Zelda Matchup Thread // OUTDATED

[RoyalBlood]

Are we done with this now? I'd say it's pretty clear Zelda's got a MUCH tougher time with this matchup than shiek so why bother with Zelda?.

Because this is Zelda Match-up thread, so we discuss strategies as Zelda

Din's Fire keeps Ike off the edge

Zelda punish game is like ROB with D-smash, just shield, spot-dodge -----------> D-smash

QD you can just edgehog even if you don't have invincibility frames if he's too low, it won't kill you until high percents and you can always tech, if he's high Up-air or Up-smash will catch him and kill him around 80 % and 120 % respectively

With aether, place a well-timed edgehog as Sonic said , Din's for extra damage, D-smash to kill, When he is in the above animation of Aether, Up-smash will catch him and take him out of it

Nayru's Love is great for taking Ike off you

You can camp him

Most of his attacks don't push you too far when shielded so shield-grab is an option, for jab DI back to avoid the final hit, (the one with knockback)

Also when edgeguarding anyone, don't try to Lightning kick people, go to LK the ledge :3 it works

Back on Ike, just go to a ledge, shield and he'll slip while doing an aerial, that means super early deads for Ike since he feels to heavy, his aerials have long execution time, so cannot cancel them until the animation is over and when thje animation is over he'll be unable to recover

And also i was playing a match today and i got sent off flying off stage, I didn't move because i wanted to tech on the floor, but since i saw i was almost running out of time, so i tried to tech on the ledge lol anyway zelda's animation where she grabs the ledge didn't happen, just the animation when you get up from a tech, but i mean, i didn't even know if she grabed the ledge, and also add that zelda got a good distance from the ledge 0_0 i mean no ledge-grabbing animation when off-stage, no tech animation, no slammming on the floor animation, some distance away from the ledge, just stand-up animation ( with this i mean the last last last stand-up animation) all of this instantly, maybe faster than MK D-smash 0_0 explain, i wanted to save the replay but it was 3:02 ;_;

Edit : Any recommended stages for Ike?? Personally i think Luigi's Mansion is great :3
Also we're moving onto the third match-up : Zero **** Samus 0_0
Edit 2 : You can continue discussing about Ike But i need to make a summary of Marth -_- *sucks at making summaries* If someone would be king enough to do one it would be appreciated if not, i guess i'll do it -_-

 

[Oh Snap]

Spotdodges don't work that well against Ike unless you time it right since his attacks have startup lag. So if you spotdodge when he's doing the startup animation you might get hit by his fsmash/usmash/whatever before you're able to excute your dsmash.

I don't know about you flying off the stage, though. Brawl is weird loool.

 

[Brinzy]

lol, it's funny how Ike's start-up lag sometimes allows him to kill you...

... which is probably where I got into the habit of shielding all the time.

 

[RoyalBlood]

Spotdodges don't work that well against Ike unless you time it right since his attacks have startup lag. So if you spotdodge when he's doing the startup animation you might get hit by his fsmash/usmash/whatever before you're able to excute your dsmash.

I don't know about you flying off the stage, though. Brawl is weird loool.

And you have to time the spot-dodge :3

But it didn't happen on the air, it happened when landing :O

 

[Brinzy]

Zelda has the advantage on ZSS? I'm not too big on this match-up, but I was leaning towards another even one... though I'll just do more research.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Zelda has the advantage on ZSS? I'm not too big on this match-up, but I was leaning towards another even one... though I'll just do more research.

well... Unless ZSS spams SideB, she doesn't have a good move that outranges Zelda..... and has not really many means of geting inside of Zelda.... and dies really easily.. Iunno... I've always found her easy with Zelda.

 

[Oh Snap]

ZSS is far more faster then Zelda, and I think that's where ZSS has the advantage.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

ZSS is far more faster then Zelda, and I think that's where ZSS has the advantage.

so is sonic :-|

point is... they have a ***** of a time approaching her.

 

[RoyalBlood]

ZSS is far more faster then Zelda, and I think that's where ZSS has the advantage.

Maybe because ZSS runs faster, but Zelda has faster attacks, ZSS ones aren't that fast

And Zelda priority beats ZSS, so a move becomes less appealing when other move outprioritazes it, so it cannot damage

ZSS can combo well, but Zelda stops her from doing so with faster or more priority ones

 

[Oh Snap]

Both characters are lacking approaches, it's just that Zelda has Dins'. But that shouldn't be hard to get past.

I think if Zelda doesn't release her Din's in time, ZSS can just run to her and grab. Now she can send Zelda into the air which is bad for Zelda...

