Sakurai does not want Smash to be a competitive franchise

LouisLeGros · Mar 28, 2008

lol, I know this has been said before but you people who seem to be so adamantly opposed to competitive play for whatever reason just don't get it (and you call us thick headed LOL).

Being casual friendly and supportive of the competitive scene are not mutually exclusive!

You want an example? Look at Melee, by far the best selling Gamecube game. It is enjoyed by both crowds independent of each other.

Don't bring up the **** about how casuals and "scrubs" are the main focus of the game. Yes they are the large majority of the game owners. However, having competitive depth in a game doesn't mean the game can't be eaten up by these millions of casuals. I could list tons of examples of games with tons of competitive depth, but still have millions of casual users.

Don't just go and call the competitive players thick headed because they wanted the game to be able to cater to their method of play. We don't want the game to be unapproachable or unfun for new comers and casual players. We wanted the very possible and very achievable situation where we would have a game that caters to both crowds. The most loyal fans and the most casual of players who may only play it because of some trend.

If you can't see how the two can coincide then you are truly the ignorant one.

sHy)(gUy · Mar 28, 2008

ChromePirate said:
I'm sorry but I refuse to read hippy ****, go BS about some other crap but please not smash

lol, hippy ****? im sorry for sounding like a hippie, all im saying is i agree with sakuri.... and since were labeling people on the internet by one post im gonna go head and give u the title of gay pirate. and we dont want any of ur gay pirateness filling up the boards so go back to the seas....

Pink Reaper · Mar 28, 2008

Razorsaw said:
It's time to trot out the same reasoning I've made since I first got here, I guess.

1. That they are a minority in a larger fandom.
2. "Scrubs" and "casuals" are more representative of the larger fanbase.
3. Competitive Players are not the reason why the franchise has endured, because if they were, it would make no economic or feasible sense involving the actual numbers.

Seriously folks. Do you HONESTLY think that among the over a million players who bought Brawl, the competitive fanbase is the one that bought most of it? Or that competitive players are the only one who'd bother to CONTINUE doing so?

It seems to me, that in making a game based on his design philosophies that sells incredibly well, that Sakurai might, GASP, actually be on to something!

In other words?

Whether or not you guys want Smash to be competitive ISN'T AN ISSUE to both SAKURAI, NINTENDO, and CONSUMERS, and once you realize that you're not the target audience and NEVER WILL BE, you'll be able to move on and find some way of coming to terms with this situation.

My GOD people, it's just a video game. There's a reason why people make fun of fandom, and it's not just because of greasy nerds in their mothers' basement. It's this inflated sense of entitlement and imbalanced sense of purpose.

You're calling a guy whose been making video games for over a decade and who created one of Nintendo's most popular characters a scrub. Get a REAL sense of priorities.

((For the record, this isn't an attack on the person I replied to, more so that his post prompted mine. I actually like what he had to say.))

No one expects the game to be made for them, but its not too much to assume that Sakurai wouldn't purposefully screw over any part of his games fan base. And while the casual fan base may be larger, the competitive fan base is the one that actually continues playing the game after a few months. Seriously, its not like we expected Sakurai to make the game unplayable by anyone without a ridiculous amount of tech skill but why make a game that will only satisfy part of your consumer base?

Anth0ny · Mar 28, 2008

Radical Dreamer said:
Hey Gimpy, please never post stuff like this on SRK ever again since the community there is even more ******** than this one.

I was about to say this. They just hate Smash Bros over there.

Anyways, I agree completely with Gimpy. It's too bad that nothing we say could ever get to Nintendo or effect the choices they make.

I wish we had a kick *** developer like the guy doing Street Fighter II HD Remix (David Sirlin I believe). Fans are complaining about freaking muscle shapes and they're taking it into consideration and fixing it...unbelievable.

Dhgriff9 · Mar 28, 2008

Question, the game is catered to casual players, so how many casual players asked for a tripping mechanic to be added and l-canceling to be removed, after it was apparently already in the game? Same for anything else that was discovered at e4all that was taken out later. And how many casual players are now happy that tripping is in, because truthfully I've seen plenty of people everywhere complain about it not just competitive players here.

PXG · Mar 28, 2008

Razorsaw said:
It's time to trot out the same reasoning I've made since I first got here, I guess.

1. That they are a minority in a larger fandom.
2. "Scrubs" and "casuals" are more representative of the larger fanbase.
3. Competitive Players are not the reason why the franchise has endured, because if they were, it would make no economic or feasible sense involving the actual numbers.

Seriously folks. Do you HONESTLY think that among the over a million players who bought Brawl, the competitive fanbase is the one that bought most of it? Or that competitive players are the only one who'd bother to CONTINUE doing so?

It seems to me, that in making a game based on his design philosophies that sells incredibly well, that Sakurai might, GASP, actually be on to something!

In other words?

