While player preference does not matter, the pinnacle of competitive play and the most developed section of the metagame enlies in the top players, no? If the majority of them dislike the ruleset and they are ignored and simply trampled over, there is not much hope for the "competitive play" that will occur at these tournaments. At the same time, one could assume these tournaments do not care about any player opinions at all or insight, or whether they enjoy it or not they'll simply shove the ruleset in our face. I can't say that this is the best way to treat the players, and there should be respect within the TO's or people will basically say "**** you" and won't attend in the long-run. Of course, they will attend the rest of MLGs because the tournaments are sparse, but if they continued for a year or more straight, the attendance would indefinitely decline.
So if top players are scrubs, we should listen to them because they're top players?
Alright, but metaknight still exists and does pose a problem. Btw, I was joking.
If MK poses a serious problem to the system, I still hold the belief that making MK-specific rules to make the system work better is better than ending up with a worse system overall.
Alright, but I was responding to your statement that "landing is easier on Final Destination" and trying to provide examples of why that's false.
k
Well, I agree. Something needs to be done about Metaknight, but adding stages in which he recieves a buff upon and the ability to start on CS, Halberd, or lylat (where he has the advantage over the majority of the cast thru strategies I've lightly listed, as opposed to much less for over-all everyone on bf, sv, and fd so I believe that is a buff) you are doing the opposite of helping to relieve the problem.
How do you relieve the problem, by nerfing MK in ways that just happen to make the game worse for the rest of the cast? Also, lylat is hardly broken for MK.
Lol. That doesn't matter if his performance is superior on Delfino Plaza in comparison to everyone else. This is not the case on battlefield, smashville, and final destination for metaknight. Also, this is a very strong counterpick stage for DDD if your character is able to be chaingrabbed--and even if not, he is still good here. You can't just claim "then simply strike it" because that is enforcing me to assume that you know the stage should not exist in the starter section for it's somewhat heavy advantageous characteristics. We should not throw stages that do not belong in the starter list into them merely because they can be striked, and therefor will never be played upon game 1.
I'd say strike it, but that argument kinda sucks unless you're using the 15/17-stage starter list (as in, strike from all legal stages, which is definitely the most fair system). I don't feel that delfino should have a place in the 9-starter stagelist though.
However, let me put it to you this way. Metaknight has the options of going to any number of stages that help him abuse his opponent. I mean, out of the whole MLG stagelist, how many stages on it are actually not great for MK? If the only stages he is bad on are FD, BF, and SV (relatively bad), what does this say about him? If he can abuse the whole cast on most stages, isn't this saying that he is able to normally abuse the whole cast, if we do not model the rules around him as a character (by instituting a smaller stagelist)?
Yet even so, it does not make these stages justifable and fair. Unavoidable situations in which you are "outplayed" do not occur on the previous neutrals because the counterpick stages (that are sometimes in the starters) strip options far more often. Also, please stop directing statements at me, this isn't about me.
That was a hypothetical 'you'. And again, these unavoidable situations? Just play campier and you won't run into them.
Decent logic, but still not exactly on point. Doesn't matter, though--it's irrelevant.
Just figured, of all the stages, diddy would prolly do better on the ones with strong hazards.
Does not make it legitimate to direct statements at me claiming I am sellfish and fighting for soley myself.
Fine.
I still am finding it hard to believe that you were outlpayed if the osbstacle randomly appears after you were hit, and that because the stage renders you entirely out of options you were outplayed. These "outplayed" situations are more often common than you think, especially against aerial-based characters. Even if you train constantly on a stage like norfair or brinstar, the situations can and will still happen to you. The warnings before-hand do not matter in these scenarios.
You get hit and then the lava wall appears in front of you on norfair. How is this different from the situation where the lava wall was already there and you get hit into it? You should be playing carefully in any situation where it could potentially be there, especially when you aren't sure it's there. It merely offers an extra risk-reward factor-you can play aggressively, trying to shove your opponent into the hazards that are there or may appear there (also, btw,
there is a pattern to norfair's hazards, merely not where they appear), or you can play defensively, trying to avoid the chance of getting hit into an appearing hazard.
