Zelda Matchup Thread // OUTDATED

[RoyalBlood]

Jajaja Bueno, quiero cambiar ZSS a 50:50 y a Peach a 50:50
Entonces quedamos en que Meta Knight es 50:50 verdad ^_^
Oh no! El tema se murió, a ver amigos, como que van posteando más no? Osea, no son gente nice =/
jajaja broma bueno ya, ¿cómo ven?

Hahaha, well, i want to change ZSS to 50:50 and Peach to 50:50
Then we agreed that Meta Knight is 50:50 right ^_^
Oh noes! the thread died, let's see friends, how about posting more? You're not nice people =/
hahaha j/k well now, how do you see?

 

[RoyalBlood]

<---is not in agreement with the 50:50 match up.

I just feel that's it's too easy for MK to get zelda in the air and have her in the air for half the game just trying to get back to the ground.

But it's hard that MK get's Zelda in the air WHEN she's grounded

Din's Fire and D-smash are God here

Nayru's Love serves as an anti-tornado and GTFO me move :D

U-smash is anti-air and D-smash is too fast :D

F-smash also stops the tornado on the ground

And Zelda sorts of kill MK early

and MK cannot juggle so well due to his air speed =/

He can "combo" Zelda in the air for like 2-5 hits at max i think that means the least he'll get is 2 while the maximum is like 4-5 if the Zelda is stupid :D

Never fight him in the air, you're gonna lose, stay grounded when possible

Use D-tilt whenever you can and shield much more than dodge

Edit : That's my "input" please discuss yours too :3

 

[Slyfer070]

It's true that Dtilt against MK works wonders, i'll agree with you on that. But Fsmash is only one of her strengths here if you get MK on the defensive and it likes to eat through his shield and hit through it. But an MK i fight likes to bait fsmash and MK's running grab is so fast it's hardly anything you can do about it if it's baited. Once he grabs you, you're up in the air for around the same amount of hits you said. And does NL really negate the tornado? I swear if it does I think i would have known and would use it everytime lol. But maybe i missed it.

And about my favorite move: Upsmash. I dont know if it's my imagination or not, but if right on top of him and you activate it, it doesnt hit him. Now I say this because there are some characters i can upsmash right on top of them(wolf for example) and stop anythign they're trying to do. MK I'm pretty sure you can't do that, and he can just dsmash you away.

And about his tornado. A good MK would tornado right near you, and din's is a fast move. but it isnt that fast. I mean I know she's strong but i can't see too many pros vs the cons of going against MK.

 

[Slyfer070]

i'm gonna try to get a video up of me fighting MK soon. Maybe you guys can tell me what i'm doing wrong.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

But it's hard that MK get's Zelda in the air WHEN she's grounded

Din's Fire and D-smash are God here

Nayru's Love serves as an anti-tornado and GTFO me move :D

U-smash is anti-air and D-smash is too fast :D

F-smash also stops the tornado on the ground

And Zelda sorts of kill MK early

and MK cannot juggle so well due to his air speed =/

He can "combo" Zelda in the air for like 2-5 hits at max i think that means the least he'll get is 2 while the maximum is like 4-5 if the Zelda is stupid :D

Never fight him in the air, you're gonna lose, stay grounded when possible

Use D-tilt whenever you can and shield much more than dodge

Edit : That's my "input" please discuss yours too :3

I can't speak for using NL vs. Tornado.... but everything else is right.

HONESTLY even if NL works, I wouldn't call it the best option... i you airdodge through it and fall down you can Usmash or uair him for good damage or a KO.


and for ZSS and peach... Iunno... like I said... maybe go for 45:55 and 55:45? but maybe 50:50 is right... I just can't see how

 

[Brinzy]

NL is probably the best thing to use on the tornado because really, she can't fall through that thing.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

NL is probably the best thing to use on the tornado because really, she can't fall through that thing.

because of her floatiness? well she DOES have a decently long airdodge.

