrow causes more damage. This is especially usefull with bombs and death turnips(it looks really cool too =D).

If you glide toss up into grab, you can bthrow an oponent into a turnip. Again, not very usefull but it is flashy.

Useless comment; Peach has super armor frames on her dthrow aparently, so if you throw a bomb up and dthrow correctly you will blast your oponent away and take 30 damage with no knock back...

 

[Airgemini]

Why not discuss throws as a whole?

I was planning on dooin a split week where we'd discuss one throw for 3 1/2 days and use the other half to dicuss the other. And since there's one throw left if I do it that I would probably mix it with her dash attack since theres not many things you can say about it.

 

[hotgarbage]

Anyways, I really really really wished they didnt nerf this move!!!! As you can see, in the early demos it still had its Melee power as seen multiple times in this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHGK3NTVTj0.

WOW. I'd forgotten how much of a killer that was. Looks like they also nerfed her fsmash and dsmash() after EforALL .

Anyways, I'll have to try using it at low %'s, it may make for a good mixup or what not. And yes, fthrow will kill but only if they di crazy bad. I guess when going for a kill with it it would be best to throw immediately after grabbing, or better yet pummel once to initiate them moving their control stick, and then throw hoping you get lucky .