Yoshi v. Meta Knight

[Gindler]

btw does anyone mentioned that you can Double Jump Nair MK out of the tornado? Didn't use it as yet but I didn't get a chance yet xD

I can't believe I haven't tried that. I just hope the Nair comes out without jumping, I've DJ Nair in snake's Nair so tornado should be a cake walk.

.________.
do you have any yoshis around that know what they're doing?

it's definitely around the 60/40~65/35 range....

I'll agree with this, although an MK fairing in yoshi's blind spot can be annoying.

 

[pwiito]

I most of the times have trouble with this matchup, but what i really need to know is : What do i do if mk decides to camp, he just keeps power shielding and dodging and I'm loosing the game XD and he knows how to punish my recovery which gets annoying because the last thing i want for to to happen is to get hit by shuttle and go straight? I usually try to predict what mk going to do and hopefully get him into CG or something, but when he's camping,, i can't outcamp him and he can pretty much read my options(predict), Help XD

 

[Sharky]

if you're afraid of being shuttlegimped try to hold up while recovering so you'll always have at least decent DI.

 

[Airborne]

I most of the times have trouble with this matchup, but what i really need to know is : What do i do if mk decides to camp, he just keeps power shielding and dodging and I'm loosing the game XD and he knows how to punish my recovery which gets annoying because the last thing i want for to to happen is to get hit by shuttle and go straight? I usually try to predict what mk going to do and hopefully get him into CG or something, but when he's camping,, i can't outcamp him and he can pretty much read my options(predict), Help XD

all i can really say is learn all of your possible mixups, anything rediculously absurd even, and just find ways that you can try to trick your opponent to "punish" you... then punish their reaction accordingly, whether it be usmash, pivot fsmash, DJC egg lay, retreating bair, etc; whatever will punish properly.

 

[.Marik]

We should just pick Snake or MetaKnight instead of using Yoshi.

Honestly.

 

[Shiri]

We should just pick Snake or MetaKnight instead of using Yoshi.

Honestly.

See, this is why I appreciate you.

 

[Delta-cod]

WeEveryone should just pick Snake or MetaKnight instead of using Yoshi.

Honestly.

Fixed.

It just doesn't work that way, though. XD

 

[pwiito]

all i can really say is learn all of your possible mixups, anything rediculously absurd even, and just find ways that you can try to trick your opponent to "punish" you... then punish their reaction accordingly, whether it be usmash, pivot fsmash, DJC egg lay, retreating bair, etc; whatever will punish properly.

yeah i guess :/, but it sounds kinda hard to trick my opponent into punish and then punish the most the match while mk camps u, also if the mk just keeps running away, it's going be hard for me to get the kill :/, I'm trying to save my moves, so that i can kill mk as early as possible. and try to get to get him to think that his camp is not working by being aggressive from time to time

 

[nicalobe]

Back to the MK Whorenado, I know a full speed Egg Roll can break through it, but that is the problem, it has to be full speed. MK can initiate the whorenado at anytime with almost full priority, the only thing we can do is predict this move, and that is if we are far enough away to get some speed going to raise our priority. If we predict this move too much we get punished too easily. I've played in too many MK games where all the opponent did was use whorenado to get me to high percent then finish me off with one of his 25 KO moves. Are there any other, more reliable ways to counter this completely imbalanced move? Or are we doomed to live in a world where MK can easily kill any character with the B button?

 

[Delta-cod]

Have you tried a pivot/reverse egg roll? Start the move by pushing the direction away from MK, then slam it back towards him. It gives you full speed right off the start.

I think Usmash can beat Tornado, but there's a certain way you have to hit it otherwise you get hit. If he's low enough you can grab him out of it. Eggs can also work.

 

[bigman40]

You can attempt a DJ retreating Egg lay.

 

[pwiito]

Have you tried a pivot/reverse egg roll? Start the move by pushing the direction away from MK, then slam it back towards him. It gives you full speed right off the start.

I think Usmash can beat Tornado, but there's a certain way you have to hit it otherwise you get hit. If he's low enough you can grab him out of it. Eggs can also work.