 

[-Mars-]

I would airdodge through the Tornado because I can quickly counterattack during MK's afterlag. The only time I would use Naryus is if they consistently use it as an approach and you can see it coming, because if you miss your easily punished.

 

[Brinzy]

What are you going to do when MK easily picks up on that and just goes down with his tornado? What are you going to do if MK decided to just wait below you and still hit you, just like in the first situation? I'm just saying that there will rarely ever be times where Zelda can fastfall + airdodge the tornado, and I'd rather use NL's invincibility frames + hitboxes and hope for the best.

 

[-Mars-]

What are you going to do when MK easily picks up on that and just goes down with his tornado? What are you going to do if MK decided to just wait below you and still hit you, just like in the first situation? I'm just saying that there will rarely ever be times where Zelda can fastfall + airdodge the tornado, and I'd rather use NL's invincibility frames + hitboxes and hope for the best.

If i'm unsuccessful with my airdodge, i'd rather get hit by the tornado than face the consequences of missing with Naryus. I'll give you that Naryus is more effective against the tornado, but your taking a great risk and against MK risks are not something that you should take on a consistent basis.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

If i'm unsuccessful with my airdodge, i'd rather get hit by the tornado than face the consequences of missing with Naryus. I'll give you that Naryus is more effective against the tornado, but your taking a great risk and against MK risks are not something that you should take on a consistent basis.

I concur... and if you ARE sucessful with the airdodge, you can get the very high payout of an up air, A Utilt or a Usmash.



as for the matchup.. I can't help but feel a tiny tiny disadvatage... 55:45?

 

[RoyalBlood]

I feel like we're having a misunderstanding here :o
Nayru's Love takes you out of the tornado when you're INSIDE of it
There's no risk because while you're inside, the only thing that MK can do i keep tornadoing, because after he finishes tornado he enters helpeless animation =/
And at high percents Zelda or any other character fro thath matter are unable to get out of the tornado
You have to be fast with your fingers and keep tapping B
About the match-up, i agree with both 45:55 MK or 50:50 i just cannot decide which
And is PS a good stage? Thats a stage i pick sometimes for MK

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I feel like we're having a misunderstanding here :o
Nayru's Love takes you out of the tornado when you're INSIDE of it
There's no risk because while you're inside, the only thing that MK can do i keep tornadoing, because after he finishes tornado he enters helpeless animation =/
And at high percents Zelda or any other character fro thath matter are unable to get out of the tornado
You have to be fast with your fingers and keep tapping B
About the match-up, i agree with both 45:55 MK or 50:50 i just cannot decide which
And is PS a good stage? Thats a stage i pick sometimes for MK

oh I know what you meant... but airdodging takes you out too and has much more desirable follow up options IMO

umm... yeah... one of those two... I leave it up to others to decide which.

Stadium? hrmm... I suppose that has advantages... as does Luigi's mansion... just do NOT pick stadium 2 dear GOD don't do that.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

I'm wondering why the Ike match up is a 5-5. Most people in here agreed that it is a difficult match up and a few said something along the lines of an uphill battle.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I'm wondering why the Ike match up is a 5-5. Most people in here agreed that it is a difficult match up and a few said something along the lines of an uphill battle.

yeah... except the ike main that came in here... but yeah I agree... and I'm sure rykoshet would as well... Ike has an edge... I'd call it 55:45 at least in ike's favour... and I'll say MK isn't quite even... 55:45 MK there too.

 

[RoyalBlood]

I'm wondering why the Ike match up is a 5-5. Most people in here agreed that it is a difficult match up and a few said something along the lines of an uphill battle.

