Whats with people and Honor

[Veril]

Down the road if this ever catches Nintendo's attention, I'm not saying not to do it either since I'd assume they would order a cease and deist order first. You still should be cautious about making these mainstream since it does have legal problems, whether you want to play them off or not.

You should think about posts like these before making them.

Do you think Nintendo is blind and deaf? Or that they won't sue when it serves their interests, and quickly? They shut a site down a site in 2008 for texture hacking (syntax error) iirc because of iso hacking.

The "they aren't paying attention" argument is so weak that it makes me sad that I need to respond to it. Nintendo does pay attention, and it is willing to take legal action BUT IT HASN'T in the case of B+! Maybe, just maybe they aren't completely insane and they actually do care about the legal and PR cost of suing over a fan mod. Just saying... cause you know... reality being the way it is.

Nintendo isn't like, waiting to f***ing unleash a team of legal ninjas on a fan mod. There is even the new smashmods site up now. You (and everyone else who has cited EULA legal issues) are not in touch with reality. I mean, I personally would love to be able to work with Nintendo but I will settle for peace with the current situation.

You should think about posts like these before making them.

Ironically, there is no actual evidence of thought on your part with this response.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

You should think about posts like these before making them.

Do you think Nintendo is blind and deaf? Or that they won't sue when it serves their interests, and quickly? They shut a site down a site in 2008 for texture hacking (syntax error) iirc because of iso hacking.

The "they aren't paying attention" argument is so weak that it makes me sad that I need to respond to it. Nintendo does pay attention, and it is willing to take legal action BUT IT HASN'T in the case of B+! Maybe, just maybe they aren't completely insane and they actually do care about the legal and PR cost of suing over a fan mod. Just saying... cause you know... reality being the way it is.

Nintendo isn't like, waiting to f***ing unleash a team of legal ninjas on a fan mod. There is even the new smashmods site up now. You (and everyone else who has cited EULA legal issues) are not in touch with reality.

Ironically, there is no actual evidence of thought on your part with this response.

Way to miss what I was saying and the main purpose of my post.

Right now, regardless of the legal issues, Nintendo doesn't care about fan hacks here. I'm not going to pretend I have an answer for this but for whatever reason Nintendo doesn't give a **** about fan hacks.

I never said they weren't paying attention, I said they don't care. If this gets there attention, as in you know they notice that the fan hacks are something they want taken care of, they would have the grounds to take legal action. Of course it take money, but they could very well do it.

Don't dodge the truth. There is an actual reason why MLG and other sponsored tournaments won't run BB/+/-/. It has legal issues for those organizations and companies.

 

[shanus]

I never said they weren't paying attention, I said they don't care. If this gets there attention, as in you know they notice that the fan hacks are something they want taken care of, they would have the grounds to take legal action. Of course it take money, but they could very well do it.

If nintendo got inspired by even 1 feature of project M, B+, etc, in improving brawl I would call it a success lol

additionally, players like xyro, orion, and red_ryu seem to forget/understand that people want to have fun when playing a game. We aren't forcing anyone to play B+/B-/PM, but guess what, it spreads virally because they generally offer more excitement than the brawl alternative. But guess what, that's personal preference. And if they prefer one game to another, or *gasp*, dare I say enjoy both brawl and say, brawl-, guess what, they might offer tournaments for both!

People need to get off their high horse already and realize brawl hacks are here to stay, and many players have fun playing them. Will it replace brawl? No. But if you don't like it, keep your opinion to yourself because many others do.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Im just going to say Dynasty Warriors, since its the easiest game that Ive played that I can think of atm.

you mashed X. and when you wanted to kill stuff faster, you mashed Square. and once every 3 minutes or so, you mashed Circle. That was it.

uh...it doesn't help your case that x is jump <_<. And that mashing muso does nothing.


And Chaos difficulty in any game other than DW6 is mad difficult. Try doing a chaos run of Wu Zhang Plains in DW5 XL with anyone in 5th tier or below.



Just sayin' <_<



Oh, and brawl- is mad fun. I wouldn't play it competitively, but it's very entertaining.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Oh, and brawl- is mad fun. I wouldn't play it competitively, but it's very entertaining.

I wouldn't play it competitively

You are everything that is wrong with the world.

 

[Matador]

People need to get off their high horse already and realize brawl hacks are here to stay, and many players have fun playing them. Will it replace brawl? No. But if you don't like it, keep your opinion to yourself because many others do.

It has nothing to do with a "high horse" or anything of that nature.

