Match-Up Chart (Outdated); please refer to the new chart.

[The Irish Mafia]

Luigi is right where he should be. he can chaingrab spacies and has good movement game, but it can't keep up with the top tiers. he loses mobility vs falco and can't keep up with fox and his lazers. He loses the ability to do most of the things people think he's good at doing if a player pays attention to the luigi matchup.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Icy have you considered splitting the characters into tiers and weighing by group instead of ranking?

 

[sauc3]

shiek vs fox 60-40, heres proof (kirbykaze vs unknown522 atm)

http://www.justin.tv/magicsauc3

 

[t3h Icy]

Icy have you considered splitting the characters into tiers and weighing by group instead of ranking?

What for?

 

[Winston]

KaMaster is really good at following pretty much everything on FD. The benefit of having a WD that covers that entire stage makes reacting to stuff easier.

Anyone who plays Luigi decently will immediately learn to hold down on the c-stick and dsmash. Old school nair chains aren't a major point in this MU, but if you do manage to hit him while he's airborne he is reeeally screwed. I think this can be turned around to say that the loss of nairs efficiency and application really hurts Fox. Coupled with the fact that drillshine pushes Luigi WAY too far...already two of his best aerials are looking pretty bad.

But I agree with the rest. Safe bairs and edge-guarding against Luigi completely and utterly dismantle him. While the dair > shine may not be good for combos, its great for pushing him off the stage and into a position where you can take advantage of him. I'd say 6 /4 Fox. FD makes it a hell of a lot easier though.

I haven't seen any recent vids of Ka-master on FD so you'll have to excuse me for that. >.> There's like only two recent vids of Ka-master vs fox period,, so I'm just going off my personal mediocre experience + watching Vist + vids of Eddy mexico. Luigi's combos are quite good on FD if executed really well, but I think on non-FD stages it definitely requires some reads to get big combos on fox.

If Ka-master somehow follows up on everything in a way other than chaingrabbing, I'd like to hear some examples of situations because it'd be useful knowledge... as far as I know Luigi can't cover all the tech options on reaction like Sheik can, and I've never seen a combination of Luigi moves that when DI'd properly don't allow the spacies to tech.

CC downsmash is one of his saving graces, but I feel like almost any character can CC fox's nair and punish, and it doesn't make it a bad move, just not one you can spam when it's CCable.

6-4 sounds probably about right to me though.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

What for?

Well if you weigh by group then instead of saying "its most important to have a good match-up on fox" you're saying "its most important to have good match-ups against the best tier".

Personally I don't think having a strong match-up any individual character in the top 3 is more important than the other, just like i don't think having a strong match-up in the bottom 5 is more important the the other. The only problem is really an objective way to divide the tiers when weighing.

 

[Mahone]

if jiggs doesn't have to work nearly as hard to win, then that means the matchup isn't even, bro.

thats why work is in quotes bro.

 

[t3h Icy]

Well if you weigh by group then instead of saying "its most important to have a good match-up on fox" you're saying "its most important to have good match-ups against the best tier".

Personally I don't think having a strong match-up any individual character in the top 3 is more important than the other, just like i don't think having a strong match-up in the bottom 5 is more important the the other. The only problem is really an objective way to divide the tiers when weighing.

Remember that the chart's "ranking" of characters would be true if all 26 characters were played an equal amount, so yes, in its current state, it isn't able to translate into a Tier List. I think dividing by pseudo-tiers would just be messy though.

 

[P. O. F.]

he loses mobility vs falco and can't keep up with fox and his lazers. He loses the ability to do most of the things people think he's good at doing if a player pays attention to the luigi matchup.

The lasers are not what is bad for Luigi VS Fox at all....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2vG-YUSyog

Fox's shine ****s him up allll day due to his traction. It's like fighting one ice climber. lol. I don't think Falco ***** Luigi as hard as people think. Falco has a tough time comboing him...

Yeah, the lasers do **** him though but i'd take lasers in my face all day if i knew Falcos combo game went done a few notches. Luigis nair is dumb. lol. 3% a laser VS a 50% to full stock combo? sounds good to me.

Like I said, i'm not entirely familiar with Luigi. Would love to hear from Pakman/Ka Master on this one.