Ok I'm going to try to give a opinion D:

From Zelda's side, she can combo Ike for like 2-4 hits :o
That make like 20-30% I'd say
Din's Fire gets extra damage when Ike is recovering with either Aether or QD
Zelda can camp Ike D:
Pressures Ike very well with Din's Fire
Nayru's Love stops Quick Draw on spot and pushes Ike away
Zelda Grabs, most notably Backward and Forward throws work very good on Ike
Can start killing Ike starting from 80% even though he is a heavy-weight?
Punishes Ike well but not so good D:
Counter somewhat predictable so it's kind of situational
U-smash pierces Counter when coming from a above (same with Marth and Peach )
Can be intercepted mid-recovery

Ike on the other side has the stupid Fair that has too much range
Can kill Zelda starting from 40% if you're not careful <.<
Aether does too much damage and traps <.<
All of his moves have too much knockback <.<
Broken Jab ;__; and follow up things
Can combo Zelda for like 2-3 hits
Too much knockback (needs reminder)
Bair is a very good punishing tool and kills Zelda kind of early >.>
QD to other moves is a pain
Too much range on a lot of his moves -_-
Cannnot be edgehogged easily (although when you get it down it's very easy :D )
Can kill Zelda while recovering and on-stage appeareance >.>

I'd say even, both have a lot on each other <.<

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

umm... that;s the matchup on paper... in practice it's toally different.... because Zelda has the nagging problem where she just CAN'T get inside of ike to save her life.... well.. I guess she CAN get inside, but she has a hard time doing so...

her dash grab is bad, her dash attack gets shield grabbed, he outranges her smash attacks and tilts and also outranges her air game.... Zelda WOULD be even if she could reliably get inside of his range but, quite frankly, she can't do it often enough...

if you don't believe me... ask ryko.

 

[Rykoshet]

From the Ike Matchup thread

Zelda is not exactly an easy matchup, but Ike has everything on her of importance. His footspeed is better, his recovery is better (and hers is easy to read and punish/kill her out of), his weight, range, aerial game, offstage, and power all outdo hers. The trick to this fight is your shield. Not dodging, not rolling, shielding. Nayru's love, Front, and Up Smash all have lingering hitboxes that stay out for a certain duration based on whether or not they connect. Her front smash is easily spot dodged but the other 2 you're better off just full shielding and punishing her afterwards with a jab/back air/grab, etc. Her going after you offstage is generally a death wish on her part, and the trick to punishing her out of farore's wind is to bait a reaction/premature activation then knowing when to shield on exit, that's it. Your spacing will get better with time against it until you know it sell enough to grab her or smash/tilt/counter her out of it on exit. Din's fire is a terrible projectile, do not get baited to approaching on anything but your own terms against her, if you can frustrate your opponent ot having to approach you all the better. Her grab is slow, you can rightfully jab or grab her out of it before she can get it out in time. If you get down thrown and they attempt to follow up, hit your c stick in the direction she is, a back air will knock her *** straight back to hyrule.

Also, get her offstage/above you and watch her fall apart, she has absolutely no good options from above and self preservation outdoes edging another hit out when offstage since FW has no aerial drift worth a ****, you can edgehog her easily if she dips below the ledge.

This used to be commonly thought to be a 6-4 A for zelda, but in reality as time progresses this is gonna become worse and worse for her, this is more like a 4.5-5.5 D for her.

You have 2 characters that have to play some sort of balanced game against eachother to try to cash in on advantage, but the real bottom line is ike can wall zelda until the day is over if he has to. This is one of the few fights that the second ike takes a lead, he could park his *** wherever he feels like and take advantage of the fact that zelda doesn't have an approach he can't straight up fair her out of (hell, even at a disadvantage ike can do this. If you've played 2 stock aggressive against a zelda, play defensive and see how long it takes for the zelda to catch on. Even when they do catch on, see how long it takes before they can rightfully do something about it). He's got the advantage whenever her feet leave the ground whatsoever and ike's fastfell down air is a straight up "**** you" to her up air attempts (it's a fast falling straight downward sex hit that can star KO someone, it's ridiculous how well it works against her), it's not a woefully disadvantaged fight on either end but zelda is not at the advantage in this matchup. Your best bet is to disorient the ike player and keep him crossed up somehow, bait retaliation and punish for it, the more aggressive the ike gets in this matchup and the more straight to the point he is about where he's throwing a move, the better it is for you but you still have to attempt to get in on him after he throws said moves and a smart ike will keep his moveset somewhere in the realm of nair, jab, fair, and ftilt to brickwall her and lower risk.

