TheZhuKeeper
Smash Champion
ZaHUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
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Match-Up Chart (Outdated); please refer to the new chart.
- Thread starter t3h Icy
- Start date
- Status
Lovage
Smash Hero
yeah why don't u guys talk about something important like marth vs. falcon or falco vs. puff
no one gives a **** about zelda
TheZhuKeeper
Smash Champion
I think Mango should just spend a few days on all the low tiers and he'll probably be able to give more insight than most of the people LOL. Yay Mango riding.
=D
x After Dawn x
Smash Master
*sigh* I couldn't agree with you more.
h!tboxexplo!ter
Smash Ace
its like the two re tards fighting on the playground...
lulz why shouldnt a zelda just do downb vs m2. thats the best move anyways right?
otg
Smash Master
if anything, the fact that she has that option alone makes the matchup like zelda >> m2
xbombr
Smash Ace
Cosmo!
nerf zelda's dsmash
i beg to differ
Dark Hart
Rejected by Azua
Lovage, I'm not sure I can love you anymore... I would main Zelda if she was like mid-tier...
OMFG COMSO I LOVE YOU SO MUCH RIGHT NOW <33333333
V3ctorMan
Smash Champion
Hello! ^^
I understand you're asking for Taj's/Axe's advice on this matchup, but I can GUARANTEE you I know THIS matchup better than Taj does..
Mewtwo < Pikachu
In all honesty, from what I've learned on this matchup, It's not as bad as most players may assess,
-Mewtwo Pros
Sadly, not too many, but if properly used, can put Mewtwo in a comfortable position in this matchup. Easily most notable, Mewtwo's shield > Pikachu's shield. Mewtwo's Nair, Shadowclaws, or even M2's smash moves can put a heavy dent on Pikachu's shield, Nair nullifies Pika's projectile, while maintaining it's effectiveness, which at times gives Pikachu a difficult time to approach safely. Also, with Pika's shield so light, Mewtwo's Nair is ALMOST like a Fail-Safe with some sort of hit, on a blocking Pika. Also, with Mewtwo's large shield, he can take quite a bit of shield pressure as well, with Amazing get away options. Rolling, WDOoS, or even teleporting. Also, with the shield, Pikachu has many moves that put him in danger giving M2, easy shield grabbing opportunities for further combo opportunities. and of course M2's grabs > Pika. ^^
-Mewtwo Cons
Pikachu, outprioritizes everything in the air, minus M2's Nair, also Pikachu can combo Mewtwo much better and kill at much lower % as well. Pikachu will outlast you in a CC scenario as Pikachu's D-tilt has slightly more knockback to the lighter M2 as well, so in terms of setting up for longer duration of combo's M2 definately has a more difficult time establishing damage. Pikachu's projectile is slightly better than Mewtwo's (uncharged obviously) which can meddle with M2's movement options, and with Mewtwo being a large target, many of Pikachu's moves can connect, with some sort of hitbox, giving off some sort of setup for Pikachu to establish. All of Pikachu's smashes have low% kill potential on Mewtwo as the ladder does not for M2.
All of My experience comes from playing Axe's Pikachu, and from what I know (he's a pretty **** good Pikachu player) now, I may not be Taj, but I'm pretty confident that my M2's pretty darn good ^^ and I'm sure Axe/Taj can vouch for me on this if need be. With the experience I have fighting, I'd say 60/40 Pikachu's favor, I hope my post counts for something =p
Well yeah that's my 2 cents. I'll add more if I think of somethin ^^ thanks all ^^
EDIT: Just read the entire debate on the Zelda matchup, I'd agree with Taj, the mindset you'd play Zelda with would be completely different, and patience would be ALOT more valueable, however this also comes to fruition that there haven't been any NEW generation Zelda players, so to that atone, perhaps it cannot be told. I will agree with Taj, saying that once Mewtwo is under Zelda, it's over for Zelda, she doesn't exactly have excellent retreating maneuvers, and Mewtwo's Nair can nearly suffice her, but there haven't been any Zelda players around, so I guess it's hard to tell.. Just giving a vote to the M2 > Zelda
TheManaLord
Smash Hero
Zelda and Mewtwo actually get tournament rep. (p4 even)
So shut up ******s. Learn tournament.
So shut up ******s. Learn tournament.
The Good Doctor
Smash Champion
In a tournament set, I think the current stage list favors Zelda.
I don't see how Mewtwo can run effectively on stages like Yoshi's Story, Fountain, and the PS transformations....
It would also seem Mewtwo has to work twice as hard, and get half the results....
Mewtwo, even on large stages can't run forever, eventually he'll get caught either by a mistake or getting predicted. Unless you guys are going to make a claim that Mewtwo can't be predicted now....
According to you this seems to be a defensive match-up, and I think Zelda is better equipped to handle Mewtwo's approaches and pressure than Mewtwo can simply "run away and shoot shadow balls until Zelda jumps."
What would your other moves be, just Nair out of shield? Zelda with eventually punish it with a kick when you commit to it. You can't say "I won't use it unless I know she's open" People make mistakes and those kicks are fast.
