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Sakurai does not want Smash to be a competitive franchise

Joined
Feb 6, 2008
Messages
72
It's their game, but that doesn't make it a good decision. We are mad because Sakurai made a mistake, and a very big one at that. IF he REALLY was so big into people playing it how they want to, he could have easily left in, or made similar options to the things he took out of melee, and given the PLAYERS the option to decide to use them or not. By dumbing it down and simplifying the game so much, it really doesn't help anyone, as it just hurts people who would like to play the game competitively.
He did it because he was sick of how people would take losses. Seriously, if you were a game developer, which would you like the players to do more:

A( Laugh because they lost of a simple yet humorous mishap and move onto the next match?

Or B( Go to a tourney for money, lose, then end up crying and cutting themselves because they lost to a space animal?

Just because he is the game designer doesn't mean he is mighter then thou and impossible of doing wrong.
Actually, it kind of does. If you were to make a game. Which would you do? Would you make it just like all the games out there that people mindlessly play because it's just the same thing in essence? Or make a game that YOU want to make, have fun, and see how it goes over with the community?
 

GDX

Smash Hero
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gimpy....how many of these threads are you going to make? You could at least put these in the official complaint thread that i believe you also made. In fact, just make a new reply that says "brawl is good and fun, but will never be as good as melee" to save us reading time.
 

Vijin

Smash Ace
Joined
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Messages
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Melbourne, Fl
He did it because he was sick of how people would take losses. Seriously, if you were a game developer, which would you like the players to do more:

A( Laugh because they lost of a simple yet humorous mishap and move onto the next match?

Or B( Go to a tourney for money, lose, then end up crying and cutting themselves because they lost to a space animal?
Well jee, I guess that means you should NEVER compete! You know, because losing in things isn't a part of life! God forbid you lose in a video game!

And for the record, nothing that Sakurai has 'added' to the game as made me laugh.



Actually, it kind of does. If you were to make a game. Which would you do? Would you make it just like all the games out there that people mindlessly play because it's just the same thing in essence? Or make a game that YOU want to make, have fun, and see how it goes over with the community?
Once again, there's no reason why the game can't be fun and competitive at the same time. That's what melee was. And in this game, he just tried to take away the competitiveness.
 

Embrio

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 21, 2008
Messages
59
Yo Gimpy, I beat you to the punch already lol. I decided this topic should be where it belongs and amongst the Smash dudes. No offence to anyone on SRK who is actually decent but that places has some big time trolls the likes of which gamefaqs has never seen lol.
 

MookieRah

Kinda Sorta OK at Smash
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He did it because he was sick of how people would take losses. Seriously, if you were a game developer, which would you like the players to do more:
If you can't handle loss, then you might as well kill yourself. I know that sounds harsh, but seriously... this is LIFE. If you get upset over a loss in a video game, especially when you are not as good as your opponent, then you need to GROW UP. This is an issue of maturity, and if the individual was mature he wouldn't take a loss in smash to heart.
Or B( Go to a tourney for money, lose, then end up crying and cutting themselves because they lost to a space animal?
Again, it's a tournament. Are you saying that the better player shouldn't win because there might be some sad little individual who can't cope with loss? Also... if they cut themselves over it... that's definitely not the developers fault, it's the fault of the individual, and very likely the parents of said individual.
Actually, it kind of does.
No, it doesn't. He made the game, but he isn't perfect. How is he perfect just cause he made the game?
Seriously, if you were a game developer, which would you like the players to do more:
If I was a game developer I would focus on making a game that catered to everyone. I wouldn't alienate people who wanted to play competitively, nor would I make the game so convoluted as to make casual players deterred by it. On top of that, I would definitely not focus my development in a way as to exclude some of my biggest fans. The game would be for my fans, and not for myself.
 

Senshuu

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I think after the subject title, the first post should have only consisted of a link to Super Smash Bros.' NA commercial.
 

ecafrusehtrednu

Smash Rookie
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Games weren't intended for 'mature' people in the first place, and Nintendo definitely did not aim Smash for the mature gamers neither. It's not that I disagree with you Mookierah, people should mature and grow up, but games are definitely not obliged to encourage people to grow up.

This game wasn't for himself, it was for casual gamers. People who played casually at other people's houses so that they would buy the game, have a party, and play it themselves.