The biggest thing zelda has going for her in this matchup is that over 80 her down smash is pretty much a KO if done anywhere near the ledge outward, but the ike player should be attempting to play zone on this anyway and take the inside of the stage so he can DI downward and tech or DI up ward and hope his momentum died quickly enough to make it back.

 

[RoyalBlood]

D: First her recovery is not worse than yours )=
She doesn't need to approach but Ike can get to Zelda fast =/
Din's Fire in not a bad projectile against Ike
Above you just FW OUT of Ike's range to follow up with anything (it's possible <.<)
But when Zelda takes the lead she can do nasty stuff
And lightning kicks out of a shield are Yay! same with D-smash and Up-smash
I think Uair and Dair trade hits 0_0 except Ike is sent flying and Zelda gets slammed on the floor D:
Don't ever dash grab against people with more range than you <.<
Every Dash attack in the game gets sheild-grabbes <.< no point in mentioning
About my points earlier Sonic, i already said i test them on games so it's not "the match-up on paper"
All your other points Ryko are too good D: i cannot debate them so i guess i'll change it to 45:55 Ike =/
But now the summary will have to undergo some changes T_T
^_^ Thanks for the input

Edit : Also Zelda doesn't has the advantage here, i think it's clear enough ^_^
And all 45:55 are practically even and dependant on the players skill <.< it's as if i typed 50:50
So 45:55=50:50 =D

 

[Rykoshet]

She doesn't need to approach but Ike can get to Zelda fast =/

In this matchup someone has to do the approaching, I'd rather be the character who has good baits/approaches with the option to sit back and let things happen rather than the one who doesnt have the first option.

 

[RoyalBlood]

In this matchup someone has to do the approaching, I'd rather be the character who has good baits/approaches with the option to sit back and let things happen rather than the one who doesnt have the first option.

But no one in this match-up has that
Ike has the Good baits and approaches
And Zelda has the option to sit back and let things happen

And i just discovered that grabs decay *feels stupid now* <.<
And also i just discovered that you can change FW direction mid-teleport to avoid unwanted things *feels more stupid now* >.>

 

[Rykoshet]

But no one in this match-up has that
Ike has the Good baits and approaches

Ike's defensive abilties are pretty much godlike in this game, it's just that he's rarely ever in the position to use it, he does have both. In this matchup he doesn't have to approach if he doesn't want to, while this holds true for zelda too, it's still "strong approach game/incredible defensive game" vs "weak approach game/incredible defensive game".

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

It's true... if Ike doesn't WANT to approach you... good luck making him... you're not going to hit with din's while his feet are grounded unless he's asleep.

 

[RoyalBlood]

Ike's defensive abilties are pretty much godlike in this game, it's just that he's rarely ever in the position to use it, he does have both. In this matchup he doesn't have to approach if he doesn't want to, while this holds true for zelda too, it's still "strong approach game/incredible defensive game" vs "weak approach game/incredible defensive game".

So Ryko, in the end if neither of them decide to approach, what happens 0_0
Wait until the clock runs out?
Zelda approaches and gets punished?
Ike approaches and gets punished?
<.< Too confusing

Edit : And Sonic, there's somthing called pressure, Din's is gonna hit his shield and take apart of it away, he's gonna dodge and fulfill the purpose of making him move :D or he's gonna approach or Din's goes farther and screws his dodge =/

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

So Ryko, in the end if neither of them decide to approach, what happens 0_0
Wait until the clock runs out?
Zelda approaches and gets punished?
Ike approaches and gets punished?
<.< Too confusing

Ike defends against Zelda more effectively than zelda defends against Ike.... I think that should give you your answer

 

[RoyalBlood]

Ike defends against Zelda more effectively than zelda defends against Ike.... I think that should give you your answer

Care to explain please

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Care to explain please

I thought Ryko already did...

and Ike's nair is an AWFUL AWFUL problem for zelda in this matchup.