This' probably 50;50. ZSS has the advantage in speed, Zelda has the advantage when she's grounded.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Both characters are lacking approaches, it's just that Zelda has Dins'. But that shouldn't be hard to get past.

I think if Zelda doesn't release her Din's in time, ZSS can just run to her and grab. Now she can send Zelda into the air which is bad for Zelda...

This' probably 50;50. ZSS has the advantage in speed, Zelda has the advantage when she's grounded.

ZSS has the advantage in movement speed... but not really in attack speed... and Zelda's ground game is MUCH better...

Zelda has the advantage here, with ir without shiek.

 

[RoyalBlood]

Both characters are lacking approaches, it's just that Zelda has Dins'. But that shouldn't be hard to get past.

I think if Zelda doesn't release her Din's in time, ZSS can just run to her and grab. Now she can send Zelda into the air which is bad for Zelda...

Any smart Zelda will aim Din's towards the ground to prevent grabs since ZSS has a ranged one, of course this doesn't always work

This' probably 50;50. ZSS has the advantage in speed, Zelda has the advantage when she's grounded...

Then i could say that Sonic has the advantage over everyone because he's the fastest character in the game =/

ZSS has the advantage (is it really an advantage 0.0) in RUNNING SPEED

Zelda has the advantage on attack speed, priority, range and power.

Over view :

ZSS needs to spam Side-B to create an opening

Zelda ground game is better

ZSS cannot go aerial due to Zelda walling her

Zelda can kill ZSS as low as 20% with Dair and 50-60% with Uair 50-70% with Fair Bair

ZSS cannot kill Zelda until 110-140%

You may say that ZSS can juggle (is it well typed 0.0) Zelda, but Airdodge>>ZSS aerials
or Zelda could just teleport below with FW and ZSS will be unable to punish since she'll be in the air and her only option to go down fast is Dair which has bad after lag, Of curse ZSS can somewhat juggle Zelda in the air (somewhat means 3 or 4 hits no like 10 hits :o and that if the zelda player doesn't airdodge), so watch out

 

[-Mars-]

This matchup in my opinion is 60:40 Zelda. ZSS has no means of approaching Zelda, dash into sheild is a decent approach but shield grabbing is risky with Zamus' lag on her grab. ZSS is also outprioritized in every area, paralyzer can be a pain, but a good Zelda won't even let her get close enough to use it. Fsmash and Dsmash are your best friends in this matchup. It also doesn't help that ZSS is so light either. Also IIRC upsmash outprioritizes ZSS's recovery spike.

 

[RoyalBlood]

This matchup in my opinion is 60:40 Zelda. ZSS has no means of approaching Zelda, dash into sheild is a decent approach but shield grabbing is risky with Zamus' lag on her grab. ZSS is also outprioritized in every area, paralyzer can be a pain, but a good Zelda won't even let her get close enough to use it. Fsmash and Dsmash are your best friends in this matchup. It also doesn't help that ZSS is so light either. Also IIRC upsmash outprioritizes ZSS's recovery spike.

Yay :3 Someone agrees with me apart from Sonic

and for paralyzer you have Nayru's ^^ ZSS never expects it :3 so you can follow up with your own move :D

EDIT : XD OMG WE NEVER DISCUSSED CP FOR IKE XD PLEASE SUGGEST SOME FOR IKE AND ZSS

For Ike i like Luigi's :D and for ZSS Castle Siege, the starting scene is OK in the second the statues leave ZSS with lag on her attacks (yeah even more :o) and wall you from Paralyzer shots while Din's will continue to hit AND you can B-throw at 0% for a kill :3

The third also cover you from paralyzer shots and you can edgeguard Zamus better here

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Yay :3 Someone agrees with me apart from Sonic

and for paralyzer you have Nayru's ^^ ZSS never expects it :3 so you can follow up with your own move :D

EDIT : XD OMG WE NEVER DISCUSSED CP FOR IKE XD PLEASE SUGGEST SOME FOR IKE AND ZSS

For Ike i like Luigi's :D and for ZSS Castle Siege, the starting scene is OK in the second the statues leave ZSS with lag on her attacks (yeah even more :o) and wall you from Paralyzer shots while Din's will continue to hit AND you can B-throw at 0% for a kill :3

The third also cover you from paralyzer shots and you can edgeguard Zamus better here

what's that supposed to mean? "apart from sonic" ... my opinion matters *pout*

oh... and I wouldn't recomend Luigi's mansion vs. ike.... he can QD through the pillars, attack though every platform easily and the pilars put afterlag on all his attacks making them even harder to spotdodge correctly.