And yes, I do know I've said something many people have already mentioned before, but there are still people arguing and complaining about this. It didn't seem like people were getting the message, so sorry if I seem ignorant. :]
 

MookieRah

Kinda Sorta OK at Smash
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This game wasn't for himself, it was for casual gamers. People who played casually at other people's houses so that they would buy the game, have a party, and play it themselves.
Melee did that too, yet it also worked out (though unintentionally) for competitive players too. All he had to do was keep stuff in, or make new stuff that was official and with his own spin on them. The thing is, he decided for himself that he didn't want other people to play the game outside of his vision. There was no reason to do it, as this wouldn't even affect casual players. That's my whole point, he needlessly excluded a large amount of people (and yes, this scene is large, even though it's only a small percentage of the people who play brawl, it is still extremely large) just cause it didn't fit into his politically correct "everyone wins" mindset.

That is BS regardless of how you look at it.
 

S_B

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Well, there's hope for the future, anyway.

Look what a Wiiware dev has to say about their game, Gravitronix:

"we hope to have a situation where new players can simply twist a controller and press a single button to repel incoming attacks, thus enjoying the basic pretense of the game, while veteran players will have pitched battles involving mind games and reflex where they attempt to trick their opponents into overcompensating, expending too much beam energy, and then being overtaken as the other player launches an attack their beams are too weak to repel. "

http://www.vc-reviews.com/news/2008/02/wiiware_focus_interview_with_medaverse_gravitronix

These guys seem to understand that players love a real challenge and a deep, competitive game where your skills have room to grow.

I know it's not competitive SSB, but at least devs haven't all resigned to the idea that games are meant to make everyone happy and that "everyone is a winner".

I understand where Sakurai is coming from to some extent, but victory and defeat are key to learning to better yourself and to try again when you fail.

The idea that competition should be frowned upon and that everyone is equal is pure rubbish. Nature itself is built upon the idea that the strong survive and the weak do not, but those who are not strong learn to BE strong through failure. No one will ever get better at anything unless they lose at it.

What skilled SSB player didn't get to be that way through hundreds of losses at the hands of superior opponents? It is ONLY through defeat that we learn what we did wrong and learn to get better. I'm sure there are SSB players who stomp all over their friends and are the best in their group, but get CREAMED when they go online because their friends never challenged them to get better and learn new techniques.

And that is the beauty of competition: people learn to get better through adversity. I feel bad when I lose, sure, but I feel better when losing means I learn to play better the next time around.

Society seems to have this dreaded stigma against failure, and that crap needs to go away. No one gets better except through failure, period, and no matter how casual a player may be, human beings need to learn that or the REAL world is going to absolutely annihilate them when they try to get a job where they're up against other candidates or attempt to woo a love interest.

This is the nature of life. Denying it is a disservice.
 

RDK

Smash Hero
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Messages
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Your opinion, not mine buddy.

(And yes, I am glad they took out Wavedashing and all those other glitches incase anyone is wondering. Yes, they are glitches, they were not put in there to make people better, they were unintentional overlooks and are exploits of the flaws in the game's engine, I.E. a glitch.)
Lol, your username suits you perfectly.

Honestly, a good half of these arguments start because someone was butthurt about how deep Melee was. And what's the first counter EVERYONE brings up? The glitch argument.

Give it up. It's a tired, old argument, and now this thread is like a bad rerun of the Simpsons.
 

ecafrusehtrednu

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Yes, but he didn't want those petty arguments such as about whether or not to allow Wavedashing or L-Cancelling because some people might not know it or not. Maybe I'm not explaining it well, but take this in mind, if there is a party where they are playing Melee, and someone who is devoted to this website (although his friends are definitely not the hardcore camer as he is), then what fun is there to be constantly beat down by that one person? Utilizing wavedashing and all the other advanced moves are key to winning in pro tournaments, sure, but when the arrogant and cocky people use them, they will abuse these moves against their casual friends and will soon find themselves not being able to attend their little get-togethers. Face it, majority of humans are stubborn, they should ask for help and advice from the higher-up, but they won't. People are born immature.

Survival of the fittest, sure, but Sakurai doesn't want that. He wants everyone to have a chance at winning, even if it's the most random chance. This isn't a game about morals or values, winning or losing; it's a party game.
 