B+/- the game, its players, and the entire movement piss off players like myself, (I'm assuming) Red Ryu, Xyro, and Orion because it's constantly being paraded around as the "Improved Version of Brawl". That's the main selling point of the game...that it fixes all of Brawl's "problems" so it's, by default, the superior game.

That is extremely dumb because:

• The games are frequently modified
• Every change the creators make presents a new issue that normal Brawl DOESN'T have
• They are different games

There's also the legal ramifications that Nintendo could always choose to invoke if it ever somehow benefits them.

I understand that people tend to compare games. It's something we all do constantly. However, a perceived positive characteristic about B+/- is always unfailingly considered negative characteristic for normal Brawl. The games can co-exist, but not like that. It's a slap in the face to everyone who actually LIKES normal Brawl whenever the hacked versions are brought up as irrefutably better games...when they haven't even been proven as such.

If every B+/- person shared your views (Shanus) on the games and simply wanted to modify this game to your liking, then there would be no issue. Unfortunately, not everyone that avidly plays the hacked games shares your views.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Matador nailed my thoughts down.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Huh. So in other words, we're just not allowed to brag about how much better we are than you? :V

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

You should think about posts like these before making them.

Do you think Nintendo is blind and deaf? Or that they won't sue when it serves their interests, and quickly? They shut a site down a site in 2008 for texture hacking (syntax error) iirc because of iso hacking.

Not exactly. Nintendo didn't really do anything. The old host was so afraid of that happening and getting sued (Ninty didn't make any threats at all like Square would) that they shut EE down.

It's not like Chrono Trigger's fan game and Square Enix.

An OLD Stack Smash post reveals the truth.

Let me see if I can bring it up.

 

[fkacyan]

Huh. So in other words, we're just not allowed to brag about how much better we are than you? :V

The issue many vBrawl players have with this type of bragging is that a great majority of hacked Brawl players originally moved to the hacked community because they were unsuccessful with vBrawl. Obviously this isn't the case with everybody, but it was the case with a large number of people.

Spoiler

Ironically many of these people also wanted MK banned back when there was no evidence that it was even worth contemplating.

Knowing what goes into QA and coding having done a decent amount of both, I know that the knowledge behind many of the core members of the hacking community is pretty astounding, but to have the gall to extend that to more than maybe a dozen or two people is pretty ridiculous.

 

[shanus]

It has nothing to do with a "high horse" or anything of that nature.

B+/- the game, its players, and the entire movement piss off players like myself, (I'm assuming) Red Ryu, Xyro, and Orion because it's constantly being paraded around as the "Improved Version of Brawl". That's the main selling point of the game...that it fixes all of Brawl's "problems" so it's, by default, the superior game.

That is extremely dumb because:

• The games are frequently modified
• Every change the creators make presents a new issue that normal Brawl DOESN'T have
• They are different games

There's also the legal ramifications that Nintendo could always choose to invoke if it ever somehow benefits them.

I understand that people tend to compare games. It's something we all do constantly. However, a perceived positive characteristic about B+/- is always unfailingly considered negative characteristic for normal Brawl. The games can co-exist, but not like that. It's a slap in the face to everyone who actually LIKES normal Brawl whenever the hacked versions are brought up as irrefutably better games...when they haven't even been proven as such.

If every B+/- person shared your views (Shanus) on the games and simply wanted to modify this game to your liking, then there would be no issue. Unfortunately, not everyone that avidly plays the hacked games shares your views.

True points, those players do give an unfortunate bad rep to many of the coders out there. What I find to be the case for many of these players were those that kind of picked up Brawl, found it frustrating, and found these mods as a way to sort of salvage their losses. As such, they are naturally a bit more excited and have a tendency to berate vBrawl due to this natural dislike that led to the switch.

With that said, you are largely disliking the stereotypical player as compared to the game itself, (lets forget design principals for aminute, I'll touch on that shortly). That opinion should not be transferrable to the product in itself. For example, say I go to 1 brawl tournament and have some obnoxious little kids there running around. Can I all of a sudden tout all Brawl players as obnoxious little kids? No, thats simply untrue.

Moving forward, you voice concerns with development cycles. I think Brawl+'s development cycle was kind of the training wheels for other projects in development. As someone who was involved in much of the earlier B+ development, I learned from these mistakes of many iterative versions and made sure not to incorporate that as I began the long withstanding development of Project Melee. However, Brawl+'s rapid development required successive iterations as its design principle and growth attracted in new coders, who then contributed new game-changing codes opening new opportunities resulting in new project versions. As you can see, this perpetual increase of new tools was the real result of the rapidly changing image of B+, which had its image largely tarnished by this many version issue. B- and Project M and Balance Brawl learned from these mistakes though, and as you can see for Project M for example, we arent releasing an open version until we are extremely satisfied with the product.

