[Official SSB4 Discussion] --- Nintendo announces 2 new Smash games!

Here's what I see happening:

[Super Mario Bros.]
Mario
Luigi
Peach
Bowser
Yoshi

- The core group, no need to add to this (and putting anyone else on equal billing with the classic team seems off). If there was a new addition, it'd be Bowser Jr., but I get the feeling Sakurai likes it this way.
- Yoshi kinda counts as a part of this, so I'm putting him here.



[Wario Land/WarioWare]
Wario
Captain Syrup/Mona - decent chance, Mona more likely due to Sakurai probably not knowing anything about Wario Land

- Seems like Sakurai is completely unfamiliar with Wario Land, so my guess is:
1. he takes Mona because of WarioWare's popularity
2. he takes Captain Syrup on the basis that Mona fighting is "out of character" like Animal Crossing, and actually recognizes Wario Land this time around
3. he takes neither because A) he doesn't feel the series is that popular/recognizable or B) he doesn't think Mona should fight and it turns out he's never heard of Captain Syrup



[Donkey Kong]
Donkey Kong
Diddy Kong
Dixie Kong - decent chance, but probably not as likely as K. Rool
King K. Rool - excellent chance, if he's not in we probably get at least Dixie

- Could potentially get both Dixie and K. Rool (DK's sales/fame rival that of Zelda's), but Sakurai seems to have it in for DK. It took him until Brawl just to add Diddy, despite being on par with Zelda for sales and popularity, so I'm not expecting much.



[Legend of Zelda]
Link
Zelda
Sheik
Ganondorf
Toon Link

- Same situation as Mario: we have the core group of Link, Zelda, and Ganon, with Zelda having her transformation into Sheik and the alternate version of Link (which Sakurai mentioned as being pretty important). Most likely newcomer would be Tingle, but I think Sakurai likes keeping it as the original Triforce team.



[Metroid]
Samus
Zero Suit Samus
Ridley - excellent chance, seems to hinge on whether Sakurai can make him work as a regular fighter instead of a boss

- Not much else to say, Sakurai realizes how important Ridley is but even he admits that designing him may be tricky, so it comes down to how well he actually ends up working as a character. I personally think he'll make it.



[Kirby]
Kirby
Meta Knight
King Dedede

- What's your favorite Kirby power? Mine's chocolate!



[Star Fox]
Fox
Falco
Wolf

- Some of you would prefer getting rid of Wolf, but I think he fits in pretty well (though I don't doubt that he has a chance of not returning); most likely newcomer would be Krystal, but there's no real reason to just drop Wolf for Krystal, and four is too much.



[Pokemon]
Pikachu
Pokemon Trainer:
-Squirtle
-Ivysaur
-Charizard
Jigglypuff
Mewtwo/New Pokemon - keep in mind Mewtwo was supposed to be in Brawl, also he probably beats out any currently existing Pokemon
Lucario

- A lot of people have this misguided notion that "repping all the gens" is important, though it's obviously not, especially when there's Pokeballs and stages to provide dozens of cameos anyway.
- The Pokemon Trainer will definately stay, and I feel like Sakurai doesn't wanna mess with his Pokemon since that's three new movesets for no real reason. There won't be an additional Pokemon Trainer, it's too much to balance and it takes away from what makes PT unique in the first place.
- Jiggs will probably stay.
- If we get any "new gen rep", there will only be one, and it may result in no Lucario or Mewtwo (though it'd likely be stylized after them if that happens); here's what will probably happen:
1. we get a new Pokemon that functions like Mewtwo/Lucario
2. we get a new (unique) Pokemon and keep Lucario
3. we get Mewtwo and Lucario because all of the hot new Pokemon are legendary space whales and work better as stages/Pokeballs, or alternatively he just really really wants Mewtwo and Lucario to stay



[F-Zero]
Captain Falcon
Samurai Goroh - very likely newcomer, unless Sakurai keeps hating on F-Zero
Black Shadow - not too likely, but I'm not ruling him out since Sakurai may decide to bump up the series and/or give Ganon a sword

- Samurai Goroh takes precedence over Black Shadow for two reasons: 1) he's been more prominent in Smash thus far and 2) Sakurai probably doesn't care about the Ganon-sword thing.
- If Star Fox can have 2 reps with 2 games in Melee, or 3 reps with 5 games in Brawl, surely F-Zero can have 3 reps with 6 games and an anime, right? I get the feeling Sakurai doesn't like F-Zero much, but that's just me. Anyway, I like the whole "The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly" thing going on here, so here's hoping.



[Mother/EarthBound]
Ness
Lucas
Claus/Porky - not too likely, but I wasn't expecting Lucas either, so maybe he'll pull a Star Fox and add a 3rd?

- Claus is supposedly more popular with Mother fans, but Porky is obviously at least KNOWN by Smash fans; either one works, but if I had to guess, Sakurai would take Claus.
- $5 says that if Porky's in, he rides his EarthBound spider mech instead of the Mother 3 one.



[Fire Emblem]
Marth
Roy/New Lord - exact same situation as Mewtwo: supposed to be in Brawl, probably beats out any currently existing Lord, etc.
Ike

- I really doubt Ike is going anywhere, but I don't deny the possibility that he doesn't return
- Since Sakurai didn't mind the possibility of having three Lords in one game (and they're all male, sword-weilding main characters from their own continents), I expect him to add someone for the next game:
1. one of the next couple FE games has a cool new guy that Sakurai thinks belongs in Smash Bros.
2. there aren't any new Lords, Sakurai doesn't like any of the new Lords, or Sakurai otherwise feels compelled to bring back Roy



[Retro Series]
Ice Climbers
Pit
Mr. Game & Watch
R.O.B.