I just pick FD and press down+B

 

[RoyalBlood]

what's that supposed to mean? "apart from sonic" ... my opinion matters *pout*

oh... and I wouldn't recomend Luigi's mansion vs. ike.... he can QD through the pillars, attack though every platform easily and the pilars put afterlag on all his attacks making them even harder to spotdodge correctly.

I just pick FD and press down+B

D: With apart of Sonic i meant that marsulas was the second person agreeing with me after you </3 *now feels bad* ;_;

So Luigi's Mansion is no good D:

FD is very good for him ^^ about Down-B ..... -_-

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

D: With apart of Sonic i meant that marsulas was the second person agreeing with me after you </3 *now feels bad* ;_;

So Luigi's Mansion is no good D:

FD is very good for him ^^ about Down-B ..... -_-

no I didn't take offense... I figured that's what you meant... please don't cry! D-=>

and why is FD beneficial for Ike? he can't attack through platforms because they don't exist, and it's VERY condusive for stagespikes when edgeguarding (so this as shiek... not Zelda kiddies)


WHAT!?! shiek has a very solid advantage against Ike... Zelda?... not so much... it's a simple choice

edit: also... what is going on in that sig of win?

 

[RoyalBlood]

no I didn't take offense... I figured that's what you meant... please don't cry! D-=>

and why is FD beneficial for Ike? he can't attack through platforms because they don't exist, and it's VERY condusive for stagespikes when edgeguarding (so this as shiek... not Zelda kiddies)


WHAT!?! shiek has a very solid advantage against Ike... Zelda?... not so much... it's a simple choice

I meant FD is very good for the match-up ^^

So Zelda+FD>>>Ike :D

Yeah i know Sheik ***** Ike (F-tilt lock+gimpiness :D) but this is Zelda Match-up Thread D: but thanks for the contribution anyway Sonic ^^

And for ZSS does anyones approves Castle Siege D:?

 

[kATAlyst]

This matchup in my opinion is 60:40 Zelda. ZSS has no means of approaching Zelda, dash into sheild is a decent approach but shield grabbing is risky with Zamus' lag on her grab. ZSS is also outprioritized in every area, paralyzer can be a pain, but a good Zelda won't even let her get close enough to use it. Fsmash and Dsmash are your best friends in this matchup. It also doesn't help that ZSS is so light either. Also IIRC upsmash outprioritizes ZSS's recovery spike.

strange, the zss boards consider it 6:4 zss.

not to refute anything said, but most zss players i know approach with sh foward b or paralyzer. can you explain how this doesnt work?

ZSS cannot go aerial due to Zelda walling her

noob question, how does zelda wall ppl?

Zelda can kill ZSS as low as 20% with Dair and 50-60% with Uair 50-70% with Fair Bair

ZSS cannot kill Zelda until 110-140%

uhh... gimps? also i believe zelda has a difficult time gimping and for zelda's dair/fair/bair, i think zss has better options and ways to prevent it

You may say that ZSS can juggle (is it well typed 0.0) Zelda, but Airdodge>>ZSS aerials

imo it isnt hard to get around or bait airdodges, and usmash handles this well

or Zelda could just teleport below with FW and ZSS will be unable to punish since she'll be in the air and her only option to go down fast is Dair which has bad after lag, Of curse ZSS can somewhat juggle Zelda in the air (somewhat means 3 or 4 hits no like 10 hits :o and that if the zelda player doesn't airdodge), so watch out

imo interrupting FW isnt hard, but at that distance, zss wouldnt hit anyway

again, im not trying to prove anything wrong, but i need more info on this matchup.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I don't think you guys are giving ike enough credit... he's not easy for Zelda....

... but, I digress


CP stages for ZSS..... stages with lumps make her sideB and neutral B MUCH less usefull... and Frigate orpheon gimps her recovery on one side.... but it's not good for yours either...

Iunno... I just like to make sure I don't let her platform chase me.

 

[RoyalBlood]

strange, the zss boards consider it 6:4 zss.

not to refute anything said, but most zss players i know approach with sh foward b or paralyzer. can you explain how this doesnt work?


Din's Fire shuts down both, shield to spot dodge too ^^


noob question, how does zelda wall ppl?