Wow, long post!

@Thiocyanide: yes, select coders for certain teams probably know more than most people on these boards about brawl. As someone who is *extremely* familiar with the inner programming of brawl, I have a feel I know more than most

 

[fkacyan]

@Thiocyanide: yes, select coders for certain teams probably know more than most people on these boards about brawl. As someone who is *extremely* familiar with the inner programming of brawl, I have a feel I know more than most

Not denying it! But many people are are far less knowledgeable and still seek to extend the blanket of "Well I'm awesome for hacking guys!" to themselves. That's the point I was making.

 

[Veril]

Not denying it! But many people are are far less knowledgeable and still seek to extend the blanket of "Well I'm awesome for hacking guys!" to themselves. That's the point I was making.

Those people aren't representative of everyone working on these projects, at least not in the current B+broom. Judging B+ based on a player-base which is similar to vBrawl in that most players aren't good, but unfortunately these players are a lot louder and more open with their opinions. This is like judging vBrawl based on the MK ban-debaters, not the intelligent posters like DMG, Omni, etc, but by the randoms who just are basically talking out of their ***es.

I admit I really disliked vBrawl for a while and it was largely due to how I felt about the vBrawl community and the metagame at the time (btw I was and still lean anti-ban, so it isn't about MK). Now I've come to respect vBrawl for the strategic and interesting game it can be. B+ is a different game, and its one I like a lot better. I will point out what I perceive as major flaws in vBrawl, but I don't look for fights. Its like, a B+ random would say "vBrawl sux lol get camped!" whereas I would write an essay on "comparative analysis of the advantage windows and the impact on respective metagames". I mean, obviously since I was a project lead for B+ I know these arguments well by now.

At this point I'm really interested in helping the vBrawl community knowledge-wise (by taking over the smashlab), and it just really upsets me that something sooo many people put an enormous amount of time into is discounted based on a scrubby segment of our community. Also, hating on other games was not something that B+/B- pioneered. Melee players have more intensely criticized brawl than anyone from B+.

In my case its just about respect. I don't disrespect vBrawl players because of their choice of game but its totally acceptable to bash B+ers? Its one thing for a scrubby random to do but when a person like Xyro writes "this opinion doesn't mean anything because you are a B+/B- main" it is just so offensive especially when I go out of my way to help vBrawl players as well as B+ers. Respect B+ if you are at all aware of the work that goes into it. The top players of B+ don't go out of their way to attack brawl. Look at OBM's blog on AiB for a more accurate view of our position in regards to other games.

Huh. So in other words, we're just not allowed to brag about how much better we are than you? :V

No, no we aren't. What is the point of that anyway other than to make us look like tools. We can emphasize the positives of B+/B- without bashing brawl players. As much as we might want to sometimes (omg tripping why?!) its just better for both communities if we respect eachother. vBrawl players take a long time to bring around to respecting B+ and its not cause of the game so much as the attitude WE can have towards them. Every time I've actually gotten to speak with vBrawlers (in person) at length about this project, their attitude towards it has improved at least slightly. If nothing else the tone of the conversation and debate shifts, and I've dealt with some intense haters.

 

[Matador]

No, no we aren't. What is the point of that anyway other than to make us look like tools. We can emphasize the positives of B+/B- without bashing brawl players. As much as we might want to sometimes (omg tripping why?!) its just better for both communities if we respect eachother. vBrawl players take a long time to bring around to respecting B+ and its not cause of the game so much as the attitude WE can have towards them. Every time I've actually gotten to speak with vBrawlers (in person) at length about this project, their attitude towards it has improved at least slightly. If nothing else the tone of the conversation and debate shifts, and I've dealt with some intense haters.

Exactly...and this same thing goes for normal Brawl players, Melee players, and every smasher in general...

There really is NO point in actively debasing either game.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

No, no we aren't. What is the point of that anyway other than to make us look like tools. We can emphasize the positives of B+/B- without bashing brawl players. As much as we might want to sometimes (omg tripping why?!) its just better for both communities if we respect eachother. vBrawl players take a long time to bring around to respecting B+ and its not cause of the game so much as the attitude WE can have towards them. Every time I've actually gotten to speak with vBrawlers (in person) at length about this project, their attitude towards it has improved at least slightly. If nothing else the tone of the conversation and debate shifts, and I've dealt with some intense haters.

Guys. When I say something like "ZOMG vBrawl is gai :V" or "You all are ***s :V" or "Lol@san, he's such a terrible player for maining ike and is STILL PR in new york? ", something is usually pointing to me trolling. Jeez. Don't take me so seriously when I make stupid little inflammatory comments with :V at the end.