- I'm not expecting any new retro series to be here; some people seem to think it's a requirement that Sakurai digs up one or two classic series and fit them in the game, but he's also shot down most of the ones we have left for being way too obscure or not really working as characters too well (note that I don't consider Punch-Out!! to be retro).



[Single Series]
Olimar
Little Mac - does anyone here really doubt his chances of making it in?
Isaac - Golden Sun DS seems to be a bigger deal than any of the below series, so I think Isaac has a good chance
(New series character) - Sin & Punishment, Nintendo Wars, Custom Robo, Starfy, some new series that hasn't debuted yet, I don't know

- Olimar isn't going anywhere.
- Everyone agrees that Mac is extremely likely, possibly the most likely newcomer ($5 says he's in the SSB4 debut trailer). The guy seriously has nothing against his chances of making it in.
- I personally figure there will be two new series to appear alongside Punch-Out!!, one of them probably being Golden Sun, the other a toss-up between Sin & Punishment, Nintendo Wars, Custom Robo, Starfy, etc.; I really can't make any judgment here (and even on GS, I'm not totally sure), so... yeah.



[Third Party Series]
Snake
Sonic
Mega Man - most likely 3rd party, Capcom is on good terms with Nintendo and both Sakurai and Inafune have mentioned interest

- The most uncertain category. We don't know if Konami and Sega are going to renew the deals with Snake and Sonic, and we don't really know what any of the companies are thinking, but I wouldn't be too suprised to see a potential 4th guy here, probably from Namco (and almost definately not from Square-Enix).

Yosi counts as his own series. Thats how Sakurai counts it, so maybe thats how it should really be. So remove Yoshi and we have a big hole i the Mario series where we can insert Bowser Jr. or Toad, either would work in my opinion.

WarioWare doesn't have great chances of getting a new rep. Sure they have chances, but honestly, you have to admit its not going to happen.

Legend of Zelda is a big enough series to get a new rep, the two most likely candidates include Tingle and Toon Zelda. Why wouldn't Sakurai put in a another rep? Trust me, there is a very good chance of a new Legend of Zelda rep.

Three F-Zero reps? No. We'll be lucky to get one, and if we do its going to end up being Samurai Goroh.

Claus/Porky; like you said, not very likely. Like F-Zero, we'll be lucky to get a new rep. But if we do, there are tons of other characters more deserving than Claus and Porky including Jeff, Paula, Poo, Flint, Kumatora, and Duster.

Everything else seems fairly reasonable. One of the better Pokemon rep sets I've seen in a while.

Yoshi is... well, he's his owns series and he's part of the Mario series as well. The characters and enemies in his games appear in the Mario games as well, whereas DK and Wario stand by themselves. Look at the Yoshi's Island Melee stage, it's clearly a Mario game despite "belonging" to Yoshi.

Anyway I'm not factoring Yoshi's individuality when I assume Mario won't get any new characters. It's really just that Mario has two real candidates: Toad (one of my favorite characters, but lacks any character depth or unique abilities despite being from the NES era) and Bowser Jr. (who does appear in several of the most recent main titles, but seems to be about as prominent as the Koopalings at best). Maybe Sakurai will suprise me, but it seems like he doesn't care for either of these two, and that he feels the series is best represented by the original cast.


No, I don't feel that Wario has "great" chances, but I do feel it's better than Bowser Jr. joining the Mario crew. This is a series that A) has consistently sold very well since it started 15 years ago, B) is chock full of zany characters, and C) does it without relying on Mario, just like Donkey Kong. The reason why the chances aren't too great is because, just like Donkey Kong, Sakurai seems to barely notice Wario. I mentioned that it's probably just Wario Land he doesn't notice, since Brawl only captures the WarioWare aspect of his series (which obviously has an effect, since even you refer to it exclusively as WarioWare, even counting Captain Syrup). That would probably also explain his absence in Melee.

Basically, if the WarioWare side of things continues to grow (and it will), he'll eventually have to acknowledge it. I just hope the next game doesn't completely disregard the Wario Land side.


No, Zelda is fine. It has the same sales figures and general popularity as Donkey Kong (which may have actually outsold Zelda back in 2001). It doesn't even remotely compare to Mario or Pokemon, both of which absolutely dwarf everything else in the entire medium of video games. If anything, Donkey Kong needs to be brought up to its level, since the two are on par with each other.


Oh, definately Samurai Goroh, but the only reason I'm not ruling out both is because there seems to be a big push for Black Shadow as well, even if it's not for the best reason (Ganon). Well, that and because Star Fox makes no sense and it's messing with my Sakurai-logic.


Why the other party members from Mother? Porky has the distinction of actually being in two Mother games, the only other characters to do so being Giygas and Dr. Andonuts (and we know how likely they are). Smash fans unfamiliar with Mother will probably only recognize him or Jeff. Claus is also VERY popular and generally all over the place in the game. Even the main theme's lyrics are about him. Plus I really doubt anyone who played the game didn't care about Claus by the time it was over. The other party members? Let's not forget where Ness and Lucas got their moves...


And uh, that's it.

@ Spydr Enzo: Mewtwo's chances are much better than you think, since he was left out of Brawl due to time consraints and nothing else. If we were to go on popularity in Japan, Mewtwo is 3rd to Charizard and Pikachu... Lucario is somewhere in the 40's slot by this point lol...