 

[RoyalBlood]

I thought Ryko already did...

and Ike's nair is an AWFUL AWFUL problem for zelda in this matchup.

I meant with which moves, strategies, explain it in depth Ryko hasn't said it, so guess you should know

And Nair is only problem at low percents =/

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I meant with which moves, strategies, explain it in depth Ryko hasn't said it, so guess you should know

And Nair is only problem at low percents =/

how is it only a problem at low percents? it's a completely safe move. Ike is safe from any of zelda's moves while he's using int and it autocancels upon landing so welda can't even try to punish him upon landing because he can just use one of his quicker atacks upon landing.

 

[Takumaru]

So Ryko, in the end if neither of them decide to approach, what happens 0_0
Wait until the clock runs out?
Zelda approaches and gets punished?
Ike approaches and gets punished?
<.< Too confusing

Edit : And Sonic, there's somthing called pressure, Din's is gonna hit his shield and take apart of it away, he's gonna dodge and fulfill the purpose of making him move :D or he's gonna approach or Din's goes farther and screws his dodge =/

Lol, din's is a horrible pressure tool. You can spot dodge it just as easily as you can shield it. All ike has to do in this match is gain a small lead then wall zelda with Fair. If he has to run the clock out to win he can. Ike has a much safer approach because his approaches outrange anything zelda can counter with. Really all zelda can try to do is try to get ike to missplace an attack and punish him for it. I.e. space a fair too close too zelda. I don't know how many times you want this explained to you. Ryko explained everything.

 

[RoyalBlood]

how is it only a problem at low percents? it's a completely safe move. Ike is safe from any of zelda's moves while he's using int and it autocancels upon landing so welda can't even try to punish him upon landing because he can just use one of his quicker atacks upon landing.

It's because a low percents Ike can combo with it =/ When your percent is past 40%, Zelda gets pushed a good distance that prevents Ike's follow-up

Lol, din's is a horrible pressure tool. You can spot dodge it just as easily as you can shield it. That's what i said -_- That's the pressure against IKE, you force him to do something All ike has to do in this match is gain a small lead then wall zelda with Fair. If he has to run the clock out to win he can. It depends on who has the lead, Zelda can do it too Ike has a much safer approach because his approaches outrange anything zelda can counter with. I already said that too, i even never mentioned zelda's approaches, she can approach but i never went into detail Really all zelda can try to do is try to get ike to missplace an attack and punish him for it. I.e. space a fair too close too zelda. And then Usmash out of your shield ^_^ I don't know how many times you want this explained to you. Ryko explained everything. This was directed to Sonic since he was saying that Ike punishes better, BOTH punish well but i wanted to know how Ike has the punishing advantage, Is it bad that i'm requesting him to explain =/

You're just reapeating what i said and i akready cahnged the match-up so don't see the reason to get heated-up, i'm just asking some questions

 

[Takumaru]

I'm not repeating what you said... I'm arguing against it. Din's fire is a miserable pressure tool against Ike. Unless the ike player has no idea how to get around it. Really it's easy for ike to gain control of Zelda by inching his way closer to her while she spams din's fire and all zelda has to do is mess up once.

Ike can stall much better than zelda because, like it's already been mentioned, he can wall her. Zelda can't do the same to Ike.

Ike punishes better because he can kill zelda much earlier than she can kill him. His b-air is crazy fast and strong. His jabs lead into grabs which lead into aerials; once zelda is in the air ike clearly has the advantage.

Now from Zelda's side she has the dtilt to mess up ike when he gets to close and d-smash to get some breathing space. Her approaches are limited to running usmash, a dash attack, dash grab, and walking towards ike. Din's fire isn't a good pressure tool against a patient opponent. Good pressure is anything that lets you poke someone's shield without being open, i.e. GW's Bair. Din's fire doesn't do enough to shields to be considered a pressure tool. You can try to force someone to be aggressive with it but the move leaves Zelda more vulnerabe than most zelda mains will admit.

