Match-Up Chart (Outdated); please refer to the new chart.

Sveet said:

^ yeah but whoever runs this thread seems to not listen to knowledge or logic and instead likes to base the chart off 1 or 2 top level player's tournament results

Click to expand...

LOL.

I thought this chart was suppose to be used to help determine secondaries one should use and start meaningful conversations about matchups, but i guess people just want to justify losing to better players by blaming the character instead of working on the matchup.

BunBun said:

The only problem is that when we're talking about a specific group of very few players, individual player matchups and tendancies tend to hold a lot of influence over match outcomes.

Click to expand...

this.

Tamoo said:

Also jab is pretty amazing

Click to expand...

Yeah, I like jab for Marth in that matchup. The first hit of the side-b is pretty broken too.

BunBun said:

The only problem is that when we're talking about a specific group of very few players, individual player matchups and tendancies tend to hold a lot of influence over match outcomes.

Click to expand...

What is the Fox metagame if not the combined skills of the very best Fox players?

What is the Puff metagame if not the combined skills of the very best Puff players?

Individual player tendencies may slightly skew the results, but trying to "correct" for these tendencies by hypothetically playing through the matchups ourselves would skew the results even more. The results of top players are the only thing we can truly rely on.

I feel like we've had this discussion before.

john! said:

What is the Fox metagame if not the combined skills of the very best Fox players?

What is the Puff metagame is not the combined skills of the very best Puff players?

Individual player tendencies may slightly skew the results, but trying to "correct" for these tendencies by hypothetically playing through the matchups ourselves would skew the results even more. The results of top players are the only thing we can truly rely on.

I feel like we've had this discussion before.

Click to expand...

unless we're talking about ness and y.link or some **** who have barely any "top level representation"

so we kinda just have to guess at what top level play would be like for those characters

even when you're just theorycrafting tho, i would still trust a more experienced player about some random character over a less experienced player. for instance i trust kirbykaze's opinion on kirby more than i would pink reaper or some **** cuz kirbykaze *****. unlike canada which blows. cept raynex. <333333raynex

Lovage said:

unless we're talking about ness and y.link or some **** who have barely any "top level representation"

so we kinda just have to guess at what top level play would be like for those characters

even when you're just theorycrafting tho, i would still trust a more experienced player about some random character over a less experienced player. for instance i trust kirbykaze's opinion on kirby more than i would pink reaper or some **** cuz kirbykaze *****. unlike canada which blows. cept raynex. <333333raynex

Click to expand...

lol thats how i feel. i tend to trust m2k's opinion on most stuff cuz he *****, even tho he does change his mind alot >_>

iamthemicrowave said:

lol thats how i feel. i tend to trust m2k's opinion on most stuff cuz he *****, even tho he does change his mind alot >_>

Click to expand...

Lol m2k has the worst opinions ever. The last match he played in tournament decides his view of the metagame.

Mahone said:

LOL.

I thought this chart was suppose to be used to help determine secondaries one should use and start meaningful conversations about matchups, but i guess people just want to justify losing to better players by blaming the character instead of working on the matchup.

Click to expand...

Ehh I do what I can. It's hard to get thorough match-up knowledge out of the top players and it's even harder to find ones that aren't biased.

Lovage would marry RaynEX if he had lady bits.

Wow, actually discussion on tourney viable characters......I want no part in it.

IMO I think marth has the advantage vs jiggs on stage and jiggs has the adv offstage. Id probably say its fairly equal.

@Icy fix those m2 matchups, and ask taj and vman what they think of m2 vs G&W. I have conflicting opinions within myself.
m2>bowser, yoshi, kirby

About time people realize that Marth can't legitimately wall out Jiggs

<_<

I'll be adding my input on Bowser soon. Sorry I haven't done it yet. Marth has the advantage against Jiggs. N*ggas just gotta learn the matchup and play a unique way against Jiggs with Marth.