Whether or not you guys want Smash to be competitive ISN'T AN ISSUE to both SAKURAI, NINTENDO, and CONSUMERS, and once you realize that you're not the target audience and NEVER WILL BE, you'll be able to move on and find some way of coming to terms with this situation.

My GOD people, it's just a video game. There's a reason why people make fun of fandom, and it's not just because of greasy nerds in their mothers' basement. It's this inflated sense of entitlement and imbalanced sense of purpose.

You're calling a guy whose been making video games for over a decade and who created one of Nintendo's most popular characters a scrub. Get a REAL sense of priorities.

((For the record, this isn't an attack on the person I replied to, more so that his post prompted mine. I actually like what he had to say.))

Listen to this man please.

Razorsaw · Mar 28, 2008

No one expects the game to be made for them, but its not too much to assume that Sakurai wouldn't purposefully screw over any part of his games fan base.

I would expect him to make the kind of game he was interested in making.

And while the casual fan base may be larger, the competitive fan base is the one that actually continues playing the game after a few months.

Unlikely and most likely untrue. Melee sold well for a good spread of time, and if the series maintained any kind of fanbase that supported it over a six year gap, it would have been casual fans at the heart of it.

Seriously, its not like we expected Sakurai to make the game unplayable by anyone without a ridiculous amount of tech skill but why make a game that will only satisfy part of your consumer base?

1. The man isn't interesting in making that kind of game, and 2. It doesn't really affect much if he doesn't. It's not about screwing someone over, it's about being true to a sense of play style and vision.

lol, I know this has been said before but you people who seem to be so adamantly opposed to competitive play for whatever reason just don't get it (and you call us thick headed LOL).

Being casual friendly and supportive of the competitive scene are not mutually exclusive!

You want an example? Look at Melee, by far the best selling Gamecube game. It is enjoyed by both crowds independent of each other.

Don't bring up the **** about how casuals and "scrubs" are the main focus of the game. Yes they are the large majority of the game owners. However, having competitive depth in a game doesn't mean the game can't be eaten up by these millions of casuals. I could list tons of examples of games with tons of competitive depth, but still have millions of casual users.

Don't just go and call the competitive players thick headed because they wanted the game to be able to cater to their method of play. We don't want the game to be unapproachable or unfun for new comers and casual players. We wanted the very possible and very achievable situation where we would have a game that caters to both crowds. The most loyal fans and the most casual of players who may only play it because of some trend.

If you can't see how the two can coincide then you are truly the ignorant one.

What I'm opposed to is this **** superior attitude and arrogance. If it were just about you guys playing the way you want to, it'd be fine. BUT IT ISN'T.

You call the rest of us scrubs or trolls, and since this debate began you've been lamenting that Brawl has been "toned down" for our sakes like you were the ones most deserving. This is a VIDEO GAME. Putting weeks and time into something to earn the title of good doesn't amount to much outside of your own circle of gameplay, and it's certainly not a sport any significant number of people give a **** about.

And when you call the game designer, the ONE MAN who is entitled to speak about what he thinks is a good or bad way to play, a scrub, a noob, a troll, or anything else, then you have crossed the only possible line where you could claim to be justified.

I support the competitive players who acknowledge what their pursuits are in the grand scheme of things.

What I can never get behind are the people who who act like they define something or are more deserving. And I'm not saying you can't disagree with Sakurai either. That's FINE.

But that only takes you so far. But none of us, competitives 0R casuals, will be able to approach this unless we realize this doesn't matter and attempt to do something like adapt.

You haven't been screwed over. You bought this game, same as the rest of us, either uninitiated or informed about what Brawl would be. You had a product presented to you that you paid for. The emotions that resulted in what you found? Have no impact or importance to what really matters. You have not been betrayed, you have been given a product you do not find satisfactory.

If you choose to dwell on this, you don't have Sakurai to blame, you have yourselves.

I mean, what the ****, people, you're acting like his the guys at EA or Uwe Boll or something. Save the vitrol for people who don't actually care about entertainment. Your elitism only hurts the fandom.

Razorsaw · Mar 28, 2008

Dhgriff9 said:
Question, the game is catered to casual players, so how many casual players asked for a tripping mechanic to be added and l-canceling to be removed, after it was apparently already in the game? Same for anything else that was discovered at e4all that was taken out later. And how many casual players are now happy that tripping is in, because truthfully I've seen plenty of people everywhere complain about it not just competitive players here.

A mature person would probably either A) accept it as part of the game, like unto hazards, or other things that make the playing environment difficult, or B) Assess the situation, decide whether or not this sort of thing made an important enough difference to them, and make a decision about the game accordingly.

I don't like it when I miss in an RPG, or in instances in platformers that don't work in my favor. Whether or not it increases "fake difficulty" to the extent the game is no longer fun to play for me is something I judge on a case by case basis.