If zelda get's ike the air with a grab or anything there's not much she can do because ike has much better coverage in the air. Zelda is vulnerable at every diagonal, ike isn't.

Granted I'm only presenting the con's here but that's how I see this match up. As a player of both characters I believe this is Ike's match. Not a counter for zelda but zelda has to work harder than ike.

 

[RoyalBlood]

Ok I'm sorry, I get your point
Also how does MK ends?

 

[Takumaru]

Sorry, I wasn't trying to be a jerk.

I say MK is 60:40 Because MK can make lots of mistakes and kill Zelda off the ledge pretty easily with shuttle loop. Maybe 55:45 because MK is light and easy to kill with zelda. I can give my opinion more in depth later but right now I have to go play with chemicals in a lab.

 

[RoyalBlood]

Sorry, I wasn't trying to be a jerk.

I say MK is 60:40 Because MK can make lots of mistakes and kill Zelda off the ledge pretty easily with shuttle loop. Maybe 55:45 because MK is light and easy to kill with zelda. I can give my opinion more in depth later but right now I have to go play with chemicals in a lab.

Don't worry, i'm too stubborn, i apologize again

The three seem reasonable with me but i'm more inclined to 55:45 mk OR 50:50 your opinion would be appreaciated ^_^ I love Chemistry (when the professor doesn't go psycho mode <.<)

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

now, granted... there is validity to the point that, if neither side is making mistakes, the fact that MK's mistakes are far far far less punishable doesn't really matter, there's only so far that can go becasue mistakes WILL be made. If Zelda is played absolutely perfectly, who knows, she might even have the advatage on MK.... but who will EVER play ANYONE perfectly?

The way the matchup seems to go, MK and Zelda both have advantages on each other... but MK just does a little better with them so it's not completely even.... that having been said, unless the zelda is an idiot, she has no MORE than a 60:40 disadvantage against him... so I petition for 55:45 MK.

 

[Takumaru]

I agree with the 55:45. Zelda has the defense to find holes in MK's blatant pointless spam of attacks to get in with a fast hit. She just has to be really fast to capitalize on them. MK can't wall zelda like ike because he doesn't have as much range. I don't remember if Usmash eats through any of MK's aerials. I'm going to say no for now since MK has such stupid priority. MK is light, which I think I already said so that's a pro for zelda. But he can also tear her up off stage and in the air where she's always vulnerable. I think stage selection has a lot to do with this match up. I hate battlefield and I love it at the same time. Some MKs can be really lame and campy here but Zelda's Uair becomes a threat once they hit 70% so they have to stay even with here. Yeah, 55:45 sounds right to me.

I'm sure I'm forgetting some important stuff... been a while since I played a MK. The only MK player I know was in my brother's crew back home and he used lucario mostly anyway. By the way, 7-up is all monosaccharides if anyone wants to know. Our iodine test (it tests for starches and disaccharides) didn't come out positive but our Benedict's reagent (tests for monosaccharides when heated) did; it tested postive really fast too. So it goes without saying 7-up is pure sugar... with some crack thrown in I'm sure.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I don't remember if Usmash eats through any of MK's aerials.

it does... you have to space it right... but it does... because Usmash has equally stupid priority

 

[RoyalBlood]

Yes U-smash eats any aerial and moves that come from above and from the sides in the game As Sonic said, you have to space it well
When MK glides he's either gonna get U-smashed or he'll receive Din's Fire although Glide attack outprioritazes Din's but then he leaves himself open
Her B-throw if fresh will start killing MK at like 120%
D: I want 50:50 <.< But it seems impossible so i guess it's 55:45 MK then ^_^

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Her B-throw if fresh will start killing MK at like 120%

Screw Bthrow... Lighting kicks and uair kill at 70%... and Utilt and Usmash fresh (Usmash won't be) will still kill in double digits.