MookieRah

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Maybe I'm not explaining it well, but take this in mind, if there is a party where they are playing Melee, and someone who is devoted to this website (although his friends are definitely not the hardcore camer as he is), then what fun is there to be constantly beat down by that one person? Utilizing wavedashing and all the other advanced moves are key to winning in pro tournaments, and when the arrogant and cocky people use them, they will be abuse these moves against their casual friends and will soon find themselves not being able to attend their little get-togethers.
Maybe you could choose not to play with them? Maybe the person who is competitive could just play more casually? Maybe they shouldn't invite that guy?

Basically, you could apply that to any game and any sport. That doesn't make those games suck. Oh noes, Michael Jordan just showed up guys, he's going to pwn us in our casual b-ball match. Seriously now...

Besides, you cant avoid that anyways. Even in Brawl, if someone who is a tournament veteran they will still win most if not all of their matches if they were trying in a casual setting. There is still a skill gap. The thing is, when you cross that skill gap, you realize that the game sorta gets camp heavy and more shallow.

This problem is unavoidable, and by trying to address it, it only hurts the longevity of the game.
 

RDK

Smash Hero
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Yes, but he didn't want those petty arguments such as about whether or not to allow Wavedashing or L-Cancelling because some people might not know it or not. Maybe I'm not explaining it well, but take this in mind, if there is a party where they are playing Melee, and someone who is devoted to this website (although his friends are definitely not the hardcore camer as he is), then what fun is there to be constantly beat down by that one person? Utilizing wavedashing and all the other advanced moves are key to winning in pro tournaments, sure, but when the arrogant and cocky people use them, they will abuse these moves against their casual friends and will soon find themselves not being able to attend their little get-togethers. Face it, majority of humans are stubborn, they should ask for help and advice from the higher-up, but they won't. People are born immature.

Survival of the fittest, sure, but Sakurai doesn't want that. He wants everyone to have a chance at winning, even if it's the most random chance. This isn't a game about morals or values, winning or losing; it's a party game.
If you want a party game, go play ****ing Mario Party. Why do people have such a big problem with a game being deceptively deep?

That's what stuns me about Sakurai's inherent stupidity. He could have easily left in advanced techniques without forcing them into casual play. But he just had to be a ****.
 

S_B

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I should add that the onus of being a "good winner" also needs to be carried by skilled players.

I'll happily lose time and time again to someone who is skilled at the game and isn't an *** about it, but arrogant pricks need to be silenced.

Maybe you could choose not to play with them? Maybe the person who is competitive could just play more casually? Maybe they shouldn't invite that guy?

Basically, you could apply that to any game and any sport. That doesn't make those games suck. Oh noes, Michael Jordan just showed up guys, he's going to pwn us in our casual b-ball match. Seriously now...

Besides, you cant avoid that anyways. Even in Brawl, if someone who is a tournament veteran they will still win most if not all of their matches if they were trying in a casual setting. There is still a skill gap. The thing is, when you cross that skill gap, you realize that the game sorta gets camp heavy and more shallow.

This problem is unavoidable, and by trying to address it, it only hurts the longevity of the game.
QFT

There will always be better players. This is inevitable. Trying to "balance the playing field" is just silly when it's something which will inevitably resolve itself anyway.

There was a short story I read a while back about "equality" and a bizarre take of how it might evolve in society.

Basically, good looking people were forced to wear masks to make them ugly. Smart people had to wear devices which gave them headaches to make them less coherent, and strong people had to wear weights to weigh them down (which in actuality will only make them stronger). It was a cautionary tale of what happens when a society puts too much emphasis on equality.

And for Red Dwarf fans, just remember that Arnold Rimmer only became the suaver, sexier, all-around awesomer Ace Rimmer in an alternate universe where he was held back a grade and the pain from failure drove him to fight back to get better and he was fighting back ever since.
 

ecafrusehtrednu

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Then he will be rejected, being arrogant and stubborn, I wouldn't think he is at all the most mature person neither. So what now? Sakurai wants to include everyone, and when those pro veterans get their ***es handed to them by a golden hammer, it still feels good to the frequent loser.

If you want a party game, go play ****ing Mario Party. Why do people have such a big problem with a game being deceptively deep?