About walling people my concept is that it keeps a character from entering the other character risk zone with attacks that outprioritaze their attacks, thus not letting them score damage but i may be wrong

uhh... gimps? also i believe zelda has a difficult time gimping and for zelda's dair/fair/bair, i think zss has better options and ways to prevent it

No, they kill on stage if you're close to the ledges ^^ A good Zelda won't have any problems landing them trust me :D although gimps count too, Dair is the exception to this rule and can you please explain the preventive measures of ZSS? help is appreciated :D

imo it isnt hard to get around or bait airdodges, and usmash handles this well

airdodge to the side, Love Jump to avoid juggles, Dair outprioritazes some hits from it

imo interrupting FW isnt hard, but at that distance, zss wouldnt hit anyway

with Uair? Airdodge WITH good timing ^^ with Up-B Dair sometimes outprioritazes, BUT it is indeed easy to interrupt FW on it's startup animation so be careful about that, and thanks for pointing it out

again, im not trying to prove anything wrong, but i need more info on this matchup.


Me too :D Thats what a match-up thread is for right? :3

10crystalshards

 

[Brinzy]

CP for Ike? Just go to Smashville so you can have an easier time recovering.

 

[RoyalBlood]

CP for Ike? Just go to Smashville so you can have an easier time recovering.

Low ceiling FTL XD

And the platform moving also aids Ike and Aether ot QD =0

 

[Adapt]

I keep seeing that Zelda attacks faster... when did this happen?

The only quick moves Zelda has are d-smash, dtilt, and usmash. These come out in 4, 5, and 6 frames iirc. Nair is also decent but I can't remember the timing.

ZSS has:
Jab: 1 !!
utilt: 3
uair: 4
dtilt: 6
ftilt: 6
usmash: 6
fair: 6
nair: 6

All her moves with long startup ones whose range makes up for it. And fsmash, dair, and grab are rarely used unless you are stunned.


On to range:
clearly side-B outranges zelda, this has startup lag, but little afterlag
d-smash outranges zelda completely as well, and again, not much ending lag but significant startup lag
there's also paralyzer of course, but it's not very useful in this matchup due to naryu.

Zelda has dins fire. dins is not the greatest projectile and can be avoided by a timely dodge. It can also be shielded and Zelda cannot punish due to ending lag.
fsmash also has pretty good range, but it is rather slow.

Priority: Zelda wins here hands down... ZSS can't match usmash even with the down-B kick

in the air, ZSS has a clear advantage. ZSS mains can effectively bait and punish airdodges. her aerials come out faster and her legs have a bit longer reach. ZSS never wants to be above Zelda (where Zelda has the range advantage) and ZSS has the aerials mobility on her side.

Finally, both die pretty quickly, but Zelda is more powerful, so ZSS will die at lower percentages. ZSS is harder to gimp and better at gimping, but if the Zelda is smart, this will prolly be a non-issue.

I have always believed this is a 50-50 matchup. And I play both characters almost exclusively in serious matches (a bit of ROB too)

 

[RoyalBlood]

I keep seeing that Zelda attacks faster... when did this happen?

Zelda or ZSS =0?

The only quick moves Zelda has are d-smash, dtilt, and usmash. These come out in 4, 5, and 6 frames iirc. Nair is also decent but I can't remember the timing.

ZSS has:
Jab: 1 !!
utilt: 3
uair: 4
dtilt: 6
ftilt: 6
usmash: 6
fair: 6
nair: 6

All her moves with long startup ones whose range makes up for it. And fsmash, dair, and grab are rarely used unless you are stunned.

Dsmash: 4
Usmash: 6
Dtilt: 5
Fair: 8
Bair: 5
Jab: ...11
Ftilt: 12
Dash attack: 6
Fsmash: 16
Standing grab: 12
Dash grab: 11
Utilt: 10
Nair: 6
Uair: 14
Dair: 14
Nayru's: 13

Zelda's Jab outranges ZSS one, but how does this applies??
Some people have said that Zelda has the fastest D-smash in the game, maybe fastest smash in the game, so ROB's D-smash starts at frame 4, but Zelda's supposedly faster, so Zelda's D-smash doesn't start at 4, it starts at 2 T_T But for now we'll stick to the "tested list"

D-tilt and D-smash out speed almost everything that ZSS has except for Jab, Uair and some aerials, i think Nayru's Love takes Zamus out of most of her moves, but it's listed as having a 13 start-up? Wait What? Maybe i misunderstood the list Nayru's Love actually out-speeds jabs, smashes and tilts ....