And so far, it hasn't annoyed me enough to make me not want to approach it again.

Forget Me Not · Mar 28, 2008

Dhgriff9 said:
Question, the game is catered to casual players, so how many casual players asked for a tripping mechanic to be added and l-canceling to be removed, after it was apparently already in the game? Same for anything else that was discovered at e4all that was taken out later. And how many casual players are now happy that tripping is in, because truthfully I've seen plenty of people everywhere complain about it not just competitive players here.

I'm sure if something doesn't go according to plan someone will go wtf. Besides we don't even know if tripping was meant to be in the game as a random effect without a banana peel.

It seems this topic has gotten out of hand, we're supposed to be discussing Sakurai's mindset towards Smash.

Sakurai IMO seems to have the mindset of someone who wants to make sure everyone is happy. The problem is he has tried to apply that to a competitive multiplayer video game that will have a loser no matter what. It can't work period in a multiplayer game. But, Sakurai is Japanese and they do tend to be quite weird in their ideals...look at Shigeru Miyamoto...

choknater · Mar 28, 2008

I like razorsaw, he is a pretty smart guy.

It's kinda like the feeling I had when I first saw Buzz posting really smart.

Wow, there must be some sort of correlation between posting smart and having usernames that have to do with sawing and sharpness.

Maybe it's because they are sharp and witty!

(Fun debate. People get so heated over this sort of thing instead of actually playing...)

Linkplayer5678 · Mar 28, 2008

Razorsaw said:
This is a VIDEO GAME.

http://smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=4223243&postcount=83

Razorsaw · Mar 28, 2008

Linkplayer5678 said:
http://smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=4223243&postcount=83

That is saying something very different from what I was saying.

I was using the fact that this is a video game to illuminate how trivial the core of this matter really is.

Linkplayer5678 · Mar 28, 2008

Vijin said:
Well jee, I guess that means you should NEVER compete! You know, because losing in things isn't a part of life! God forbid you lose in a video game!

And for the record, nothing that Sakurai has 'added' to the game as made me laugh.

Once again, there's no reason why the game can't be fun and competitive at the same time. That's what melee was. And in this game, he just tried to take away the competitiveness.

Best post in the entire thread!

Linkplayer5678 · Mar 28, 2008

Best video every made!
http://youtube.com/watch?v=TcMaWZ3tPAM

Sandwich · Mar 28, 2008

" In North America, Brawl sold over 874,000 units on launch day and over 1.4 million units in its first week, making it the fastest selling title in Nintendo of America's history."

That's from Wikipedia. That's North America alone, people. 1.4 million people bought the game.

And you know what?
There are only 107,501 people on SWF, possibly a few thousand more "competitives" that aren't affilliated with this forum.

So we're 107,501ish out of 1.4 million. Seriously.

We are most likely just one percent worth of the people who play smash brothers. You really think Sakurai is going to get on his knees, grasp your E-***** and begin giving you the fanservice blowjob just for one percent of his consumers?

People wonder why /v/ and everyone hates us so much, this is why.

ONE PERCENT.

RDK · Mar 28, 2008

Razorsaw said:
That is saying something very different from what I was saying.

I was using the fact that this is a video game to illuminate how trivial the core of this matter really is.

This isn't about whether or not we'll adapt--of course the competitive community will adapt. It's what we do.

This is honestly about Sakurai being a **** to the only Smash fanbase that matters in the long run. The audience he's so fervently trying to target won't be the ones who will be playing Brawl five years from now. WE will.

Bottom line, all Sakurai did was kill Brawl's competitive potential and wh0red it out so 5 year olds won't feel bad when they get spanked at a ****ING VIDEO GAME.

As if people's self esteem isn't already bloated enough.

RDK · Mar 28, 2008

Sandwich said:
" In North America, Brawl sold over 874,000 units on launch day and over 1.4 million units in its first week, making it the fastest selling title in Nintendo of America's history."

That's from Wikipedia. That's North America alone, people. 1.4 million people bought the game.

And you know what?
There are only 107,501 people on SWF, possibly a few thousand more "competitives" that aren't affilliated with this forum.

So we're 107,501ish out of 1.4 million. Seriously.

We are most likely just one percent worth of the people who play smash brothers. You really think Sakurai is going to get on his knees, grasp your E-***** and begin giving you the fanservice blowjob just for one percent of his consumers?

People wonder why /v/ and everyone hates us so much, this is why.

ONE PERCENT.

Who gives one flying **** what /v/tards think? Go back to fapping to pictures of Pokemon, Chan***.

Dhgriff9 · Mar 28, 2008

Razorsaw said:
A mature person would probably either A) accept it as part of the game, like unto hazards, or other things that make the playing environment difficult, or B) Assess the situation, decide whether or not this sort of thing made an important enough difference to them, and make a decision about the game accordingly.