That's what stuns me about Sakurai's inherent stupidity. He could have easily left in advanced techniques without forcing them into casual play. But he just had to be a ****.
I don't recall at all having a problem with a game deceptively deep. I loved the concept of wavedashing and hidden techniques/glitches/whatever-you-want-to-call-them in the game, but I'm not denying that Brawl has that same potential (unlike many others here). I'm just giving my point of view of the other side, because in this situation, I am completely neutral. I love the fact that casual gamers can win by the pick-up of a random item, and I look enthusiastically towards the future of this game's advanced techniques. What I wish, though, is for people to put some thought into the techniques, instead of being here complaining about Sakurai's point of view.

Maybe I'm helping to stop this, or maybe I'm just adding fuel to the fire, right now, though, I could care less. It's all fun to me now, and all I'm doing is acting on impulse.
 

DDM

Smash Journeyman
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Honest to God, you guys really need to STFU. How arrogant do you have to be to be pissed off that Sakurai made a game to satisfy HIS vision, and not yours? I enjoy the competitive scene, but when in the hell did the competitive scene become bigger than the game itself? This isn't like baseball or football where they try these stupid-*** contrived things that compromise the tradition of the game, this is one guy tinkering with his own friggin' creation and you're pissed because you liked it the way it was before. Fine, everyone's entitled to their own opinion. No problem. But at the end of the day you can either kick my *** at Brawl or go back to Melee and be out 50 bucks.
 

EmperorCesar

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Wow, I never knew Sakurai was such a pu$$y. If he grew up in America I'm sure he would have spent his childhood years playing "Fun Fair Positive Soccer". You know, they kind of soccer were your not allowed to score more than 3 goals in order to keep yourself from hurting anybodies feelings with your superior skill. This image speaks for itself.

 

Dhgriff9

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From my lurking it seems the problem is not, "why did Sakurai make a casual game?", it's "why did Sakurai make a casual game and at the same time try to get rid of a competitive game?"

Sakurai could have left the game as a party game where causal players can have their smash parties full of fun, and randomness, and items flying everywhere, and leave it at the same time where competitive players can have a mind game filled deep game with skill and not so much randomness.

It's not like this is an impossible feat as melee did it. I played with a big group of people a lot, and at the same time I could watch videos on youtube of people playing with no items. The two obviously could coexist. And the friend who goes to a party and beats everyone argument, probably the guy would have beat everyone anyway. I've always seen this happen no matter what kind of circumstances, someone who is a better player beats everyone at a party, regardless of if they used every glitch, advanced tech, trick or what ever else in a game or not. The better player won, it happens, advanced techs isn't always this cause. And also some advanced tech using person ruining a party seems to happen as often as bombs spawning on people, just an interesting note.

In short: It's one thing to cater to an audience, but why cater to one and go out to destroy another with most people in the catered audience don't care?
 

EmperorCesar

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Honest to God, you guys really need to STFU. How arrogant do you have to be to be pissed off that Sakurai made a game to satisfy HIS vision, and not yours? I enjoy the competitive scene, but when in the hell did the competitive scene become bigger than the game itself? This isn't like baseball or football where they try these stupid-*** contrived things that compromise the tradition of the game, this is one guy tinkering with his own friggin' creation and you're pissed because you liked it the way it was before. Fine, everyone's entitled to their own opinion. No problem. But at the end of the day you can either kick my *** at Brawl or go back to Melee and be out 50 bucks.
That lame excuse again. Nothing justifies the fact that Sakurai designed Brawl around giving the competative player the finger. That sure is a nice way to treat his biggest fans, ey?
 

DDM

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That lame excuse again. Nothing justifies the fact that Sakurai designed Brawl around giving the competative player the finger. That sure is a nice way to treat his biggest fans, ey?

Read much, a$$ hat?

http://www.1up.com/do/feature?cId=3166808

Smashing with Strangers:
Brawl's multiplayer modes finally push Nintendo deeper into online territory