On Mario Reps:

I think Rosalina is a bit of a Dark Horse here. I say this because some of the other characters have factors that hurt them. For example, we've been seeing a lot of individual Toads lately. This does not help Toad. This hurts Toad, because it promotes the idea that Toad is a species and not a character. Bowser Jr. has been replaced by the Koopalings in NSMB Wii. Paper Mario, thus far, has only had one game per console. Depending on when SSB4 comes out, it may have been a long time since a Paper Mario game was made (which would hurt Paper Maario).

Her chances may not be as good as theirs, but she's gaining.

The odds of a new Warioware rep are remote. Much worse than Bowser Jr.'s. Sure Warioware has a lot of characters, but nonne of tham are very memorable, they do't do much that can be turned into a moveset, and they're not very popular. Whereas Bowser Jr. would be fairly easy to make a moveset for, is more memorable, and is more popular.

WarioWare may grow, but Wario alone remains the face of the series and its only popular character.

DK should not be on par with Zelda because its more recent games are bad, and because the only characters it can really add are Dixie and K.Rool. Zelda has more room for expansion. (Tingle, Toon Zelda, Tetra, Wolf Link/Midna).

Mewtwo wasn't just left out for time constraints...he was declined in favor of Jigglypuff. Perhaps if there was more time to add five reps to other series such as Mario and Zelda, then Mewtwo could have been in, but that's unlikely as it is, given how much generation 1 favoratism woud have been displayed. Given that the series should keep on progressing instead of regressing, the next new rep form them should be from the currently newest generation (whatever that may be) and not going back to a character no one even cared about until he was cut.

No-one cared about Mewtwo until he was cut because everybody took it for granted that he wouldn't be cut.

Oh, and for Enzo's list up there...

Option 5 for Mario (6)

Option ??? for DK (no new reps. 8)

Option 1 for Zelda (13)

Option 2 for Metroid (15)

Option 1 for Yoshi (16)

Option 1 for Kirby (19)

Option ??? for SF (Really I have no idea here. It could be Fox, Krystal, Wolf or Fox Falco Krystal, or Fox Falco Wolf for all I know. I really can't think of how this will play out. Still only 3 reps total, so... 22)

Option 1 for Pokemon (Darkrai gets new generation spot if for some weird insane reason there is no new Pokemon generation by the time of SSB4... 25)

Option 2 for F-Zero (27)

Option 1 for Mother (29)

Option 1a/1b for Fire Emblem (Basically if there is no new game, give it to Micaiah, OR if the new rep is too simmilar to Marth and Ike, in which case, Ike could be in trouble. 32)

Option 2 for Wario (35)

Option 1 for Pikmin (36)

Option ??? for retros (Umm...the one with Little Mac and all the other retro characters from Brawl? Heck, I'd be hesitant to call Mac Retro right now. Anyways, 41)

Option 1d for retro (44)


Others (I'd say a GS rep, a AW rep, Lip, Captain Rainbow, and a Mii to throw everything a bit off, and bring up the list to 50 spots. Golden Sun doesn't get Isaac in my mind quite yet, since the new game doesn't star him, and the AW rep is still up in the air I think given the new progression of the series, though I guess if it had to be decided now, it'd be Andy, just like how Isaac would be chosen right now if it had to be decided.)

n88_2004 said:

On Mario Reps:

I think Rosalina is a bit of a Dark Horse here. I say this because some of the other characters have factors that hurt them. For example, we've been seeing a lot of individual Toads lately. This does not help Toad. This hurts Toad, because it promotes the idea that Toad is a species and not a character. Bowser Jr. has been replaced by the Koopalings in NSMB Wii. Paper Mario, thus far, has only had one game per console. Depending on when SSB4 comes out, it may have been a long time since a Paper Mario game was made (which would hurt Paper Maario).

Her chances may not be as good as theirs, but she's gaining.

Click to expand...

Rosalina won't be coming back in any new Mario games (except maybe Galaxy 2). Bowser Jr. is probably going to appear in every non-RPG Mario game from here on out. I don't like the kid, but you can't deny that he's the #1 choice for a new Mario character (which I still doubt will happen). Also there's a very good chance he'll appear in NSMB Wii or Galaxy 2, if not both.

n88_2004 said:

The odds of a new Warioware rep are remote. Much worse than Bowser Jr.'s. Sure Warioware has a lot of characters, but nonne of tham are very memorable, they do't do much that can be turned into a moveset, and they're not very popular. Whereas Bowser Jr. would be fairly easy to make a moveset for, is more memorable, and is more popular.

WarioWare may grow, but Wario alone remains the face of the series and its only popular character.

Click to expand...

Who are you to decide what makes a character memorable or popular? The majority of Wario Land fans love Captain Syrup and WarioWare is pretty much built on its cast. For a rising series that currently sells more than Metroid, that should carry some weight. The only reason why I suggest that a Wario series character has a better chance than Bowser Jr. is because I don't think Sakurai will add any new Mario characters. We already have all the key players.

Also, sorta off-topic, here's a neat little video of Sakurai playing the newest WarioWare game:
http://touch-ds.jp/mfs/st106/mft2.html

n88_2004 said:

DK should not be on par with Zelda because its more recent games are bad, and because the only characters it can really add are Dixie and K.Rool. Zelda has more room for expansion. (Tingle, Toon Zelda, Tetra, Wolf Link/Midna).

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Did you play Jungle Beat? King of Swing? Jungle Climber? The only bad DK game lately was Barrel Blast, the rest were all good games. They didn't sell as well as DKC, but most of these still sold well.