I don't like it when I miss in an RPG, or in instances in platformers that don't work in my favor. Whether or not it increases "fake difficulty" to the extent the game is no longer fun to play for me is something I judge on a case by case basis.

And so far, it hasn't annoyed me enough to make me not want to approach it again.

What I see as the problem with Sakurai's mindset though, and how the game is catered is this, yes he catered to casual players. But he seems to be not necessarily out just to cater to casuals but at the same time try to stop competitive play. Why add and take away features that appeal to a group that don't effect one group. Why add tripping that apparently was to make people NOT win when casuals will not be affected, and if anything a new player may not like loosing due to randomly falling, of course the player who doesn't play due to one incident of tripping on a first match probably won't play too many games anyway. While I don't think adding advanced techs into the game just to appease competitive players should have happened, but why take away what was supposedly there at E4all(if someone could find what was in the game that would have made it more competitive but was removed it would help out some.) if the audience catered to (causals) wouldn't have cared or known about it except for the minority of casuals who went on youtube and found these things. And even of the casuals who ever did find anything not all complained.

In short because i go on about nothing too much: If E4all was more competitive and had more competitive potential, why take that away when most wouldn't care at all, or even known about it.

I question his mindset of trying to eliminate competition from a game, when competitive players are potential customers. Just as I would question someone making a game where it is so hard to control only a player who studied it could become good at all. Especially if it is the sequel of a game where both casual and competitive played.

lol late post.

Razorsaw · Mar 28, 2008

Red Darkstar Kirby said:
This isn't about whether or not we'll adapt--of course the competitive community will adapt. It's what we do.

This is honestly about Sakurai being a **** to the only Smash fanbase that matters in the long run. The audience he's so fervently trying to target won't be the ones who will be playing Brawl five years from now. WE will.

Bottom line, all Sakurai did was kill Brawl's competitive potential and wh0red it out so 5 year olds won't feel bad when they get spanked at a ****ING VIDEO GAME.

As if people's self esteem isn't already bloated enough.

This is honestly about Sakurai being a **** to the only Smash fanbase that matters in the long run.

THis is where you screwed up.

You. ARE. NOT.

YOU ARE NOT THE ONLY PART OF THE FANBASE THAT MATTERS. YOU ARE NOT. NOT. NOT. NOT. You are not in any measure of anything that is quantifiable.

You are a tiny group of people that have come together in what APPEARS to be large numbers and convinced yourselves that you are the face of a fandom. Or, your entire approach to gaming has inflated your sense of purpose.

You matter. You matter in the same sense that all human beings matter. You matter to the extent that every single consumer who buys a copy of the game matters.

You ARE NOT THE ONLY PEOPLE THAT MATTER. What you represent isn't just gaming talent and dedication to playing, you represent conceitedness, arrogance, and vitrol. And when that kind of attitude has a public face?

You can **** well be rest assured people are going to resent it.

Razorsaw · Mar 28, 2008

Dhgriff9 said:
What I see as the problem with Sakurai's mindset though, and how the game is catered is this, yes he catered to casual players. But he seems to be not necessarily out just to cater to casuals but at the same time try to stop competitive play. Why add and take away features that appeal to a group that don't effect one group. Why add tripping that apparently was to make people NOT win when casuals will not be affected, and if anything a new player may not like loosing due to randomly falling, of course the player who doesn't play due to one incident of tripping on a first match probably won't play too many games anyway. While I don't think adding advanced techs into the game just to appease competitive players should have happened, but why take away what was supposedly there at E4all(if someone could find what was in the game that would have made it more competitive but was removed it would help out some.) if the audience catered to (causals) wouldn't have cared or known about it except for the minority of casuals who went on youtube and found these things. And even of the casuals who ever did find anything not all complained.

In short because i go on about nothing too much: If E4all was more competitive and had more competitive potential, why take that away when most wouldn't care at all, or even known about it.

I question his mindset of trying to eliminate competition from a game, when competitive players are potential customers. Just as I would question someone making a game where it is so hard to control only a player who studied it could become good at all. Especially if it is the sequel of a game where both casual and competitive played.

lol late post.

That's fine. It's a sensible viewpoint. And it's better than the type of approach that believes Sakurai is a monster, scrub, or whatever pointless noun they want to assign to him. I have no problem with sensible criticism.

Do I disagree with you? Yeah, probably. But what I also believe is that we should be cognizant of where fandom actually stands in the face of stuff like this and be fair and accepting of these issues.

Brawler1432 · Mar 28, 2008

Banned 64 points?

nightSN · Mar 28, 2008

well no wonder ranking isnt in the game =.="

LouisLeGros · Mar 28, 2008

Razorsaw said:
What I'm opposed to is this **** superior attitude and arrogance. If it were just about you guys playing the way you want to, it'd be fine. BUT IT ISN'T.