 

[PhantomX]

People keep trying to change Brawl into a fighting game, when it's closer to a thinking game in actuality.

 

[Sliq]

People keep trying to change Brawl into a fighting game, when it's closer to a thinking game in actuality.

People keep trying to change Brawl into a GOOD competitive fighting game, when it's closer to an okay competitive fighting game.

 

[Flayl]

It's more like denial at this point...

 

[Kole]

It sure is nice having livestream and being able to use classic controllers/wiimotes.

what are you trying to prove here?

 

[Kinzer]

uh...it doesn't help your case that x is jump <_<. And that mashing muso does nothing.

And Chaos difficulty in any game other than DW6 is mad difficult. Try doing a chaos run of Wu Zhang Plains in DW5 XL with anyone in 5th tier or below.

Just sayin' <_<

You've been gone a while from the vBrawl Sonic boards, otherwise it would make perfect why he said that.

Also there's a tier list for Dynasty Warriors? You gotta teach me.



Wait, this is off-topic!

...NoU~! I'll sooner quit playing Brawl than quit playing Sawnik~! ;_;

 

[PhantomX]

Brawls' mechanics make it a fighting game only in the very loosest definitions of the term.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Guys, this thread isn't "Discuss Brawl Mods" thread. Try to keep your posts relevant.

 

[Xyro77]

Those two statements aren't really associated at all. We should put our time into a game we like less... that's ****ing stupid.

Recognize your bias. The fact that hacking talent is strongly correlated B+ is that the game and the community actively rewards that sort of talent. Research and development is the same way. Though now that I've got a month off from class (thank god) I'll be working on both vBrawl and B+, I just hate brawl's mechanics. The reward for doing hours, days of work gathering and analyzing data (and not the pitiful level of analysis most players assume "frame data" is used for) is so much more limited for Brawl because the best strength of quantitative analysis is revealing frame traps, which are extremely rare in vBrawl. Take on block analysis. No move has a positive advantage on block in vBrawl. I could find adv data on hit, and I intend to for vBrawl, but the low hitstun makes it really just sad to work on when compared to the usable but not overly large adv windows of B+.

I'd welcome any argument about vBrawl being more interesting to research if you were actually good at doing this in the first place. Yes, I've seen your work... and I'm not impressed at all. Just fyi I've done more work in B+, but I've done a ton of work testing vBrawl as well. And I plan on bringing a lot of the hacking and research talent from B+ and the other modding groups into vBrawl... cause that information is useful to all of us as well.

Whew. Your post really offended me. The B+/B-/PM/BBrawl researchers are more skilled, and they should apply that skill to a game that they actually like. Its fortunate for people who have no concept of the work required for this sort of thing that vBrawl data is necessary to us which inevitably draws some of us into vBrawl research. A final point: people don't share research in vBrawl like they do in B+. Its a totally different atmosphere because there is a positive community use for the data, whereas in vBrawl giving up something like say... MK's advantage windows on hit is massively disadvantageous to the researcher who just spent several hours on a single move (and that''s not even taking decay/aura into account).

Why would i care about how much work u put into B+ or B- or BB? Its like saying "i put more work into folding my bed sheets than you....HA!"

lol B+/-/BB is a waste.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Lesbians: they can't read.

 

[Xyro77]

B+/-/BB: it will never go anywhere

 

[Kole]

Budget Player Cadet: Bandit pwned him too hard

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Jokes: If it wasn't funny the first time, the fourth time isn't likely to be either.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Budget Player Cadet: The reason people hate hacked versions of brawl.

and secondarily

Orion: Gaying it up with ***tastic counterpicks since 2008

 

[Pierce7d]

I spent several minutes contemplating whether I was actually going to respond to this mess.

A) I like vBrawl a lot. More so than any hacked version actually, (I dislike playing B+ though I respect the game, I greatly enjoy BBrawl and B-). I happen to understand the game on a deeper level than even most of the hackers who can crunch the numbers (and mind you, I'm fairly good at numbers), and can remember that fighters are more than just numbers (not saying that anyone neglected this fact). I also find the rewards in Brawl adequate for the work I put in, because at higher levels, it's amazing.

B) I greatly liked Minus with Brawl physics. Just saying. More importantly, Veril is correct. We should definitely respect the hackers for their hard work. Who are you to judge anyone for their choose of entertainment. Simple justices such as, "Treat others as you want to be treated," still come into play. I am ASHAMED of any Brawl player who KNOWS of the struggle we went through to be acknowledged as legitimate game, and dares to point fingers at others. Even today we still have to deal with crap, so how dare you dish it out as well?