Easily Nintendo's meatiest online game, Brawl packs lots of new-to-the-Wii features along with a very familiar -- and very annoying -- one: the friend code. If you want to Smash your friends online, you'll need to input codes for each buddy, even if you've previously entered his or her Wii console code. The system, according to outgoing Nintendo VP Perrin Kaplan, is designed to protect young players from contact with strangers. "Our goal is to ensure safety for everyone who plays online," she says.
And though you can play with your friends (and exchange whatever obscenities the filter will allow through customizable text-based taunts), Brawl's online matchmaking service makes players totally anonymous to one another. Producer Nate Bihldorff says that this decision is as much about making online play accessible as it is about safety. "With Anyone Mode, you're not keeping track of any stats," he says. "The idea of people coming together to play for fun being more important than people being at each other's throats for the top spot on the leaderboards -- that's definitely part of [creator] Sakurai's original vision."
While waiting for online opponents to pick their characters and settings, players can practice on a dummy, an attempt to keep the adrenaline up. Brawl also features a Spectator mode that lets you watch online matches and bet coins on the outcome-coins you can spend to unlock content. Very Nintendo.


Yeah. Lame excuse. Too effin' bad.

EDIT: By the way, to stress the point, the quote in bold is from U.S. producer Nate Bihldorff. Pretty reliable source.
 

EmperorCesar

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Read much, a$$ hat?

http://www.1up.com/do/feature?cId=3166808

Smashing with Strangers:
Brawl's multiplayer modes finally push Nintendo deeper into online territory

Easily Nintendo's meatiest online game, Brawl packs lots of new-to-the-Wii features along with a very familiar -- and very annoying -- one: the friend code. If you want to Smash your friends online, you'll need to input codes for each buddy, even if you've previously entered his or her Wii console code. The system, according to outgoing Nintendo VP Perrin Kaplan, is designed to protect young players from contact with strangers. "Our goal is to ensure safety for everyone who plays online," she says.
And though you can play with your friends (and exchange whatever obscenities the filter will allow through customizable text-based taunts), Brawl's online matchmaking service makes players totally anonymous to one another. Producer Nate Bihldorff says that this decision is as much about making online play accessible as it is about safety. "With Anyone Mode, you're not keeping track of any stats," he says. "The idea of people coming together to play for fun being more important than people being at each other's throats for the top spot on the leaderboards -- that's definitely part of [creator] Sakurai's original vision."
While waiting for online opponents to pick their characters and settings, players can practice on a dummy, an attempt to keep the adrenaline up. Brawl also features a Spectator mode that lets you watch online matches and bet coins on the outcome-coins you can spend to unlock content. Very Nintendo.


Yeah. Lame excuse. Too effin' bad.

EDIT: By the way, to stress the point, the quote in bold is from U.S. producer Nate Bihldorff. Pretty reliable source.
Why the **** are you talking about the online play? His "vision" according to the original post, was to have a game were "everybody wins", you f*king a$****.
Seriously, what argument are you trying to put out there by posting that article?

My god, people are fu!king ********...
 

TheBuzzSaw

Young Link Extraordinaire
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It upsets me generally that Nintendo seems to refuse to mature with its fans. I'm not implying that Zelda games start featuring blood and flying body parts, but they seem more interested in continually appealing to a new audience instead of catering to its fans who have remained loyal since 1985. That's not to say they cannot appeal to new fans as well, but you'd think they would have thought this through.
 

M.K

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Honest to God, you guys really need to STFU. How arrogant do you have to be to be pissed off that Sakurai made a game to satisfy HIS vision, and not yours? I enjoy the competitive scene, but when in the hell did the competitive scene become bigger than the game itself? This isn't like baseball or football where they try these stupid-*** contrived things that compromise the tradition of the game, this is one guy tinkering with his own friggin' creation and you're pissed because you liked it the way it was before. Fine, everyone's entitled to their own opinion. No problem. But at the end of the day you can either kick my *** at Brawl or go back to Melee and be out 50 bucks.
This....

I say we stop biting the hand that feeds us.
...and This.

Sakurai's message of "everyone wins" can apply to you tournament goers too, you know. If you don't feel satisfaction that you tried your best and lost to someone who gave you a good match, then you are a sore loser, plain and simple. Everyone puts themselves on some kind of high pedestal, and that's just not right.
 

Xengri

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Wow, Sakurai has a pretty ****ed up mindset.
I’m not saying that because I disagree with him, it’s just that, it sound so… idealistic. Naïve even.
I mean really, in a game were a winner is declared and, most of the random elements can be turned off (picking neutral stages, turning off items, etc), how is it possible for the more skilled player not to win?