Zelda is fine with the characters it has, just like Mario. We don't need one shots or variations on existing characters. Tingle would be fine, but I'm pretty sure Sakurai would rather keep the focus on the original characters instead. On the other hand, is there anything inherently wrong with DK gaining its main villian and one of its main characters? Remember, this is a series that outsold Zelda back in 2001 and is still widely considered one of the best franchises in history.

Mario
The 1st possibility seems the most likely. Alternatively, I would probably choose 4th possibility.

DK
2nd possibility. Alternatively, the 5th possibility.

Zelda
Same as Mario. Alternatively, the 5th possibility.

Metroid
2nd possibility, of course.

Yoshi
The 1st possibility. Alternatively, the 2b possibility.

Kirby
*Whistles*

StarFox
2nd possibility. Alternatively, the 1st possibility.

Pokemon
The 5th possibility.

F-Zero
2nd possibility. Alternatively, I wouldn't mind if both Samurai Goroh and Black Shadow are included.

Mother
The 1st possibility. Alternatively, Ninten could be added as a character instead of offsetting Earthbound or Mother 3 by giving either one a second rep.

Fire Emblem
The 1st possibility

Warioware
From your possibilities, the 2nd. However, I can see the WarioWare franchise getting two reps [Mona and Jimmy]. Also, Captain Syrup isn't from WarioWare, IIRC.

Pikmin
The 1st possibility.

Retro
2nd possibility.

WTF Char.
Sukapon

Third Party
The 1d possibility. Alternatively, the 1f possibility.

New Series
You forgot Sin & Punishment, Densetsu no Stafy (The Legendary Starfy), Panel de Pon (Puzzle League), and even Mii.

About the Mii, I'm thinking of a mode, similar to Stage Builder, where you create you own Smasher using your Mii as a basis. You can purchase content (e.g. costumes, accessories, specials, etc) through mini-games like the slot machine in Melee (think casino or arcade games), unlock content by completing certain tasks, and there would be DLC.

What does all this "1st, 2nd" possibility mean?

Its in refference to Enzo's long post about a page back about different possibilities within franchises for character inclusion in the next Smash game.

Mewtwo confirmed for Heart Gold/Soul Silver. (Kanto isn't confirmed though)
Chances for SSB4 just risen 10%.

I just wish they get rid of Jiggs. Shes just a filler character.
And Mewtwo needs a grapple grab effect

Neckbeard Torterra said:

Mewtwo confirmed for Heart Gold/Soul Silver. (Kanto isn't confirmed though)
Chances for SSB4 just risen 10%.

I just wish they get rid of Jiggs. Shes just a filler character.
And Mewtwo needs a grapple grab effect

Click to expand...

Kanto had been confirmed... For awhile now too.

Nobody knows though if Mewtwo has been included or not, but judging by the fact that they are adding so many legendary Pokémon in this version it might not be too hard to believe that they open up the Cerulean Cave again.

Starphoenix said:

Kanto had been confirmed... For awhile now too.

Nobody knows though if Mewtwo has been included or not, but judging by the fact that they are adding so many legendary Pokémon in this version it might not be too hard to believe that they open up the Cerulean Cave again.

Click to expand...

I just read that Mewtwo is confirmed but Kanto isn't.
Corocoro today.

ToiseOfChoice said:

Rosalina won't be coming back in any new Mario games (except maybe Galaxy 2). Bowser Jr. is probably going to appear in every non-RPG Mario game from here on out. I don't like the kid, but you can't deny that he's the #1 choice for a new Mario character (which I still doubt will happen). Also there's a very good chance he'll appear in NSMB Wii or Galaxy 2, if not both.



Who are you to decide what makes a character memorable or popular? The majority of Wario Land fans love Captain Syrup and WarioWare is pretty much built on its cast. For a rising series that currently sells more than Metroid, that should carry some weight. The only reason why I suggest that a Wario series character has a better chance than Bowser Jr. is because I don't think Sakurai will add any new Mario characters. We already have all the key players.

Also, sorta off-topic, here's a neat little video of Sakurai playing the newest WarioWare game:
http://touch-ds.jp/mfs/st106/mft2.html


Did you play Jungle Beat? King of Swing? Jungle Climber? The only bad DK game lately was Barrel Blast, the rest were all good games. They didn't sell as well as DKC, but most of these still sold well.

Zelda is fine with the characters it has, just like Mario. We don't need one shots or variations on existing characters. Tingle would be fine, but I'm pretty sure Sakurai would rather keep the focus on the original characters instead. On the other hand, is there anything inherently wrong with DK gaining its main villian and one of its main characters? Remember, this is a series that outsold Zelda back in 2001 and is still widely considered one of the best franchises in history.

Click to expand...

I was trying to say that Rosalina has better chances than it might seem. She still doesn't have nearly as good a chance as Bowser Jr. I previuously though that she would go the way of Daisy and become a spin-off character, but with Galaxy 2 coming out so soon, there's a chancee that she'll become a recurring character.


I was a little harsh on the Wario characters. I can't speak for Captain Syrup (never played Wario Land). What I was trying to say about the WarioWare characters (I did a bad job of this) was that no-one stands above the rest as the best candidate for Smash,although on second thought, I think Ashley would do nicely.

As for the DK vs Zelda thing, I meant that DK wasn't doing as well as he used to, which you mentioned in your post. I would like to see something like this from DK/Zelda

DK
Donkey Kong
Diddy Kong/Dixie Kong
King K. Rool

Legend of Zelda
Link
Zelda/Sheik
Tingle
Ganondorf
Toon Link

Toon Zelda will probably be in there, but I'm not really rooting for that.