On to range:
clearly side-B outranges zelda, this has startup lag, but little afterlag

We already said that ^_^

d-smash outranges zelda completely as well, and again, not much ending lag but significant startup lag

Start-up + Significant<<<Din's Fire, and i think you only think that Zelda's use Din's Fire at long range Din's Fire at close range + Instant Detonation >>>Start-up lag+ Significant
And Zelda doesn´t has to approach D-smash and Side-B both have a considerable, (but not big) start-up lag, so in the start-up lag of ZSS, Din's will cancel the move (only applies for Side-B) on D-smash ZSS will get hit, and Zelda will be out of hitstun before ZSS can react, add to this the ability to get away with Love Jump and you're set

Question : Does anyone knows if you can reflect D-smash 0.0 G&W can absorb it so?????



there's also paralyzer of course, but it's not very useful in this matchup due to naryu.

Agreed

Zelda has dins fire. dins is not the greatest projectile and can be avoided by a timely dodge. It can also be shielded and Zelda cannot punish due to ending lag.
fsmash also has pretty good range, but it is rather slow.

Din's is great for pressuring, interrupting recoveries and eating shields :D

Din's Fire --->ZSS dodges -----> D-smash

Din's Fire --->ZSS air dodges ----> Up-smash

*Note: Zelda can also bait dodges and punish, but they don't always work, same with ZSS

Priority: Zelda wins here hands down... ZSS can't match usmash even with the down-B kick



in the air, ZSS has a clear advantage. ZSS mains can effectively bait and punish airdodges. her aerials come out faster and her legs have a bit longer reach. ZSS never wants to be above Zelda (where Zelda has the range advantage) and ZSS has the aerials mobility on her side.

Everyone knows Zelda is not so good in the air but zelda won't go aerial, unless you juggle her but zelda can escape some juggles well due to Love Jump, Floatiness and FW

Zelda is anti-aerial, so yeah <3

Finally, both die pretty quickly, but Zelda is more powerful, so ZSS will die at lower percentages. ZSS is harder to gimp and better at gimping, but if the Zelda is smart, this will prolly be a non-issue.

Both are light weights, but ZSS is lighter right? 0.0 and ZSS cannot kill zelda until like 100% with Down-B. This of course on stage, ZSS off stage can kill at like 70%-90% but Zelda off stage can kill at like 40-80%, but we shouldn't take this as a valid factor, we're better sticking with kills on stage

I have always believed this is a 50-50 matchup. And I play both characters almost exclusively in serious matches (a bit of ROB too)

I play Zelda, ZSS and Peach But ZSS has no means of approaching or entering Zelda's range unless she uses Side-B that will decay and can be shielded NOT spot-dodged *don't even try it* unless only the tip is reaching you

Zelda out-prioritazes her, Zelda kill faster, punishes better, and so on

ZSS juggles well, has a long and safe recovery , attack speed seems about the same as Zelda maybe a lil faster

Any ZSS CP you like to use

Thanks ^^

And I'm sure Zelda has the adavantage here, but just a small one so it would be

Zelda : 60:40 Zelda's Favor since 70:30 seems too stupid :O

Ok, i think we're done with this, i'll update the next match-up ^^

*Note: You can continues discussing ZSS CP and strategies :D

 

[RoguefanAM]

Zelda vs. Ness...even.

Psi-magnet doesn't really do anything to Zelda's who use dins rarely, and even if you do catch yourself throwing a din at Ness (unless you're, like, on the other side of the stage) it usually catches them off guard - they wouldn't expect you to be stupid enough to try it. One more thing, psi-magnet can be used as an attack! Yes, I didn't know this! It has a sweet spot which Ness users often use to trick you with - it doesn't do a whole lot of damage, but still...

PK fire is very annoying, though. Especially since it can't be NL very well, and if you get caught in it, expect to be combo'd unless you very, very quickly DI out of it.

PK thunder also can't be reflected back at Ness because of the crazy directions it comes at the opponent, but NL does render it somewhat useless as a damage racker, so you don't have to worry about that too much.

PK flash is a non-threat, you can see it coming from miles away.

Kinda common knowledge, but Ness users are easily gimpible because of their horrible recovery (which really most people already know by now >.>), especially with dins - you just have to be careful you don't actually hit Ness, just the little purple lightening thing.

One of his better moves, his d-air, is something you have to worry about. It's one of the best spikes in the game, and as an attack by itself it's solid. And it hurts. Be wary of it. I'm not sure if you're uair outprioritizes/outranges his dair, if you're feeling lucky you can try it I guess.

When Ness users use their up b attack as a missle and go toward you- do NOT dodge, most of the time you'll still get hit with the tail of the attack. Jump or sheild, but don't try to dodge.