She can also auto-cancel a kick and buffer a ground dodge if she sees you approaching, I realize this won't work that many times but that could lead to a forward smash, which I'm not sure Mewtwo can DI out of b/c of his body size.
TheManaLord
Smash Hero
Icy what lol?
It's right as it is. Nothing on the chart changes with respect to that matchup pls let's move on
It's right as it is. Nothing on the chart changes with respect to that matchup pls let's move on
Pi
Smash Hero
omg i threw up a little
why the **** aren't you using magus' chart style yet?
why the **** aren't you using magus' chart style yet?
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
Please, you just had the first and second best m2 come in here and tell you otherwise. Iori will probably be in here pretty soon to tell you the same thing.
M2>zelda based off the current meta game. m2 doesnt have to work harder, its just not being wreckless, there is no reason a good m2 should lose unless he is making mistakes, they arent forced by zelda, its under his own control.
Good doctor. If you go on the left side of the rock, or in that cave like thing, zelda has to come in from above, no running is necessary.
Your problem is you dont understand how it works, she can keep him out, but not forever. She definitely isnt going to come towards m2. She has to do something, m2 gets in that ***. Its patients for the last ****ing time.
Nair oos is best used after zelda attacks. When she is high up or on her way up. or you can nair though her as she is landing. I wouldnt do anything other than that. Its pure win.
Th3 Icy make that change pimpin.
M2>zelda based off the current meta game. m2 doesnt have to work harder, its just not being wreckless, there is no reason a good m2 should lose unless he is making mistakes, they arent forced by zelda, its under his own control.
Good doctor. If you go on the left side of the rock, or in that cave like thing, zelda has to come in from above, no running is necessary.
Your problem is you dont understand how it works, she can keep him out, but not forever. She definitely isnt going to come towards m2. She has to do something, m2 gets in that ***. Its patients for the last ****ing time.
Nair oos is best used after zelda attacks. When she is high up or on her way up. or you can nair though her as she is landing. I wouldnt do anything other than that. Its pure win.
Th3 Icy make that change pimpin.
xbombr
Smash Ace
Two best M2's opinions say otherwise. People who actually play this match up because they main/secondary the characters at high levels have an infinitely more valid opinion.
Plus, you don't run the chart.
t3h Icy
Smash Master
- Joined
- Jun 12, 2009
- Messages
- 4,917
Pikachu > Mewtwo is already implemented into the chart, but thanks for that V3ct.
Granted, Taj, V3ct and KAO are all going with Mewtwo > Zelda, and I can't really argue that. Unfortunately, there aren't highly recognizable Zelda players (like Axe, HDL or DJN for their respective characters), so I'll have it changed to Mewtwo > Zelda next update. /shields
This is usually where I get flooded with PMs of people flaming me.
Any thoughts on any of the other 649 Match-Ups?
Granted, Taj, V3ct and KAO are all going with Mewtwo > Zelda, and I can't really argue that. Unfortunately, there aren't highly recognizable Zelda players (like Axe, HDL or DJN for their respective characters), so I'll have it changed to Mewtwo > Zelda next update. /shields
This is usually where I get flooded with PMs of people flaming me.
Any thoughts on any of the other 649 Match-Ups?
What don't you like about it? Others seem to have approved it. Plus it's colour-blind friendly, and has numbers, so it's at least universally satisfactory for those reasons.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
You probably shouldn't make that change yet. Get TheLake or Umbreon in here to represent the Zelda side first.
TheManaLord
Smash Hero
v3ct and kao are nobodies. taj's opinion is obviously biased.
fail chart.
fail chart.
xbombr
Smash Ace
Someone want to explain Ganon vs. Jiggs?
I can't see the match up being much more than a spacing battle and Ganon has some really strong aerials that would be great for killing at lower %'s than other characters can. Perhaps even would be more representative of the match up?
Idk, I'm just comparing Ganon to other characters on the list, I don't really know much about the match up.
I can't see the match up being much more than a spacing battle and Ganon has some really strong aerials that would be great for killing at lower %'s than other characters can. Perhaps even would be more representative of the match up?
Idk, I'm just comparing Ganon to other characters on the list, I don't really know much about the match up.
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
Im certain that my knowledge of this matchup is greater than yours.
Your opinion is obviously wrong. Sounds like you are just mad we disagree. And why should anybody take your opinion over tajs?
TML=FAIL
In response to zelda pressing down B.
Sheik >>m2 lol not >>>
TheManaLord
Smash Hero
There is no statistical data on this matchup in tournament whatsoever. There is no observable application of anything you or Taj says. It comes down to basic ****. Do you really not understand that? It's really hard to say you know more than I do about this matchup considering I've played professionals since 2004. Even ones who have mained Mewtwo and Zelda.
Summing a matchup through specific tactics and altercations is impossible, but that's all you, xbombr, v3ct, and even Taj have done.
Summing a matchup through specific tactics and altercations is impossible, but that's all you, xbombr, v3ct, and even Taj have done.
otg
Smash Master
This thread makes laugh sometimes.