Yeah i tend to use pivot and reverse egg lol, i dont have trouble with tornado, im good at predicting it, my only problem is the camp/air camp, when i try to approach mk got a million ways to counter my apporaches

Eggs sometimes go through tornado but sometimes they don't, what's really good against tornado is shielding and then roll just before tornado ends, Mk is quite opened for a grab :D.

I guess what i have to do is think as best as i can

 

[MX778]

Back to the MK Whorenado, I know a full speed Egg Roll can break through it, but that is the problem, it has to be full speed. MK can initiate the whorenado at anytime with almost full priority, the only thing we can do is predict this move, and that is if we are far enough away to get some speed going to raise our priority. If we predict this move too much we get punished too easily. I've played in too many MK games where all the opponent did was use whorenado to get me to high percent then finish me off with one of his 25 KO moves. Are there any other, more reliable ways to counter this completely imbalanced move? Or are we doomed to live in a world where MK can easily kill any character with the B button?

Though, ANY move can get through Meta Knight's tornado from the top part of the tornado where Meta Knight is. Down-B anyone?

 

[Shiri]

Using the Hip Drop can work sometimes, but if you experiment, you'll see that it's not extremely practical.

 

[Poltergust]

You can use it to punish Meta Knight if you SDI out of his tornado, though. It works most of the time.

 

[MX778]

I usually just pivot grab Meta Knight out of his tornado or just grab him right when he gets on the ground.

 

[Delta-cod]

So, with the upcoming tourney, I'd like to try and break away from my inexperience in the MK MU. At least, the MU against competent MKs. Bad ones are so easy. XD

Anyways, I'd like to know good(or tolerable) stages to CP to, and which to ban out of the following stage list.

Neutral:

* Final Destination
* Battlefield
* Yoshi's Story
* Smashville
* Lylat

Stages for Counterpick:

* Delfino Plaza
* Frigate Orpheon
* Battleship Halberd
* Castle Siege
* Rainbow Cruise
* Brinstar
* Pokemon Stadium 1


Out of that, I'd definitely not go to PS 1, Brinstar, or RC. MK's like Delfino, so I'd probably not go there either.

I might go Halberd due to the low ceiling which would help for killing, but I hear MK loves that stage. Castle Siege seems alright to me, and I might do Frigate but I'm not too comfortable on that stage in the first place.

I could CP FD or SV, but those don't give too large a help. I'd assume the MK would ban FD. I'd probably ban Brinstar.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. =D

Back to Whorenado: You can pivot grab it, but if the MK stays a bit in the air with it, it'll hit the blindspot(FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU).

 

[pwiito]

Mk always bans FD against yoshi

 

[auroreon]

I usually just pivot grab Meta Knight out of his tornado or just grab him right when he gets on the ground.

A smart MK is not going to spend much time on the grounf unfortuanatly.

On the subject of the tournado... I think that is really the least of our worrys in this matchup, most of Yoshis moves can beat it. I have successfully used Usmash, Eggs, Egglay, Pivot Grab, Uair and Nair to beat the tournado. Even if it does get you, you can easily just SDI out and occaisionally punish if you are very quick.

Onstage I don't think Yoshi is at much of a disadvantage, eggs force MK to approach IF YOU KNOW HOW TO USE THEM. I see Yoshis getting punished for Eggtoss far too much as this is a move you really shouldn't be getting punished for, sure MK is fast but as long as you use eggs safely you won't get punished for it.
When an MK does decide to try and punish the egg, be ready with a pivot grab.
Unfortuanatly pivot grabs are not as usefull as they would first appear to be, you will not be able to pivot grab a falling... you are just gonna get Daired.

The real place where I believe MK dominates this matchup is offstage. The biggest thing I try to avoid when facing MK is going offstage, if MK catches you offstage it is unlikely you are going to make it back to the stage with all your stocks intact.
MK completely and utterly destroys Yoshis recovery, you have one hope of reaching the stage again and thats a rising airdodge or the super armour in the DJ. Unless you can use a rising airdodge or the super amour to break past MK by absorbing a Dair, he will just bully you with Dairs untill you reach the horizontal death zone. Its horrendous.

 

[hadesblade]

If meta does get you offstage early, I usually rely on my super armor to get me back. Don't recover high. You will get shuttle looped. If mk is onstage, then recover to the ledge, if mk follows you offstage, then try to land right past the ledge. Like I've always said, you shouldn't be getting ganked gimped (too much hon XD) by meta.