Mewtwo being in HG/SS doesn't really improve his chances, since technically all current Pokemon can be in that game. Perhaps if he has a major role, rather than just being "herp derp, im in secret cave" then his chances could increase, but if anything HG/SS would mean the increased chances of a Gen 2 Pokemon. Of course, no one's really betting on that, since there should be another Pokemon generation or two inbetween now and SSB4 where we will certainly have a new pottential Pokemon.

Pieman0920 said:

Mewtwo being in HG/SS doesn't really improve his chances, since technically all current Pokemon can be in that game. Perhaps if he has a major role, rather than just being "herp derp, im in secret cave" then his chances could increase, but if anything HG/SS would mean the increased chances of a Gen 2 Pokemon. Of course, no one's really betting on that, since there should be another Pokemon generation or two inbetween now and SSB4 where we will certainly have a new pottential Pokemon.

Click to expand...

This. Truth be told, I really don't want Mewtwo to come back because I'd rather see someone who hasn't been in Smash Bros yet. Even if he was given an overhaul like Mr. Game and Watch did from Melee to Brawl, he'd still more than likely have the crappy, uninspired moveset. Seriously, Sakurai's idea of giving Ganondorf his sword was making it a taunt; do you really think they would take the time to completely redo Mewtwo? If anything, I'd rather see him come back as a boss because at least then it'd be a lot more likely that he'd be done differently.

Fatmanonice said:

Not really, truth be told. If anything, the franchises that are helped the most by this are Fire Emblem and Pokemon. Look at Brawl, for example, the only characters that weren't around when Melee came out were Lucario and Ike.

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And Lucas, Toon Link and Zero Suit Samus. Also, Pikmin came out right before Melee in Japan. It came out after Melee in the western world.

Also, who keeps bringing up Louie? Honestly, why intentionally throw in a character that would be doomed to be a Luigified clone at best? Actually, with Louie, I wouldn't even go that far because there are no true differences between him and Olimar in the games. When it comes to talking about the roster, let's try our best to avoid talking about characters who are extremely similar to each other, shall we?

Click to expand...

I will say that if the characters are wanted, they will probably get in. Were another Pikmin game made, and a Pikmin character became demanded, then we may see one. Note that Lucas and Wolf were popular over in the land of the rising sun and they ended up being Ness and Fox respectively. It depends on what goes down.

MARIO ~ The series is the top-series of Nintendo, most games and most sales, Mario is the mascot of Nintendo and his games are known by all, even non-gamers. Why wouldn't Mario get a new rep if the series is so deserving of one? Bowser Jr. and Toad have awesome chances, we still don't know if Bowser Jr. is in any of he two upcoming games, but I'm sure he will be. Paper Mario has a chance, be it extremely low compared to Toad and Bowser Jr. They'll get a new rep, trust me, and it will be either of the three I just mentioned.

DONKEY KONG ~ Like someone mentioned, Donkey Kong sold better than Zelda games back in the Donkey Kong Country days and the series is still considered one of the best in history. Plus, it is still very popular. I am positive we will get a new rep whether it be Dixie or King K. Rool.

LEGEND OF ZELDA ~ Like Mario, Legend of Zelda is one of the best-selling series and popular game series from Nintendo. Not getting anew rep in honor of all their new hit games or future games is completely ridiculous and just won't happen. I hate to admit it, but Tingle is a good choice for a new SSB4 rep, with Toon Zelda close behind. Nevertheless we will get one, trust me.

POKEMON ~ This Mewtwo discussion is getting real annoying. People repeating themselves over and over again. Anyway, Mewtwo has his chances, I admit, but now its your turn to face the fact that while he does have his chances, they aren't very good. Assuming Sakurai will try to limit the character slots at 5 for each series (don't want to over-include some series, which is very easy to do with Pokemon), the chances of seeing Mewtwo re extremely low. However, if Sakurai for some reason decides to go with more than 5 slots, we have a better chance of seeing Mewtwo, although the chances are still low.

F-ZERO ~ Anything can happen with the series, but the LAST thing that will happen is them getting 3 reps. Seriously, the series is dead, or at least in a small hiatus. They could make a comeback like Metroid did on the Gamecube, but until then even one F-Zero rep seems unlikely. But if we do, It'll be Samurai Goroh (thanks people fo supporting my Samurai Goroh argument, I thought I was the only one who thought he had chances over Black Shadow!).

EARTHBOUND (MOTHER)
Claus is a possibility. He is very popular and vital to the series, but he would be the same EXACT thing as Lucas, who is already mostly a clone of Ness. And he won't be replacing Lucas either, Lucas is the main character that you actually play as. As for Porky, I don't think that is going to happen. Sure he was in two games, but still his chances are low, there are more deserving people. And I didn't put Ninten up there for two reasons. First of all, Sakurai doesn't seem interested in MOTHER probably because its Japanese Only (officialy). All it ever got was a few songs, and maybe a sticker or two. Maybe Lucas's inclusion boosts his chances but still not likely. Also, he is virtually the same exact thing as Ness. He even looks exactly the same.

Claus is already a color scheme for Lucas and Ninten could easily become an alternate for Ness, so I wouldn't pick either of them for a new rep. Of course, I don't know much about Mother games, so I may be wrong.

Neckbeard Torterra said:

I just read that Mewtwo is confirmed but Kanto isn't.
Corocoro today.

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Well thats cool, guess that means Heart Gold (since I have already had Silver before) is a must buy now.