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Nah it's definitely slightly in Jiggs Favor. To put it simply...
Once Ganon is off stage he's ****ed. The fight on stage is a spacing battle but one mistake from Ganon and he's dead as well.. rest ftl. What makes Ganon decent vs Jiggs is that he can use his range to his advantage, and also if he lands a grab it's pretty much a garanteed 2nd hit and possible easy death. But then as soon as jiggs gets in..
Once Ganon is off stage he's ****ed. The fight on stage is a spacing battle but one mistake from Ganon and he's dead as well.. rest ftl. What makes Ganon decent vs Jiggs is that he can use his range to his advantage, and also if he lands a grab it's pretty much a garanteed 2nd hit and possible easy death. But then as soon as jiggs gets in..
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
TML
I understand what you are saying. and in most circumstances I would agree.
The thing is, because this match up isnt very dynamic, its very easy to define.
Its pretty much, zelda defends, m2 attacks. There is very little gray area here. This is exactly what happens everytime at high level.
M2 doesnt have good defensive options, zelda doesnt have good offensive options.
Lets put it this way, If sometime we ended up at the same tournament-would you like me to show you how the zelda v m2 matchup is played?
I understand what you are saying. and in most circumstances I would agree.
The thing is, because this match up isnt very dynamic, its very easy to define.
Its pretty much, zelda defends, m2 attacks. There is very little gray area here. This is exactly what happens everytime at high level.
M2 doesnt have good defensive options, zelda doesnt have good offensive options.
Lets put it this way, If sometime we ended up at the same tournament-would you like me to show you how the zelda v m2 matchup is played?
TheManaLord
Smash Hero
Those definitions of the matchup are way too broad and simplistic, it's not as easily defined as that and there is no evidence supporting it.
I'd love to play but it'll never happen. The fact is there are professional Zelda's who could offer input but aren't because they are just as likely lacking Mewtwo experience. The same reason Taj probably simply popped his head in and left.
For the sake of argument, and for some reason since I'm the figurehead on the Zelda>m2 side... I'd call it even for ****s sake because this is so arbitrary now it's just really silly.
I'd love to play but it'll never happen. The fact is there are professional Zelda's who could offer input but aren't because they are just as likely lacking Mewtwo experience. The same reason Taj probably simply popped his head in and left.
For the sake of argument, and for some reason since I'm the figurehead on the Zelda>m2 side... I'd call it even for ****s sake because this is so arbitrary now it's just really silly.
unknown522
Some guy
Incorrect. You beat mango twice. Therefore it's >> in ganon's favor.
joking. I agree with kage if anyone sees this.
crank dat zhu
Dark Hart
Rejected by Azua
This thread is pointless. If you all are going to say 'to hell with low tier match-ups' then **** you all.
TheManaLord
Smash Hero
I'm not. But the arbiter of what is right and wrong is not doing his job good enough. It's not just discussing the matchups, it's gaining sway of the person who makes the chart itself.
Dark Hart
Rejected by Azua
I don't like how teh icy has the final say, since he has his opinion too. We should find some Brawl guy who doesn't care to do it, since he'll has no bias.
Kyu Puff
Smash Champion
t3h Icy: This current format is fine in my opinion (although of course I prefer mine 
).
I'll throw this out there I guess:
ICs > Falcon
).If this happens every time at high level, then find a high level Zelda who agrees with you.
I'll throw this out there I guess:
ICs > Falcon
xbombr
Smash Ace
Ok I was just wondering. It seems like Ganon would one of the few hopes on the tier list to do better against her than most people. Requiring so few hits to kill and having massive range seems like a great asset vs. such a light character. I can see where his recovery and rather large hurtbox for Jiggs to rest would screw him over. Maybe Jiggs really is deserving of top. xD
I also wish people would quit whining about how the chart is run. It wouldn't even exist without Icy.
The Good Doctor
Smash Champion
KAO just assumes Zelda will just stand on the other side of the stage and either get ***** by shadow ball or n-air......t3h Icy: This current format is fine in my opinion (although of course I prefer mine
If this happens every time at high level, then find a high level Zelda who agrees with you.
I'll throw this out there I guess:
ICs > Falcon
I really don't see how he come to these conclusions. I've never played against mewtwo, really at all, but i've played as him and i've played as Zelda extensively. I don't see how Zelda doesn't have the advantage in a best of 3 set....
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Ya but I also got 3 stocked twice by Hbox >_< I mean he did what I was talking about, one mistake, dead.. lol.
Winston
Smash Master
This thread is really long so I don't want to go reading through it, so I'm sorry if this has been addressed, but is there some kind of order you're going in in terms of discussing matchups? Or is it just whatever people feel like talking about at the moment?
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
There is no order because consensus cannot be reached.
Dark Hart
Rejected by Azua
Nurgle for KK
h!tboxexplo!ter
Smash Ace
there no such thing as a non biased person
unknown522
Some guy
I know. I was joking.
But in all seriousness, beat hbox at APEX, if I don't make it that far.
good point. We should have some order.
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