Oh, and beware of his yo-yo's disjointed hitbox. Don't try to roll near him when he's setting up that attack, most of the time it'll outrange you. Just shield or dodge, and you should be fine.


But all that is just basic knowledge. Sorry, but I don't really know any more.

 

[Adapt]

Naryu's has invincibility at startup iirc, but doesn't hit until later. maybe that why you think it beats out jabs and tilts etc. In training mode on 1/4 speed you can see how long it really takes to hit (a full second, divided by 4 = 15 frames, which is an estimate without counting frames)

ZSS's dsmash cannot be reflected, only absorbed. It's really weird like that.

Din's Fire --->ZSS air dodges ----> Up-smash

why would ZSS airdodge a dins over Zelda's head? ZSS never wants to be above a character

also you say this:

Start-up + Significant<<<Din's Fire, and i think you only think that Zelda's use Din's Fire at long range Din's Fire at close range + Instant Detonation >>>Start-up lag+ Significant

and on the first post:

Tip 3 : Don't use Din's on close range, unless you're sure you're safe

so which is it? Din's at close range has prolly twice the startup lag of ZSS's dsmash, which is far from instant and possibly enough for ZSS to shield after (but I don't have a reliable method to test)

 

[RoyalBlood]

Naryu's has invincibility at startup iirc, but doesn't hit until later. maybe that why you think it beats out jabs and tilts etc. In training mode on 1/4 speed you can see how long it really takes to hit (a full second, divided by 4 = 15 frames, which is an estimate without counting frames)

ZSS's dsmash cannot be reflected, only absorbed. It's really weird like that.

Ok ^_^

Din's Fire --->ZSS air dodges ----> Up-smash

why would ZSS airdodge a dins over Zelda's head? ZSS never wants to be above a character

ZSS doens't need to airdodge over Zelda's head since Din's cannot be over Zelda's head 0_0

Hyphen Smash takes care of that,

also you say this:

Start-up + Significant<<<Din's Fire, and i think you only think that Zelda's use Din's Fire at long range Din's Fire at close range + Instant Detonation >>>Start-up lag+ Significant

and on the first post:

Tip 3 : Don't use Din's on close range, unless you're sure you're safe

so which is it? Din's at close range has prolly twice the startup lag of ZSS's dsmash, which is far from instant and possibly enough for ZSS to shield after (but I don't have a reliable method to test)

Unless you're sure you're gonna outspeed her, of course you're not gonna Din's in Zamus face when she's already starting her Whip, but i'm not too sure about this so i'll need to test it, thanks again for pointing out :D

About Ness, well your Nayru's Love is essencial here, it cancels PK flash, reflects PK Fire back at him even if you're caught in it, takes the annoying PK thunder off you, or you can get hit by it and Love Jump a ridiculous distance

Since Ness Magnet has start-up lag, sometimes Din's will cancel the animation and the attack and damage Ness

And i thought the sweetspot of the Magnet was only for Lucas 0_0

Din's Fire has the property of canceling some start-up animation when the hitboxis coming out (i think) e.g. ZSS Side-B Ness,Psi Magnet, Peach Turnip Pull, etc.

Zelda can gimp Ness badly (well anyone really) U-smash is your friend here

Also Grab release to D-smash does wonders, Dair to footstool or Dait alone too :D

Nayru's Love, when timed right, will stop Ness rocket :D

The Yoyo as it has been mentioned is a disjoint, so be careful

 

[RoguefanAM]

^ Maybe it was Lucus, I just remember being :O at the fact that I got hit with it.

 

[Adapt]

ZSS doens't need to airdodge over Zelda's head since Din's cannot be over Zelda's head 0_0

Hyphen Smash takes care of that

good point, I do love Zelda's hyphen smash

but this is only at very short range right? The ending lag on dins is long enough that I think any followup hit can be shielded. (cept maybe d-smash)

 

[-Mars-]

In the Ness matchup, you can play a lot of mindgames with a fake dins. A lot of times i've faked dins to lightning kick on a ness, Ness and Lucas users make it seem like Dins Fire is useless against them........not quite.

 

[YagamiLight]

Ah, I'm late to the Ike matchup by about 2 characters! I'll still post what I think about the matchup, since it's not 6-4 Zelda's favor. When I said "I might make Zelda an advantage" I meant an advantage for Ike, but in retrospect it's probably 5-5 N and at best 5.25-4.75 Ike's favor.