Don't attribute you reading people's minds and always landing every attack you ever throw out to Marth having an advantage in the matchup DJ <_<.

t3h Icy said:

Ehh I do what I can. It's hard to get thorough match-up knowledge out of the top players and it's even harder to find ones that aren't biased.

Click to expand...

I understand. I wasnt blaming you, i hope it didnt come off as a direct attack on u, i just think people dickride pros to much instead of thinking about the matchup enough.

I didn't really read anyone else's post about puff vs marth but i'll say this to blistering speed:

you assume that the marth is trying to be aggressive on the puff, which is not the case. Whichever player is more aggressive will lose. A defensive marth leaves puff almost 0 opportunity to break in due to her lack of speed and equal-at-best range. On the other hand, marth can actually approach puff somewhat. In general he can never do a forward momentum aerial or he will get bair'd out of it, but if he approaches by ground he can CC the bair into an fsmash or shield it and fair OoS. Puff's only real approach option is also via ground, and we all know how well her ground game is.

I've been over how puff's "edgeguard" on marth isn't any better than anyone else's. neither character can really edge guard the other, though with some decent reads puff can potentially get a kill from one while marth doesn't really have that chance. The only time she is actually guarenteed to get a kill is when she can force him to upb onto the stage, which isn't quite as often as you make it seem. In fact, any character basically gets a free kill if they can manage that yet marth statistically recovers more often than any other character.

Dark Sonic said:

Don't attribute you reading people's minds and always landing every attack you ever throw out to Marth having an advantage in the matchup DJ <_<.

Click to expand...

I obviously didn't say that so quit life for assuming. Marth has the advantage. Sveet already said things about it that are correct. N*ggas just throw out moves and get hit by mad random bairs and sh*t. Not playing careful. A Marth can be aggressive against Jiggs, but he definitely gotta know what he's doing and know the matchup.

I'd like to hear exactly how Marth has the advantage in the matchup.

Puff's bair only has slightly less range than Marth's jab and fair, and Puff also has ridiculous aerial mobility. This means that in order to intercept puff to "wall her out" like so many people describe, he has to be able to PREDICT when Puff is actually approaching rather than when she's just drifting in and out (very similar to hitting a Captain Falcon who's dash dancing <_<)

You can't crouch cancel Jigglypuff's bair past 30% (well, if you're already crouching before the bair hits you can, but I'm talking about using CC to cover a missed or blocked attack). So no CC f-smash for you. Fair OoS also is not fast enough to punish a retreating bair from Jiggs, nice try.

Puff's edgeguarding on Marth is not very consistent, but it's very, very effective when it works out. Puff goes out and tries to bait a fair or side B (or tries to hit you before you intercept with said moves).

1. If Marth gets hit then he's pushed too far out to recover with just his double jump and he'll die.

or

2. If Marth fast falls to avoid the bair then he'll have to up B to reach the stage and can only hope that he's able to hit Jigglypuff before she grabs the ledge (he'll die otherwise).

or

3.If Marth jumps to avoid the bair then we repeat the scenario slightly higher, but now Marth doesn't have a jump.

or

4. If Marth hits Jigglypuff with a fair or side B then he gets to recover.

And of course, there's still the difficulty of actually getting back into a neutral position once you've grabbed the ledge (which is still a bad place for Marth to be).

Jigg's only risk when doing this is that she might take one fair <_<. Jigg's edgeguarding is good.


Moving on, there's the problem of killing Jigglypuff. Marth's walling is not so good that he can keep Jiggs out indefinitely. They'll most likely be trading hits back and forth throughout the match. This is actually a problem for Marth in the matchup, just by the nature of how they kill each other. Jigg's hits will send Marth closer and closer to the ledge (making it harder to space), and eventually offstage. Marth's hits however (those jabs people keep saying are supposed to keep Jigg's out) will just reset the position back to neutral. Tipped fairs give a decent positional advantage, but getting back down with Jiggs is a lot easier than getting onto the stage with Marth (she can just retreat to the ledge and then play her game normally from there).