Someone asked for my explanation on how to zone jigs out with Marth? I'll do it tomorrow when im not tired and its not 2:31 AM. Bed.

 

[Winston]

P.O.F., none of what you said makes any sense...

Luigi having low traction is a good thing vs. shine, because it means Fox can't shine -> guaranteed combo him.

Falco's combos on Luigi are fine. Just don't put yourself in situations where you'll get hit by nair. Laser control is also a big deal because Luigi can't threaten to jump over them as easily as other characters. I've never heard any Luigi main say that Falco is easier than Fox for Luigi.

I haven't seen Ka post about it, but for what it's worth Pakman thinks Falco is way harder than Fox.

 

[KAOSTAR]

Well if you weigh by group then instead of saying "its most important to have a good match-up on fox" you're saying "its most important to have good match-ups against the best tier".

Personally I don't think having a strong match-up any individual character in the top 3 is more important than the other, just like i don't think having a strong match-up in the bottom 5 is more important the the other. The only problem is really an objective way to divide the tiers when weighing.

I think its more important rated by the frequency of said character.

If fox is the best, but there are only 20 foxes but 100 manly falcons. Its more important to be better against falcons. Its not actually by tiers. But you can probably make a correlation between place on tier list and frequency the character is played.

Its hard to say, I really couldnt tell you how often certain characters get used.

 

[Blistering Speed]

Blistering speed? have you ever had an arguement or discussion before?

saying "Shut up your wrong" is not really the way to go

I said they were wrong and provided reasons, that's exactly how you argue a point.

 

[Winston]

Its hard to say, I really couldnt tell you how often certain characters get used.

Sveet's "character rankings" project seems like a reasonable way to do that, though I dunno if he still does that.

Or you could use an iterative model, superdoodleman did that once...

I'm sure there's some way to solve it correctly mathematically but I don't know how.

 

[BigWenz]

maybe i misread something but a waaay back i saw that doc's up+b < mario's how is this possible when doc's grab range on the up+ b is >marios

 

[Rappster]

maybe i misread something but a waaay back i saw that doc's up+b < mario's how is this possible when doc's grab range on the up+ b is >marios

iirc, mario's has mor horizontal range. and mario can wall jump after his upb

 

[Pakman]

Luigi has no horizontal aerial movement. The way he moves around is grounded via wavedashing. SHL completely screws up Luigi's movement game, makes grabs harder and just all around makes falco almost untouchable.

 

[Winston]

Any thoughts on the rest of Luigi's top/high tier matchups while you're here, Pakman?

 

[BigWenz]

iirc, mario's has mor horizontal range. and mario can wall jump after his upb

by horizontal range are only referring to the the up+ b's movement alone or up+b's movement and the grab range afterwards cause if you combine the two doc's > mario's cause that sweetspot be puttin brawl grabs to shame lol

 

[ChivalRuse]

I was under the impression that Mario's cape and the range of his fireballs were the main reasons why his recovery is marginally better than Doc's.

 

[KAOSTAR]

Sveet's "character rankings" project seems like a reasonable way to do that, though I dunno if he still does that.

Or you could use an iterative model, superdoodleman did that once...

I'm sure there's some way to solve it correctly mathematically but I don't know how.

By counting LMAO. Pen and paper could solve it, then update a thread or something.

Thats the simplest way, and its not worth doing in that manner imo.

I think somebody should try to add some things into Tio, but im not a programmer so I have no idea how easy/difficult that would be

 

[FoxLisk]

there is probably a reasonable way to weight the characters based on all the matchups here. so the characters with fewer winning matchups are worth fewer points. i could read up on this and try to find a way to do it or come up with something on my own if there's enough interest. modeling it would be easy programming wise, it's just figuring out the formulas.

 

[KAOSTAR]

You would weight the MUs based on the tier list like Sveet already said.

But thats not whats actually important, The two more important things are frequency the character is used, or Avg tourney placings weighted in this order-glob-nat-reg-loc.

It shows how well ppl are doing against the characters who are winning tournaments, or by how likely you are to play against a certain character.