You call the rest of us scrubs or trolls, and since this debate began you've been lamenting that Brawl has been "toned down" for our sakes like you were the ones most deserving. This is a VIDEO GAME. Putting weeks and time into something to earn the title of good doesn't amount to much outside of your own circle of gameplay, and it's certainly not a sport any significant number of people give a **** about.

And when you call the game designer, the ONE MAN who is entitled to speak about what he thinks is a good or bad way to play, a scrub, a noob, a troll, or anything else, then you have crossed the only possible line where you could claim to be justified.

I support the competitive players who acknowledge what their pursuits are in the grand scheme of things.

What I can never get behind are the people who who act like they define something or are more deserving. And I'm not saying you can't disagree with Sakurai either. That's FINE.

But that only takes you so far. But none of us, competitives 0R casuals, will be able to approach this unless we realize this doesn't matter and attempt to do something like adapt.

You haven't been screwed over. You bought this game, same as the rest of us, either uninitiated or informed about what Brawl would be. You had a product presented to you that you paid for. The emotions that resulted in what you found? Have no impact or importance to what really matters. You have not been betrayed, you have been given a product you do not find satisfactory.

If you choose to dwell on this, you don't have Sakurai to blame, you have yourselves.

I mean, what the ****, people, you're acting like his the guys at EA or Uwe Boll or something. Save the vitrol for people who don't actually care about entertainment. Your elitism only hurts the fandom.

I'm not exactly sure if this was directed at me, or the competitive players in general.

If it was directed me then I take offense.

I didn't call anyone a troll or scrub. I didn't say anyones method of playing was worse or that one group was more deserving.

You are the one coming to this forum which has been for years the center of competitive smash and pretty much insult us for the way we enjoy to play the game. You say what we do doesn't amount to much and that it isn't like a sport. Who cares? Why does baseball amount to much while what we enjoy doesn't? Who cares about the number of people in the community or that we don't make millions of dollars. In this community we goto tournament and play the game we love and enjoy ourselves. We go out and make friends at these events and it is our hobby. I don't care what you or what anyone else thinks. I don't see why what we do amounts to any less then any other competitive game just because we don't get aired on television like Basketball or football. What we personally gain as individuals is really the only thing that matters.

And when you call the game designer, the ONE MAN who is entitled to speak about what he thinks is a good or bad way to play, a scrub, a noob, a troll, or anything else, then you have crossed the only possible line where you could claim to be justified.

I really don't think this is directed at me. The people who have insult Sakurai are sort of out of line, but it really just shows that they care about the game and the community.

However, just because Sakurai is the designer doesn't mean he dictates what is a good way or what is a bad way to play. He takes out competitive aspects of melee from brawl. Does that mean the way we were playing was bad? It may appear that Sakurai might think that, but does that make him correct?

But that only takes you so far. But none of us, competitives 0R casuals, will be able to approach this unless we realize this doesn't matter and attempt to do something like adapt.

You haven't been screwed over. You bought this game, same as the rest of us, either uninitiated or informed about what Brawl would be. You had a product presented to you that you paid for. The emotions that resulted in what you found? Have no impact or importance to what really matters. You have not been betrayed, you have been given a product you do not find satisfactory.

If you choose to dwell on this, you don't have Sakurai to blame, you have yourselves.

I mean, what the ****, people, you're acting like his the guys at EA or Uwe Boll or something. Save the vitrol for people who don't actually care about entertainment. Your elitism only hurts the fandom.

We have been adapting. The melee players have primarily been the ones advancing the metagame.

We know that in the grand scheme of things how we feel about this game doesn't matter, but in this community that has developed here it DOES matter.

I don't care how you look at it, but the aspects of the game that we, the competitive players, most enjoyed have been hampered. Whether we blame Sakurai for doing this or ourselves for expecting something that we had no right over anyone else to expect it doesn't change our disappointment and you may say it doesn't matter, but to us it does matter.

Go ahead and call us elitist and say what we do doesn't matter. However, this forum has grown to be what it is because of our community. This may not be really be important, but then what really makes anything important? As long as we the individuals of the community care then it will matter to us. We could care less about what you or what anyone else thinks.

MookieRah · Mar 28, 2008

I would expect him to make the kind of game he was interested in making.

I would expect him to make a game that newcomers and old fans would enjoy. The last I checked we were the ones buying his game, and his obligations would be to the fans and not just his vision.

1. The man isn't interesting in making that kind of game, and 2. It doesn't really affect much if he doesn't. It's not about screwing someone over, it's about being true to a sense of play style and vision.

Doesn't really matter. From a developer view point he purposely restricted game play elements for his naive notion of everyone is a winner.

What I'm opposed to is this **** superior attitude and arrogance. If it were just about you guys playing the way you want to, it'd be fine. BUT IT ISN'T.