As for delta, assuming they ban fd I would just go sv/bf, which ever you didn't play on first game. Halberd has the same problems as delfino, except without the bonus of walkoffs. I've been trying to counterpick mk's for a long time, it seems like neutrals are generally the smartest thing, because the other stages don't hurt mk/help us enough to make them better, unless you know the mk your playing specifically hates one of the stages. Banning brinstar is probably your best choice. You might want to practice frigate, because I've had a few mk's cp it on me.

And I'm glad I'm not the only one that thinks mk can't punish smart egg tossing.

 

[Bwett]

You need to mixup your recovery alot. Recover mostly low, but recover high from time to time. Your dair can beat shuttle loop, although not always, and sometimes it can be easier to trade hits to get back than trying not to get daired near the edge.

As for auroreon, all your ways to beat MK's tornado are sound except nair and uair. Both of those, you need to be inside the tornado to do so, with uair being extremely rare.

 

[bigman40]

Do you think that a retreating egg lay would be a very good use when yoshi is either in the air, or in a position where none of the other moves will catch MK fast enough while he's in nado?

 

[Bwett]

In general, when you feel like you don't have alot of time to react to punish something, egglay, nair, dsmash, and grab should be used. Whenever you are falling to the ground, the opponent assumes that you are vulnerable right before you touch the ground so they charge in with a grab, dash attack, something, so just retreat to one side, and egglay when they approach. This also works against tornado.

Also, for those that say dsmash sucks, when there comes a time when you want a heavy hit to punish someone, but you don't have the time for usmash or fsmash, you should be using dsmash. Dsmash is a great move if you know it will hit because then you can't get punished for it.

 

[Gindler]

A smart MK is not going to spend much time on the grounf unfortuanatly.

On the subject of the tournado... I think that is really the least of our worrys in this matchup, most of Yoshis moves can beat it. I have successfully used Usmash, Eggs, Egglay, Pivot Grab, Uair and Nair to beat the tournado. Even if it does get you, you can easily just SDI out and occaisionally punish if you are very quick.

Onstage I don't think Yoshi is at much of a disadvantage, eggs force MK to approach IF YOU KNOW HOW TO USE THEM. I see Yoshis getting punished for Eggtoss far too much as this is a move you really shouldn't be getting punished for, sure MK is fast but as long as you use eggs safely you won't get punished for it.
When an MK does decide to try and punish the egg, be ready with a pivot grab.
Unfortuanatly pivot grabs are not as usefull as they would first appear to be, you will not be able to pivot grab a falling... you are just gonna get Daired.

The real place where I believe MK dominates this matchup is offstage. The biggest thing I try to avoid when facing MK is going offstage, if MK catches you offstage it is unlikely you are going to make it back to the stage with all your stocks intact.
MK completely and utterly destroys Yoshis recovery, you have one hope of reaching the stage again and thats a rising airdodge or the super armour in the DJ. Unless you can use a rising airdodge or the super amour to break past MK by absorbing a Dair, he will just bully you with Dairs untill you reach the horizontal death zone. Its horrendous.

I love it when MKs stay in the air, they can't punish egg toss lag unless they're really on the ground

As for recovering, I see people get way too worried when an MK chases them off stage. Just stay calm and you'll be fine, pick up wolf and you'll learn some patience with recovery

MKs Uair is the thing I hate, being above MK SUCKS with yoshi

 

[SOVAman]

A lot of mks play pretty grounded

You can just Dair mk when you are above him it works

 

[Airborne]

In general, when you feel like you don't have alot of time to react to punish something, egglay, nair, dsmash, and grab should be used. Whenever you are falling to the ground, the opponent assumes that you are vulnerable right before you touch the ground so they charge in with a grab, dash attack, something, so just retreat to one side, and egglay when they approach. This also works against tornado.

Also, for those that say dsmash sucks, when there comes a time when you want a heavy hit to punish someone, but you don't have the time for usmash or fsmash, you should be using dsmash. Dsmash is a great move if you know it will hit because then you can't get punished for it.

dammit, i forgot about egg laying upon landing... i feel much safer in the air now, though it's obvious that i shouldn't feel safe. XD

and yes, dsmash is too gud (AT 50 AND UP OR SO)

 

[auroreon]

As for auroreon, all your ways to beat MK's tornado are sound except nair and uair. Both of those, you need to be inside the tornado to do so, with uair being extremely rare.