 

[brg]

falcon even with samus


lmao!


and before everyone start sucking hugs ****, maybe he ****ing goes even with falcon but I can assure the rest of the samuses in the world tear their hairs out fighting falcons

anyone who uses the logic "Top play X says Y so it must be true!" is an idiot

If Kage started telling everyone ganon vs spacies is even half the boards would buy it

 

[ChivalRuse]

IHSB beat Darkrain. >_>

 

[DJ Nintendo]

I don't like fighting Falcon in general but I don't have a problem with the matchup while I'm using any character, even Samus.

But yeah, that matchup is definitely not even. Its in Falcon's favor.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

DJ Nintendo: i adore your bowser and i wish you used it more. its so ****ing pro.

 

[Winston]

By counting LMAO. Pen and paper could solve it, then update a thread or something.

Thats the simplest way, and its not worth doing in that manner imo.

I think somebody should try to add some things into Tio, but im not a programmer so I have no idea how easy/difficult that would be

That's not what I mean -________-

Like I said, if you want to do it by observing how frequently characters are used in tournies, there's already a means to do that, and that's Sveet's character rankings list.

What I'm talking about is a way to form the tier list without having to use real world data. It's inspired by what superdoodleman did ages ago - you weight how important each character is by the matchups in the chart itself.

SDM's method was iterative; he started with all the characters equally weighted, then used those results to assign weights to the next iteration, etc.

I was thinking there should be more "pure" way to do it, as doing it iteratively requires you to make some arbitrary judgements, such as how much to adjust the weights by, etc. Also cycles tend to occur if there's some sort of Rock-Paper-Scissors among the top tiers, which I don't really know how to deal with.

there is probably a reasonable way to weight the characters based on all the matchups here. so the characters with fewer winning matchups are worth fewer points. i could read up on this and try to find a way to do it or come up with something on my own if there's enough interest. modeling it would be easy programming wise, it's just figuring out the formulas.

I'm not sure anyone else cares but if you figure something out I'd be very interested in hearing about it.

 

[Winston]

sorry double post

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

You would weight the MUs based on the tier list like Sveet already said.

But thats not whats actually important, The two more important things are frequency the character is used, or Avg tourney placings weighted in this order-glob-nat-reg-loc.

It shows how well ppl are doing against the characters who are winning tournaments, or by how likely you are to play against a certain character.

avg use and placing is already calculated in my thread.

macman isn't returning my IMs. I dont know if he is working on CRL. I'm gonna start throwing some time into an update i think.

edit- @gustav, this list is already iterative iirc.

 

[FoxLisk]

SDM's method was iterative; he started with all the characters equally weighted, then used those results to assign weights to the next iteration, etc.

I was thinking there should be more "pure" way to do it, as doing it iteratively requires you to make some arbitrary judgements, such as how much to adjust the weights by, etc. Also cycles tend to occur if there's some sort of Rock-Paper-Scissors among the top tiers, which I don't really know how to deal with.

I'm not sure anyone else cares but if you figure something out I'd be very interested in hearing about it.

something iterative sounds best/easiest to me. Does anyone know what his exact method was? It'd be pretty easy for me to write a template that I could run that method on and then adjust very easily given new changes to the matchup chart.

 

[P. O. F.]

there is probably a reasonable way to weight the characters based on all the matchups here. so the characters with fewer winning matchups are worth fewer points. i could read up on this and try to find a way to do it or come up with something on my own if there's enough interest. modeling it would be easy programming wise, it's just figuring out the formulas.

I have come to the general consensus that tier lists in Melee are dumb. No one ever agrees on the top 5 characters and never will. I think it makes discussion interesting/fun but the truth is, most smashers get angry or take tier lists too seriously.

Honestly, I got to say that thinking Falco is the best character in the game is pretty funny though. Hes second best though, without question. Everything else after that IMO is really up for debate. If someone walked up and told me "I think Sheik is third" I could see an argument for that. Or "I think Jigs is third" yeah, i could see one for that too.

Falco ***** Peach, Ice Climbers, Jigglypuff, Marth, and Sheik much better than Fox does? No, definitely not.

Fox is good on every single stage, beats or is even with every single character, is the reason why half of the stages are banned, kills floaty characters as low as 5% with one move, has the same approach to nearly every match up minus the mario bros, and leaves more room for error as opposed to Falco. (shrug)

 

[KAOSTAR]

I definitely feel that a weighted MU chart should be conducted seperately, or at least final products should be shown weighted and unweighted.