IT IS JUST THAT! We didn't go around causing trouble to casual players. Before Brawl was announced very few of you knew that the competitive melee scene EXISTED! We didn't have people coming to the boards telling us how to play the game! Oh noes! The only time this happened is when the new influx of members came to the site and started getting upset that we didn't uphold their personal morals with a video game!

You call the rest of us scrubs or trolls, and since this debate began you've been lamenting that Brawl has been "toned down" for our sakes like you were the ones most deserving.

Come on now. A lot of the "oppression" you are feeling is merely the direct result of people getting tired of constantly defending the way we play to a bunch of ignorant people who for some reason want to tell us the right way to play. You guys weren't around when this site was not ransacked by immature posters who were bent on removing glitches from competitive play.

Also, I make distinctions between casual players and scrubs, as do most of the people here. Why can't we all just learn to ignore the idiots from both sides of the fence and realize there is no reason to be fighting in the first place?

And when you call the game designer, the ONE MAN who is entitled to speak about what he thinks is a good or bad way to play, a scrub, a noob, a troll, or anything else, then you have crossed the only possible line where you could claim to be justified.

He's a fool. Straight up. You can't get beyond the fact that Melee catered to both groups effectively, and all he had to do was embrace some of the things that made Melee great and put it in Brawl in some form or fashion. Instead he made the executive decision to try to limit the depth of the game so that it increased the chances of people with less skill to win. How can you begin to say that is good game design? The only reason he made it that way was for some idealistic naive BS that is complete and total PC garbage. Seriously, there are winners and losers in a video game. I enjoy playing the game if I win or lose, even in a competitive setting. If you aren't mature enough to enjoy a game if you aren't winning then you shouldn't play games. You should never, ever, develop a game that panders to immature people who couldn't cope with losing.

What I can never get behind are the people who who act like they define something or are more deserving.

Who the heck is saying they are more deserving? We are simply saying that Sakurai should have catered to everyone, and that he shouldn't have slapped the competitive players in the face.

But none of us, competitives 0R casuals, will be able to approach this unless we realize this doesn't matter and attempt to do something like adapt.

Just cause we are complaining about it doesn't mean we aren't trying to find ways to make this game better. Also you are assuming that we can't adapt. We are adapting, but we are discovering that our options are limited due to poor game design. You can't adapt when you don't have the option to do so, that is why we are complaining.

Everyone got screwed over. Even the casual players. They may have never cared to take their game further, but for the most part we don't really have the options to get as competitive as we could have if Sakurai had the foresight to cater to everyone.

SlyNinja · Mar 28, 2008

Gimpyfish62 said:
so just discuss, that's what this is for, I'm not saying brawl isn't good and that sakurai is a big dumb dumb, I'm saying that melee was never supposed to be a competitive game, so there should really be no surprise that brawl hasn't been catered specially for the competitive players...

This is by far the most well thought out paragraph I've ever read on these forums, no sarcasm.

RDK · Mar 28, 2008

Razorsaw said:
This is honestly about Sakurai being a **** to the only Smash fanbase that matters in the long run.

THis is where you screwed up.

You. ARE. NOT.

YOU ARE NOT THE ONLY PART OF THE FANBASE THAT MATTERS. YOU ARE NOT. NOT. NOT. NOT. You are not in any measure of anything that is quantifiable.

You are a tiny group of people that have come together in what APPEARS to be large numbers and convinced yourselves that you are the face of a fandom. Or, your entire approach to gaming has inflated your sense of purpose.

You matter. You matter in the same sense that all human beings matter. You matter to the extent that every single consumer who buys a copy of the game matters.

You ARE NOT THE ONLY PEOPLE THAT MATTER. What you represent isn't just gaming talent and dedication to playing, you represent conceitedness, arrogance, and vitrol. And when that kind of attitude has a public face?

You can **** well be rest assured people are going to resent it.

Did you read the rest of my post? Yes, we are the only Smash fanbse that matters in the long run. The casuals don't show HALF the dedication or loyalty to the game that we show.

Modeling a game aroud a casual, transient audience who will move on in a few years wasn't the best move for Sakurai. He's trying to make Brawl more like Mario Party when it should be more like Street Fighter.

Samochan · Mar 28, 2008

It's not about who matters the most. It also doesn't matter that Sakurai outprioritised the casual community over us competitives, it's fine to me. Smash brothers is party game at heart., but also half fightning game. But it definitely isn't fine that when Sakurai thinks Brawl is the ideal of a game that should be fun to everyone, when in reality he stripped away lots of things we loved in melee and gave competitive community nothing in return... that's what irks me.

No matter how people play, I want everyone to be
happy! Is this asking for too much?