Fatmanonice said:

This. Truth be told, I really don't want Mewtwo to come back because I'd rather see someone who hasn't been in Smash Bros yet. Even if he was given an overhaul like Mr. Game and Watch did from Melee to Brawl, he'd still more than likely have the crappy, uninspired moveset. Seriously, Sakurai's idea of giving Ganondorf his sword was making it a taunt; do you really think they would take the time to completely redo Mewtwo? If anything, I'd rather see him come back as a boss because at least then it'd be a lot more likely that he'd be done differently.

Click to expand...

No one is asking for him to be completely redone, his moveset was fine as it was. He was needing some physic changes and tweaks, substantially, but not any more daunting of a task than any of the other characters.

Spydr Enzo said:

DONKEY KONG ~ Like someone mentioned, Donkey Kong sold better than Zelda games back in the Donkey Kong Country days and the series is still considered one of the best in history. Plus, it is still very popular. I am positive we will get a new rep whether it be Dixie or King K. Rool.

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But the DKC series was from over a decade ago. It doesn't matter that much now, and shouldn't be the reason why it gets any new reps. What matters is where the series is currently, and as it is, its not all that spectacular. Diddy at this point is really all the series needs at this point, unless it starts to return to what it used to be like.

Spydr Enzo said:

Also, he is virtually the same exact thing as Ness. He even looks exactly the same.

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n88_2004 said:

Claus is already a color scheme for Lucas and Ninten could easily become an alternate for Ness, so I wouldn't pick either of them for a new rep. Of course, I don't know much about Mother games, so I may be wrong.

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It's not like Ninten couldn't get re-designed (see Pit) or something. As for Claus, I think whoever suggested him is referring to the Masked Man, which if that's the case, I'd rather have him as a mini-boss.

Neckbeard Torterra said:

I just read that Mewtwo is confirmed but Kanto isn't.
Corocoro today.

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Day 1 purchase confirmed.

I want Pichu and Mewtwo back ;_;

Pieman0920 said:

But the DKC series was from over a decade ago. It doesn't matter that much now, and shouldn't be the reason why it gets any new reps. What matters is where the series is currently, and as it is, its not all that spectacular. Diddy at this point is really all the series needs at this point, unless it starts to return to what it used to be like.

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It really doesn't matter if the games were from over a decade ago. Thats not a very good argument, Sakurai never said he wouldn't include characters in this situation. I mean, look at retro characters. Do you think any 10-year old playing Brawl would have any idea who the Ice Climbers were? Or Pit, or R.O.B. or Game & Watch? They're games weren't even that popular back then! Sure they were more popular than most...

Now if Sakurai can still add retro characters, what's your reasoning for why Sakurai can't add characters from games that are over a decade old? I mean what's the difference? Being main characters of their own series doesn't really apply here, considering they're over 20 years old and only had one game as opposed to Donkey Kong Country which had a lot more popularity, is only a bit over 10 years old and has had more than one game, plus with more spin off series to follow.

The whole TIME argument is stupid. Sakurai can add minor characters that weren't even that popular and are over 20 years old, but he can't add characters that originated in one of the most popular game series in history and is only over 10 years old? ...I don't get it.

The retro characters point doesn't really stand though, as none of them have two characters with people suggesting three. And there's nothing wrong with adding in characters who started out over 10 years ago, but I'm just saying that the series doesn't deserve more characters now because its last popular (and generally considered good) games are over a decade old. Its popularity in the past doesn't warent it to get new characters in the present, and using retro characters as citation for why there could be more repsentation of these games doesn't really cut it, due to it being a different situation. Maybe if the Donkey Kong series cleans up its act, then it may be a good idea to give it a third rep, but as it stands, that's not the case now.

Pieman0920 said:

The retro characters point doesn't really stand though, as none of them have two characters with people suggesting three. And there's nothing wrong with adding in characters who started out over 10 years ago, but I'm just saying that the series doesn't deserve more characters now because its last popular (and generally considered good) games are over a decade old. Its popularity in the past doesn't warent it to get new characters in the present, and using retro characters as citation for why there could be more repsentation of these games doesn't really cut it, due to it being a different situation. Maybe if the Donkey Kong series cleans up its act, then it may be a good idea to give it a third rep, but as it stands, that's not the case now.

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Again with the reps.

Look, if someone is legitimately popular (and not "oh oh, he;s popular right guys") then they will probably get it. This is why Starfox has three characters and Donkey Kong has two. If people like the character, Sakurai will add it. Age doesn't matter. That means new nor old characters have an advantage on each other.

SmashChu said:

Look, if someone is legitimately popular (and not "oh oh, he;s popular right guys") then they will probably get it. This is why Starfox has three characters and Donkey Kong has two. If people like the character, Sakurai will add it. Age doesn't matter. That means new nor old characters have an advantage on each other.

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This. Seriously, stop using reps as a reasoning for characters - I used to, but it's really really stupid. I think I just now got that today.

shadow needs to be a playable char not just a dumb assist trophy
i also think all chars should have more than 1 final smash

SmashChu said:

Again with the reps.

Look, if someone is legitimately popular (and not "oh oh, he;s popular right guys") then they will probably get it. This is why Starfox has three characters and Donkey Kong has two. If people like the character, Sakurai will add it. Age doesn't matter. That means new nor old characters have an advantage on each other.

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This is probably right. Look at F-Zero and Starfox. Is Starfox three times as popular as F-Zero? Not necessarily. It just has more popular characters and viable reps.