Trying to wall Jigglypuff out until she's at a high enough percent to kill with fairs or nairs will just lose you the match against someone of equal skill (it will take you significantly more hits to kill them than it will take them to kill you), so Marth HAS to take some risks right? Marth's saving grace in the matchup is that he can throw out that f-smash to occasionally kill Jiggs at 80% (lower if they don't DI well). But we all know just how safe f-smash is right? <_< At least we only take a bair (but this adds up, and Jigg's bair will eventually start knocking you offstage).


btw, side B->uptilt can be crouch canceled until well over 150%. You can also airdodge or jump out before the uptilt.



So yeah, I'm not seeing exactly how Marth has the advantage here. He has no kill combos on Jiggs (DI down solves both throws at anything past 30%, and DI down and away according to the throw prevents any followups even from 0%), he has no safe kill moves to throw out, and he has no way to FORCE Jigglypuff to approach. He has a few low percent combos to rack damage, and a few edgeguarding options to rack damage, and a couple high reward medium risk moves to throw out, but I really don't think that's enough to give him an ADVANTAGE in the matchup.

As far as edgeguarding goes, I feel like Jiggs can hang on the edge to force Marth to go low or else he'll eat a ledge invincibility-backed bair, and then do an up and away edgestall to force Marth to up-b onto the stage and rest him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9ET0CdOAcU#t=1m53s

(just as an example of this edgeguard, not how the rest of the match was played)

Ur going to CC a bair for one fsmash? so I'm assuming this is with jiggs at very high % and marth at very low % exclusively or else thats a horrible trade. Thats not a reliable approach, or evidence of a matchup advantage. And running up and shielding? You don't want to get cute like that with jiggs...if she catches on she's gonna skip the bair and just land behind you and start pressuring your shield into a potential rest. You guys are talking about gimmicks to help you outplay your opponent...not matchup breaking strategies.

Jigglypuff sucks...

I love how Magus just provides us with raw data and remains neutral in the discussion.

I guess I'm gonna have to get recorded against good Jiggs players and use Marth lol. I'm gonna keep saying it. Marth has the advantage. F-smash tippers all day lol!

Magus420 said:

F-throw to pivot f-smash is a combo if you do it right on down DI all the way until like 100% when WD f-smash will also work.

Click to expand...

Magus, I normally trust your word on things like this, but I really do have a hard time believing this. I've had this work if the f-throw was able to get them off stage, but on stage they land on the ground before you can even reach them with a dash attack, much less a pivot f-smash (which I've also tried numerous times and have only succeeded on no DI or away DI, not down DI or down and away).

So for this one instance, I'm going to require a gif or a video or something.

Magus420 said:

Also, side-b to u-tilt does combo, starting as early as 80% if you hit them near or on the ground. While it isn't a true combo if you hit them a little higher off the ground, with proper timing they shouldn't be able use a dodge or jump to get out of range in time.

Click to expand...

Well, they can pretty much always dodge to get out of range if you got them above the ground, since that's just a hitstun issue. Jumping to get out can happen if they were hit while at a little above Jigg's shorthop range (though I suppose being frame perfect on the combo would make it inescapable at more heights)

Hitting them on the ground still has the issue of crouch canceling (and since ducking whenever they land is what Jigglypuff players really like doing <_<).

DJ Nintendo said:

I guess I'm gonna have to get recorded against good Jiggs players and use Marth lol. I'm gonna keep saying it. Marth has the advantage. F-smash tippers all day lol!

Click to expand...

Sounds to me like your spacing is flat out better than your opponent's.

DJ Nintendo said:

I guess I'm gonna have to get recorded against good Jiggs players and use Marth lol. I'm gonna keep saying it. Marth has the advantage. F-smash tippers all day lol!

Click to expand...