Anyway, although this makes me have a little discontent for Sakurai, it really doesn’t worry me anymore then I was before.
If this is really what he believes about competition, then I can only assume that he thought the very same way 7 years ago when melee was released.
He probably tried to execute this same concept of “everybody wins and is equal” when he was developing Melee, and we all know how that turned out…
Who’s to say that he didn’t fail miserably this time around also?

I'll admit that it is pretty disheartening to know that the creator of the game you enjoyed playing wants to destroy the way you enjoyed playing it.
But, just cause he wants to doesn't mean he succeeded or, even can.
 

sHy)(gUy

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i agree with sakuri's vision, i mean he's making smash games for fun and brawl is fun. Its not his job to cater to a bunch of american teens and young adults forming tournaments over his game. I'd bet alot of money that japan isnt complainining at all and are appreacitive of sakuri's hard work and effort. I mean i agree that brawl has less depth than meele but at its heart brawl is just a different form of smash.
 

Samochan

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"The idea of people coming together to play for fun being more important than people being at each other's throats for the top spot on the leaderboards -- that's definitely part of [creator] Sakurai's original vision."
You know people don't come together to play and have fun, cause most players that do not care about exact timing and lag are playing online, right? >_> Whereas those that do care about timing and all, or how the match is played and the more skillfull player should win, have some competitive strive on them.

People that come to tournaments or smashfest have the most fun, cause they socialise with other people and make friends. And we're definitely not slicing each others throats cause someone is better than you. Simple fact that there is always someone better than you. I'm having the most fun in competing against a person that's skilled, rather than someone who is not as skilled as I am. And it doesn't hurt that no one whines about how good I am or how I use some glitches to win, rather they gather around and get impressed by the skill of the higher level players and are motivated to better themselves after playing them as well. All the while having a great time. You don't see Amsah trying to throttle me cause I happened to bomb-spike him with Peach on friendly match or Masashi having a grudge against Armada for 4 stocking him on tournament match. <_<
 

ADHD

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i agree with sakuri's vision, i mean he's making smash games for fun and brawl is fun. Its not his job to cater to a bunch of american teens and young adults forming tournaments over his game. I'd bet alot of money that japan isnt complainining at all and are appreacitive of sakuri's hard work and effort. I mean i agree that brawl has less depth than meele but at its heart brawl is just a different form of smash.
I'm sorry but I refuse to read hippy ****, go BS about some other crap but please not smash
 

M.K

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Yay, more of the "competitive players are the most deserving" mindset. c_c
It's the only thing you will find around here now a days.
Sickening? Yes.
Fixable? No.

Your right, since when can you compare SSB to mario party. SSB is nowhere near a party game.
You are INSANE to think that. Super Smash Bros. Brawl is the nightclub of party games. Maybe not to you, but Brawl is beast at parties. I'm sorry you can't have a good time playing with other people.
 

Razorsaw

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Feb 21, 2008
Messages
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It's the only thing you will find around here now a days.
Sickening? Yes.
Fixable? No.
It's time to trot out the same reasoning I've made since I first got here, I guess.

1. That they are a minority in a larger fandom.
2. "Scrubs" and "casuals" are more representative of the larger fanbase.
3. Competitive Players are not the reason why the franchise has endured, because if they were, it would make no economic or feasible sense involving the actual numbers.

Seriously folks. Do you HONESTLY think that among the over a million players who bought Brawl, the competitive fanbase is the one that bought most of it? Or that competitive players are the only one who'd bother to CONTINUE doing so?

It seems to me, that in making a game based on his design philosophies that sells incredibly well, that Sakurai might, GASP, actually be on to something!

In other words?

Whether or not you guys want Smash to be competitive ISN'T AN ISSUE to both SAKURAI, NINTENDO, and CONSUMERS, and once you realize that you're not the target audience and NEVER WILL BE, you'll be able to move on and find some way of coming to terms with this situation.

My GOD people, it's just a video game. There's a reason why people make fun of fandom, and it's not just because of greasy nerds in their mothers' basement. It's this inflated sense of entitlement and imbalanced sense of purpose.

You're calling a guy whose been making video games for over a decade and who created one of Nintendo's most popular characters a scrub. Get a REAL sense of priorities.

((For the record, this isn't an attack on the person I replied to, more so that his post prompted mine. I actually like what he had to say.))
 