Also, Special Achievement! This thread hit page 1337!

i have a thread in brawl generall discussion about new char

dose any one know if nintendo is officially making another smash i know it will probably happen but is it official?

not yet, bud.

Does anyone not see Midna, in her human form, not making it? I think she is a possible addition to SSB4.

Despite being cut in Brawl, I believe that Roy could possibly make a re-appearance, and show his fans he still loves them. Roy was a very popular character, and was used pretty often, and has been missed greatly.

For Pokemon, I don't see Mewtwo coming back, simply because he was a bonus, like Pichu, and Lucario won't be making it back, either. I think they'll replace Lucario with a 4th gen pokemon and add another 4th gen to keep the flow going like they did from SSB64 to SSBB.

ex:
Pikachu, Jigglypuff = SSB64
Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Mewtwo, Pichu = SSBM
Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Lucario, Pokemon Trainer = SSBB

Pokemon Trainer may stay, but his pokemon roster will change, to a diferent set of starter pokemon.

I believe Metroid may have a new rep, and it would come in the form of Dark Samus, who is more different from Samus than most people would think, especially since she doesn't come out of her suit to become Zero-Suit, who counts as a Metroid rep, by the way.

I believe that Waluigi should become a playable character, since his brother became one, and since he's pretty popular among the fans of Nintendo. He would make a great character, and seeing as how Wario's moveset wasn't polar opposite to Mario's I think it would work out for the best.

Dream Character:

My hopes wishes, and dreams go to Viewtiful Joe. I believe he would make an epic little counterpart to Captain Falcon, aside from all of his VFX powers. Viewtiful Joe even had a spinoff called Viewtiful Joe: Red Hot Rumble, which was a mini-game compared to Melee, but held some Melee qualities, aside from the health bar. It was fun, and showed how well, Viewtiful Joe would work in a Smash Bros setting.

Weight: Heavy-Light - Middleweight

Strength: Middleweight - Heavy-Middleweight

Movement Speed: A little slower than Captain Falcon

Sacr3d S3raph1m said:

Does anyone not see Midna, in her human form, not making it? I think she is a possible addition to SSB4.

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No <- this coming from a big proponent of hers when Brawl was in development. I really wanted Imp Midna to be playable in Brawl before, but I'm on the Tingle bandwagon now. He just seems much more likely.

For Pokemon, I don't see Mewtwo coming back, simply because he was a bonus

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The hell does this even mean? What does that make Roy, then?

I think they'll replace Lucario with a 4th gen pokemon and add another 4th gen to keep the flow going like they did from SSB64 to SSBB.

ex:
Pikachu, Jigglypuff = SSB64
Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Mewtwo, Pichu = SSBM
Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Lucario, Pokemon Trainer = SSBB

Pokemon Trainer may stay, but his pokemon roster will change, to a diferent set of starter pokemon.

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Franky, I don't think anyone should be cut or replace, IMO. I don't want to mess with PT either, but meh, if it's demanded, then so be it.

I believe Metroid may have a new rep, and it would come in the form of Dark Samus, who is more different from Samus than most people would think, especially since she doesn't come out of her suit to become Zero-Suit, who counts as a Metroid rep, by the way.

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I'd say she's boss material.

I believe that Waluigi should become a playable character, since his brother became one, and since he's pretty popular among the fans of Nintendo. He would make a great character, and seeing as how Wario's moveset wasn't polar opposite to Mario's I think it would work out for the best.

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Cat = Waluigi
House = SSB4 Roster

Dream Character:

My hopes wishes, and dreams go to Viewtiful Joe. I believe he would make an epic little counterpart to Captain Falcon, aside from all of his VFX powers. Viewtiful Joe even had a spinoff called Viewtiful Joe: Red Hot Rumble, which was a mini-game compared to Melee, but held some Melee qualities, aside from the health bar. It was fun, and showed how well, Viewtiful Joe would work in a Smash Bros setting.

Weight: Heavy-Light - Middleweight

Strength: Middleweight - Heavy-Middleweight

Movement Speed: A little slower than Captain Falcon

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So much win potential right here. I know he won't get in before MegaMan, but Viewtiful Joe is sheer awesome.

They really need to make a Nintendo vs Capcom game.

@Sacr3ed S3raph1m(WOW, that's a name)

I find it funny how you say you want Roy, but think that M2 was a bonus. WHEN IN FACT, ROY WAS ONLY IN TO PROMOTE FE6. also, it's his popularity in FE that beats his popularity in Melee- and he's one of the least liked, actually(his dad is more popular).

also, Lucario IS the 4th gen Pokemon >_<, but that could be just a typo, so no biggie. I'm also questioning if there will even be a 5th gen, as there are little to no hints of one.

I am behind you on having having D. Samus, and Waluigi is not really seeable.

Joe would kick ***....but too bad Rockman has the best chance of getting in. oh well, there is Tatsunoko vs. Capcom for Wii....

@ScoobyCafe

yes, a Nintendo/Capcom crossover would be epic.

too bad Namco did it first > : (

Pieman0920 said:

The retro characters point doesn't really stand though, as none of them have two characters with people suggesting three. And there's nothing wrong with adding in characters who started out over 10 years ago, but I'm just saying that the series doesn't deserve more characters now because its last popular (and generally considered good) games are over a decade old. Its popularity in the past doesn't warent it to get new characters in the present, and using retro characters as citation for why there could be more repsentation of these games doesn't really cut it, due to it being a different situation. Maybe if the Star Fox series cleans up its act, then it may be a good idea to give it a third rep, but as it stands, that's not the case now.