 

[t3h Icy]

Updated (via PMs by Taj, KAOSTAR and other Mewtwo discussion)
Luigi > Mewtwo
Mewtwo > Kirby
Mewtwo = Yoshi
Mr.G&W > Mewtwo
Samus > Mewtwo

Discussing:
Jigglypuff > Luigi
Link > Kirby
Link = Pikachu
Peach >> Yoshi
Pikachu > Ness
Pikachu > Roy
Pikachu > Zelda
Samus > Mr.G&W
Samus >> Yoshi
Yoshi > Pichu
Zelda = Mr.G&W

Falcon >> Kirby
Falcon > Samus
DK > Ness
Kirby > Ness
Marth > Luigi
Mewtwo > Zelda
Mr.G&W >> Kirby
Pikachu > Kirby
Pikachu = Young Link
Young Link >> Kirby
Young Link > Roy
Zelda >> Kirby

Regarding weights, what I could do a second weight, and repeat until results become constant. I think by re-weighting even once, Sheik might drop from the 2nd spot.

I'll test that in a bit. In the meantime, argue some more and stuff. =D

EDIT: Tried it out and it's approximately the same.

 

[KAOSTAR]

What is that third group at the bottom with no label? or if its what we are discussing, what is the difference between section 2 and section 3.

and who said m2=yoshi?

 

[Pink Reaper]

I'd be willing to argue Zelda > Kirby, i just want someone to debate my points with me.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I don't see how Zelda could >> Kirby unless she uses Down+B.

 

[Winston]

edit- @gustav, this list is already iterative iirc.

What do you mean? t3h icy's list is just done by simply adding up all the values, I'm pretty sure.

something iterative sounds best/easiest to me. Does anyone know what his exact method was? It'd be pretty easy for me to write a template that I could run that method on and then adjust very easily given new changes to the matchup chart.

Here's his original thread:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=175486

His approach was a little different than I remembered I guess, and fairly simple. He doesn't give the exact details though.
If you'd like to hear about an idea I've worked on but not completed I'll post about it.

I definitely feel that a weighted MU chart should be conducted seperately, or at least final products should be shown weighted and unweighted.

Well, the matchup chart stands by itself, unweighted. Along with that we'd like to calculate a tier list based on the matchup chart, either completely, or with the help of the character rankings list.

A list generated by adding up all the + and - unweighted is pretty useless information, as a ton of it is how good the character is at bashing lower tiers (cough sheik cough), when those MUs would almost never happen in reality.

Really I think if there is an up to date character rankings list you should just use that, but if there isn't, we'll work a model out, heh.

 

[Pakman]

I play a decent yoshi and I don't think samus is that bad. I am far from the most knowledgeable yoshi player but I haven't been completely demolished against tristate samus' in money matches. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ap0PN6zpieQ

I think that warrants a > not a >>.

 

[Mind Trick]

and who said m2=yoshi?

I did but more importantly Vman did, who has experience against arguably the best mew2 in the world. Which competent yoshi's have you played?

 

[KAOSTAR]

I did but more importantly Vman did, who has experience against arguably the best mew2 in the world. Which competent yoshi's have you played?

Taj probably thinks its in m2s favor, I think it would be best to ask him.

Vman, although he did "COMPLETELY agree" it was 50/50, his original post stated that it was in m2s favor, and his most recent post stated the same thing.

I have played a couple of decent yoshi's, by no means were they amazing, and by no means would I know who they were. My experiences give me the impression that m2>yoshi. As far as **** yoshi players, lol, idk who they are. You, vman ....?

LOL, haw Kaostar, I still agree with what I said.. I do still think it's in Mewtwo's favor, I always will.. ^^ Just showing some "Favoritism towards Yoshi" I can't believe it's taken me 3 years to play this dino...And there is no Mewtwo or Yoshi, Im playing BOTH of them at a competetive level, just you wait and see man ^^

Yoshi is ****ing ILL! <3

This is why I was asking about who said m2=yoshi. Vman seems to be the expert in this situation playing both m2 and yoshi and having taj to play against.

@teh Icy- you ever gonna change it to M2>zelda lol.