Essentially, Ike has the best range and power in the whole game, but that doesn't put Zelda out of the running. While Ike has several ways of killing Zelda at super low percents, she still has several ways to keep up the fight. Essentially, I recommend she not go into the Air, as Ike's Fair will make her cry a bit. Instead, I recommend Din's firing whenever possible and Shield->Punishing the Ike. To kill Ike, you might try an up tilt, that usually works against me v_v.

In any case, I can write a detailed opinion for the guide if you'd like. But I recommend you either change it to a small advantage for Ike or just make it neutral.

 

[Brinzy]

Zelda vs. Ness is neutral. I cannot count all of the times I've debated this.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=188116&page=8 for the most recent one.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=180723 yeah, it seems a huge mess of a thread, but eventually Yuna, Sonic the Hedgedawg and myself got most people to go neutral.


Finally, in your guide up near the top, I posted this: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=5180477&postcount=226



I argued against virtually every Ness player who decided to say something, and even some Zelda players. Everyone said that Ness had the advantage. After several weeks of pressuring, I finally got the facts down, the matches, and the general strategies that each character can use against the other. I changed it from disadvantage to Zelda to a neutral one. This is 50:50, and if anyone who thinks otherwise believes that Zelda is disadvantaged here, be my guest and say something, because I'm positive I've gone through it time and time again.

 

[RoyalBlood]

Ah, I'm late to the Ike matchup by about 2 characters! I'll still post what I think about the matchup, since it's not 6-4 Zelda's favor. When I said "I might make Zelda an advantage" I meant an advantage for Ike, but in retrospect it's probably 5-5 N and at best 5.25-4.75 Ike's favor.

Yeah i understood well ^^ that's why i posted wait what? 0_0 lol

Then it could be 55:45 Zelda's Favor ????

Essentially, Ike has the best range and power in the whole game, but that doesn't put Zelda out of the running. While Ike has several ways of killing Zelda at super low percents, she still has several ways to keep up the fight. Essentially, I recommend she not go into the Air, as Ike's Fair will make her cry a bit. Instead, I recommend Din's firing whenever possible and Shield->Punishing the Ike. To kill Ike, you might try an up tilt, that usually works against me v_v.

^^ Yeah Fair is wreckage, the best you can do is to shield, beacuse a good Ike will space it properly, but since it has a understandable amount of Start-up lag, Din's will interrupt the animation where Ike puts his sword above his head ^^ so use Din's at close range ONLY if you're sure you're gonna hit Ike first, if not, don't even try it ;_;

Any Zelda will always prefer the ground over the air :D so don't go into it unless you're gonna kill

As you said, shield, DON'T DODGE unless safe, Ike will mindgame you into smashes :o

Zelda can also kill Ike at super low percents :D like from 0% with Dair, keeping Ike off the stage with sourspoted kicks, you have to be very close to prevent Fairs from him, in the start-up animation of Aether, Dair will spike him, Uair kills him starting from 70%, If you're not too damaged jump into his QD :D D-smash at the edge is almost a guaranteed dead, it doesn´t help that Zelda can D-tilt lock him from 60% to 140% and then B-throw for the kill :D Up-tilt, you better save this move to KO, also Uair outranges Ike in the air, and Lightning Kicks aren't too hard to sweetspot on Ike killing at like 60% :o

Ike can kill Zelda early with his Dair (it has to be sweetspoted), F-smash (you're NOT gonna get hit by this.... right? o.o) and F-tilt i think All his other moves also KO except for Nair and Jab (only at high percents)

In any case, I can write a detailed opinion for the guide if you'd like. But I recommend you either change it to a small advantage for Ike or just make it neutral.

I'm not sure now and a detailed opinion would be appreciated so i can read it (well so everyone can read it and talk about it ^^ since i played some good Ikes

Tip against Ike : ~CROUCH~ HIS BAIR IS COMPLETELY NULLIFIED ON THE GROUND IF YOU CROUCH, YEAH, IT PROTECTS ZELDA FROM A SH FAIR AND MANY OTHER ATTACKS, USE IT BY ANY MEANS WHEN YOU HAVE A CHANCE
SERIOUSLY

 

[Brinzy]

Royal, he's saying give a very, very slight advantage to Ike or just make it neutral.

 

[RoyalBlood]

Zelda vs. Ness is neutral. I cannot count all of the times I've debated this.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=188116&page=8 for the most recent one.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=180723 yeah, it seems a huge mess of a thread, but eventually Yuna, Sonic the Hedgedawg and myself got most people to go neutral.