Yea I'm gonna have to see this.

Magus420 said:

_______ Pivot: 30 ______________ Pivot: 50 _____________. Pivot: 75


______. Pivot: 100 _____________. WD: 90



It sounds like you're waiting too long after f-throwing or something.

Click to expand...

Such copious amounts of **** I dont even know what to do with myself.

magus is my hero

I don't quite understand the pivot idea. Where is the pivot at? I guess you are pivoting backwards then fsmashing the other direction?

Yes, he pivots and fsmashes the direction he was initially running.

edit: ninja'd

edit: lol triple told

so we have established marth has exactly 2 combos on jiggs.

marth >>>>>>> jiggs.

Puff has how many combos on Marth? People keep talking about her getting huge **** combos on Marth... but then again Marth players john about Sheik's combos too... and I usually only get down throw to aerial/tilt on a good Marth who knows how to DI at any but the lowest percents... then they grab me and upthrow me and get like 2-3 free hits at least.

john! said:

Puff has how many combos on Marth? People keep talking about her getting huge **** combos on Marth... but then again Marth players john about Sheik's combos too... and I usually only get down throw to aerial/tilt on a good Marth who knows how to DI at any but the lowest percents... then they grab me and upthrow me and get like 2-3 free hits.

Click to expand...

Is this a joke? Marth up throw is never a guaranteed combo on sheik and sheik dthrow platform tech chases are like half to 3/4 stock...

It's funny you say on good marths you can only get one dthrow to aerial/tilt. Thats pretty similar to the extent of the combos I eat against bad sheiks.

Marth players just suck.

sheik being above marth is gay. nothing is garunteed to combo, but you have to be pretty bad not to follow uthrow with anything at all as marth. Sheik sucks in the air.

but yea, sheik combos vs him are just as stupid and everyone knows it

Niko45 said:

It's funny you say on good marths you can only get one dthrow to aerial/tilt. Thats pretty similar to the extent of the combos I eat against bad sheiks.

Click to expand...

Well then please share with us all of Sheik's guaranteed combos on Marth that aren't at low percents. Unless by that statement you meant that you're simply poor at escaping pseudo-combos, in which case you probably shouldn't be in this discussion.

john! said:

Puff has how many combos on Marth? People keep talking about her getting huge **** combos on Marth... but then again Marth players john about Sheik's combos too... and I usually only get down throw to aerial/tilt on a good Marth who knows how to DI at any but the lowest percents... then they grab me and upthrow me and get like 2-3 free hits at least.

Click to expand...

Surely you're not insinuating that Marth's combos are gayer than Sheik's.

Dark Sonic said:

About time people realize that Marth can't legitimately wall out Jiggs

<_<

Click to expand...

This is false. Very False. Jigs has absolutely NO answer to a retreating fair. Marths aerial range overall and ground mobility stop her form moving inside of Marth.

DJ Nintendo said:

Marth has the advantage against Jiggs. N*ggas just gotta learn the matchup and play a unique way against Jiggs with Marth.

Click to expand...

*High Five* You get a lead on her and camp it out. You literally never approach jigs. If Marth is down a stock its pretty much game over because its hard for Marth to approach her...or anyone.

Sveet said:

Whichever player is more aggressive will lose. A defensive marth leaves puff almost 0 opportunity to break in due to her lack of speed and equal-at-best range. On the other hand, marth can actually approach puff somewhat. In general he can never do a forward momentum aerial or he will get bair'd out of it, but if he approaches by ground he can CC the bair into an fsmash or shield it and fair OoS.
neither character can really edge guard the other, though with some

Click to expand...

True. Whoever camps wins. Marths approaches against Jigs are there, but they are predictable and a good Jigs knows how to get around this.

DJ Nintendo said:

A Marth can be aggressive against Jiggs, but he definitely gotta know what he's doing and know the matchup.

Click to expand...