Ichida

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 5, 2008
Messages
895
Location
Toronto
So, you admit that you basically like Brawl better because you were discouraged by being constantly beaten in Melee?
While it may not help my case, I admit that this is one reason behind my viewpoint. In my defense, I wasn't aware of the existence of advanced techniques until last January. <.<

I'll happily lose time and time again to someone who is skilled at the game and isn't an *** about it, but arrogant pricks need to be silenced.
The eternal truth of SmashBoards.
 

Linkplayer5678

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 5, 2008
Messages
117
It's time to trot out the same reasoning I've made since I first got here, I guess.

1. That they are a minority in a larger fandom.
2. "Scrubs" and "casuals" are more representative of the larger fanbase.
3. Competitive Players are not the reason why the franchise has endured, because if they were, it would make no economic or feasible sense involving the actual numbers.

Seriously folks. Do you HONESTLY think that among the over a million players who bought Brawl, the competitive fanbase is the one that bought most of it? Or that competitive players are the only one who'd bother to CONTINUE doing so?

It seems to me, that in making a game based on his design philosophies that sells incredibly well, that Sakurai might, GASP, actually be on to something!

In other words?

Whether or not you guys want Smash to be competitive ISN'T AN ISSUE to both SAKURAI, NINTENDO, and CONSUMERS, and once you realize that you're not the target audience and NEVER WILL BE, you'll be able to move on and find some way of coming to terms with this situation.

My GOD people, it's just a video game. There's a reason why people make fun of fandom, and it's not just because of greasy nerds in their mothers' basement. It's this inflated sense of entitlement and imbalanced sense of purpose.

You're calling a guy whose been making video games for over a decade and who created one of Nintendo's most popular characters a scrub. Get a REAL sense of priorities.

((For the record, this isn't an attack on the person I replied to, more so that his post prompted mine. I actually like what he had to say.))
ONWED!!!
10chars
 

M.K

Level 55
Joined
Jul 10, 2007
Messages
6,033
Location
North Carolina
It's time to trot out the same reasoning I've made since I first got here, I guess.

1. That they are a minority in a larger fandom.
2. "Scrubs" and "casuals" are more representative of the larger fanbase.
3. Competitive Players are not the reason why the franchise has endured, because if they were, it would make no economic or feasible sense involving the actual numbers.

Seriously folks. Do you HONESTLY think that among the over a million players who bought Brawl, the competitive fanbase is the one that bought most of it? Or that competitive players are the only one who'd bother to CONTINUE doing so?

It seems to me, that in making a game based on his design philosophies that sells incredibly well, that Sakurai might, GASP, actually be on to something!

In other words?

Whether or not you guys want Smash to be competitive ISN'T AN ISSUE to both SAKURAI, NINTENDO, and CONSUMERS, and once you realize that you're not the target audience and NEVER WILL BE, you'll be able to move on and find some way of coming to terms with this situation.

My GOD people, it's just a video game. There's a reason why people make fun of fandom, and it's not just because of greasy nerds in their mothers' basement. It's this inflated sense of entitlement and imbalanced sense of purpose.

You're calling a guy whose been making video games for over a decade and who created one of Nintendo's most popular characters a scrub. Get a REAL sense of priorities.

((For the record, this isn't an attack on the person I replied to, more so that his post prompted mine. I actually like what he had to say.))
I love you. Continue being amazing.

10charismatic bars.
 

Shai Hulud

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 21, 2006
Messages
1,495
Location
Oregon
Thats so true. People should stop at that line and realize this.

Also, I'm amazed. Some people think the guy is a bad game designer because he promotes FUN instead of competition. This is absurd, its mind boggling that people can think that way.

Because if you didn't know, games have been made for fun, not for competition.

People then decide to compete with it. People shouldn't even be whining about something like that. You compete or you don't, thats your choice, get in or get out of the competitive scene of Brawl. There is nothing else to argue about anymore.
I'm going to copy a post I made at allisbrawl.com in the identically titled thread so maybe people realize what the **** "competitive" actually means. The post was prompted by a ******** comparison of Brawl to chess.
-----

Brawl is the complete antithesis of chess. Chess is a game where the better player will win nearly 100% of the time, even if the skill difference is small. I'm not talking about you and your friends--I'm talking about tournament chess. Look at the USCF rating system:

* 2400 and above: Senior Master
* 2200 - 2399: Master
* 2000 - 2199: Expert
* 1800 - 1999: Class A
* 1600 - 1799: Class B
* 1400 - 1599: Class C
* 1200 - 1399: Class D
* 1000 - 1199: Class E


Assuming a player's rating is stable, one will very rarely beat a player of a higher class. It's like Melee, where you can imagine a rating system like this:

0: Total Noob, unfamiliar with the game.
1: Noob, knows what the buttons do.
2: Scrub, plays "competitively" with his friends.
3: Good scrub, beats his even scrubbier friends.
4: Semi-advanced, knows advanced techs, may occasionally attend tournaments
5: Average tournament player, rarely places, occasionally wins small tourneys
6: Good tournament player, normally places, frequently wins small tourneys,
7: Very good tournament player, almost always places, sometimes wins medium tourneys
8: Semipro, Frequently wins medium tourneys, sometimes wins large tourneys, may place high in national tourneys.
9: Pro, frequently wins large tourneys, almost always places high in national tourneys, sometimes wins national tourneys
10: Mew2King Tier, the 5 - 10 players who completely dominate national tournaments.

A player will almost never beat someone of a higher rating. Moreover, he will frequently get destroyed by better players. I'm about a 5-6 on this scale. I'm competent, go to tournaments when they're not really far away, but am on the whole not that good. If I'm playing a 7, I probably lose 90% of the time. If I'm playing an 8 I'll always lose, sometimes getting 4-stocked, mostly getting 2-3 stocked and occasionally 1-stocked. If I'm playing a 9 I'll always get 3-4 stocked. I'll get 4-stocked by 10s every time.

In Brawl this scale is not nearly so stratified. An average tournament player, like me, might occasionally place very high. I won't get destroyed even by players much better than me because it's not in the nature of the game. We can justify at most a rating system of 1 - 5: noob, scrub, tournament player, good/very good tournament player, semipro/pro. A 5 will still beat a 4, a 4 will beat a 3, etc., but there is much less distinction amongst average to good tournament players, and less distinction amongst extremely good tournament players. In the Melee rating scale, for instance, a 7 playing a 6 (in Brawl) may win only 60% of the time.

These scales I made are completely arbitrary. The important thing is not that you accept the scales, but that those dismissing criticisms of Brawl understand exactly what we mean when we say "Brawl isn't as competitive." It's not that there can't or won't be tournaments, or even that the better players won't generally win. It's that winning/losing has changed from a matter of NEAR CERTAINTY in Melee to MERE PROBABILITY in Brawl. This is what we mean when we say Game X is less competitive than Game Y. We are talking specifically about stratification of skill levels. Generally, the more stratified the competition, the more competitive a game is.

In a game like Tic Tac Toe, for instance, those not familiar with the game may think it is competitive. But the game is simple to master completely, giving rise to a class of masters, a class of amateurs, and a class of noobs. The masters will always tie each other. They will always beat or tie anyone else, because the game is that simple. This is one extreme. Continuing the board game model, the other extreme is chess, as detailed above.

Melee and Brawl are somewhere in between, Brawl tending towards the Tic Tac Toe end and Melee towards the Chess end. Brawl (at this point) seems to have a smaller "skill gap," meaning in any rating system applied to both Brawl and Melee, the subjective difference in skill between each rating level is smaller.

Melee
Noob----------------------------------------Tournament----------------------------------------Pro

Brawl
Noob----------Tournament----------Pro

You can imagine each - as a measure of the skill gap, exemplifying the total amount of talent, practice, and general experience needed to "advance to the next level."

Now, whether you accept these estimates as accurate is not really my concern. I'm just trying to quantify exactly what we mean when we say one game is less competitive than another, in order to avoid the kinds of misconceptions I've seen plaguing this thread, the chief of which are these, which I will address briefly.

"If a game has winners/losers, then it is competitive."
This is a very low standard for admission of competitiveness, including anything from Tic-Tac-Toe to flipping coins. If you held a national coin-flipping tournament, somebody would win, others would place, etc. But this is not what is meant by competitive.

"If a game has a steady tournament scene, then it is competitive."
This is probably true, but it is really a strawman. This is not what we mean when we say Brawl is not as competitive as Melee. No one is saying there won't be a tournament scene with Brawl. We are simply saying the "skill gap" is smaller and therefore results will be less consistent.
 
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