Finally, in your guide up near the top, I posted this: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=5180477&postcount=226

This is not my guide 0.0



I argued against virtually every Ness player who decided to say something, and even some Zelda players. Everyone said that Ness had the advantage. After several weeks of pressuring, I finally got the facts down, the matches, and the general strategies that each character can use against the other. I changed it from disadvantage to Zelda to a neutral one. This is 50:50, and if anyone who thinks otherwise believes that Zelda is disadvantaged here, be my guest and say something, because I'm positive I've gone through it time and time again.

I hope i don't get flamed for this

Zelda's Advantages :

-U-smash outranges everything that Ness has in the air

-D-smash will outspeed his F-smash, and if it doesn´t outspeed it, it will clash with it

-Ability to gimp Ness very easily

-Can keep Ness off stage and kill him

-Nayru's Love stops PK2 (The rocket)

-Din's Fire will out run PSI magnet animation

-D-tilt lock from 60% to past 100%

-Grab Release to D-smash that is unescapable

-Can reflect PK Fire bak on to Ness mid-attack to follow up with a charged F-smash

-Similar killing power in F-throw and B-throw

-Can tilt lock at the edge and the Dair or D-smash

-When Zelda goes out to edgeguard, just get hit PK thunder, Ness will fall to his doom, while Zelda won't even need to jump to get back on stage

-Dair Outprioritazes PK Thunder

-F-tilt outprioritazes Ness Dair

-Uair outranges Dair

-Dair outprioritazes Uair

-Can get past all of Ness projectiles

-D-tilt outspeeds Yo-yo, crouching to d-tilting protects you from the contrary hit

-Zelda kill earlier than Ness (aside from PK2)

So that's why i said that Zelda MAY have a small advantage when i mentiones the grab release, well my exact words were a super hyper mega minimal advantage but the list above explains my reasons better

*Note : D-smash keeps Marth off the edge, Yeah Zelda's D-smash = Marth's Up-B. Zelda and Marth will trade hits but Marth won't grab the ledge, it's almost guaranteed to kill him past 80%

*Note 2 : I test almost all of my statements

*Note 3 : So people, it's like this right? 0.0 :

1# : 60:40 or 55:45 Marth's Advantage, I'd love to say 55:45, but 60:40 seems better

2# : 55:45 or 50:50 Zelda's Advantage or Neutral, Zelda would have a small advantage, but since the discussion will continue if i keep arguing, so it seems better to me to put 50:50

3# : 60:40 Zelda's Advantage ZSS cannot get inside Zelda :o and gets outprioritazed in any way :O (0.0 that sounded pretty bad -_-)

 

[Oh Snap]

My opinions...

Ness can't really do anything in the air when you're grounded. Usmash is he tries to come on top, Fsmash if he tries to SH.
Try to use Din's to cancel PKT when Ness is trying to recover. I wouldn't recommend eating the PKT yourself (I dunno if anyone does that). I've been killed so many times by that. Or you know what...just edge hog ;P
Try not to go into his grab range at high %s.
Be careful with Ness' PK Fire->grab.

 

[Brinzy]

When I said "your" guide, I meant the Zelda board as a whole.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

yeah... I've talked ness to death... it's even or SLIGHTLY one way or the other.

 

[YagamiLight]

Well, I had a bit of time, so I just wrote a paragraph on the Zelda v Ike matchup. I wrote it from Zelda's perspective, so as to help you guys out more.

"Ike is the character with the highest power and range in the game, and astonishingly high priority in his moves. He has the ability to kill Zelda at really low percents, thanks both to Zelda's weight and his immense power. That said, this isn't a terrible or even a bad matchup for Zelda. It's about even, in fact. The important part is realizing, as a Zelda player, the areas in which you should not trod. First off, you'll be better off going into the air only to kill him with SH Forward or Back Aerials. Jumping for constant aerial combat is going to result in you getting Forward Aired straight away. Speaking of SH hops, beware Ike's lagless Nair which goes into the AAA combo, he'll usually go with a short hop for this. You generally outspeed most of Ike's options and you've got a projectile. Begin the match by Din's Firing to force him to approach. Constant Din's Fires will stop Quick Draw happy Ikes. If he uses a laggy attack against you, be sure to shield it (Don't spot dodge, Ike's attacks have lasting damage boxes!!!) and either grab him or down smash. Dtilt lock helps a bit, so be sure to do that whenever possible. As a finisher, try to throw him or up tilt him. If he hangs by the ledge, don't approach. Instead, use Din's Fire. To stop the quick draw recovery, just jump in front of him. All in all, you're going to have to keep some distance and just hit away at him while avoiding Ike's close combat options. Equal match."