Yes, of course Nair and Uair are not reliable for beating tornado, I was just mentioning that they are capable of beating the nado.

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

Don't recover high. You will get shuttle looped.

Uhh dair beats that tho right?

 

[Bwett]

Not all the time

 

[Delta-cod]

As for delta, assuming they ban fd I would just go sv/bf, which ever you didn't play on first game. Halberd has the same problems as delfino, except without the bonus of walkoffs. I've been trying to counterpick mk's for a long time, it seems like neutrals are generally the smartest thing, because the other stages don't hurt mk/help us enough to make them better, unless you know the mk your playing specifically hates one of the stages. Banning brinstar is probably your best choice. You might want to practice frigate, because I've had a few mk's cp it on me.

And I'm glad I'm not the only one that thinks mk can't punish smart egg tossing.

Lol thanks for the advice. =D

Also, I don't think any smart Egg tossing can be punished. But I'm a big fan of this, I'm biased.

You need to mixup your recovery alot. Recover mostly low, but recover high from time to time. Your dair can beat shuttle loop, although not always, and sometimes it can be easier to trade hits to get back than trying not to get daired near the edge.

I don't think recovering high is too bad. I think Dair beats SL as long as you hit him past the invincibility frames, so it's good. I'd assume Yoshi Bomb does too, so you can get to the ledge that way. Falling Egg Lay is too good as well. <3

dammit, i forgot about egg laying upon landing... i feel much safer in the air now, though it's obvious that i shouldn't feel safe. XD

Egg Lay is so good for covering landings. <3

 

[Poltergust]

Also, for those that say dsmash sucks, when there comes a time when you want a heavy hit to punish someone, but you don't have the time for usmash or fsmash, you should be using dsmash. Dsmash is a great move if you know it will hit because then you can't get punished for it.

What about Yoshi Bomb? They both come out in the same amount of frames. Although, I guess his d-smash has longer range.

 

[Depster]

I think I've figured out the Dair thing. I think it only hits meta when he is facing away from you. You won't get priority over the sword, but you can hit his body if you can miss the sword hitbox.

 

[hadesblade]

Yeah, I used to be strong in defending ledge cancelled ground pound, and its great, but im learning mk's uair will go right through it, along with dair that you might be using to get through his shuttle loop, and you can't really airdodge the uair either, because, well, 13 frames... he'll have time to nair/nado you as you come out of the airdodge.

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

I think Dair beats SL as long as you hit him past the invincibility frames, so it's good.

Now i read somewhere that SL doesn't have any invincibility in the air. (i think it was here too) Any truth to this?

 

[Delta-cod]

Well, I just checked the MK frame data, and you are correct.

GROUNDED SHUTTLE LOOP

frame breakdown:
1-7 startup
5-8 invincibility frames
8-13 strong hitbox out
14-21
22-31 weak hitbox out

frame summary:
Hits on frame: 8
IASA frame: 32



AERIAL SHUTTLE LOOP

frame summary:
hits on frame: 8
IASA frame: 38

Looks like there isn't any invincibility on the aerial one.

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

Well, I just checked the MK frame data, and you are correct.




Looks like there isn't any invincibility on the aerial one.

Score 1 Celes
So when exactly does dair beat shuttle loop?

 

[Depster]

while mk is going up, and only if you are behind him. You aren't gonna beat the sword

 

[SOVAman]

while mk is going up, and only if you are behind him. You aren't gonna beat the sword

nice avi go yoshi

yay

 

[swordslad12]

in my personal experience being yoshi against meta knight, (Lv9) i havent encountered any problems vsing the supposed "best" character.

 

[Sharky]

ok before people start trolling you (cause I know it's gonna happen) for that I'll give you the benefit of being seemingly new to the community, and say that you should NEVER base match-ups off of the computer. They just...aren't all that good when it comes down to it...find some actual people to play in your area or online, talk with people on here, get in some tourneys, you'll see =)

btw welcome to the boards =D