The scenery changes alter the matchup, and force characters to play differently. It is a counterpick stage. The previous 5 starter set had no stages that suddenly forced individuals to change up their game depending on the scenery/time period or stripped one of options and that is where I'm drawing the line.
What?
No, the changing scenery on CS does not constitute a counterpick stage, above all because everyone knows what's coming. If you go to Castle Siege, what happens? Everyone knows that first you go to part one, then there's the transition, then you go to part two, then there's the transition, then you go to part three, then there's the transition, and then you go back to part one and it loops from there. If you go to castle siege, your are banking on playing on all 3 transformations (just like in either pokemon stadium, or on frigate orpheon-you have to expect to play on the transformations there if you're going to go there). I mean, would you consider a stage that flipped between YI, SV, BF, MC, and FD in a set, timed order a counterpick (mario circuit is in there mostly because of the second transformation of CS-keep in mind that non-permanent walkoffs do not hold the same centralizing factors as permanent ones)? You know it's going to happen, you can guess when it's going to happen, you know how it works.
Depending on scenery, you may or may not be worse off. However, you
know that this is going to be the case when you go to the stage, and it's up to you to camp on the parts that treat you badly and try to abuse the parts that treat you well.
DDD is great on halberd, delfino, battlefield, smashville, FD, ps1. Metaknight is great.. hell, everywhere but yoshis island, and snake us great on everywhere but possibly delfino, yoshis, and lylat. Wario is great on.. and it can continue.
Let's extrapolate this to the 15-stage starter list (striking from the full MLG stagelist). In order for the stagelist to effect the matchup heavily, you have to be ridiculously bad against your opponent's character on
8 legal stages. Or, if you want to drop Norfair and Green Greens, and then maybe PS2 and one other stage (picto, maybe?), 6-7. Doesn't this say something about your character? You have to be terrible against your opponent's character on 8 stages in a liberal stagelist, or 6-7 in a conservative one.
"Like any?" What is a good stage for metaknight? Last time I checked, it was basically everywhere. All of the stages are good starters for metaknight, because he is metaknight. MLG is making it more severe when delfino, and halberd are tossed into the list and the striking system enters the equation. The stages one would normally have a preference to fight metaknight on are lost due to these extra stages requiring to be striked. That goes for other characters as well, like DDD.
MK only has good stages. Relatively speaking though, is SV a good stage for MK? No, it isn't. Compare that to how he performs on an average between brinstar (his best counterpick) and FD (usually his worst stage in matchups that matter). This average is not going to be SV, or anywhere near it. It's going to be closer to Frigate. MK is incredible on counterpick stages, and still great on starters.
Now, comparitive to the rest of the cast, SV is a good stage for MK. I mean, look at falco or ICs, FFS. They do great on FD, decently on a few other "starters", and then suck almost everywhere else. MK on SV is great for MK, if you look at what kind of benefits Falco or ICs get from their third- or fourth-worst stage (or, **** it, their third to fourth BEST stage!).
However, are we really going to limit MK surgically to fix this issue? Why?
The quote: "A 9-starter stage list ensures that game 1 be played on the fairest stage possible" is absolutely and entirely false. The stages you have a preference for fighting metaknight or other characters on have preferences because the matchup ratios are almost even or most favorable there--and these stages are striked.
It is false, you're right. It still benefits the characters who prefer stages like FD/SV/BF. The full-starter stage list ensures that game 1 be played on the fairest stage possible for that matchup. Is FD the fairest stage for the falco-MK matchup? It's probably about 50-50 there... No, of course not, the falco-MK matchup is NOT 50-50! You have to look to the stage that gives the median advantage for the characters, and the closest option you have to that is... well, the median favored stage. And before you start complaining, remember-you have 7 strikes! If MK completely destroys your character on 8 legal stages (or, going from the EC rules, 6), then maybe the matchup is just... bad?
Also, look at what you're saying.
"The stages you have a preference for fighting metaknight or other characters on have preferences because the matchup ratios are almost even or most favorable there--and these stages are striked"
"The stages you have a preference for"
Yeah, these are the stages that
belong striked-they are your favorite stages. They don't provide an even start for the matchup, they start one which is advantaged for your character-they prefer to fight on those stages.