C) Orion, the trick is to get so good, you can beat almost anyone with any character you choose. That's what I did!

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Jokes: is it funny yet?

 

[6Mizu]

I spent several minutes contemplating whether I was actually going to respond to this mess.

A) I like vBrawl a lot. More so than any hacked version actually, (I dislike playing B+ though I respect the game, I greatly enjoy BBrawl and B-). I happen to understand the game on a deeper level than even most of the hackers who can crunch the numbers (and mind you, I'm fairly good at numbers), and can remember that fighters are more than just numbers (not saying that anyone neglected this fact). I also find the rewards in Brawl adequate for the work I put in, because at higher levels, it's amazing.

B) I greatly liked Minus with Brawl physics. Just saying. More importantly, Veril is correct. We should definitely respect the hackers for their hard work. Who are you to judge anyone for their choose of entertainment. Simple justices such as, "Treat others as you want to be treated," still come into play. I am ASHAMED of any Brawl player who KNOWS of the struggle we went through to be acknowledged as legitimate game, and dares to point fingers at others. Even today we still have to deal with crap, so how dare you dish it out as well?

C) Orion, the trick is to get so good, you can beat almost anyone with any character you choose. That's what I did!

Pierced I completely agree with what you said. In fact I like vBrawl so much that I'd switch my main to MK, but only if it was my last resort.

 

[Slowmoveguy]

People hate losing. They try to play with advantages and call themselves "good players"

 

[da K.I.D.]

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=10303964&postcount=4633

 

[adumbrodeus]

People hate losing. They try to play with advantages and call themselves "good players"

Play to win, use every advantage you can get.


You don't see people playing baseball and taking two strikes before attempting to swing and then complaining cause the other team isn't doing it.

 

[Sensei Seibrik]

I just basically read the first post


and saw the zss winning comment


in nickriddle's defense.....


people have tried Cping him falco, quite a few actually.


they just lose cause he really knows that matchup, and it's not their mains to know it so well.




so... its not always so free to just CP anyone and win cuz of a bad MU.

 

[Slashy]

Is Team Fortress 2 in beta despite having balance updates twice every year? What about Pokemon, King of Fighters, Street Fighter and it's numerous updates with every installment/update.

No

So even if Brawl- gets continuous updates, that won't destroy its metagame.

Balanced Brawl is one of the worst pieces of **** I've ever seen. Balanced Brawl makes ludicrous changes to be balanced, + makes more sensible changes for balance, - takes it one step further than that.

Jigglypuff spawning items does not balance the game, it just gives me more of a reason to not take it seriously as actual balance.

If you want to succeed at Brawl- you should have a bunch of secondaries rather than one main, like PKMN.

 

[ThatGuyYouMightKnow]

Everyone dissing +/-/even BB like this is pretty sad.

Tell me, where are your tournament results.

 

[fkacyan]

I just basically read the first post


and saw the zss winning comment


in nickriddle's defense.....


people have tried Cping him falco, quite a few actually.


they just lose cause he really knows that matchup, and it's not their mains to know it so well.




so... its not always so free to just CP anyone and win cuz of a bad MU.

If they can't shut ZSS down they have literally no idea how to play Falco, it's not a difficult matchup by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[Slashy]

My problem with Brawl is its crappy balance, I don't want to work so much harder because a character I like was just designed to be a crappy character, and combos are a very fun follow up to a successful hit. I'm not looking to make a large sum of money by playing Smash, so the several side tournaments dedicated to Brawl+ make training and playing it worth my time.

Nearly everything about Brawl+ is preference, and we are comfortable with periodic balance changes until every balance suggestion can be deemed by our community as absurd or unnecessary.

Say what you will about Brawl+'s gameplay and mission statement, but failing or refusing to recognize the numerous balance improvements from Brawl in Brawl+ is an insult to the efforts of the entire B+ BR.

 

[Veril]

On topic:

Using a character who you are less familiar with than your main in a competitive setting where you have to deal with pressure and where your chance of doing something dumb and losing to a person who knows the matchup better is why people won't always CP.

Its a good idea in theory but people ARE playing to win and for many the main is a tool for doing that. CPing to get an advantage when you aren't getting countered yourself is a risk. What might be effortless to do in a lot pressure situation with the under-trained character is gonna be a lot tougher in competition

@B+ers: please just let this be. I appreciate the sentiment from Pierce7D and really agree that the point at which attacking vBrawl was acceptable (in public at least) has passed, and the thread should get back on track.