What characters in this game are aggressive VS Jigglypuff? Spacies run around and camp lasers all day, Marth swings his sword, Sheik Vs Jigs is stupid for jigs advantage, Ganon goes off stage and he dies, Ice climbers LOL.

the only character that is feasible IMO is Falcon due to his speed and free knee BS after 70% or whatever.









People need to understand that just because some Marths are not familiar with a match up at this point in the meta game does not point all directions to Jigs winning the match up. M2K (USAS BEST Marth) loses to a peach (Armada) and Jigglypuff (Hbox and MaNg0) on a consistent basis now. Marth loses those match ups? No.

At BEST it is EVEN for Jigs. Jigglypuff does not BEAT Marth and I will stand by saying that anyone who thinks that does not understand how Marth is played and how quickly they BOTH can kill one another. Marth can literally wall jigglypuff with uairs on FD all day if she is above him as long as they are tippered. What can she do? Dair? Fast Fall? Air Dodge? Nothing. Go to the side and then get faired? She ***** Marth on Dreamland and Brinstar, that is a fact. Marth has no chance there. He beats her on FD, Pokey, YS, and BF and she beats him Rainbow, Brinstar, Dreamland. There might be a good argument for even on BF though. It boils down to who wins game one IMO. Because Jigs only wins on the dumb CP random stages and marth dominates more on the neutrals.

If she is rising from below the stage tippered d tilt frustrates her, if that stops working running off and fairing/bairing against the stage does nice, bair kills nicely, f tilt comes out fast and is nice on the ground, d tilt kills her ground game, (Wding in and out of those is nice) single side b at high percentages to aerials/utilt is amazing, f throw to aerials or f smash is great, d throw to fsmash or aerials is awesome. There is so much Marth can do to get the kill. The idea of the match up is to play defensively smart, not grab ALL the time but mix it in once or twice a stock somewhere, and mix it up when recovering. People just suck at the match up, don't know how to DI away from rests, grab too much, and play stupid.

Honestly, Jigs is one of my favorite match ups and I know how to play the match up. I do fairly decent against top Jigs players (Hbox and Darc) and think people should know what the hell they are saying or have legitimate knowledge before they post on a character.

I main(ed) Marth (I'm moving onto SF now) and only comment on him because I don't know much about match ups outside of Marth and Falco but I know how match ups are played with Marth to an extremely high degree. I'm not incredibly knowledged about Falco so i dont post my thoughts.

KAOSTAR said:

Marth players just suck.

Click to expand...

Yeah, pretty much even though I hate to admit it. There are so many Marths out there who I see play and get too stupidly creative while edge guarding and think that they are M2K and then lose a stock......their mentality....and then lose the match! yay! Marth can't run around like the good ol days and just do random edge guards to win. Marth is also incredibly good at reacting to what people do on the ledge once they are on the stage with his amazing grab game, retreating fair to setups, d tilt, and fsmash. His pivots are some of the best in the game as well with his fsmash and grab.

Marth is all about one thing:

Getting people off the stage and reacting to what they do on a consistent basis. It has nothing to do with Chain grabs, fair to dair ken combo BS or anything of the sort. It's getting them off stage and ******. Thats it. Thats why i strongly still think hes third best because if you can consistently do this...marth is god tier. He basically ***** everyones recovery aside from Jigglypuff. Falcon and Ganon are a joke, lol ICS, LOL DK Bowser, spacies, etc. The only reason why the spacies are even w Marth is because their on stage game is 10X better than Marths but Marths off stage game makes the match up even because they have to wait for marth to be on stage to do something (their on stage game...they have no off stage game minus Fox and his shine) while marth is a nightmare and is truly feared when Edgeguarding.


I'm done. lol.

John! Sheik has homo combos on marth. stupid ****. regrabs, downthrows, ftilts, gay tilts, uairs, dairs fairs. You can just make **** up really.

But whats really important is everything sets up into kill moves.