We, competitive community, are not that happy about how brawl turned out to be, cause we were let down. Is it asking too much to not dumb down a game and strip it from it's glory that was melee, only to add a shiny outer shell to it and gimmicks? Sakurai's words and E for All are proof that sakurai doesn't want brawl to be competitive and is giving us the finger, yet people here, out of all places, do not get why do we complain about brawl not having enough depth for competitive play. >_>

Isn't melee catering to all audiences and didn't it live long? Didn't everyone have fun playing melee their own way? Why fix something that isn't broken?

Pwnography · Mar 28, 2008

I agree with Sakurai 100%. All games should be fun, it's what has been missing from video games this past decade. It's also what has made video games less fun.

Linkplayer5678 · Mar 28, 2008

Pwnography said:
I agree with Sakurai 100%. All games should be fun, it's what has been missing from video games this past decade.

http://smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=4223243&postcount=83

Sandwich · Mar 28, 2008

Red Darkstar Kirby said:
Did you read the rest of my post? Yes, we are the only Smash fanbse that matters in the long run. The casuals don't show HALF the dedication or loyalty to the game that we show.

Modeling a game aroud a casual, transient audience who will move on in a few years wasn't the best move for Sakurai. He's trying to make Brawl more like Mario Party when it should be more like Street Fighter.

More like street fighter?
First it was BRAWL SHOULD BE MOAR LIEK MELEE now it should be more like street fighter?

Go back to shoryuken.

How do we even know sakurai cares about the average tourney***?

And why can't Melee still be THE ****ING GAME if Brawl sucks so bad?

0/10

RDK · Mar 28, 2008

Pwnography said:
I agree with Sakurai 100%. All games should be fun, it's what has been missing from video games this past decade. It's also what has made video games less fun.

Look, Mookie! Here come the 4channers.

Linkplayer5678 · Mar 28, 2008

sage

Sandwich said:
More like street fighter?
First it was BRAWL SHOULD BE MOAR LIEK MELEE now it should be more like street fighter?

Go back to shoryuken.

How do we even know sakurai cares about the average tourney***?

And why can't Melee still be THE ****ING GAME if Brawl sucks so bad?

0/10

this
also sage

Linkplayer5678 · Mar 28, 2008

Red Darkstar Kirby said:
Look, Mookie! Here come the 4channers.

Mookie is nice now. :3

Thino · Mar 28, 2008

Sakurai obviously did that for the sake of the new audience Nintendo is targetting plus with online capabilities, he tried decreased the skill gap the most possible to avoid the result they had for MKDS and snaking.
of course the competitive side is more loyal and more dedicated to the game but eh , its not the only side

Dhgriff9 · Mar 28, 2008

Red Darkstar Kirby said:
Did you read the rest of my post? Yes, we are the only Smash fanbse that matters in the long run. The casuals don't show HALF the dedication or loyalty to the game that we show.

Modeling a game aroud a casual, transient audience who will move on in a few years wasn't the best move for Sakurai. He's trying to make Brawl more like Mario Party when it should be more like Street Fighter.

I have to disagree here. Yes competitive players do keep a game living, but companies are not interested in that. To most companies what matters is how many people buy it.

Casuals are a larger group of people, so they will be catered to, not the competitive player.

While I don't think Sakurai should try to eliminate competitive play, specifically trying to cater competitive players would not work, as more casuals would go in expecting a party game and being unhappy with it, than competitive players who bought brawl expecting a fighting game and getting disappointed that it is more of a party game like what it going on now.

If catering to the hardcore was the best strategy then the wii wouldn't be the top selling console.

Razorsaw · Mar 28, 2008

I'm not exactly sure if this was directed at me, or the competitive players in general.

If it was directed me then I take offense.

It was directed at your post and the general attitude that I oppose, as well as an attempt to clarify that my argument was not what you debased it to.

You are the one coming to this forum which has been for years the center of competitive smash and pretty much insult us for the way we enjoy to play the game. You say what we do doesn't amount to much and that it isn't like a sport. Who cares? Why does baseball amount to much while what we enjoy doesn't?

I have no opposition to competitive players who want to play competitively. I have opposition to competitive players who take a stance of arrogance and entitlement without realizing they make up a very small part of the concerns of both the fandom and developers. Your concerns are valid, but they're your concerns and self contained.

Let's look at Smash vs. Baseball. Smash = one tiny part of an entire industry, that albeit makes a lot of money. Baseball? Is both a fandom and an INDUSTRY all itself. I'd say there's a a HUGE degree of separation.

Come on now. A lot of the "oppression" you are feeling is merely the direct result of people getting tired of constantly defending the way we play to a bunch of ignorant people who for some reason want to tell us the right way to play. You guys weren't around when this site was not ransacked by immature posters who were bent on removing glitches from competitive play.