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Look how that whole paragraph turns around, especially if you put it in pre-Brawl context. Keep in mind Star Fox and Star Fox 64 were the only games at the time of Melee's release, yet they get Falco. And despite all of Star Fox's momentum coming from the N64 era, it's still apparently "popular" enough to get Wolf in Brawl.

This is probably right. Look at F-Zero and Starfox. Is Starfox three times as popular as F-Zero? Not necessarily. It just has more popular characters and viable reps.

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I'm really, really wondering what makes Star Fox and Wolf by extension so "popular" compared to DK or F-Zero. It can't be sales:

Star Fox: 10 million total
F-Zero: estimated 8 million total
Donkey Kong: 50 million total


It can't be media produced:

Star Fox: 5 games, 2 mangas, and a Nintendo Power comic
F-Zero: 6 games, 3 add-ons, 6 soundtracks, a novel, and a 51 episode anime series
Donkey Kong: 25 games, several comics, a 40 episode cartoon series in France for some reason, a documentary, a monster truck, some other stuff I can't be bothered to look up


It can't be general reception (numbers from GameRankings):

F-Zero ------------------- 83% (2 reviews)
F-Zero X ----------------- 86% (16 reviews)
F-Zero Maximum Velocity -- 83% (40 reviews)
F-Zero GX ---------------- 89% (78 reviews)
F-Zero GP Legend --------- 76% (27 reviews)

Star Fox ----------------- 86% (4 reviews)
Star Fox 64 -------------- 90% (15 reviews)
Star Fox Adventures ------ 80% (76 reviews)
Star Fox: Assault -------- 71% (60 reviews)
Star Fox Command --------- 75% (57 reviews)

Donkey Kong Country ------ 90% (8 reviews)
GB Donkey Kong ----------- 84% (6 reviews)
Donkey Kong Country 2 ---- 92% (7 reviews)
Donkey Kong Country 3 ---- 85% (3 reviews)
Donkey Kong 64 ----------- 87% (29 reviews)
Mario vs. Donkey Kong ---- 80% (47 reviews)
Donkey Konga ------------- 81% (56 reviews)
Donkey Kong Jungle Beat -- 82% (55 reviews)
Donkey Konga 2 ----------- 71% (35 reviews)
DK: King of Swing -------- 72% (38 reviews)
Mario vs. Donkey Kong 2 -- 77% (36 reviews)
Donkey Kong Barrel Blast - 45% (32 reviews)
DK: Jungle Climber ------- 76% (35 reviews)
Mario vs. Donkey Kong 3 -- 84% (6 reviews)


And it can't be characters, because all three series have a large recurring cast with a small group of characters that pretty much carry the story and appear in most of the games. And they're all very popular within their own fandoms.

So really, the only thing you're left with is a sort of bias on Sakurai's part. No one can deny his opinion on things except his bosses (and they trust him enough to let him choose by himself). Why would anyone expect him to pay attention to the previously neglected series?

Probably because the series he HAS noticed are pretty much complete. Mario has their main characters. Zelda has theirs plus two variations. They didn't change their rosters (minus Doc). Kirby most definitely has theirs since no one can even think of a newcomer for the series. Star Fox could arguably fit Krystal in, but no one else. Pokemon... well we have our mascot, our token human, and the blob with tenure, other than that I don't know. Same deal for Fire Emblem, since aside from Marth anything is possible.

So that leaves Donkey Kong, Metroid, F-Zero, maybe EarthBound and Wario. All of these series are popular, four of them have been here since 64, and none of them have all their key players (even if it just means adding a single character, like Ridley). Why add characters to completed series when a bunch of them aren't there yet? Why clean an already clean kitchen when the livingroom is still a mess? I don't know how Sakurai's mind works (and neither do you), but I'd like to think he'd take notice this time around.

n88_2004 said:

This is probably right. Look at F-Zero and Starfox. Is Starfox three times as popular as F-Zero? Not necessarily. It just has more popular characters and viable reps.

Also, Special Achievement! This thread hit page 1337!

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SkylerOcon said:

This. Seriously, stop using reps as a reasoning for characters - I used to, but it's really really stupid. I think I just now got that today.

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Pieman, I have to agree with these two guys.

The whole deserving argument is really stupid, Sakurai obviously doesn't give a **** if a character is deserving or not (unless of course they are a completely ridiculous choice, and I mean COMPLETELY ridiculous). Diddy Kong got in, and when Brawl began development what did Donkey Kong have? Donkey Konga? I can't remember but whatever it was it obviously didn't do too well, but still, Diddy somehow got in didn't he?

And there is plenty of room on the roster for a new Donkey Kong rep. So even if they aren't "deserving of one" (****ty argument) they can still get one.

SmashChu said:

And Lucas, Toon Link and Zero Suit Samus. Also, Pikmin came out right before Melee in Japan. It came out after Melee in the western world.

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Lucas was technically "alive" before Melee thanks to Mother 3 on the N64 as I showed in the video the other day and Sakurai's comments following Melee's release, Toon Link is basically Young Link with a different graphic style, and Zero Suit Samus has actually been around since the first Metroid where you could play as her using the "Justin Bailey" code.

@ Toiseofchoice:

Great post because it's something that people have been neglecting since GDC 08, Sakurai's interest is what matters most. If I had to put in order what's probably the most important when it comes to characters, it'd proabably look like this:

1. Sakurai's interest in the character.
2. The moveset prospect of the character.
3. The character's popularity.

These are probably the biggest factors. If I were to detail it further:

interest>moveset>>>popularity