Opinion, whatever. No one would want to start out on frigate except for snake, Donkey Kong, and aerial based characters because it is one of their traditional counterpicks...
Then strike it. I'm just saying, it's better than delfino as a starter if you are going to limit the list.
There have been times where I've been hit "out there" and the lava coming in horizontally following that appeared, hitting me. I wasn't outplayed, it was outright random and "lucky." This can happen to anyone.
Answered above.
You have to exlpain to me why they are so terribly efficient on these stages like it's DDD on rainbow cruise, because that's what it's coming off as every time I see you state something like or about this. This is not ROB on frigate.
It isn't like DDD on RC or ROB on Frigate. That doesn't make it a fair stage though. Those characters need a very specific type of stage to not get abused by the stage-they are ridiculously limited characters. and remember, we aren't going to RC against DDD, or Frigate against ROB-you strike those stages in those matchups.
I think the main issue here is that it's hard to see FD/BF/SV as a falco counterpick, mostly because when you look at the top counterpicks for chars like ROB, or DDD, or MK, they provide a ridiculous advantage for that character in most matchups. The issue here is simply that falco doesn't have qualities that cause him to **** way harder on a certain type of stage. He is a limited character, really. He's decent most places, but unless he goes to certain stages, he has trouble. And if you strike those stages against him, well, he's in for a rough time.
As if pushing them "out of the safe zone" is a conscious strategy the opponent keeps in mind.
They should if they're playing on frigate. In fact, they should be "pushing the opponent out of the safe zone" on any stage-including those without hazards. The safe zone on FD is the middle of the stage; the safe zone on YI is under the main platform in the middle; the safe zone in pictochat is the bottom left of the stage. You have to try to keep your opponents out of that zone and yourself in it.
That's one solution. But at this point, there is not enough time to do so. You will not get very far according to the time periods that MLG has occured. You've had to have mained them from the start or picked them up long before to perform decently.
It was a joke. Falco/diddy/etc. are still capable of functioning in the MLG stagelist. They just go from top tier status to mid-high tier status, where they belong due to there extremely limited stage options.
Yes, I've invented a game-breaking camp scenario on pictochat in which no one can dream of approaching me. I'd say that was unfair.
All right. Now how long does this last? You're in the boxes, or under the whale, or beneath the waves of the ship. How long does this advantaged position last? Your opponent can play keep-away until it vanishes on its own. And in the rocket situation, they can either play it safe (maybe even detonate the rockets with projectiles), or take the risk/reward and try to throw opponents into the rockets.
Not because of anything they have done, but because of what the stage decided to do.
And that's fine. It's possible to say exactly when a hazard will spawn on pictochat, just not which, and again, there's a safe zone. The stage merely raising the risk/reward aspect of gameplay does not in itself make the stage broken.
No, the player with the most versatile character wins.
That's a factor. However, being versatile is a
positive character trait.
Untrue. You can play as "safe" or "smart enough" as you want, and you can still be hit by that rocket.
If you're not right in its way, or your opponent didn't hit you into it, I don't see this happening.
Wait, whoah whoah whoah. So you should be conscious of the minor chance of a line popping up above you at all times, even though it is rare? So no johns if it appears above you and you die? Sounds ridiculous to me, or some cheap shot excuse for his loss/future events of this happening.
There's a one in–what, 13?–chance. And also, it can only appear during a certain time-specifically, exactly 13 seconds after the last hazard disappeared. Being concious of that hazard when you are in a very disadvantaged position (below the stage without jumps?) during a very specific time frame... Seems reasonable enough to me.
They are both very hardcore counterpicks.
Yeah, but different people are good on them in different manners. But w/e, kinda irrelevant.
No, we have a player using the stagelist to it's fullest potential using all metaknight, counterpicking and starting on "aka gay stages.". He won, when he ordinarily doesn't.
Isn't anti like, a top metaknight?
I mean, if it was someone like Orion or Plank or someone who doesn't usually place that high, I could understand it. Also, who's to say he would've won if, you know, the rest of you guys stepped up your game, abused the stagelist to your advantage, learned the good tactics on norfair (I hear diddy is supposed to be pretty good there if you know how to abuse the stage hazards...)/ggs/etc... That he was the only one who abused an available resource and then won because of that... So?