The "oppression" I'm feeling comes from an attitude born out of being in fandoms for years that are too caught up in narrow viewpoints and lack of concern for a broader scope or appeal to a broader audience. I've been here for a month or so. I could honestly care less about glitches, or tier wars, or whatever the hell you're assuming I'm talking about. If anything, you seem to be the one who seems affected by those past events. This isn't about defending the honor of all competitive players, it's lumping all of us into one big group that's easier for you to attack. Meanwhile, I've actually separated the general group from what I'm fed up with.

However, just because Sakurai is the designer doesn't mean he dictates what is a good way or what is a bad way to play.

While the issue is, at its core, a very subjective thing, I'd consider him more qualified to make a statement like that than anyone on this forum.

Go ahead and call us elitist and say what we do doesn't matter. However, this forum has grown to be what it is because of our community. This may not be really be important, but then what really makes anything important? As long as we the individuals of the community care then it will matter to us. We could care less about what you or what anyone else thinks.

All competitive players aren't elitist. But there are a significant number of people who are. And when dealing with fandom, whose "important" is the group of people most affected by the released product. It is not the "true fans", it is the general buying public and the people who put their talent for art, design, and creativity into something. For the former, you have to look at the whole constituency, and Smash Bros. constituency is much bigger than this forum, OR competitive players.

I would expect him to make a game that newcomers and old fans would enjoy. The last I checked we were the ones buying his game, and his obligations would be to the fans and not just his vision.

I would expect any creator to bring his vision and concern for the wider fanbase HAND IN HAND. And he made a decision accordingly, and by jove, it seems to have paid off in the end. He balanced what he thought people should get out of a game along with what the largest number of people really wanted to see: Not advanced techs, not a healthy metagame, but rather, Nintendo characters beating the **** out of each other.

You're part of his fanbase, yes, but as stated before? You're less than 1%.

IT IS JUST THAT! We didn't go around causing trouble to casual players. Before Brawl was announced very few of you knew that the competitive melee scene EXISTED! We didn't have people coming to the boards telling us how to play the game! Oh noes! The only time this happened is when the new influx of members came to the site and started getting upset that we didn't uphold their personal morals with a video game!

So what, this is vengeance? It's not about morals, either. It's about making an environment that's open and friendly for all involved. This isn't going to be a great place to hang out as long as this goes on. This is about creating a sensible, respectful fandom with a sense of priorities and fairness.

Who the heck is saying they are more deserving? We are simply saying that Sakurai should have catered to everyone, and that he shouldn't have slapped the competitive players in the face.

You HAVEN'T been slapped in the face because you haven't been wronged. Wronging a fanbase is when they shill things and actually impede development for the sake of making quick dollars. Wronging a fanbase occurs when people legitimately DON'T CARE. Having a design philosophy isn't a slap in the face.

It can be unfair in your eyes, it can be a bad business decision, and you can disagree with it on a fundamental level. But in the end, it's not something that personal.

Samochan · Mar 28, 2008

Sandwich said:
How do we even know sakurai cares about the average tourney***?

And why can't Melee still be THE ****ING GAME if Brawl sucks so bad?

Did you ever read the opening post? >_> I suggest you do so. <_<

Oh and unless you didn't know, Brawl is a new game for the new console Wii. Melee is teh old game. New games overshadow old games with... newness and accessibility. And pretty graphics and new characters and stuff.

Razorsaw · Mar 28, 2008

Red Darkstar Kirby said:
Did you read the rest of my post? Yes, we are the only Smash fanbse that matters in the long run. The casuals don't show HALF the dedication or loyalty to the game that we show.

Modeling a game aroud a casual, transient audience who will move on in a few years wasn't the best move for Sakurai. He's trying to make Brawl more like Mario Party when it should be more like Street Fighter.

The rest of your post was basically reiteration of the basic diatribe because it's flat out disrespectful and wrong. And yes, this is actually a matter of actual disrespect because it deals with matters that aren't subjective and deals with interpersonal relationships.

You have a mistaken view of what matters that speaks only of arrogance, and which ultimately doesn't serve to do much for both the creators who put their time and investment into the franchise.

And I think it is possible to create an enduring fanbase of players that don't play competitively. It exists in EVERY fanbase that isn't built around fighting games.

Samuman · Mar 28, 2008

I'm actually a little disappointed. I think that both realms can exist in perfect harmony. I love playing by the MLG 3 stock no item FD match, but it's so fun with items and a bunch of casual buddies as well. I just think it's that kind of game where you can take it seriously or just have fun with it. When you are playing any kind of game; whether it be a video game, board game, or sport, you're playing to win; otherwise there is no reason to play, correct?

Linkplayer5678 · Mar 28, 2008

Samochan said:
Did you ever read the opening post? >_> I suggest you do so. <_<

Oh and unless you didn't know, Brawl is a new game for the new console Wii. Melee is teh old game. New games overshadow old games with... newness and accessibility. And pretty graphics and new characters and stuff.

He's talking about RDK's post, not the first post ***got.

Sakurai does not want Smash to be a competitive franchise

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